Accessibility via Color with Erika Kelter

How can color be used to make devices more accessible, user-friendly without compromising the design? How important are sensory experiences in today's world and what role do neuro-aesthetics play in the field of CMF.  Erika Kelter will share her thoughts on how we may use color, material and finish to create a more sensory experience in a tech world. 

As a Colors, Materials and Finishes Design Specialist Erika continues to foster her life-long passion for creating multisensory experiences through materials, colors, light, and texture, and understanding human sensory-emotional relations to objects and artifacts.

Before obtaining an MA from the University of Arts and Design in Helsinki, Finland, Erika had already gained a strong background in crafts by studying ceramics, glass blowing, goldsmithing techniques, and textile design. After graduation she worked in the arts and culture realm as an artist, teacher, and producer before her career as an CMF Designer.

Erika has over 15 years of experience working for brands such as Nokia, Xbox and Microsoft Surface, building quality, comfort, accessibility and sustainability through neuro-aesthetics and materiality.

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Transcript

Judith van Vliet: Welcome to the Color Authority podcast. This is Judith podcasting out of Milan, Italy. Today I'm going to be talking to Erica Keltor. She's a color, material and finish design specialist, continuing to foster her lifelong passion for creating multisensory experiences through material, color, light, and texture. Understanding the human sensory emotional relations to objects and artefacts has over 15 years of experience working for brands like Nokia, Xbox, and Microsoft Surface, where she's keen on building quality, comfort, accessibility, and sustainability through neurosthetics and materiality.

Judith van Vliet: Good morning, Erica, and welcome to the Color Authority. You're calling in from Seattle. How are you today?

Erika Keltor: Oh, I'm wonderful, thank you for having me. It's great to be here.

Judith van Vliet: I have had the podcast now for, I think, two years. I know you're also a listener. We just talked about it a little bit in the introduction that we just had. And I've been asking that same question to everybody and I'd love to hear your answer to that very first question as a warm up to our conversation. What is color to you, Erica?

Erika Keltor: Well, of course, I had heard that you always have the same question, so I've thought about it and at first I was thinking like, okay, color is perception or emotion. But really what I think now is that color for me is communication. It is almost like a language of its own because color can be super informative or it can be almost poetic in aesthetic point of view. For me, also, just personally, color is just such a versatile thing from being from Finland to moving to Seattle, having worked in a lot of places, a lot in Asia, for example, how the same color in different light in different continents, it just kind of changes completely. So yeah, I think that color is a language of its own and it's all about the communication, but it also has to do with where you are in place in time and even in how old you are, how you perceive the color. Yeah, for me it is really a language. I love languages and I speak many languages on my own, but I also.

Judith van Vliet: Language do you speak?

Erika Keltor: I do speak Finnish. That's my first language english. My father is Swedish, so I speak Swedish as well. A little bit of like German, a little bit of French, a little bit of Spanish, just kind of as Europeans tend to know a couple of languages.

Judith van Vliet: So yeah, that is true. And then now obviously you also speak the language of color.

Erika Keltor: Definitely. I don't know, maybe that's my first language.

Judith van Vliet: And the other day somebody asked me, I speak six languages and somebody asked, so in what language do you actually dream? And I'm like, that's actually none of those six. I probably dream in color.

Erika Keltor: Oh, that's wonderful.

Judith van Vliet: We both work in color, obviously most people actually not everybody on the podcast directly works with color. But you definitely work with color directly. You are a CMF. Well, you're actually a CMF design specialist. Can you explain what your definition of CMF is? Because there's been some talking of CMF on the podcast. But I think CMF has taken on a new journey over the last couple of years, definitely.

Erika Keltor: And during my career of 15 years, it has definitely changed my view on what CMF should be or could be, or what's the versatility of CMF. I actually don't have like, I didn't study industrial design. I studied to become an artist. I was doing textile arts and some ceramics. And then by surprise, my neighbour asked me if I would be interested in trying a career on Nokia mobile phones. And I ended up in the industry. So I entered the whole CMF design not knowing at all what it is. So just very enthusiastic and very passionate about learning more. For me, CMF is obviously colors, materials, finishes. It is like specifying those three things in specifications for production. But I am also advocate for sensory user experience as a whole. I think that colors, materials and finishes cannot be addressed without understanding. Also, for example, sound. So all materials have sound. Metallic surfaces sound very different from like leather surfaces or plastic. And finishes, they change that sound. So that all the acoustics of material. But it also goes to, I mean, how different light conditions affect or impact the look of color, the look of different finishes. So I think it's a very kind of overall understanding how your brain works on looking at things, or feeling things, or hearing things, or even smelling things. We don't necessarily always consider the smell, but it is almost the absence of smell that is important for devices or packaging. But at the moment, I think that's going to be one of the areas that will maybe also change because some of the bio based materials, they have a distinctive smell to it. So if you have packaging that is maybe wooden packaging, and you open it up and you get this kind of like puff of smell of wood, it can be a really nice experience. Or if it's kind of out of place, then it might not be that nice experience. So I think CMF, all in all is just very versatile experience of everything sensory, indeed.

Judith van Vliet: And that was actually what I was going to ask you. What is sensory user experience? But you just explained that very well. One of the first information that arrived to our brain is smell. Of course that's information. But obviously if you buy something online, it's not there. You have to wait until it comes in your home. But it's interesting how you said the absence of smell, how that influences a purchase or what relationship you have with a certain object.

Erika Keltor: Yeah, and I think this whole area, I have been working a little bit with some neuroscientists that are really interested in this area and smells used in space design more like using in a fresh bakery, kind of like odors or just fresh flour or fresh laundry. But I think that this is going to be something that might be coming more to. Usually these kinds of trends. They enter the consumer electronics through automotive. Automotive is already kind of on this, you know, the new car smell. So that's a thing.

Judith van Vliet: Leather and the textiles indeed, don't know that leather doesn't smell like that. It's actually I know, which for me was a total killer. And obviously I worked in coloring leather as well. So I know what the wet end smells like. Trust me, you don't want that in your car.

Erika Keltor: Yeah, I know. I have a textile background and I work with raw leather. It's not very nice smell at all.

Judith van Vliet: Hence them obviously working those leathers so that you have that new car experience. Indeed, yes. I think sound is also very interesting. There's a lot of people that are surprised and I bet you have that too. And you say what you do, they're like, there's a person doing color at a company and then I'm like, yeah, that actually is quite a big thing lately. There's people that do sound. There are car companies that close the car door until it makes the right sound. Vacuum cleaners, the same thing. Sound is something also that I think has become next to smell. I think that is something that also is obviously because of all these senses. I think that's big as well. Are you working on something like that or have you worked on something that really connects within your field? The sound and the smell?

Erika Keltor: Yes, and definitely the digital sounds as well because many of the sounds that we are using in consumer electronics and automotive as well, especially now with electric vehicles, they are digital sounds, but they are added to make the user experience feel more natural. So, for example, electric cars, they are too silent to be safe. So the car sound is actually digitally generated. And for example, Vivian has been working on using natural sounds like sounds of birds or water as an inspiration for how they create the sounds on their cars. And I've been doing the similar kind of thing. So just being involved in sound design for all kinds of experiences. So I was working for Surface audio devices and they're definitely the whole experience and how different indications of what's happening, what you're touching, what is happening when you're using the different interfaces. Sound is a very important part of that information flow. But it also needs to feel natural, not just having we have so many beeps and alert sounds around us. So I think that moving into something more natural and that's also it's kind of intertwining even more with Haptics as well. So you get a Haptic feedback with the sound and with the visual. So it's all kind of like weaving together in a very interesting way. And I think that those are going to be some of the areas that are going to be the future of sensory UX and the future of CMF as well.

Judith van Vliet: What role does color play in UX? How do you, for example, when you're working on these projects, what you just explained, you're working on the haptics of a material, the possible sound, even the smell of the raw material. Obviously that is inherent. I mean, I'm one of those persons that smells things as soon as she gets it. But what role does color then play into all of that sensory experience that you are creating as a designer?

Erika Keltor: Yes, that's a very good question. There's a lot of to do with the color and the usability of interfaces on digital. However, my realm is the hardware and the kind of physical. And there I have been very interested in learning more about the accessibility of color, how use of color can enhance the experience of using devices, how it can guide you. But not only that. Obviously if you have a red button, you know that it's for something really important and that's just a heritage kind of a thing. It doesn't even necessarily have to do with the actual accessibility of the color red, because red is not very heritage color of us being aware that something needs to be seen. Although, for example, vision impaired people, red is not necessarily the best contrast color to be highlighting something. So it's not really an accessibility color. It is perceived accessibility or perceived function of things. But I think this is one very obvious area that we know certain information. We know what green means on a button or we know what red means. But for me, it's also really important for people to understand what they are interacting with. Let's say I work with headphones, for example. So just to use different hues of same color, even whether it's gray or whether it's red, just to give your eye a place to go and a little bit of understanding of, like, okay, these are the places that you're supposed to touch. And this is where you feel comfortable putting your hand. Or this is this soft material. This is the cushion that goes against your skin. And if it doesn't look like it is comfortable, then you feel awkward using it. And of course, it doesn't only be about it's not only about color, it is also about finish and all the other kind of material choice itself and such. But color can really calm you down or give you just a sense of humanness or more technology or this is where the interfaces are. And especially with some kind of a new hardware that people are not used to, it's really important that you give them those cues that gives them confidence to interact with different devices.

Judith van Vliet: So it's almost like color and functionality and user friendliness as well. Because if you are having this new device and you're not quite sure. I mean, I don't read instruction manuals. I have to be very honest. I'm one of those starts with the buttons and then just see what happens. But that's exactly so. That's also how you create a greater accessibility through, of course, the haptics and the materials, but also color. You lead people towards the use of that particular device.

Erika Keltor: Yes, definitely. And I think that color is not only about the information, and information doesn't only come through those things that you point out something, but color also it needs to be purposeful. You're very aware that, okay, if you put something that is bright white against your skin, there might be some challenges. It might get dirty. And if the surfaces don't look comfortable to do that, then you might feel awkward or you might not feel at ease of like using a device, a wearable device, for example. But also color needs to be delightful and captivating. It needs to be something that gives you joy. And I think that that is just as much about the usability of being happy to use devices. We use so many devices every day. We spend so much time with our earphones or microphones or laptops or phones that if every time you pick something up and it annoys you, it's a lot of annoyance. But if every time you pick it up and it delights you, it's a really nice feeling. And it also is about longevity and sustainability of using devices that if you really love them, you want to take care of them and you use them more. And it makes more sense for us to consume those kinds of or, you know, use our money to buy things that we that bring us delight and joy and are also a good experience and enhance our productivity or just our life in general.

Judith van Vliet: I think one of those key points, indeed, what you just said is what you said also in your bio. Your goal is to create something that's a delightful user experience. But you also just mentioned other topics that are very important, which is, yes, user friendliness, wanting to use it without being scared that you're going to break it or make it dirty, the comfort, but also the longevity. The longevity is key, especially when you look at the pricing, of course, especially of some devices. When you look at colors and longevity, how do you feel we should be picking colors, thinking about longevity? What does longevity on such a device, what does that mean to you in color wise?

Erika Keltor: I do believe that it is the same thing that if you love something go towards that. Don't be afraid of color and don't be thinking that you should just blend in because of longevity. And there's also a lot of modular design and design ethers coming up that I think that the personalization over the lifespan of your devices might become more of a norm that you can maybe change a part or you can use a skin to kind of revamp your device. And kids do this a lot, or teenagers, they put stickers on everything. And it's not that you can look at something and you're like, okay, it's ruined because it has stickers on it. And in a way it is, but it's also personalized and loved, so you have to appreciate that as well. So I think that's a really good question and really good thing to think of. Like, how can we make people appreciate and personalize their devices more in a way that it still kind of serves the design? Are there tools that we can give them? And also because repairability is becoming much more important and that will lead us to build devices in a way that actually some of the parts could be replaced. So if you're replacing that part, maybe you can replace it to a different color or similar kinds of things. Modularity, personalization, customization on some level, I think.

Judith van Vliet: Because a lot of people, when they think about longevity colors, they think about neutrals, they think about gray, about white and black, obviously, perhaps they think about the primary colors because they seem to always come and go, whether we're in the Bauhaus movement or not. But it's interesting that indeed, when you buy something that you love in the color that you love, you're less likely to get rid of it. You're more likely to keep it because you're loving it, literally when you create your vision. So you're asked like, Erica, where you're going to design a new device. This has come out of, I don't know, market research, focus groups. What is your product vision and where does color come in? Do you already immediately have a feel for color, or does color come a little bit later in your design and visioning phase?

Erika Keltor: Well, during my career, I have really specialized in looking into product lifecycle and product portfolio, level of strategic design of color and material and finish. So I usually work on the very beginning of a product where I don't only look into the core color of the core products, but also over the lifespan. Or if there's, for example, I was working years at Xbox and there's a whole category of limited edition and special edition devices. And then you have to in that very beginning, understand the colorability or different decorations that can go into the materials that you're choosing to use. Also you need to understand how different finishes work with those different decorative technologies. So for me, color comes in in the very, very beginning. So I start with a couple of just core colors, maybe black and white, just to understand the manufacturing process in those different colors, light colors and dark colors. They are very different in what comes to the challenges of quality, for example. So you really need to understand that what is the whole range of the lifespan of that particular part or particular device that you're working with. So it almost starts with the color, very material, lead design. And then you have to address everything that comes along the way, like from tooling finishes. You have to understand how those change over the course of the lifetime, how often do the tools need to be refurbished. You just have to understand the whole cycles of that part, even on a part level. So everything starts with the color and.

Judith van Vliet: Finish, I'd say, and also with you. Also, the way it sounds when you're now talking about your process is that you need to know the limitations early. Because if a certain color is going to give a limitation, you need to change it and you need to change it quick. And you need to understand whether it's going to look good on glass, for example. And I think we all know that with the glass finish, not all colors look great.

Erika Keltor: Yes. And definitely this is sometimes I've gone to the business and I've said to them in very early stage that, okay, we need to make up our minds if we want to do this device in black or white or if we want to, because it might be that the same tooling doesn't work or same finish doesn't work for both colors. It's almost every time that I get this kind of like blank look of like, why do we need to know it now? And then you have to educate and especially with sustainability and for example, reducing some of the processes, like not using paint, for example, it's very in the beginning stages that you define the things that define also the quality over the manufacturing and also the lifespan of the device or the part. So you really need to understand where you want to go, what is the direction, what is the marketing plan, what is the portfolio that you're using or where this particular device is going. And you just have to sometimes you just have to make a commitment on color on a very early on phase.

Judith van Vliet: And color, especially for, let's say then, electronic devices, was not always a big thing. I mean, we're both born and raised in Europe. So my first cell phone, obviously was in Nokia, and I think that was for the majority of the Europeans when I was 18, that was my first cell phone. And you worked at Nokia, of course, in Finland. It was a company that made a huge turnaround when they inserted color at certain points. I mean, you've worked there, you even won awards. Can you tell a little bit about Nokia as a brand? Because I think that was amazing what they did. And I think still they made the best phones because literally I have them. They never broke down, they never did, they never cracked. Have two of them, I don't use them anymore. But it's amazing and how you look at the function of but also then how they entered in this color era. Can you tell us a little bit about those changes?

Erika Keltor: Yeah, I think it started out about just giving people choice. It was this idea of like, you want to give people what they love. You want to make that connection of like, okay, this is a device that you touch all the time. So you need to have that connection and that love and how do you build the love? And a lot of it started with just personalization so you could buy a new cover and buy a new color. And even that it was kind of like gimmicky, but it was also very fun. It was very fun way. And I think that the fun aspect of it was that what made it really successful. It was the first kind of like very high tech device, but it's for everyone and it's fun and you can personalize it. And it's not just like something that don't touch or be careful. And I think that also the perception of quality and that you can confidently have your mobile phone with you and even if it drops, it doesn't break. I think that that was just kind of like changing in people's mind what high technology was and who you can give it to. When I was little, I wasn't allowed to touch our stereos or anything my dad perceived as valuable. So it was really, for me, the first piece of technology that I touched. And it was mine. It was for me to use. So very like a personal connection there. And I think that was definitely what Nokia tapped into. But really the color and the material became so important through also this perception of quality, or not just perception, but actual quality. Because what Nokia did was make the most of the materials that they were working on and really perfecting. For example, how especially on the plastics, they made plastic products that were really premium and they were really the first ones to do that from just like how you manufacture things and how you put them together, but also how the quality was like after five years, after ten years of using. And one of the really important things was that we wanted to make sure that even if your device, if it fell on the floor, even if it cracked, you couldn't see the crack. So all the plastic, for example, were throughout the plastic, it was dyed. So the color went all the way through the material. It wasn't just a layer of paint on top of the plastic, but it was all the way through. And the manufacturing quality was also perfected. Really?

Judith van Vliet: Yeah. But this speaks to the fact that I still have them and I can distance myself from them. I haven't still, so they're still here. I agree on the fun part. And I think color is very much part of that. Color is very much part of yes, being a little bit more daring in producing such devices. But it's also about the fun part now then obviously you move to Microsoft and Microsoft there was again I would imagine a completely different strategy when it comes to color and experience strategy, wasn't it?

Erika Keltor: Yes, it was a drastic change because at Nokia we had a Portfolio CMF strategy and it was very strong and it was like everything was connected to everything where I started at Microsoft and especially on Microsoft Surface side of things, it was really the ethos was like best for the product. So if one color looked good on one product, then that was the way to go. So there wasn't this kind of like a template that would be used throughout the portfolio and it was very different way of thinking things, but I wouldn't say that one or the other is better. It was just very different way of thinking how to apply design altogether. But what really changed my way of working when going to Microsoft was that suddenly I had all these amazing people around me, which was also at Nokia. There was amazing people but there was suddenly all these human factors scientists that I could learn about how human brain works. How it reacts to different finish feels or different color. And there was this model shop in the same building that I worked in and they were able to prototype everything in a second and it was just amazing resource. And also the fact that everything was very data driven and very science driven. So not only the things that I knew that work for design and CMF, I wasn't just using them, but I was also learning the science and the data behind it. And really to make a case out of like okay, this is what we should do because this is how it affects how people perceive things and this is how people feel when they touch this surface. And that was really amazing and eye opening and a different way of approaching CMF. And that really got me into thinking CMF as a sensory user experience.

Judith van Vliet: So you had even more information available to think about before you would actually start your design process. Interesting information, especially when it comes to obviously our brains. But what is the most important lesson that you learned when it came to color or CMF in that field? Like what was a moment that you're like okay, this changed, this was the tipping point.

Erika Keltor: There were so many moments and there still are. One of the really interesting moments was that there was a lot of effort on accessibility and inclusivity. And for example, the Xbox adaptive controller was just coming out. When I joined Microsoft and Xbox, I wasn't part of that project, but I learned a lot of just watching what was happening there. And one of the things was this kind of like accessibility and inclusive design. Really there's a lot of devices out there. There's a lot of keyboards or mice or different kinds of skins or stickers but actually the colors that were used on those didn't make any sense because I tried to deep dive into like I want to understand accessibility in color. And what I learned that color was really implemented on a lot of things like Dyslexia keyboards, for example. It was just differentiating, like for example, different function keys and different functions. But the color itself wasn't accessible. So it didn't have like if you have any kind of difficulty in seeing different colors, for example, you're colorblind, you can be colorblind in various different ways. The contrast of those different key colors weren't enough that you would actually see the contrast. So there was very little of color understanding in that space and that really amazed me and that was really where I got really enthusiastic and passionate about like we need to change this and we started to work towards understanding more. But it was also a very big learning curve in there is really not one thing that would serve everybody because especially accessibility is such a diverse thing. So it needs to be thinking of so many different needs because accessibility is not only like vision impaired or hearing impaired, it's also about learning difficulties or it can be about mental health or neurodiversity. So different people need different kinds of solutions. So it's really the same way that Xbox adaptive controller, it's called adaptive because it needs to adapt to different needs. So that was really on the core and understanding how could color be used in a way that it would also adapt to different needs. So that was really, for me, maybe the learning and the big tipping point there was that I understood that there is no one right thing to do. So you need to just understand the versatility of needs and versatility of people. And also I think that comes back to the emotion of color that everybody has their own favorite color and there's no answer of what is the favorite color of the world. It's a stupid question even right?

Judith van Vliet: It would be too easy. That we all have that same color is so complex not because of only its access, its adaptability, its function, it is also because it taps into our emotions which is at a whole different complexity of color.

Erika Keltor: Yes, definitely. And I think this is one of the trends that is now rising that we are understanding more the neurodiversity of people, not just those who have some accessibility need from like having ADHD or learning difficulties or Dyslexia or being on a spectrum, but also the neurodiversity of people in general. And that comes to again, there's no one design that can be perfect. So the personalization and to be able to kind of change the way that you use your interfaces or your devices, like even being designing for audio space, people wear their earphones. Or headphones in such different ways. Like earphones, somebody only uses one, somebody uses two, somebody only in their left ear, someone in their right ear. Somebody wants to take one in their hand and fiddle with it. And if it has controls in the earbud, then that's going to be a problem if you want to fiddle with it. And same with the headphones, people wear them in the weirdest ways. I've also worked on gaming controllers. Same thing you perceive like you first think that okay, everybody's going to grab the controller in a way that it should be in a way it should be grabbed. But people hold and use their controllers in a variety of ways. It is amazing how creative people get when they are using something like that.

Judith van Vliet: But even at the dinner table, how people hold their spoon or their fork and their knife, definitely, even when we look at cultural contacts, chopsticks, I mean, it's completely different. There's no not one way. And that's because we're human. I think that's the very reason why that happens. Of course. And you just tapped on into a very interesting topic that I've been studying and talking about and it's so mind blowing, I think, and it's huge, which is neuro aesthetics, right? So it is literally that is what we're talking about. What is it that you Erica, like what taps into your personal feelings? What is that color, sound, music that really would make a product or a space perfect for you? It's fascinating. Can you talk us a little bit through that topic and what you think is next within that world?

Erika Keltor: Yes. Once I got interested in the sensory UX or kind of like the broader thinking of CMF, that really led me into understanding better the neuro aesthetics. So I believe that neuroaesthetics first started on the architecture. So it started as an understanding of the science of how people feel in a space, whether it's a man made space or a natural space, but how your brain responds and how your feeling responds to a space. But really I do believe that the same thinking and same understanding applies when it is about anything. If it's a chair, if it's about headphones, if it's about car, car is a small space. So again, everything in that space again circling back to sensory user experience. Everything. All the sounds, all the smells. Everything that you touch. How you feel when you sit on a chair. How you feel when you put on your headphones. How it feels against your skin. How it feels after wearing 1 hour. It all has to do with this neuroaesthetics. Not just comfort, but just kind of like how your body responds and how your brain responds to all that is happening around you. And this is really something that I would love people to understand more and also put some more thought into because it is about well being, it's definitely about how do we make sure that people feel good with everything happening around them.

Judith van Vliet: I think there's two bigger examples of what they did in Neuroaesthetics and it's obviously Google with a space and Ikea with the heart scanner. I think those are some of those examples that over the past couple of years we've seen. But obviously with Neuroaesthetics I think it's beautiful that there are companies that have found a way with scientists to make us understand when we are comfortable and where we're not. Sometimes we do know, but honestly speaking, people have lost a little bit touch with what they feel, I think over the last couple of decades probably already. But there's a fine line then of course with privacy, with data and data collection and I think that is what is currently not bringing forward what Neuroaesthetics could be. When you talk to well being and health, when do you think when this is really going to happen is, I think a different topic. I think nobody really knows, but do you think that we can get it right and that we can actually use it just for health and well being? So exactly what it was intended for?

Erika Keltor: I think there will be many, many steps towards that. So when people talk about new technology or for example now, what's happening with AI, they always imagine this kind of like far future. Whereas I think that we need to also think of the steps that we need to take from now, what is existing now towards that kind of future that we want to build. And those steps are super, super important because they might take 20 years sometimes. I think that one good thing that can be happening now already, and is already happening is that all these different sensory input and output channels can be built together much better with the use of AI. So how your visual cues and your audio cues and then your haptic cues, for example, how those work together on a device so that there is, like, this kind of a rhythm or a language or some kind of different levels, how it works in harmony together. At the moment, it can feel like, okay, there's a bling coming here, and there's a buzz coming to my body from my smartwatch, and there's, like, something's happening all the time, but it doesn't have a rhythm or it doesn't have a sync. I think that this is something that can be really enabled by AI. So that with the use of AI or assistance with AI, we can build more coherent experiences. So that everything that is happening and that is kind. Of supposedly guiding you in your everyday life whether it's like navigation or it's just using of your PowerPoint or anything it can be more harmonious and that can really be enhancing the well being. So I'm not that much talking about well being apps or measuring your heart rate or anything like that, but just kind of like making the experiences, those sensory experiences that we surround people with, with all devices that they are using. Making those more human and making those more pleasurable and delightful and working in this cohesiveness and harmony together instead of just creating all this noise, not just audio noise, but all this visual noise and audio noise noise and Haptic noise around us.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah. No, I think that is indeed something that I think in the current world I'm not sure if it's COVID or maybe it's just me coming of age. I think sounds and so many things that are thrown at you and at your senses. I actually do think it's largely COVID. Or maybe COVID made us realize how tired we can get from our surroundings. Especially when you're traveling, for example, or you are in restaurants that literally have not thought about the acoustics, for example, or the color and how the light is influencing, for example, what you're eating and how you're feeling. I think this is a topic that will be bigger in the next couple of years for sure.

Erika Keltor: Yes. And so many things kind of pivoted during COVID I don't think that things changed. I think that it was just kind of like finding these edges of things like what can we tolerate? How much screen time can we tolerate? And then we had enough and now we want something else. It was also really interesting how the whole audio culture changed. And this is also why I think that audio and Haptics will be really important in next upcoming two to five years, is that our culture really changed. We didn't used to always listen to podcasts when we're walking. We didn't use to always listen to something. And also reading books. People are reading books more because they can listen to them. And that has even changed the way that books are written. So there are books now written so that they are written to be narrated, not to be read necessarily. And I think that's really interesting and really inspiring how all this kind of culture that has been supervisual, there's been just so much visual culture of like TikToks and Instagram. People are getting tired of those. And some of that is actually moving towards audio. I think that can be really interesting. It can bring back much more expression from language and use of language and it can also enable totally new kinds of ways of communicating what could be the future audio messages or what are the devices that we use for audio. I think that's been really interesting to follow how the whole audio culture has bloomed over the last couple of years.

Judith van Vliet: That's true. That was also one of the reasons that in COVID I started the podcast tired of screens, visuals, trend presentations online. I was just like okay, we need to but I still wanted to do color and I still wanted to also talk about color. Why can't we talk about color without seeing it. But sometimes using imagination is actually so strong. Read a book and then you watch the movie, you're like, that's not how I had imagined the main characters. That is about imagination and it is about bringing people along. A journey, I think, an experience and a sensory journey, just like what you talked about.

Erika Keltor: Yeah. And I think that this is all like people some people are saying it's not the same thing to listen to book than to read it. And I agree, I 100% agree it's not the same thing. You use your imagination in a totally different ways. But I do believe it's a richness of different things happening. It's not just like either or. So I do believe that it is somehow I love it. I think it's super delightful. Podcasts bring so much joy into my life. Like I hear so many things that I wouldn't have time or I couldn't find online, all these kind of conversations and it also makes me more connected to people. And I'm the kind of a person that if I find if I hear a podcast and somebody is talking there who I feel is fascinating, I just reach out to them. I'm like, hey, I want to be your friend, I want to hear more.

Judith van Vliet: I think I bought more books because I'm listening to podcasts of people that then have perhaps interviewed somebody that I love the podcast and then they've written a book and then I buy the book. I still read physical books, I don't tend to listen to them. But it's fascinating how podcasts have actually gone through the roof through COVID because we are looking more into that and that sensory experience.

Erika Keltor: And it's also language in a way. I feel that this just makes my brain buzz because I love language and living in US. Why I started to listen to audiobooks was really that I don't have access or I was always like hauling backs and backs of books back from Finland because I love reading in my mother tongue. But then during COVID I wasn't going back to Finland that much and then it just got cumbersome of like, okay, it wasn't making any sense. So I started to read online books and then also listen to audiobooks. But also what I find is really beautiful when you know a couple of languages is that you can read or you can listen to a book, and then you can go and if you feel like, okay, I'm not sure how the author has actually kind of like how they've thought of what is the original language of this? And then you can go back and you can actually see what is the original one. So you don't have to just kind of go with translation. You can also go back and find the different dimension of another language on that same sentence, I think, and I've.

Judith van Vliet: Always said that and people are like well, that's easier for you to say, you're Dutch. I said yes or no. But not all Dutch people speak six languages. I think the richness of speaking languages. Also when you do color, when you do trends, like in my case. But I think generally it broadens your view of everything in the world and especially the senses and how you name them, and also how some languages just have culturally different ways of using certain senses, such as food, color, design. It is a whitening view I think, that everybody should take on.

Erika Keltor: Indeed, yes, definitely.

Judith van Vliet: Erica, it has been wonderful to talk to you, but thank you so much for sharing all your deep experience in user experiences and accessibility to color.

Erika Keltor: Oh, I did. This was really invigorating and a really great start for my week. So thank you so much.