Shining your Light with Judith van Vliet

This is quite the unusual podcast for me.. as for the first time I am being interviewed myself by Keith Recker who beseeched, almost begged me to let the TCA fans get to know me better by turning the tables and allowing myself to be the interviewee. This fun conversation gives some insights into the mysterious world of color forecasting and its future, how you may identify color for clients and their brand but most importantly, what color can do for you on a personal level once you learn how to work with it. Color is life, color is emotion and above all, it is power. 

Judith was born in 1981 in the countryside of The Netherlands. She moved to the urban environment of The Hague for her studies at the age of 17. At 28, when she moved to Milan, she fulfilled a lifelong dream of living in Italy. She still lives there, a participant in the vibrant unfolding of color and design-thinking in one of the world’s creativity capitols. 

Her initial dive into color came in her first job as Product Planning Specialist at Kawasaki Motors, where she was the only European and the only woman on Kawasaki’s Japan-based design team. Later, she served as Senior Color Designer at Avient ColorWorks, which designs innovative and increasingly sustainable polymer-based colorants to the manufacturing sector and was Creative Director of ColorForward, a global color forecasting guide. These positions allowed her to travel the world to present social and consumer color intelligence to cross-industry professionals, designers and marketers.

Today she is captain of her own ship as founder and color intelligence provider at The Color Authority. She’s also vice president of membership of the Color Marketing Group, where she’s been very active for over fifteen years in positions including president and member of the executive committee.

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Transcript

Judith van Vliet: So welcome, everybody, to a, I guess, a special edition of the Color Authority, because I'm going to be doing something I've never done before, at least not on this podcast. I was actually invited on my own podcast by Keith Recker, with whom you all know. I did a wonderful podcast last year to be interviewed myself, so that's what it's going to be like. I'm very uncomfortable in a certain sense of the word, but I am also very excited to be doing this. So, Keith, welcome again on the Color Authority and thank you for your invite.

Keith Recker: Thank you for saying yes. I think, like most people who don't love being the center of attention, you really deserve it. So why don't we start? So I'm going to just introduce our most esteemed, quote unquote guest today because I think many people listening out there would love to know more about Judith van Vliet. So Judith was born in 1981 in the countryside in the Netherlands. She moved to the beautiful urban environment of Den Haag for her studies at the age of 17. And at 28, she moved to Milan, which fulfilled a lifelong dream of living in Italy, which I share. She still lives there, a participant in the vibrant unfolding of color and design thinking in one of the world's creativity capitals. Her initial dive into color came in her first job as product planning specialist at Kawasaki Motors, where she was the only European and the only woman on Kawasaki's Japan based design team. Later, she served as senior color designer at Avient ColorWorks, which designs innovative and increasingly sustainable polymer based colorants to the manufacturing sector. And she was creative director of ColorForward, a global color forecasting guide. These positions allowed her to travel around the world to present social and consumer color intelligence to cross industry professionals, designers and marketers. Today, she's the captain of her own ship as founder and color intelligence provider of the Color Authority. She is also vice president of membership of the Color Marketing Group, where she's been very active for over 15 years in positions including president and member of the executive committee. I came to know Judith through her podcast because she had a friend of ours, a mutual friend of ours, Patty Carpenter, on, and I tuned in and listened to all of them. I think this podcast is so informative and so inspirational. So with a worldwide array of guests, Judith gives shape to color not just as an element of design or a tool to entice customers, but also as a spiritual force, a problem solving element, the multidimensional omnipresent factor of the human experience. And this big consideration, I think, makes Judith a unique and uniquely informed color thinker. On behalf of many people who see this podcast and you in the same way, I thank you for today. So I'm such a fan. We sort of touched on this already that I really did have to kind of plead and beseech Judith, I think at least three times to consider this. And finally last month we got a yes and here we are today. So we're going to get to know her better today by turning the tables a little bit and allowing her to be the interviewee. And so here we go. I'm going to start the same way you start because I love your initial questions. Judith, what is color to you?

Judith van Vliet: Well, and that is exactly what the question I've asked everybody. So I've heard so many replies and it's very difficult to be honest to now reply to that question, of course, but for me, literally, it is who I am because I am, I think, one of the very few persons and of course you are one of those as well. But if you look at how many people actually would love to work in color, color is their passion, design is their passion, but they can't really make their own business out of it. That's exactly what I did and I never thought that was possible. For me, color is really life. Literally. It is something that I think moves people and I think color is still not receiving the attention and also, to be honest, the popularity and the importance that it is actually that it should be given. Because as I said, I think for me, color is something that not only makes me emotional each and every day again and it really taps into my feelings. I think it can bring a long change and that's where a lot of people are still not quite understanding that power of color. Hence the podcast.

Keith Recker: Interesting, right? And you've around the world for people who as a healer, for people who like Mark Wentworth identify the color of you. Have you worked like that with color? Have you taken on healing component? Have you identified with a color to make it your own?

Judith van Vliet: I have. Well, definitely. So when Mark told me I was born in Yellow and it was just amazing to hear that, because I think almost a year before that, I did another podcast with Thelma van der Werff and she's a color therapist, and she told me I was a need to wear more yellow to come more in touch with my own being, with my intuition and with what she called my life mission. So then when Mark said that I was born into life as a yellow person and that my archetype was a warrior, that I need projects and that I always ask the question why I was just like that's it that's me. But I never looked I mean, I looked at color always the way how I dress, for example, the day dressing in orange, because, yes, I am doing a podcast. Orange is the color of connection, it's the color of communication. I don't always think about it like that, but on days that I'm just not feeling that great, I will not wear black because I know it will drag you down.

Keith Recker: Well, I love that you're identifying with yellow because what I see across the podcast, the arc of the podcast, is that you have that bright optimism that when light is shone on something, it becomes useful and perhaps more important. Right. And it can take the shape that people need it to take once you shine the light on it. So this is color. This is you.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah, but that's also what a yellow person is. A yellow person always needs to ask themselves, how can I shine? And if something or person or situation is not bringing out the best in you, especially in my case, being yellow person, I better leave it alone or I'll make people miserable. I was told.

Keith Recker: Judith, we have so many things to talk about on and off, right? Interview well, let's move. Let's move to the question that I think you alluded to this in a separate conversation that people ask you all the time. Right? There are some questions that you frequently get from people, and now is our chance to maybe hear some of your answers. So, to you, what is color forecasting?

Judith van Vliet: Color forecasting is a tool. It is obviously, for a lot of people, a way of making a living as well. For me, it is a tool. However, it is how I, over the past couple of years, have helped, and I continue to help companies, marketeers and designers, brand owners, especially on knowing when they have a certain product line or a certain service, they are always thinking about, yeah, but what does it need to look like? And maybe they have an idea on what it should look like. But the color is always a very difficult topic also, because still people are very afraid of color. And I think doing color predictions along storytelling, because a lot of people still really think that we just go out on the street and we just go, okay, today is blue, or let's do green, or that we pick our favorite colors also. That's a myth, obviously, but I do think it helps people make decisions for product lines and make sure that they pick out that right color, that in the moment that they're launching that product, it actually fits the environment. And that can be the environment of the end consumer. It can be the environment of their particular market. Because when we look at how much actually color influences a product, it's around 85, 95%. It really depends on what statistics you look at. Getting the wrong color just literally means that you'll have a lot of stock of that product. And I think in the current society, that's not done.

Keith Recker: Yeah, inventory is a bad word. Exactly. You want it to go. You want to produce just enough, and you want it to go. You used a phrase a second ago, which I love long storytelling. How does tracing the story of the colors that you're recommending enhance the communication and the relevance of what you're suggesting to people.

Judith van Vliet: I think when color forecasting started, you could easily I mean, you would go to The Big Leader by Lidewij Edelkoort or Cecile Poignant or whoever you were really into and listening to even Pantone. Of course, people would just literally get away with saying, okay, next year is orange and this and this and this color and that's. It it's not like that anymore. If you don't actually explain people why you're actually seeing certain colors happening, they won't accept them. And also, it will make your life very difficult as a forecast. So what I see is that storytelling is not necessarily making up a beautiful story, and obviously, yeah, it's bringing them along certain decisions that they need to make. But I think storytelling comes from online and offline research. It is building the confidence with your clients in a way that makes them understand that what you're seeing, your observations, what you're seeing in the market, how different markets are connecting to one another, where you're seeing those small bits and signals, how you connect those dots. And if you do that in the form of storytelling, using yes, also informative data such as, unfortunately, sometimes statistics, it is more likely that people will actually buy into your colors as well, because I don't think that colors just exist per se. There's always a reason why they enter the market, and you need to know that reason. And the client, right now, they'll need to know that reason. So storytelling, yes, needs to be done beautifully, poetically, but it does need to come from close observations of the market external factors economy, politics, societal movements, even new food ingredients, new restaurants opening up, new Netflix series that suddenly are popping up and being super popular. They all say something about how we're feeling, how we're behaving, and then also what colors we're going to be more sensitive to in the next couple of months or years. So it's a step by step process. Instead of launching the colors on your table in front of the clients, it's a process in which you actually explain them the how and the why. Before you getting to that end result.

Keith Recker: You'Re touching on something that someone I knew very well for a little while, a textile designer named Julian Thompson, who just passed away last week. He told me well before I ever thought about getting involved in color trend forecasting, that the worst trend forecaster thinks that they're creating the trend, and the best forecaster is always listening and reflecting the trend. And you're saying the same. This is an act of information gathering and listening and building the stories that are coming because they're actually out there.

Judith van Vliet: And that's the myth that a lot of people think that we are pushing trends onto people or colors onto people. And that is not true. We are simply observing society, maybe not the complete society but let's say groups of society that perhaps, yes, are more at the forefront of what is happening in certain markets. But by those observations, you can at a certain point read out what they're looking for. And it always starts with their values. If you don't understand the value of the people that you are forecasting for, there is no use of doom forecast. And the second, of course, is what is their need? What is their very particular need that you need to tap into? And color is just as much a need as a product or service.

Keith Recker: When you say need, do you mean the need to increase sales, the need to innovate, the need to be at the top of the pyramid in their category? Is that what you mean by need?

Judith van Vliet: No, it's really emotional. It's a need way more deeper than we actually think. Yes, it can be in the form of a product, but in the end you buy a product because it is going to ful-fill a need that you feel you have. And you can judge the needs of people in different ways, of course, whether how hard they are on the hierarchy of truly needing a certain product, yes or no. But let's say in the winter you buy different types of clothes because you literally need to feel warm. Now, in Europe, gas prices are so high you can literally see people buying Marino wool as thermal just so that they can put maybe the heating a little bit lower and still be comfortable at home. Those are needs, and those are maybe, yes, direct, immediate needs. But the beauty of human beings is that they change continuously and once one need is fulfilled, the next is already there. So that's why, although there's not one trend forecast that is good or is correct, there's multiple and there's no like, oh, they got it wrong or they got it right. There's just multiple stories, there's multiple groups and societies and markets that you forecast for. But to do it well, it means you need to observe and understand literally what those values are that people are actually following in this moment and what those needs are, and how you or you can help your clients tap into those needs.

Keith Recker: Right, well, you touched on something which kind of leads us to the next question. You were talking about how no one forecast is necessarily right or wrong, they're just hooking into a different energy at a different point in time when you work in groups. We had a nice smile a few conversations ago about what it's like to be in a room filled with people who were super committed about color, who've all done their own research and come to the table with a passionate point of view. How do you create consensus in a group process? And I suppose I know it's like this with clients too, right? You can present something and have it just meet a huge wall of resistance. How do you get to an agreement in these processes?

Judith van Vliet: So, funny enough, I've never received huge resistance. And I think that is, again, the storytelling. If you have a very good reason of why you picked a certain color and you can explain even a child, a five year old, because that's always also what I tell people. If a five year old can understand, the entire market can understand. But if you're making it all complex and use a certain language that nobody else is able to understand, just let it go. But I think storytelling is important. So I moderated groups for at least 15 years, being part of one of the decision makers, but also always being the moderator. And funny enough, once the story is built, the color consensus follows. There's still discussion. People around when it comes to color become very passionate, and it's lovely to see very often because you talk about the story for hours or sometimes days, depending on how you do the workshops, the color pops in your mind is always there when you at least it isn't me. And I'm not a sin to Steve, but when I talk about certain stories, I already know what the color should look like. And I think that that is for most people. So if you're aligned on the story, color most of the time follows. So what we do normally is when we describe the story, I ask everybody, what color family do we need to pick out for this color story? So not immediately. Let's go for a dusty, shady pink. No, let's first go so we go for the red family and why the reds? And then indeed, why we go for a pink that is desaturated or what type of application we see this. That's the next step. Even that's, even after the color has been picked. But it is really about defending your color. It's not because I like it. It's not because this is coming. And that's it. No, this is coming. What you're going to explain the rest of the group, why you think it's coming, who are maybe even the people that are going to tap into that color, maybe even what products you see that color in. Especially if, let's say, you're the outsider who goes for a color that's so different than what the rest of the group is seeing. And that does happen. But in the end, discussing, talking, building that story, it's very hard that you get like, let's say no consensus. I mean, at least in my 15 years of experience, that has never happened.

Keith Recker: At the end of the day, the story that I was referencing about wallet resistance. So I had a gig with a major soft drink company, a major soft drink company. And my looking at what was coming in terms of political polarization really inspired me to say, and I think I was probably right, that red and blue would be looked on with less than joy and that it would be great to start to build some identities that weren't so hinging on only red and blue. It's very difficult for the corporate types to hear, but at the end of the day, as you say, great storytelling and patience led to much enhanced use of black and white, which are flexible and not perhaps as tainted in some ways. But yeah, I think you're right. Right. It is unearthing, the story. It is talking and building understanding in order to get to agreement.

Judith van Vliet: And sometimes also the why not? Why not? That red and blue. And also what it unfortunately, for the last couple of years has stood for in politics, of course, which makes it so difficult. And I know that brands and soft drinks are different, but people have color traumas so deeply eradicated into their beings and in their families. It's hard to get around them sometimes.

Keith Recker: Hard to get around them. It is hard to get around them. We talked a little bit about working in groups. When you're working alone, how do you challenge your own choices, like we have in other conversations talked about that need to get beyond. I like, how do you back up and really call your own choices into questions so that you're confident at the end of your process?

Judith van Vliet: I do my research alone. Alone. If I go to Milan Design Week, I often go with friends. And while you walk, you chatter and you observe together. Obviously, I do my research alone, but then I do regularly check in with my international network that I links to CMG have, and I discuss my observations. I discuss my observations also with people who are not actually in the forecasting industry, because people who are architects, who are all part of my friend group, people who are artists, they all have those observations. They all observe the world. I mean, that's not just forecasters. So for me then also, CMG color marking group has been perfect in the sense that during the workshops, I bring my trends, I bring my colors, maybe in a smaller story, maybe I don't bring them the full story, but a topic. And very often this is confirmed. And even because you're discussing with groups of 1015, 30 people, there's a lot of new information added as well. So for me, network and having that network, it's an immense worth. I think people still have not understood the worth of actually having a network like that. Literally, it's literally an email to you or a call quickly to indeed Patty or anybody else, because I have a question. What red is China looking for this year, for celebrations for their New Year? It literally takes me one email to find that out because of the network that CMG grants, but also the network that I've built. So that is how I confront then, when I do trends for a client and they've actually assigned me that as a project. I also talk to them about it. I more talk about what are the nose? Maybe within the market, there are certain colors that just don't work in cosmetics or that don't work in packaging for certain shampoos, for example, because they are very much still color coded according to what you want to do with your hair. So that is until a certain extent. I do also ask feedback of the clients, but that's only when I'm already actually almost done, and then I normally ask them for some feedback as well. But that's normally at the end. But yeah, talking to my network and that's what a lot of people don't get. I share a lot. I share a lot of my information. I share a lot of my projects. I share a lot of what I'm actually thinking and forecasting because I don't believe in keeping everything with me because their competition or they may do something with my information. I've never quite understood that. And maybe that's stupid, but that's how I operate.

Keith Recker: No, that's great. That's very yellow of you. Is there a color that you find appearing in your forecasts that you catch yourself saying, oh, that's there, actually, because I like it.

Judith van Vliet: No.

Keith Recker: Interesting.

Judith van Vliet: No, literally, no. I forecasted colors that I was literally like, whatever, but maybe with a mica or a pearlescent, actually. And that is actually true. Flat color, per se can be like, oh, I'm not so sure about that one. But then there's this world of special effects, transparency, opacity going all in the CMF. Part of what color is there is no such thing as a truly ugly color, literally. It's not because depending how you apply it the amount of color that you apply, and then on what type of surface with the textures, it changes the world.

Keith Recker: There's probably a very well known ugliest color in the world in use in Australia. And when I see that sometimes pop up, I think to myself, you know, actually, that's a really beautiful color, and.

Judith van Vliet: It grows on you. Like any color can grow on you. There are certain colors. What I think is that literally, there's colors that just especially when they're very clean and very bright, so low blackness, low whiteness, you can grow more easily tired of them, especially when you have them maybe in your home. But other than that, I think any color can really grow on you.

Keith Recker: Yeah, it's true. Every color serves a purpose, right? Of the 10 million shades that the average human can see, they all seem to have some purpose. It is crazy. Let me ask you the next question. Is there a current color problem that you're working on solving?

Judith van Vliet: I have many color problems. Which shall we start with? Well, as we were talking about color forecasting, I think that is the biggest problem. Not the biggest problem, but let's say I don't think color forecasting the way we know it now is going to exist for many more years. Because I think generally in a world where it is clearly we're not doing well as a society, the world is not doing well and we're still not understanding it today. It was eleven degrees Celsius in Milan. It's January. That's not normal consumerism. These are true issues. We cannot do seasonal fashion anymore, in my humble opinion. And not working in fashion. But still we can't do seasonal color forecasting either. Maybe not even annual. And I don't have the answer. But I feel very strongly that in a couple of years this will change. Not immediately, but I feel that it's totally uncool to push colors onto people and onto products in a world where simply we need to start living with less and not changing our wardrobes as often as we do. So what I've started to do is to work more on color identity with brands and brand identity trends always influence any color decision. People that say, I know the color trends. I'm like, yes you do. Everybody is an observer. Everybody in the end is a designer, is an artist. We all are influenced by what happens outside. But to literally copy paste what color forecasters are doing, which still happens in a lot of companies, I can tell you, and they're greedy for the next color forecast each and every time. They are also getting resistance from R & D very clearly within the companies, as they should. But I don't think that that is the entire future. I think life is slow, but also there's always duality. Life is changing very quickly, which actually makes us freeze. However, not only people are seeing that that's happening because we're just pushing for more. But what you're seeing right now is that we properly would look more into longevity colors and longevity color is not always navy blue. That's different per market, per product, per culture. Still agree? That's a topic which I think is a tough one to crack. I mean, in my podcast I've asked so many people, I think we also touched upon it. I don't think it's sustainable. I'm seeing there's the word again, but generally I don't think it's sustainable to have seasonal forecasts, but also forecast per se. I think they need to be looking forward at least ten years ahead instead of what is now a year or two years.

Keith Recker: Dealing with duality is definitely part of the discipline at this point. Yeah. What will last and be productive? What will provide stimulation and interest in the moment? Because you need both of those factors, I think, to complete a sale right now. So you're right, the duality part is super important and it does change the nature of color forecasting. I think it's spot on there. The story is changing. Do you find that the ideas about data and artificial intelligence are changing people's perceptions of the future and how we can walk into it? With more information.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah, I'm not too convinced on that yet. I think still, color is highly an emotional topic, and it always will. Data is making us feel more comfortable, perhaps making certain decisions, especially when you work with big groups, big companies, big OEMs, and you are going to splash an orange, let's say, on a car. You may also want data on what orange sells like in most markets, but that's always the past. Data still cannot forecast the future. So I think in that sense, it's always going to be the human and the emotional part of us, which is still intuition. Choosing colors. I think data actually makes it maybe easier to understand certain movements in the market. I doubt it will actually take over, not for now at least. I doubt that.

Keith Recker: I've been in conversation with an AI ethicist who lives near here, and he made a statement that in his view, AI was capable of generating material that was just about good enough, but not excellent, not original, not forward looking. And I think about that all the time. Right. In in the face of of these ideas about data and and trend forecasting.

Judith van Vliet: They have no ego, so why would they please themselves?

Keith Recker: We are still necessary is my conclusion. But yeah, that's about right. That is about right. Is there any color that's on your mind lately as an expression of the generals?

Judith van Vliet: I'd guess I've actually I've tapped into orange again, as you can see. I don't know where that comes from. It's definitely not because we lost in the world championship.

Keith Recker: Or is it it's not.

Judith van Vliet: It has been orange because I've never been a red person. I find red very often aggressive, a little bit too bold, and I find orange just sweeter and softer and more amicable. So that's been a color that I've had on my mind. And it's funny that when I have conversations about as well, yellow as orange with people generally, whether it's fashion, whether it's products, there's resistance. And it's funny that resistance. A lot of people always say both colors. Not a lot of people can wear the colors. I'm aware of that. So that's the first resistance. They don't understand that maybe there's 400 of oranges and yellows that they can choose from. They just see one particular color. But there's some resistance when it comes to both colors. And it's funny because color psychology wise, they're rather positive colors. Orange can be seen as cheap in certain products. Yellow can obviously talk to sometimes envy. And in yellow rooms, people are not comfortable, but they're not negative colors at all.

Keith Recker: I love what you said about not red, because we've just been out through pink PP, right? We magenta. These are not red. This is a way to have all the vehemence and the fire without it being over the top, as you said. And orange maybe has the same benefit. Yeah, that's really cool. Okay, let's back. Up and be philosophical. How does color change? How does it move across the seasons, the years, the decades? Is there a mechanism? Is there a pulse? How do you see it?

Judith van Vliet: I think color is changing more due well, it's changing due to two factors. I think it's external factors. So this is, yes, again, sustainability, having less money in your pocket. It makes people buy differently, literally less, but also differently. People go for more secure, maybe more neutral colors or colors just that they know that they already have in their wardrobe and that makes them feel safe. I mean, for some people orange can be a safe color because they know they look good in orange. But on the other hand, you have also the personal level and I think those are the big factors where we see color change seasonality is less strong. And that's not I think that's already been a thing, I think, for a couple of years. But yes, in the winter we wear maybe colors that we induce warm feelings with and then hot summers, colors that inspire coolness. But I think we are reaching a point where people are actually learning about color and expressing their feelings, their personality through color. And I think that is going to change the whole seasonality about color. There's a few colors, however, that I've noticed having done the forecast for 15 years, is that colors like fucsia, like certain magentas and lime green, they come back every other three, four years. They have a shorter cycle. Even if they're very bright, they have a shorter cycle. And that's something that is not a color problem, but that's something that intrigues me. Like why is lime green so often coming back in forecast? And the same for fucsia pink?

Keith Recker: That's a good question. Sometimes I think turquoise has a similar thing, doesn't come back as often as fucsia but bit the same. Yeah, it's almost like you get thirsty for something like, oh, I haven't had Manhattan in a while, I would like a Manhattan today. Yeah, I agree with you. There's something interesting about that. So basically you're talking about sort of a combination of the general zeitgeist, the personal impulse and some seasonal variation as creating this rhythm. It's almost like a pulse, right?

Judith van Vliet: It is. But I think color changes less often. Whereas I said when we are in economically healthy environments, that's also when color forecasting was actually born. You would see that in the deeds. Products change quicker, markets change quicker, people are also quicker in following certain color trends, but we are simply not in such an environment. So people are literally not entirely comfortable. And that you can see we as humans are, as I told you before, we are freezing up, whereas the world is feeding and we are freezing because we're paralysed, because we've been stuck for a couple of years and now we actually have to get back on the crazy train. The rat race. And you are actually seeing that everything that we're pushing on to consumers is not sticking as well as it was actually before. And you're seeing that. And brands are actually now seeing that too. And I do think that's why colors will be less seasonal. They will have greater longevity, as hopefully also certain textiles and fibres will. But I do think that we tend to think that we are as quick as external changes. We human beings, but we're actually not. We don't adapt to change that quickly. So neither two seasonal colors that quickly.

Keith Recker: And the more rapid the change, the more likely the consumer is to seize up. Right? Too much is just too much. Very interesting. How does place and therefore culture affect color and color evolution? I know you've spoken very passionately about Mexico, right? And the color sensibility. It's very regional. It's very urban versus rural. There's a lot of factors. It's hardly a monolith, but there is overall different color sensibility. That's terribly exciting. How do you describe the difference between, say, Mexico and the Netherlands or Italy versus the US.

Judith van Vliet: Well, the funny thing is that as well, the Netherlands as Mexico has a very strong relation with orange. So that's what relates, I guess, two countries. But culture in color is hugely important. It sets like culture sets language, what we eat, what we drink, how we move our bodies, how we dance. This is so influencing as well, color because color is part of all of that. So our upbringing and light usually influences color. In Scandinavia. My brother lives in Sweden. Literally, at 03:00 P.m., it is dark. There's no lights. So having dark colors in the home means there's absolutely no reflection during those few hours of the day that you do have light. Because literally dark colors absorb light. So that's why in the north as well as in the Netherlands still you have lighter interiors, literally because you want reflection when the sun comes in. You want it to reflect something back to you. And this is different in countries like Mexico and it's different also in Italy, where colors are brighter. There's a reason why colors are brighter in sunnier areas in the world. The funny thing, however, is that Dutch people do tend to dress very colourfully. I think also that one of the reasons is because they do understand that color is important and it makes them happy. They've already understood this. I think that is very similar to larger parts of populations in Latin America. But they also care less of getting it wrong. Whereas in Italy they're afraid to get it wrong. So they just stick with what they know if they're not very fashionable, which is unfortunately black. In Italy, there's a lot of black and in interiors there's perhaps more color. But it's funny enough that in Italy it should be very colourful. It's actually not. I have a jacket in this exact same color as I'm wearing. I was the only colourful person on the subway today. Everybody was wearing black.

Keith Recker: Well, you know, the beginning of identifying black as the right uniform, particularly in menswear, was in 15th century Italy. Balance Castiglione. Right. And Il Cortezante, he defined black as the dignified, appropriate choice for daily wear. So it's had a long history.

Judith van Vliet: It has a long history. And obviously, I think, especially with Italian women, they still have the feeling that it dresses and it dresses nice. It's true. But yeah, it's unfortunately, black also makes you literally invisible. You're not literally not transporting your personality, your character. You're literally absorbing light and energy.

Keith Recker: I love what you said about not being afraid of getting it wrong, because my own experience in Mexico and Guatemala and other countries in Central and South America, there is a freedom to go for what's going to make you happy, what suits your day, what suits your mood, what suits you. And that kind of freedom is very nourishing. When you're in the middle of it, you also feel free.

Judith van Vliet: I think also, especially while I can talk more to Mexico, is the spirituality level of spirituality is a lot higher than here in Europe, how people just know that certain foods, energies, herbs, alternative medicines are just good for them and for their bodies. Not going too much in detail with shamans and what they can do for you as alternative medicine. But that's huge. And that's something that here in Europe, we're only just tapping into. Maybe our grandmothers knew, and they did a little bit of their own, but we also have to recognise that women, until not too long ago, were actually, literally put on fire when they would play around with herbs. Europe has a history when it comes to what they would call witches. There's a reason why here there is still a stigma, whereas it's not in.

Keith Recker: Latin America, right, in those cauldrons, right, of the traditional depiction of witches, that could just have been a tisan, right, with some BUrbane and some peppercorns and something to actually perk you up.

Judith van Vliet: But that's where the first oppression to at least women in Europe started, if you think about it, and what that did to color and what that did to food and indeed also the world of medicine.

Keith Recker: Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. Separate question. More on the color forecasting. Back to the color forecasting questions. How does color vary from sector to sector? So we know cars are different from furniture, right. Package goods for the shelves are different from clothing. How do you see the difference between sectors?

Judith van Vliet: I think definitely packaging session, fast moving markets are a lot quicker to tap into trends and color trends. Food as well, literally. I mean, you eat it and it's gone. So they're very quick in moving in this sector. Not necessarily that they will put the last color of Karl Lagerfeld on their croissant. Not quite like that, because what you see in the food industry is actually everything going natural, so less working with colorants. But it's funny when you say car industry, the automotive industry doing color for the automotive industry is huge. This is where it changes completely because specifying for them is very complicated due to the high quality levels that they have to keep even black. Literally, it's a very long process, let alone do a color that maybe through light or any other external source, may change over time. Literally, for most automotive OEMs, that is a no. So, unfortunately, it is a more conservative market also because they work a lot of more years ahead. I remember in Kawasaki, when you would have a motorcycle completely from scratch, meaning that you're redesigning the engine and the chassis that will be literally at least three years of actually working on that motorcycle. In the car industry, I think it's probably even five. So you're actually forecasting five years ahead, three years ahead in the motorcycle industry. So those are industries that are more conservative. It's true. If you do call a forecasting more years ahead, there's more risk that you don't get it. Right. The resale is a big factor in the automotive industry. If I buy a yellow car and I want to sell it in two or three years, there's not a lot of people that probably want to have a yellow car. That is a different factor. So I think the automotive is very particular in that, especially when it comes to color, because quality but also, unfortunately, the conservative matter that you still have with consumers in this particular market. But what I say is, in food is quick, packaging is very quick. Fashion, obviously is quick, and interior sits a little bit in the middle.

Keith Recker: The higher investment categories move a little more slowly. That notion of resale or longevity does come into play.

Judith van Vliet: It does.

Keith Recker: Fascinating. I've noticed when I look at concept cars, as opposed to what's on the sales floor, amazing. The risks that are taken are amazing. The material choices, the reflectivities. Right. I found a concept car that was basically red, reflecting with highlights in magenta and low lights in purple. And the way the light caught the curves of the car was mesmerizing. And you and I both know we will never see that on the sales floor yet. How inspiring.

Judith van Vliet: Probably people will buy an Austin Martin and get that done personalized. Yes, because I actually have seen one in the streets of Milan, but it's one. And definitely they pay tons of money to have it done.

Keith Recker: But it becomes a bit of a piece of contemporary art at a certain point, almost. Yes, it's lovely. So the last question that I had prepared for you, we already sort of answered. Is there a color that best captures who you are? So you're on yellow and orange, right? You're on yellow and orange. What was it before? How did it change? Right. Where were you before you had these conversations with very insightful people to begin to grapple with yellow and to some degree orange.

Judith van Vliet: A lot of blue, a lot of blue. The darker blues mainly. And funny enough, now I'm adding more color. Indeed. But funny enough, I used to wear around my early 20s, mid twenty, s a lot of brown and gray. Both colors that really stand for stability, structure, family. I have none of it anymore. I mean, literally, when I look at those colors I'm like I have a.

Keith Recker: Hard time imagining you.

Judith van Vliet: And brown actually, it suits me very well. Gray as well because a large part of my eyes actually I mean, they're blue, but there's a big gray part in them. But yeah, it's just not they were too grounding maybe for me. I'm a very free person. We say AnimalA. Yeah. I think those colors are literally pushing me down. I just I can't can't have them.

Keith Recker: No, you're a free spirit.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah, right.

Keith Recker: It's it's interesting, right. As as use of brown becomes more common in packaging, as you're mentioning this drive towards things that seem natural even if they're not, you're emerging into a new color zone. Sometimes that thirst comes early for people who are thinking about the future. So maybe the change is also a reflection of what you do.

Judith van Vliet: Probably. I think it is. That's how things are always connected and I know people don't tend to see that or think like that, but literally what you shine where your energy is at, it comes right back at you, so and that's the thing. We're a lot of black and wearing a lot of black, but it's the same with indeed what's happening around us and the external factors that are having a huge influence on our lives. They all influence us on a subconscious level. But I think the more people know about color and know how to work with color and play with color, I think that's going to have an immense change on people's personal lives as well.

Keith Recker: I do too. I do too. That this general economic moment that we're in will press for conformity and care. But this drive to feel seen and to feel like you're an individual will push towards more diverse choices and it'll be interesting to see how this shakes out in the next few years. Right? You'll be there thinking about it too.

Judith van Vliet: I know it yes, I'm already thinking about it exactly.

Keith Recker: As we close, right. Because we're coming up on time. What else would you like people to know about what drives you in this thing that you do?

Judith van Vliet: I think what a lot of people don't understand when they are picking a color or when they need help in picking a color, it's one of those questions that I always ask all my clients is what do you want to stand for? Who are you? What does your product stand for? Because I think a lot of companies are losing their identity, and especially I'm going to a little bit like burn my bridges here, but especially when you follow color forecasts, literally, that has nothing to do with your identity as a brand. It doesn't make you more forefront and you don't need to be a leader to lead and use color and pick a color. That's also another myth that a lot of people are thinking about. So when I work with my clients, I work more on brand identity, color identity, and sticking with that and going back to heritage of many brands. I mean, there's a lot of heritage brands here in Europe, but also everywhere in the world, and they're losing that connection with heritage. And heritage is not old. It is, however, who you are and what you stand for. And that can change over time, but don't forget about that. What I also feel is that I personally feel very strong about is that the whole trend parts, I think we're moving towards feelings and emotions and work issues as well. Wellness, health, the whole psychology part of color. That is where the future of color lies. And that is a longer term vision and that is on the rise for sure. It has to be, because we have no clue how to feel good again. And I think color can literally help a lot with that.

Keith Recker: I agree. And I'm glad you're there thinking about it and driving people into good choices. Driving companies and people into good choices. I feel better about the world, Judith, knowing that. Thank you for talking with me today.

Judith van Vliet: Thank you for interviewing me. This was actually rather nice. Yes, I am less uncomfortable.

Keith Recker: We can do it again any time. It would be really fun to do it again to revisit. Cool.

Judith van Vliet: Thank you so much, Keith.

Keith Recker: Thank you.

Judith van Vliet: So this was Judith Van Fleet from the Color Authority. Thank you for listening again to yet another episode. If you haven't done so, please go to Apple podcast, subscribe review and send us feedback on this episode. And I hope that you will be listening to the next episode coming out very, very soon. Thank you and have an amazing, colorful day.