Shooting Color with Ellen Mirck

How did a Dutch fashion stylist end up in the Milan and how does she mix her northern upbringing and style with the Italian? Ellen tells her story through her styling work around the world using color, fabric and texture to create luxurious yet cool stylings. She loves mystery which can clearly be seen through her work for Vogue Arabia. Ellen explains what intrigues her so much about fashion and how color fits into that world. 

Ellen Mirck is a Dutch Fashion Stylist and sustainable editor based in Milan. She does fashion styling,  art direction and brand consultancy. She is contributing editor of Vogue Arabia and also collaborates with magazines such as Vogue Brazil, Lampoon, Numerò Netherlands, Tank and Cap74094. 

Her clients are Burberry, Max Mara, Hogan, Pomellato, Moncler, Ermenegildo Zegna, Fay, Tommy Hilfiger, Bvlgari, Converse, Benetton, Tod's, Bally, Palm Angels and many more.
Ellen used to live in London and work for Alexander McQueen and Hermès. She studied Economy in the Netherlands and graduated Cum Laude in Fashion Styling at Marangoni Milan. In her work she instinctively pairs the clean, graphic lines from Northern Europe with the warmth and a certain dramatic flair found in the South. She finds the precious in the details with interesting, nature- inspired textures. As a Stylist and Art Director, she'd say she more of a storyteller, really getting into the mind of the client to translate their vision and vivid imagination that might be slumbering underneath the surface. Ellen enjoys clothes, the beauty of them, but also believes in wearing your values.

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Transcript

Judith van Vliet: Good afternoon, everyone, and welcome back to the Color Authority. Today I'm going to be interviewing a dear friend of mine, Ellen Mirck, who is a Dutch fashion stylist and sustainable editor based in Milan. She does fashion style writing, art direction, and brand consultancy. She's contributing editor of Vogue Arabia, but also works with magazines such as Vogue, Brazil, Lampoon, Numerous, Netherlands, and Tank. She has multiple fashion clients such as Burbury, MaxMara Hogan, Zamia, Tony Hilfiger, Bvlgari. The list is very, very long. She used to work for Alexander McQueen in London. And Hermes. She studied economy in the Netherlands and graduated cum laude in fashion styling at Maragoni here in Milan. In her work, she instinctively pairs the clean graphic lines from the Northern Europe with the warm and a certain dramatic flair from the south. She finds the pressures in the details with interesting nature inspired textures. As a stylist and art director, she says she's more of a storyteller. So let's go listen to what she has to tell. Good afternoon, Ellen. How are you? And welcome to the Color Authority.

Ellen Mirck: Thank you so much. I'm really well. Thank you for having me.

Judith van Vliet: Yes, I'm excited that we reconnected for those of the people that actually don't know you and don't know how we actually met. We are two Dutchies living in Milan, and we met, I think, through the football games, obviously.

Ellen Mirck: Yeah. In the embassy, but also in the airplane. Do you remember?

Judith van Vliet: In the airplane, yes. Celebrate Christmas together. But she's in Milan, both working in design, both working in creative worlds. And that's why I wanted to interview, like, hey, I have a friend that actually does something super interesting as fashion stylist.

Ellen Mirck: Thank you.

Judith van Vliet: So I start all my podcasts with the same question, and I think you know that by now, and that is, what is color for you? So, Ellen, what does color mean to you?

Ellen Mirck: Well, I think everything. Color, I think, brings brightness and happiness and makes products, I think, alive. With my work, I'm super focused on colors and shapes. Personally, I like a lot like deep colors, not like mixed colors that are maybe a little bit more mysterious. But I think color is emotion, and my work is all about emotion and about telling a story. And color helps very much in telling a story and connect to communicating feelings.

Judith van Vliet: So everything, I think I have everything I need when I listen to all the answers that I've had, it very often is color is life, and color is everything because it is everything. And you just indeed said you're a storyteller. You're a very strong storyteller. People that will follow you on Instagram, they will be able to see or go to your website. We're both storytellers. I translate into color directly, but you have a step in between, which is obviously indirectly. This is fashion. Can you reveal how you build your stories? And also how do you use color in the stories?

Ellen Mirck: That's an interesting question. Well, I always start with the mood board and it really depends of course for the client that I'm working for, like as a starter I work a lot for magazines but also for brands. So I do a lot of editorials for magazines and those are all about inspiration their readers for the new season, about telling the story, about what's going on in the moment but also about what they should buy or in an inspirational way and then you have of course the clients and they are more likely to what they would like to communicate for that season. So I have to understand that their collections and stuff like that and what is really important for me is the story is that it has like one duke has something to do with another look so that you are communicating something with value and I use the mood boards a lot. So I paste a lot of images together and to create a mood board to have like a storyline. Let's say like we are starting with this and then we are going to that and color of course can help to build up the story and also make sure that one image is connected with another image. So I think every page and every look on its own is like super important but it's also very much, I think all the blue species together create even a stronger story. So first of all, I also noticed that a lot of editorials were like always with a lot of pictures and those together were telling the story. Nowadays everybody is really instant so also the picture on its own should tell their own story. But still I think everything together is making a stronger story and I think color is very much helping to connect all those loose images and all the loose single pieces that you are wearing together. And also for my commercial clients it's the same. Like I do a lot of campaigns, people also need nowadays a lot of content more than before because they have a lot more output on Instagram, social media, other social media channels where we only had a few pictures of season like for a campaign. But nowadays people need like one outcome every day also on different kinds of channels. So the same picture should work for like I also work for commercial clients like Philips, I don't know if I can mention their names here but yeah, first of all, we already did like video content but now they also need a lot of social media content. So the same loop is interpreted in different ways. So it's for the TikTok audience which has the same look younger than it's for the YouTube and it's for the Facebook. So all the different channels you just update the colors, the looks according to the audience. Let's stay like that.

Judith van Vliet: So when you work with your clients, obviously you have a look and the look also means there's more than one color that is representing that look. So if somebody will look at, let's say, Ferragamo you've done a campaign. The color look, however, is the same, right? All over those social media platforms, you still get the same feel in the same color feel.

Ellen Mirck: Yes, exactly. So that you can also separate the collections better. And a lot of brands now also have mini campaigns within the season. And of course, the color of the clothes. And also not only color of the clothes on Instagram, but also the color of the frames. Maybe that people are using help to also separate and to explain what the collection is about and it will make everything more clear to the viewer. Because what I say on Instagram and stuff like that, they counts a lot the single images and they have to be strong and really direct. And I think with color you can get a lot of attention right away and also make sure for people to understand that this is something else. We are starting a new campaign, but you see a lot also, like with, for example, Balenciaga, nowadays they cancel their whole Instagram account according to every season. Not everybody is doing that. But then, of course, the color can also help to explain if we are in summer, in winter, if we have kind of Christmas campaign or if we are in the sales, maybe it's pretty.

Judith van Vliet: Clean to have like a new start of something that's new, colorful and also a new color.

Ellen Mirck: Yeah. And a lot of brands in fashion, they make color nowadays because you have the fuchsia, Valentino, you have the Bottega Green. So brands start to get to know by a certain color and then they are famous for that color, which I think is super interesting too. It is, yeah.

Judith van Vliet: I mean, we all know, obviously with your orange, one of the things, if you only look at that orange, you'll recognize immediately Hermes then you have Tiffany, obviously with their color. But it's interesting that more brands are doing this, right? They're all getting into a color field and they're considering it like their color field.

Ellen Mirck: Exactly. And yeah, people start to recognize them more easy and that, I think, can be super important for them to be in the moment.

Judith van Vliet: It's a strong message. You obviously Dutch, I think people can they understood from by now. So you are coming from the north of Europe, just like yourself. So, as you say, you bring the clean, graphic, rigidness, as you say, from the north and you combine it with the flair and the warmth in the south. How different do you really feel that the style from the north and the south are different?

Ellen Mirck: Well, I think in the north everything is more practical in general, maybe because of the weather, I don't know. They like a bit less bling bling and everything should have I think also the insurance times should have more, like, kind of a function. And if those they should fit well, they should be comfortable. Yeah. And I think in the south, in Europe and also in Italy, where we are right now, I think people really care about the quality more of the clothes. I remember that my mother always tells me I've loved it so much that all the men in Italy, they look where the clothes are actually made from. In the Netherlands, it's a little bit less important. But I like both. I like the sense of clothes maybe more and also the graphic lines that you see more in the north. But also I like very much a little bit more drama in the clothes. So, like a beautiful fabric. Nice. I always call it, like, nice hardware. So nice zippers, maybe some nice earrings and nice necklace to make it a little bit more excited, I would say. Yeah. I think the combination for me, that's super important.

Judith van Vliet: Also just giving some background to those people who have never been to the Netherlands if you are obviously living in the Netherlands and it's raining, but also you're getting on your bicycle to because that's what we do. We go out on a bicycle to do grocery shopping for those to have a drink, to go to dinner, some dresses and skirts. And it just won't work. It's a different way of how obviously people are traveling and how they're generally just where they're going. But it's intriguing how you see that. Do you feel also the color is different? So in the north, there's a different color feel than to the south of Europe?

Ellen Mirck: Yeah, I think yes, there's a bit less color. First of all, I think in the north, right? Yeah, in the north, and I think the south, people are also a bit more extravagant in general. So also with color. And especially, I think, in the Netherlands, they are still kind of colorful and experimental. Like more in London, I would say, the street, where it's really big difference. I always have a lot when we are shooting and then in the Netherlands, we got the picture when everybody says cool. And in Italy, we got a picture when everybody says beautiful. So that's like a super difference. But I think in Denmark, Sweden. Norway. You have less color. And it's really much focused on quality, like mid level quality and bit more gray blue, and they are green. And I think the Nano people can be bit more colorful. They like a lot also painted stuff, also in a bit more in London, I would say, like that. But the quality is a bit less and everybody's more focused on coolness, being cool. And in Italy, I think people take more care to build up perfect outfits. They take more time for that. Everything can cost a little bit more. Maybe they're less or they're more luxurious. So that's cool, maybe. But of course there are exceptions everywhere, but they really care about the quality and about having everything perfectly matched together. And that, of course, takes a lot more time. The colors, I think, in Italy also depends where you are because of course, Milan is more like kind of a busy city. So maybe they are a little bit less colors. In the south of Italy, I think it's super colorful, and I think our people are also working very much into shades of colors, per looks, so they have maybe more like a green look, and they make it perfectly well. And then they have kind of like a purplish look, and it's all very much connected. And I think that's super interesting. Also, they really care about jewellery, about having all the right necklaces together, not just one piece of necklace, but maybe like a whole nice collage of things. And they are really much more into heritage pieces. I think that in the Netherlands, so they may be inherited back from their mother, like a nice hair mess. So also in an interior designer, that's a lot in Italy.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah, that's true. Talking about luxury, you mentioned the word luxury before, and when I hear the word luxury, I automatically also think about the Middle East. And that's where you lately started working, because you're now a contributing editor of Volcanoes. Can you explain how you work with the magazines or what it is that you're doing and also how that, again, style and color wise is possibly different?

Ellen Mirck: Yeah, I'm now one of the contributors of Royal Caribbean, and I do a lot of main fashion stories for them. I also shot coffers for them. And it depends, of course, on the season, what they want me to do. But most of the time they also give me a lot of freedom. And I can come up with the team, with the mood, but also with the team, with the people I want to work with, what kind of photographer, what kind of location. I have a lot of freedom, but of course it's very much connected to their market. And I think I also work for other volcanic issues, and it's a really special one because they are representing a lot of different countries and with religion also interpreted in different ways. So that is what I really have to work around. Some people are field, some people not. They have a lot of different kinds of clothing rules, and it really depends on the model that we choose on basis of what I can shop for them. But they do like a lot of mystery in general, which I also personally love a lot. We always make crazy pieces. They are also pretty much into investing. They want to invest. They want beautiful stuff. They love jewellery. They love colors, they love fabrics. I also love fabrics myself. They like a lot of fabrics. They like layers, so a lot of styling mixed together and yeah, we are always trying also color wise to create deep color moods like beautiful foxes, purple, a lot of mixed colors. Also together we just did a sustainable fashion story, the first one which I'm really proud about. So we work with a lot of brands all over Europe that do upcycling recycling, that work with build degradable materials, like all different kind of techniques. And I mix those pieces together and I really wanted to show the quality of the designers like that they are working to the highest level because when we think about sustainability, we think also a lot about green, yellow, orange, that kind of vintage colors. But these designers are also working with 3D printing. They can do whatever colors that you want. And also technique wise, they just make crazy pieces. We had like horses made of all sporting shoes, for example. We had like headpieces and made of old pandanas, like a dress with all zippers in the colors. In the colors, yes. So that was amazing, amazing to do. But I also did jewelry stories for them. We did a crazy cover last October also with a lot of really graphic pieces, silver, gold. It was all about new beginning. And I would love to do also 3D fashion story for them or for other magazines that I'm also collaborating with. So I'm also lately very much into making the world a little bit better. And first of all, I thought I always had to do it without fashion, but lately I really feel I can do it also within fashion. I feel the people are ready for it. It's not always easy, especially the young designers. They are already very much focused on being sustainable. But maybe the more established brands, for them, it's a little bit more changed. But on the other hand, they're also very much into quality. But people are also looking for but yeah, color in bulk Arabia is super important and of course they cover their body a lot. So the fabrics are super important and they communicate with color and with fabrics having the nice materials. And I think you know that better than me. But I think if you adjust color to certain materials, then the impact of color is also very much different.

Judith van Vliet: Right, but that's also interesting because you said that they work with layers. Interesting because when you work with different materials, but that may be used as tongue, it's actually very interesting to see the changes in those colors create beautiful layers.

Ellen Mirck: Yes, I completely agree. I also love to work with mono color loops, but then in different materials, like you say, I think that makes it really exciting. Even if you have like a total black loop, but then you use latex or leather, all different kinds of materials together and super interesting.

Judith van Vliet: For example, monochromatic. I'm seeing monochromatic coming back a little bit. Do you see? Generally, fashion color has changed over, let's say the last ten years to now. Do you think color is being applied differently or is it being applied more or maybe with less rules? I feel there's more freedom in the user.

Ellen Mirck: Yeah, that's for sure. I feel that nowadays it's a bit old or nothing, or people really go color or maybe not at all. There's also, I think, now a trend, the cargo and the war. And I just have, for example, the latest Bottega Veneta. They're really going back more fence. It's more easy, more simple. But then, on the other hand, there's, like, brands that use a lot of color now. Like Valentino. This winter was like all colors. What you say people can choose. They can choose themselves. And it's not so many rules anymore. Like, before you have to do this or otherwise it's in is out. I think there's different styles. Yeah, some styles. Colors are represented all over. So I think it's super interesting, all the colors that are now on the runway.

Judith van Vliet: We often talk about color, obviously, in all these years that we've known each other, which I think is I was just calculating. I think it's been almost 13 years that we know each other.

Ellen Mirck: Oh, my God.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah. That's giving away our age.

Ellen Mirck: Totally.

Judith van Vliet: But it's interesting that since the moment I've met you, I wasn't working in color and you were in color, working in fashion. What keeps you passionate about this? What keeps you going? Like, what really clicks?

Ellen Mirck: Yes. Telling a story. I have so many stories to tell and so many things. I mean, I did a lot of stuff. I'm also proud of a lot of things that I do. But I feel there's always something more still reaching. Maybe that way I never satisfied, but lately I really feel the industry and my world is changing all the time, so I never feel bored or tired. I work a lot, but it gives me also a lot of energy because you are always working with new things, new trends. And the only thing that I felt lately is like, I don't want to do another shooting anymore because there is already a lot. So I want to really create contact with meaning. Maybe since I'm a mother, I always feel maybe I feel more than the need of making something that can actually influence people, that really can change something for people. And I tried to make more for magazines, extreme stories. So, first of all, magazines were more like I think Instagram is taking a little bit of role. You have to buy this, and you don't have to buy this. And this season is this. And nowadays, it's more like almost inspirational books that you put on the table that you can dream away because there's already so much content on Instagram that you can easily have access to. So I think magazines should be more like an inspirational book that would it.

Judith van Vliet: Almost like a mood board, but then with yeah, exactly.

Ellen Mirck: And of course there are a lot of different magazines people like more commercial magazines and more for the industry magazines but yeah, still inspiring me this world. Yeah. I think now I also like to do maybe more master classes I just started my YouTube channel that I have to give more attention to but I love it so much and I love to teach also to other girls I have also two assistants here that I'm super happy to learn them all the tricks from the field and first of all. Before I was only with my own career now I feel like it's so nice that I have this knowledge and that they can also share it with other people so it feels really satisfying for me yeah.

Judith van Vliet: I totally get that. That's why I got this podcast and that's why I'm also teaching in the school and the university to give people more knowledge about what you do in the end, sharing is knowledge.

Ellen Mirck: Exactly.

Judith van Vliet: When do you have here we were just talking before we went live, we were talking about creative bursts I had my creative burst over the weekend when do you have yours? When do you get inspired? What really inspires you? Of course your industry but sometimes it can be any moment, right?

Ellen Mirck: I think both for me personally and there's also work wise but of course I have Fashion Week. I always follow the magazines every month but also when I walk in the city when I see people. What they are doing. What they're wearing but it's also. I think also general stuff like about the news. What is going on in the world I think the fashion industry is also responding very much to that and my kids. They also inspire me a lot because I think the kids industry for fashion is super interesting because of course people always want the best for their kids and they are so creative and they are completely without any rules and a lot of the clothes that their kids brands are super sustainable which I think is also very interesting and they also do a lot about I think it's really funny that a lot of kids read they have labels in the pieces where they are written a lot of names so from one kit you can give it to another kid of course they change a lot of sizes but I think that's very interesting so I think the best kids brands are brands that are not for adults but there are some super nice ones and they use a lot of colors yeah so that is inspiring me a lot lately yeah.

Judith van Vliet: It's a mix of many things indeed. So you've been working for so many years in fashion. Is there, let's say, a certain signature in your style? I know your signature but it's easier.

Ellen Mirck: For you I have to say that a lot of luxury brands like myself, I always say that I'm kind of chic and cool. So I also work a lot for Jordi brands like Bvulgari, Pomellato and used to work for Hermes and also Alexander Queen before becoming like a full time stylist, I think. Chic and cool. I always try to make like a mix because some clients in the Netherlands, like Tommy Hilfiger for example, that are more streetwear oriented, and then the clients that they have in Italy are more like high end fashion brands like MaxMara and Tods, but also cooler brands like Palm Angel. So I like very much the mix of it. I think also the cooler brands. Maybe they can also be interesting to sell the super high end luxury brands in a more cool way without losing, of course, the message to communicate with their clothes are also super well made and stuff like that. Yeah.

Judith van Vliet: Because heritage and identity is important. But then you're speaking to audiences and consumer groups are changing. So let's say that a style by Ellen is luxurious but cool, sexy.

Ellen Mirck: Yeah. Wow. And if I could add labor meaningful, that would be even fantastic.

Judith van Vliet: On a personal level, you started your career between the Netherlands and Italy. Was it hard as a duchy to enter the Milanese fashion styling world did not come overnight.

Ellen Mirck: Yeah, no, that's for sure. That was kind of hard. What I actually noticed is that it's two things. One is living in another country, and two is doing the job that you love already. Becoming a statistic in the Netherlands is difficult. So in another country, it's even maybe more difficult. So when I came here, I wanted everything perfectly at the same time. But I also realized I have to make sure that I really like living in Italy, that I have to speak the language that I have to understand. Because you also have a life without styling. And it's maybe a bit more investing here, I think you know it also yourself than in London, because of course, London is a bit more open minded. Everybody is speaking really well English. I also lived there when I worked for Alexander McQueen and Italy. Nowadays, people speak a lot of English. But I do notice that it's very important also to speak Italian. There's a lot of different cultures here, so you need both. It was not easy. It was not easy. I also started to buy myself with simple jobs, starting in e commerce. I did a lot of shootings for young designers that just graduated to create some portfolio. And maybe they went on to bigger brands, and then they asked me to do the study for them. So everything went really slowly, and I always had to be super flexible. So they called me the evening before. The best jobs always arrived the evening before. Can you do tomorrow? And I was like, oh, yes. But actually I also had appointments that I had to cancel. I remember even my graduation, I planned like a trip with my mother around Italy, but at the end we had to cancel it because I had another kind of job, which was important. So I did a lot. I did it a lot and I did a lot of myself. Now I have two amazing assistance, but when I just started, I was just going around through the rain with all the packages for editorials. I'm always super down to earth. I'm still like from actually a little city in the Netherlands, so in the north of the Netherlands, so I'm always with my boat foot on the ground. Sometimes there comes assistance here that I think it's only one kind of luxury world, but actually we are working super hard. It's beautiful. We're now preparing a trip to Vienna, which is amazing. But of course it can also be something stressful because we don't have the budget until the sky and the clients always want everything. So it's a lot of communicating and also being very strategic and creative, being.

Judith van Vliet: Creative with the budget that you have in the end, exactly what color and color combinations can people expect you in fashion over the next year and next two years? What do you think is going to come?

Ellen Mirck: You know that better than me.

Judith van Vliet: You know about the fashion. I watch fashion, but a lot less because it's not directly my market. I do sports performance. It's not really yeah, I have, depending.

Ellen Mirck: On what they say, you have like, the brand with a strong color identity. But I feel a lot of monochrome colors at the moment. Also I see the trend there's, the war going on. There's a lot of cargo, which means a lot of greens, browns. People want to feel protected. Also, orange I think personally is an important color. But yeah, a lot of monochrome color schemes, I would say. And there's a lot of different styles going on. So I think according to the style, you also see a lot of colors connected with that. What do you think? What do you feel? That these are amazing colors for the bobbins.

Judith van Vliet: When I indeed looked at the Milan design week obviously was, and that's for me is always the most important week. Good. So it's interesting to see that there was the return of white and beige. White and beige return. The browns are staying. And then you had still a lot of the terracotta oranges orange, yes, very bright, like almost neon. When you looked at Madison, for example, his rally also had some very bright colors. But then when we look at what happened, it was either very silent, it was like through the roof.

Ellen Mirck: Personally, I also like the combination very much between maybe a dark brown with a super popping orange detail I think can be super beautiful.

Judith van Vliet: Yesterday I was at Cersaie is on the ceramics in Bologna, and it's always interesting. I love going there because you see a lot of patterns.

Ellen Mirck: You see.

Judith van Vliet: Different textures, which are very interesting. And I just saw brown applied as, like, neutral, like on the walls. It was like a brown reddish terracotta. And the colors and the tiles were applied. So where you normally use white off white beige, it was almost like brown. The terracotta brown was being applied as the neutral.

Ellen Mirck: I love it because I think everything pops out better from the walls where you have that. Also, I think in the museum, in some cool museums, if you put like a picture on a colorful wall, it has a lot more impact. I think personally, you just mentioned you.

Judith van Vliet: Wanted to do something more with meaning in that fashion industry is ready. I think we just a couple of weeks ago, obviously H&M was attacked because of their green washing, right? Because the tables that they have in the clothes were indicating that this was a more sustainable garment than others. And then they found out that that was not true.

Ellen Mirck: That's not true.

Judith van Vliet: So that's what's happening in the fashion industry. Don't pretend that you're green because consumers will come and get you. How do you see this moving forward, like your vision? How do you feel that fashion can be more sustainable over the next couple of weeks?

Ellen Mirck: Super interesting question, actually. I just had a really big info about this. I think let's first start as good as people are trying, I see from the young designers up, a lot of amazing ideas. There's also very cool 3D projects like Osborne. I don't know if you know them. They make amazing, crazy printed pieces. You just go on a holiday without the suitcase, you print out your complete war up. I mean, technically, the sky is the limit on this moment. And that, I think, is super exciting. What I do feel sometimes with 3D design is that we lose a bit of the emotions because I like to touch the clothes and feel both the biggest problem or problem difficulties, I think, are in fast fashion on the moment. And I think on the top level brands, you, of course, have more quality and that already is lasting longer. People think maybe more about their choices. They make use, of course, products like leather and sometimes fur, which of course, are difficult subjects to speak about. I think people have to get more educated. I think the consumers want more transparency on the moment. And I think there should be commissions. Maybe that validate what you're saying. Like, okay, this brand is saying that he has this certain line because sometimes the big brands start to make a little collection within the bigger line. What happens also with H&M and that you have, like, commissions that are checking for the consumers if this is actually true, that you're buying, because everybody wants to be more conscious. And I think it's really interesting if there are becoming shops with actually amazing research with also, maybe mixtures of cycle pieces and pieces also maybe from new designers. It would be very interesting if the seasons go more out like what Gucci is already doing, that they are not having a season. If they say we don't go into sales anymore, we stand behind all the collections that we make, I think that is already super interesting and that people have to buy less at the end, buy less and have more interesting clothes that last longer. And I think that I would really love to talk more about in my own YouTube channel is how do you build up your own collection of quotes? And of course you don't want to look boring, especially me and Stylist, but how can you build a borrower that is interesting now and develop it? And there are transport, there are short term trends, there are long term trends. When do you buy stuff? Because if you start to buy in the beginning of a trend, then it will also last longer. But speaking again about greenwashing is very difficult, of course and I think it's amazing that consumers nowadays have so many access to all this information on the internet. I know for example. For makeup that there is an app that you can put the name of your product in and then you see all the ingredients with also number ratings of how good the product is. If it's really where it's made from and that would be amazing also if that is happening for clothes. That you can have more knowledge about what you're actually buying. Where it's made from. But people can say a lot of things. It's really difficult to actually know as a personal consumer where the pieces are made that you are buying. I think it's a combination between what the brands are doing and what we want that the brands are doing. Because at the end, if we don't buy their clothes anymore, we are also responsible ourselves. I think we should educate our children also about this topic, what's going on in the world, because a lot of stars, I think also with children and I have more information about this and communicate share with each other.

Judith van Vliet: I think that is very well said and I think that's where it starts. It's all about education. But one last question that I wanted to ask you is to share with us one of your dreams, your wireless dreams, like what we love to do.

Ellen Mirck: Well, I would love to make the world a better place.

Judith van Vliet: Great advocate.

Ellen Mirck: I feel more and more do something, first of all myself, but also my kids are proud of that. You say like I said to La, well, I would be so proud if you are this or that, but you have to be that person. Like let's start with ourselves to be a good person, to actually make something that is lasting in this world. I do have to say that I think fashion buying clothes should be fun and that there's nothing wrong with me being beautiful because a lot of people have maybe more boring jobs and they want to just have fun in the weekend. But I think it should be the right combination between actually creating a cool wardrobe and knowing what you are buying, maybe buying less. Like when I buy, I always think, what can I combine? This is only one piece. Do I have to buy a whole new outfit if I buy this piece? Or can I make a evolution? I would say the outfit create a new five. Is it something that is lasting longer or is it only nice for now? So I really think about that. So, yeah, that would be actually my dream, that I can inspire other people and really create something with value. That would be amazing. And in the meantime, have fun because I think it's super important in life to have fun and have amazing experiences. For my work, I travel a lot, it's just amazing. I work with very interesting and inspirational people from all over the world. So that is also giving so much inspiration. So I just want to continue with that and if my industry can be more clean, let's say like that more sustainable and I think we are ready for that and it's a long way to go, but if I can be part of this, I would be super proud.

Judith van Vliet: I think you'll be part of it.

Ellen Mirck: Yeah.

Judith van Vliet: I feel that you're getting there and I think a lot of people are opening up to it.

Ellen Mirck: So that's the most yes.

Judith van Vliet: Thank you so much, Ellen, for being part of TCA.

Judith van Vliet: It's great talking to you, as always.

Ellen Mirck: Yes. Such an honor. Thank you so much.

Judith van Vliet: Thank you for listening to my episode with Ellen. If you like the show, please go to Apple podcasts and Spotify and rate and refuel the show. My next episode is going to go out on November 1. Yes. All Saints, and it's going to be a very particular episode as it's going to be with Mark Wentworth and we are going to talk about how we are born into color. So stay tuned and have a great day.