What's up everybody? Lenny white here and I want to welcome you to the iue universe podcast on this podcast. I want to invite you, the listening to join me and my guests as we discuss music, arts, science, some amazing personal journeys and everything in between.
Speaker 2:One of the most original, prolific and influential basis in jazz history, Ron Carter is more than 2100 albums to his credit and accomplishment, honored in the Twenty Fifteen Guinness Book of world records he has recorded with music legends, Miles Davis, Tommy Flanagan, Gil Evans, Lena Horne, Bill Evans. He became the Kronos Quartet, Dexter Gordon West Montgomery, bobby Timmons, Jaki byard, Eric dolphy and Kennedy from 1963 to 1968. Ron was a member of the classic and the claim Miles Davis Quintet. He was named outstanding basis of the decade by the Detroit News jazz basis of the year by downbeat magazine and MVP by the National Academy of Recording Arts and sciences. Ron has earned two grammy awards, one in 1993 for best jazz instrumental group and another in 1998 for call sheet blues from the film round midnight. I sat down with Ron at his home here in New York City just before his 81st birthday to dive deep
Speaker 1:into the mind of a genius and his impact on music history. Everybody. Lenny white here, and uh, it's my special special privilege to introduce to you someone that I affectionately called Gb, which stands for God. They, professor educator just all around. Great Sage. Mr Ron Carter. Thank you. And I paid for the announcement and what's really remarkable, Ron foot for, for me to have known you so long you're going to be how old? 80 one. That's great. That's great. So, um, you know, I don't know where to begin. I mean, you are an icon. You're the most recorded jazz basis of time? Yes.
Speaker 3:In the Guinness Book of World Records. Yeah. Yeah. Um, what was your first recording? Uh, the very first one was with the Eastman Symphony Orchestra. They did a recording harder. Hanson, who is the director of the school at the time in 1959. Wow. A classical recording from mercury. I think my first recording my first New York recording this probably with a teddy Charles who was a violinist who was, uh, doing the production then producing for Bethlehem records. Uh, and uh, that first record was net right, called the greatest singer jazz, a good band. There's a record of three series. That one was a try to press it to jess statesman, which had Roland, Roland and Alexander on Tenor, Freddie Hubbard on trumpet, Ronnie Matthews on piano. Try to pursue. Been me. That was a, of my second record. Nineteen, 19 sixties as amazing as well, just for you to retain. Pretty amazing as it is. So, I mean the number is in to get us a book of records, but how many records have you recorded one in the past? Since January, since, uh, February. Actually I'd done four more. Four more, but like these jazz records, right? Right. And I have a three more in the next couple of weeks. So I think the, Rick, at the end, 2015, it was two. Two, one five is probably a two to six or right about now. Two thousand. Two hundred and 60. And six unbelief. It's icon spaghetti and now you're originally from Detroit, Michigan, Ferndale, Michigan, which is the Brendale missions like Queens and Manhattan. And then my father got a job driving for the bus line called deep Detroit Dsr to troy street railways. And they told him he couldn't have this job unless you moved to Detroit. So when I was a 10 or 11, we moved all eight of us to Detroit. Wow. I certainly an eight interview, eight kids and two parents. So tenants altogether. Wow. Yeah, that's, that's true. All of your siblings still alive? Uh, four of US system alive. Wow. Wow. My mother passed away at the nine. Nine and a half. Ninety nine in[inaudible]. 80 seven 88 western trucking. That's. Wow. And you went to the famed Detroit? Um, I guess it was a high school, but it was like also like a, a junior college, junior college because technically we're treated like that because when I got to college I already had that. Some of that stuff. Wow. That's technical high school. And what are some of the other people that went to cass? I'm a musician. Is that you might know Ira Jackson, the ultimate player champions was at Donald Byrd. Was there, um, some, some great artists who have since left.
Speaker 1:Oh, that ain't too shabby as it is. My wife went to cass tech really after I left the, she was enrolled in the school and it Jerry go there too. Yeah. Jody Allen. Yes. Yeah. Right, right. I see. Right. Because when I did his homework and he's working a part time job and you come in in the morning, so homeroom and he hadn't had the math was never done to her car given to them. I do write fast forward and I did, I was pretty good at that. So we got it done man. That's, that's great. That's great. So Paul Chambers is from Detroit to by way of Pittsburgh. Wow. One in Pittsburgh and Detroit. Yeah, I mean Ron, you are of the true lineage of Jazz Bass. I mean, um, and I, I'm, I'm not sure, is there someone today that would follow in that same lineage that you're a part of?
Speaker 3:I'm not quite sure how you define lineage, but there are a couple of guys who are, whose investigative what I've been trying to do and the cinema tickets from there, wherever there is a k data's one of those kinds of people who was trying to investigate in my efforts, uh, some monument or booth malison a really good bass players.
Speaker 1:Did he play with you? Yeah. Then the two baseband. Right. Right. And, and I also went when I did some gigs that you didn't do at the museum. I played with Moma. Yeah. Yeah. He's a wonderful player. He's investigating
Speaker 3:me for a long time and it's kind of figured out what I'm aiming for and he's another guy who was prepared to, uh, continue my thought process. I had to record this morning from a Brazilian record made in Brazil and the two records actually, and I just finally listened to my and best to send it out loud because I've had it on my desk for three months. They're hiding under the bills and I decided to scrape my willingness when I found a. and a couple of guys who have been out of, call it out the record and of me, but they're really play good, got a nice record. That sound was a nice feeling. So those that come to mind most immediate because I've been in touch with them to my email up, I'm sure that guys out there who have a turn to understand what my process is and what my intent is and, and uh, we're ready to when I say I had enough and I started to work as a boss again, something like that. They're ready to take over, you know. So it's
Speaker 1:very interesting that you did to talk about your, your methodology or wherever as, as a, a process of what it is that you're going for. Because you know, from the first recordings, uh, up until present time, you have a particular identifiable, uh, um, approach and what it is that you do on the instrument. I mean, I've talked with friends and there was an understanding and an acceptance that you are the person when you talk about playing the bass and walking, you are the inventor of the modern jazz baseline.
Speaker 3:This is a podcast, right? So they can't, they cannot think blush, continued blush forthwith. But,
Speaker 1:you know, like all of us, I mean me being a drummer, I'm not, you know, saying I just listened to drums, but you're synonymous with like how to play this modern approach to playing quote unquote jazz music. I mean, like I've heard you talk about your finding the right notes and even in talking with my students at school, I used that analogy to find that, that you should find different notes because you've always come up with some absolutely brilliant and, and mind boggling approaches to certain chords that nobody would think about because of what you play under them, you know. So can you kinda talk about that approach and, and, and what it is that, that you think about it?
Speaker 3:Yes. And expanding the music. I'll make this not sound so complicated because to do that, I really the uh, greenboard and some white chalk, so if I make it sound, I'll make it easy to verbalize, but before that I want that to just clear up some information. I may have led people to hear a island named three, four. Basically it's just now who are interested in my concept and have spent time working on what that is that I do so they could add to their bag of tricks, but the other guys who the standard Clark and John John a jp did, did they understand that I have a process and they're interested in trying to find out what not just what the process is or how it works, but how can they borrow some of this process to blend in with what they hear and fit with their groups, their plan, and so I didn't mean to imply that those, those, my dear friend, is that in not mentioning mentioning them, I'm ignoring their presence in my life and I didn't take it that way. Yeah. That's you and me looking at each other. I can tell you that you understood that, uh, you know, one of the things that I tell bass players is that they're really in charge of the band, but to be in charge of the band, you need more than a good base and a good app. You'd have a sense of list of formula. Tune is a three. It's the Aba. Aba is the 60 bar blues. Where's the bridge? You have to know what the changes as to this tune. And one of the things I'll jump for nothing. One of the things that drama's never understood about 20 Williams said he wanted me to ask. He would ask me, right? The chances of this tune right now said, Tony, why do you want no? They say, I want to know what the forum is. I want to know when you play this note, what, what part of the tunes that don't belong in? He was curious about that kind of thing. He played the same way, you know, he wasn't just loud, it was just assertive because he knew what he was supposed to be in the tool and based on the notes, our play based on the changes that I've written out for him, uh, the third thing you have to have to be as a bass player to be in charge of the band is have a concept on how to build a lie. No, I just don't close my eyes and hope that I'll open them up and see a line across my eyebrows and understand the changes and understand what notes make up this alphabet letter f and my job is to find those other than those spellings, fac didn't effect that. Just the top of the core, but you guys played the horns. But with the drummer plays because my certain notes effect the drums. We played those, what we call noncore tones to the notes are not a part of the FAC spelling. They do two main things. They change the direction of the cord and then make the trumpet player or whoever the Horn player, not there, no two. Here's the following note, is to look before this note to self and the resolve of this note, this old pattern that dictates not just the new chord, but to rhythm where my playing these Milton devices on the downbeat, this on after beat worth is no laying in this constricted four beats to the bar. The other thing that's really important is to have a division of notes in tune because the more you play the most in tune on your instrument to mortar based rings more than what verbiage work because you're insisting that this instrument could talk your tongue's instrument. I believe that this will be long right here on this base and your job is to never hit this note or this group of notes in the same place, nine in night out that you got to ring as much as you can. Now the base that you're looking at, linear, that's in the corner here, a lot of space in New York in 1960 6:59. It's the same base I've used for all those 2000, 260 seconds. Same One. Having said that, the base notes where my hands are on this instrument for 60 years or more and it begins to vibrate this optimum because he's been told earring literally year in and year out and note and note out and decades, a decade that this guy me means that this note or these notes kind of sound what it sounded last night. That's why I skipped pants. I'm in the same place night in the night out. Uh, that allows the base to vibrate more frequently all the time. And when you get that kind of response to the base, it helps you sound even better because it's not vibrating to its optimum. I think one last item, Lenny, is that I have to think of, can my baseline now playing for in any band, what is the impact of these notes to the night? By that I mean if I was desperate and sending those to the first tune of the Gig the first night, can these nodes have such an effect on the band? The default is constructed this lying, this new notes for the rest of the night. And I like to have that impact on the band. You know, I have a, I'm assembling a book of sayings a and I'm on page 16 right now. And one of the things is the first chorus I command, I, I tried to command the attention, the second chorus, those I want to demand their attention. And that depends on how set the first set up. I have to have these guys know that I know this tune. I mean, I like it. It may be free, but I know this song until I don't get paid for it, I still notice to them. But the second chorus, if I found the right set of notes for these guys, whoever they are, and they have their attention, I could tie the base controls the whole night harmonically and rhythmically. That's the best what I do. That's a great point. Thank you. Those are brilliant. Is when you spoke about that and that approach, I thought about one of the records that you made, which although you played on it, you don't get the accolades for really making the song is sugar. Yeah. Sugar, uh, Stanley turnteen because that's basically your blues, but what you did on the turnaround. Yeah, everybody does that. Now, can you explain what the means actually listening to that tune is a study in base because what you played on this remarkable when we're out at Rudy's is I use a little group meeting and the standards always bringing in tune and set the last minute, you know, and uh, when he wrote his blues and it was of and see, you know, and, and, uh, I said, wow, okay. Blues and see, okay. But the turnaround was one, six, two, five as Hispanic. And we found something else to do. They said, can't you find something? I said, okay. Then how about plan the eighth at seven on this right here? He said, hey man, do you mean Stanley? I'm in this Korean. I said, round. You mean this Stanley just closed off three times as a standard stent? I swear a guilty, your honor. Yes. I mean there's no, I mean this cord and a Oh, okay. And it made the record and I made the two really did man, because everybody does that narrative, very kind of, you know, less work stood a flat chord man. Yeah. I mean like, it was really great. Okay. But it's very interesting.
Speaker 1:You started to talk about something and I was going to set up a way to do it, but I. can I just cut to the chase. What's remarkable about your career is that in all of the records that you've made, I mean you've made some very, very iconic iconic records from the standpoint of influential approaches to music. Your tongue tenure with the miles Davis Group. Those are records. I remember talking to you, I said, man, run. You guys wait into rocket science and you said, yeah, I mean like, because you would challenging the musical things. I mean just something simple as what you said that you didn't Stanley turnteen sugar, but I mean like you, Tony Myles, Wayne and Herbie. I mean like for ages, man, that's one of the great bands of all time.
Speaker 3:Um, I'm getting back to this a podcast situation and they can't see me. I continue to bless feverously and with no conscience at all, uh, but again, you know, one, when I do interviews and stuff I can be assured of answering, of being asked three questions. One wasn't liked to play with miles. Uh, too. Did he ever talk to me on the bandstand, you and, and, uh, three that Angelo a band saw or the top to bottom, uh, always kind of treated. Our gigs are concerts and performances as going to a laboratory. That's great. That's great. And, and, uh, miles was a head chemist, right? And he's bringing these various chemical chemicals and their size containers, bottles and glasses and cups and lamb on the table for us. He would explain to us our job for this night is a Nixon mask. These chemicals for the best explosion we could get, you know, uh, sometimes the results were incredible. Sometimes there were less than good, but he didn't, he didn't no longer say experiment. Greg. I think he understood what the process of hit and miss really is a, it wasn't just a hits that were important. It was to Mrs. Right. And can we make these mrs work tomorrow night with a different amount of these ingredients or maybe certain different ingredients in certain proportions. And uh, because we were a unconscionable young people, we said bring it on. Yeah, we were, we were at different lab every night. It must be the title tune tiles and we wore different shoes and that's, we could step over the mess we made. And I thought that the results were interesting. We didn't know what kind of impact these trusted would have until much, much later. And the historians and the technician start to analyze what took place. But he's five years. Uh, but the second thing they asked me that miles ever talked to me, you know, and uh, you know, I was black. He didn't because I never learned talking to play at the same time. The only thing he asked me during the course of our five years on the bandstand we were doing, um, autumn leaves and, uh, the Jews will turn around again, back to that standard turn to an example would be a core I seven going back to the top of the tooth where there's one light I pay to be on the bottom, which makes that coordinate g major seven. And it, at the FDA finished trilon. There's no, because he didn't quite know what to do with it. He walked on the band stand, done her than waiting. So long as I said, it's being natural. Don't ask me again because I couldn't talk and he raised his eyebrows and went back to the back of the stage. Uh, and the third thing about this, did I enjoy it? Uh, I think that one of the highlights of my life just to be, have that kind of close relationship too for the people that didn't depend on anything but my ability to find the right notes and my determination to goes by a sound good every night. That's great. Because what I was going to ask you
Speaker 1:aside from, I mean, you know, him being my drum hero, Tony Williams, I don't really want you to talk about his prowess and but as a person, what I really admired about you too and listening in new your playing is what you just explained. The fact that you guys were experimenting all the time. I think of the classic and most interesting I'm recordings of metric time. Modulation is footprints. I talk about this in all my classes. You playing six and then Tony plane this summer type for on top of it, but you always maintained the six and it was absolutely brilliant because when I first heard it I said, oh wow. They went into a but they wasn't into four, but you're still playing the six. That unabridged and, and goal, right. The nerves to do that is unprocessed. It's great. I mean that, that's actually spawned a whole new genre, a whole new direction in us as young musicians to say, wow, you can actually do that. I mean like, do you hear what they did? And that was really special to us. You know, I think
Speaker 3:one, one of the every band has responsibility as personal doubts to the band, whoever, whatever, you know, this guy's the band librarian, this guy does this, you know? Uh, it seemed to me, my, one of my inputs to the band musically, it was to be the guy who I showed everybody that wherever we are, I know where the tool is supposed to be, right? We may not be there right now, but I will get that with you. I've been to the bridge. I know that personal, which I know that because Tony trusted my sense of where as foreign was, even though he didn't play the foreign per se, this the jumps he heard in his ear because I'm planning for them. Right? And one of the things that mix those cross rhythms work as soon as three responsible for the idea of not moving while this other stuff takes place around the beat. It's, it's this, this determination to make this contrast. We real not imaginary, right? I could have done with Tonia did and it would have been okay, but that I didn't add a whole nother level of tension to beat because I still don't. I'm still doing this man. I'm in this. Some allow. Yes, you can do whatever we got. Here's one. Bam. You know, Tony will often say it's the people who were interviewed him that he couldn't do it. All the things he did one for you. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Personally, because I remember one of the first times I ever played with you live, you play an egg, you played a baseline and then played a backup and I did that with you and you said to me, don't do that.
Speaker 3:Don't do that. If you do it, then don't make it. Makes what I do wrong. No, no, no.
Speaker 1:So I do know that. I understand that, you know, and so I mean, I've heard people affectionately call you checkpoint charlie because of the fact that you are really where the beat is and where the form is. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And I've heard, I've heard you do. I mean, my favorite bass. I remember doing a Gig with you, I won't name the person whose Gig it was, but we were playing and in the span of one piece of this person's music, you played all of your favorite and most famous ones
Speaker 3:and, and the artists didn't know that, but you have an fun because you look at me and you play a baseline. And remember this one, it was great fun of the music world as it is. And this really hard to play this music. Yes, it is. We make it look so easy. You know what cracks me up many is that when I was working at sweet basil rest, the rest of that club sold. The bandstand was between, it was on the real to restrooms and whenever the Bamtech of break people go to the restrooms and stuff and some would invariably go by the drums or the piano because you guys make it look so easy. I can do that too. And it always amazes me that they didn't understand how complex what we do is because of the ease with which we before, right? You know, and uh, I said that he can play because when he said no, he didn't have a chance, man hired that sit down next admired, I admired that they think I admire that, that we do with so much ease and grace that do understand how hard it is to do what we do and how to look and sound like that. Right. That cracks me up, man. It's, it's really, if he only knew what I'm going through now, aside from, from,
Speaker 1:from the miles Davis band, which was extremely influential, you've made some real great blue note records. Yeah, I mean, speak no evil. I mean Elvin Jones is one of my all time favorite drum mentors, but on speak, no evil. You made Elvin play a different way. I mean because I had heard him play with Jimmy Garrison and, and, and other people and you know, but there was a sophistication of how you play baselines on that record and how Elvin match that sophistication, which was remarkable. It was great. I mean, he changed up but he changed up because he was playing with you. Yeah, I guess, uh, uh, again, fortunately, yeah,
Speaker 3:that there is no visual here, but I'm blushing again unabashedly that then comes back to the elephant. One of them was a mccoy tyner record.
Speaker 1:Go ahead and read Mccoy. Yeah, yeah. That is passion dance. Yeah man, that's killing renderman and uh,
Speaker 3:you know, I'm, you know, when it went out, when I do talks and in the interview in an audience, I try to fix someone in the audience who I think has my complete attention and always announced this press. Okay, now ladies and gentlemen, we're going to do this talk and I'm really kind of shy, especially at my age, in my age category and I need someone to help me out with this talk now a point to someone, whoever that is and say no. Every time I want to say the word I, I really can't say that word sap went to you. Your job is to say I'm not planning to. You can. Having said that, uh, we have an, have an assistant here in the studios, so I'm going to plant the yield Mr. Assistant. But I want to say I, you'd have to say it's the Chris Boggio, uh, at one of the things learn how to hear what the drummer's needs are. I understand that if a German has a thing that sets up everything else that they do, I have been able to kind of analyze this too in the course of the first tune a cell and my job is then to make what I think is going to work with this surrounding drums and bass. So that it sounds like. And now playing drums and bass.
Speaker 1:Right. That's a great point. Yeah, that's a great point. I've learned something. I mean, we won't go into our classic thing what happened on the red clay because you've actually actually put that in your book. Yes, sharing at all. But I did learn about tuning this critical from a man, but I do understand that and I could understand why it should be because if a drama does his drums, especially the bass drum to a frequency that stays out of the base range, then you don't hear any base. Can't. My generation, my heroes, the heroes that we had as musicians, definitely they were musicians, they were master musicians and aside from being meshed musicians, there's another level above that which is conceptualists because what you've done is you've taken the music redefined, it included concept to the point where like, you know, you say, well, wow, you talk about miles being an alchemist and given you guys different things to challenge every night. That's what we grew up. We grew up listening to that and so today there are no conceptualist like that. So how do we get the young musicians to live to at least think like you guys thought.
Speaker 2:I think the first thing you'd have to do is really seriously and listen to somebody else. I think they may say, yeah, I heard this, but they didn't really hear it, right? Yeah. And, and the dual back to this, a chemist in the lab, a laboratory analysis like to use if they, the young people of today, this certain bunch of people we put in the room have not listened to this music. And can you envision a bandleader given this band 25 different chemicals, chemical to b flat seven, a flat donnelly and Tony, he's got plenty of targets for God because mixing music at least elements and have all those elements with not too many wrong experience. This is the solution. No, what you're telling me you knew band leader is that you don't need that kind of information. You put together. Same for guys, for this funnel guys and you give them your music just based on your limited knowledge and not much study of how to compose or how they arrange your testing, your town to be all in or all encompassing and you give them these guys who were directly following you somewhere and you tell them, you expect them to help you find the direction when you're unable to give them a direction and so they're and are too shy and in as a as inexpensive as you are struck out on their own and say, hey man, let's try this because they have no experience and being forced to do that. If they could find himself in this library, in this laboratory and just step inside this timeframe and watch that band of 60 miles ban, watch us use these chemicals around and see what chances we took. All that been successful experiments are not always accessible. The ones that work was one, the guy found out how many mistakes and when we found the right combination, we did a reset. Every course has some new element that we discovered in the corner under some dust justice, Lou, purple, purple. What does that man, let's try this color. That kind of stuff. He you think to safe today, they'll not be safe. They just know how the father has gotten anywhere. Right? Right. That's a good point and I think they need to understand that the two big things, one, understand how that music was made and all that they could make it took to make footprint sound like footprints and to understand that this really wonderful tunes that they didn't write. These wonderful tools are based on a nice melody, a nice set of changes, a nice form, a great intent, all of snack bag. We all play everybody else's music. We didn't just play Wayne shorter songbook of her, the Hancock songbook on my son, but we played a library of songs. Right. I think one of the, one of the problems I'm looking at when I hear these schools play that they have no sense of library because they don't a lot. A lot of the artists today don't let other people write dear friend or taking other songs and maybe arrange them. Yeah. That they've been told by the manager or agent that, that you write your own software, you get more money from the publishing and said, wait a minute, man, to the problem with that ideas are only European, that tune and therefore no one's going to record it. So we'll kinda wrote, are you talking about man that's coming up because it's getting cold out again. Um, the other thing, lenny, is that those kids I come, kids didn't go out to hear other people of my generation. That's right. That's right. One hundred percent correct. And I tell my students to come here and play, not just him, he play. I mean, that's, that's what I do, man. I went them to see how I use when we talk about for an hour a week, then this is how I'm using. Definitely some giving you jacqueline, is Mr dishes the musical application of what it is. Absolutely. You got to see that. Yeah. The Guy, the response that that gets it didn't just start with this letter a, it's what happens when I play a two and these guys around and say, Oh man, that's a two. You got to understand that they got a field what pleasure that is to make that happen. Right. But they can't get that done if they stay home and play in the kitchen all the time with their own stuff. Not a chance, man. Let's talk a little bit about CTI. Okay. What was actually you just did you say that you just spoke less dots the best after 20 years? Man, I was stunned. I had talked to him up and, and uh, what a, what a joy it was to hear him say, Hey Ron, you still playing to the base. It was great because I am. I'm trying to, you know, those that don't know. Dancer Besky was probably the primary arranger on mostly all of those cts. Greg West who were lost. What was the first CTI records you did A. Oh man, phew. I was at Freddie Hubbard a habits first light red clay was they played. That was the first night it was before then. Uh, I can't remember. Have to look at my catalog, my book somewhere. But as it turned out, and I found out this information by being in the back of somebody's record or something like that, and that in the formation of the CTI days, a creed, Taylor decided that, uh, would be one that one of the mainstays of this, this label and theft that meant that would be on all the records and that he could come on my presence because last year the Lynch pin of policy at CTI recordings, you know, this is, this is one of the real great reasons why you have become the icon when it comes to base because you are on almost everybody's recording. Well, you know, um, aside from you playing great again, fortunately the, I honestly cannot see me, uh, to my, uh, my impression nation of being an and embarrassingly pink, but I'm in that zone right now. Uh, but having had an expressed that shyness, again, I'm had to learn how to accept being good. That's a very important point because a lot of young musicians can hit you. Can you, can, you can imagine that, you know, my, my background, as you probably know, you, you're listening. This hopefully had been familiar with some of the, some of my bio information to, to be given that mantle and the responsibility that's placed on my shoulders to be able to accommodate all these fantastic musicians. There's no rehearsal, no ambulate to the song selection. I just walk into the studio and presenting a presence that makes everyone stopped fooling around and say, well, Ron Carter, let's get this party started. I've been on some sessions with you, man. It was bad to know that, that, uh, have that had been given a calling, but that had earned that calling because of my ability and my presence and I'm trying to pick the stuff to mix that unnecessary role for me to fill it. I haven't gotten over it yet. I think the humility that you show'em is honest, but the fact of the matter is that you rose to the occasion. You will given that opportunity and you roasted vacation and you expect so many times that it was a given. It was the, this was supposed to happen. If you want it to make a great recording, you had to call Ron Carter. Oh, that's what the, that was the word that, uh, the, the three words that come attached to my feeling about having that, that, that mental macquarie is a Gig. God is good. Right? But now, okay, I want to try this with you. There are two iconic records where you played the same song and two different approaches, which both completely brilliant. The original, one of my favorite baselines of all time is the original baseline that you played on every Harrison's of the original cup. A composer of freedom jazz. Yes. Yeah. What? Because you didn't play on one, it was so slick how you did that and how over it went over the bar lines and you know, it's it for those that don't know that their original baseline when they get a chance to listen to it now in here. That like how you juxtapose with them. One was absolutely brilliant. It was great. Well, you know, that was an easy concept to on because Billy Higgins was so dependable. Oh, he was. So he was the. He was dependable. He was the right. Yeah. You were experimented and see that was planning the same background. Right, right. I was the only one who was free to do something other than this prescribing first cars background. Right. And I knew that if I didn't play one, no one got upset because they knew I knew where it was. I just didn't play it right there. So they had to have confidence in my ability to step outside the box, even though I am the box and I can go back anytime I pleased and I met right, whatever, right where I belong in this, in this, a rhythm fluctuation from Berlin, the Berlin, and he listened to CD's playing. He's not doing much different than what you did during the course of the first quarter or the fourth pretend right. Covington. He's been the same kind of background. And, and billy, it's just, you know, just swing it. It's up to me. I thought to make, make a wave. That was brilliant. Now we go a few years later to diversion that you did with the miles Davis Quintet could, that's the difference is really easy to describe because hurt is playing more freely. Twenty Williams is not planning to Billy Higgins, Billy Higgins sound and Herbie and Tony Myles and waiting and waiting for us to make it happen. It's a completely different era. And uh, the trouble I had with I was still a hearing Eddie Harris and Billy Higgins and there was difficult to turn that stuff off. And yet, part of this man that work that, that, that need to maintain the integrity of the tune Kennis for right there, because that melody is what makes that melted, mix that to work as well as the temple. We play that at. My job then is to be able to get out this box and maintain even more so the integrity of this really basic tune that's waiting for somebody to fix it on my job to try to fix it, but repaired for the tune is over. That's really classic. I mean, and, and um, I, you know, it, it's, it's a simple question and they probably, you get asked this all the time, but you've been on so many recordings. Can you name some of your favorites? You know, I Kinda, I never answered that only because if, uh, if a name on this three or four understood that, that implies that the other 2000,$264, or whether it was not worth my while or they were not fun or they were not in my top five category and I was the most interesting. They all admit because they're all required to mindset, uh, for Freddie Hubbard and have to maintain the free at, to be kind of like the grandfather. I can't let him throw around too long because otherwise he's going to lose the zones. That kind of, that kind of stuff. Oh, you helped me out. Well, that's Johansen. He never had enough. Music is always shorter to in the cell man. Yeah. So he was saying Iran, Iran, I got to say that you'll have a song that might work here. Let me hear it. I get into tune and he said that's where this recording, that kind of stuff. So each day we had different requirement of me to help fulfill this artist project and I call it going to school. I went to school with freedom and for 2000, 226 classes, man I got paid to go to school with these guys. They all offer something specific really differently. I did a record with Tony Williams, our farm and the saxophone player. Bill Evans called etudes. I'm on this record. Wayne was supposed to make the date, but when that last minute decided because it wasn't available, so ruth landlord rest his soul to Mexico and Bill Evans to out to get the textbook is okay. I don't know. I know it's music by him. I don't know him. So I called him up and said, Bill, I got this date with our family, Tony Williams and the smes. We need a rehearsal, so make sure I got it right. He said, okay, go to rehearsal starts at Carol's, you know, and the defer to kind of. Because Tony's, Tony's Burson seldom vigorously. He's at this rehearsal. No. And, and uh, we kinda just milling around trying to make some decisions and I'm watching watching the weather where the buttons are going to fall, who's hands? So it's on my end. Okay. So we started the first tune and, and uh, I said, Bill, you got to wait a minute. And he says, said, what's happening? So you, you're planning 20 notes, can you just, just, just kind of helped the band, you know? Yeah, man, no one helps. Yeah. Okay. Well, I'm not going to now see it goes again and there's still a little active for what I'm trying to help the band do. Sicilian art. Can you do the first chorus here and this is just a simple blues. Excellent. And the art place or was for the first eight measures are players made eight notes to bill that he didn't feel embarrassed because I appreciate the arts artistry because he did the notes. Robin, that's a great choice man. Right? Of all the choices he did that he did it not to show people how to do it the way it plays. Right. You know, and toy was cracking up because he's. He heard what was happening. You heard me trying to give us some space, me and him that he wouldn't allow us to have it. He kept planning multimillion. Right. And for me, I thought Greg, because I understood arts playing and I loved him and I thought that for me to have art demonstrate a way to play the simple tune was a very intellectual eight notes. It's tribute to hospital respect his ability to do that because I played all the time. Right. You know, that's a. So how do you feel about academia when it comes to
Speaker 1:your music? Meaning that the music that you've been.
Speaker 2:I think I think schools are necessary. I'm not one of the guys who feels that you go to school, you hurt your soul or spirit or you know, I think one day if I could get most of these young players to stay composition for a semester, to understand how it's supposed to work, how it can work, how thousands of compulsion to have breakfast, have broken those rules to make their music based on these broken rules. In fact, get them the tenant, the theory class to understand to every core can be assessed court and maintain the integrity of the melody. If I could get them all to go to a race in class to understand how the bass note affects the nine, knows the voice above this bass. Note that stand, that possibility. If I could get them to go youth coming to me at the club as a class, take a c in this class, how this music evolved for one hour. Good point. That's necessary. That's kind of education at eight and I'm all for that. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Let's talk a little bit about your book. Okay. Now you're getting ready to have an audio version. Yes. The book. Yes. The name of the book is finding the right notes. Right. And so it, it was released four years ago. Right.
Speaker 2:And uh, this is, uh, in the physical, but if it's a fourth printing because. Yeah. And a audio book we hope to have ready by first week of May. Uh, and, and uh, I did a reading.
Speaker 1:Oh, so that, that's really important to have an audio book. They have at least someone who sounds like they did, but the actual have the agriculture poser and in true voice and not just that,
Speaker 2:there's about a 45 second introduction to music teach chapter. Wow, that's great. And it ended with a complete song at the end of the book. That's great. Yes. I'm looking forward to getting it done. Hopefully by the first week of May I have some copies of the old with the sale and I'm curious to see how many we sell the first night.
Speaker 1:But I mean, uh, just an overall topic of some of the things you talked about in your book.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Uh, one that's one of the bass player. No one is in my relationship with miles. Uh, one is the CTI experiences. Oh, one is some, uh, hurtful experiences with the society rules of comportment. No. Yes. Great stories in there from people who are my fans and friends and students out the years who have a different view of me as the, the outside. And I think people would mention, you know, how they feel about me, you know, and uh, since I'm not in talking about me, that kind of gets me off the hook. Them turning pink all the time. Well, I think we've covered a lot of topics. Yes, we have. And I thank you for the time you spend to do this, you know, um, I've had this option before and I've always kind of said no because I didn't know the person and I didn't know if they'd done any homework and when they'd ask me questions that I could learn from, from my answers, you know, and you've given me a chance to, with Chris had help here, uh, not to get embarrassed and my blushing and it shows me some things that I have thought about but never verbalized. Thank you Ron. I O you. Oh okay. We'll figure something out. Me. Thank you. Bye. Hey everybody, lenny white here again and thanks for listening. Stay tuned all summer for new podcasts coming from the university. For more information, visit our website at[inaudible] dot com. And that's spelled I y o u w.com. See you next time.