Brutal Honesty with Zuzanna Skalska

With Zuzanna we talk about just everything that is strategic design thinking to how to get out of our comfort zone to color-matching in plastics, to being the only woman in the room and how businesses need to understand that their brand is made of people. And all that while being brutally honest.

Zuzanna started her career in 1998 at Philips Design and for years she contributed with SignalS of Change analyses to international visionary design projects. Then for almost 15 years she was involved in Design Management & Trends consultancy at a leading Dutch design consultancy Vanberlo (today part of Accenture Industry X.O). Since 2014 she has been a founding partner of 360Inspiration, working for clients from various industries, including many blue chips and market leaders. Zuzanna's core expertise areas include Up-Front Innovation, Industry’s Cross-fertilization, SignalS of Change and Strategic FutureS Thinking. Her research and consulting activities concentrate on 8 crucial industry fields: CE, DAP, Home, Healthcare, Mobility, FMCG/Retail, Urban and Finance. She works closely with CEOs and decision makers on strategic scenario’s development as well with R&Ds/in-house creative teams on specific projects. With almost 25 years of experience Zuzanna skillfully translates her knowledge into actionable innovative programs, using many of her own, self-developed tools. Simultaneously, she has been engaged in promotion of creative industry as Member of the Board and then Advisory Board member of Dutch Design Week as well in the international design education, as a lecturer at TU/e University in Eindhoven and at Parsons School of Design in New York. She is a co- founder of School of Form – a design academy in Poland.

Skalska has been a jury member at many prestigious design competitions like IF Design Awards and a keynote speaker at many recognized business conferences and economic summits. She is an active journalist and contributing editor to leading design and lifestyle magazines. In addition, together with her partners Greenhat Innovation and Blue Media/Autopay, she publishes an annual book - a comprehensive volume on SignalS of Change research.Her professional and public activity has been often recognized not only by the prestigious world’s design awards. In addition, in recent years she has been granted prestigious titles, such as one of the 50 most influential women of Eindhoven region, one of the strongest contributing expats in Eindhoven or one of the best professional speakers in Poland. Born in Warsaw, Poland, Zuzanna has been living in the Netherlands since 1992.

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Transcript

Judith van Vliet: Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the color authority. Today I'm going to be talking to Zuzanna Skalska. She inspires leaders and decision makers to pivot their perspective on long term vision by cross fertilization of concepts, ideas and solutions from different industries. She operates worldwide as a strategic upfront innovation expert and advising businesses, public institutions and NGO's. In her way of working, she borrows and mixes ideas from different places and markets and connects people to help businesses see beyond their comfort zone. Her no nonsense approach gives companies the insights needed for future business development. Zuzanna Skalska is brutally honest and fast speaking. A designer by degree and acclaimed keynote speaker, a connector who just loves her work, she brings speculative thinking to life in a clear, distinctive and passionate way. Good morning, Zuzanna. How are you? And welcome to the color authority. I'm so pleased to have you with me.

Zuzanna Skalska : Thank you very much, Judith, for the invitation. I'm fine, really. It's a good moment, definitely, for somebody who is working with the trends in the future.

Judith van Vliet: Yes, I know. We were just discussing that we always see each other in Milan, in Milan design week. This time we did not see each other in Milan because Milan is getting busy and busier. So then I just said, I'm just going to invite her to a podcast and then I get to see her.

Zuzanna Skalska : Yeah, it's true because we were just chatting about it. Exactly. The Milan is becoming absolutely the vivid circus. Something like kind of carnival of everything, but not design. It's more about the brand, marketing slogans, location than really about the content.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah, yeah. That is a pity indeed. And then the lines. The lines are just driving me crazy.

Zuzanna Skalska : Queuing is a crazy. It's a crazy.

Judith van Vliet: Hopefully they'll be able to do something about that. Are you going to clerk a well next week?

Zuzanna Skalska : No, no, no.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah, I'm skipping that one too. But I'm also trying to see what are interesting fairs that I know. Milan is still Milan. I know, but I think there's a lot happening worldwide.

Zuzanna Skalska : Definitely the dutch design week in Eindhoven. Yeah, it's still, I think, very nicely said. Rest in peace, Marcus. First he said that you are going to Milan to see what will be in the shop in two years, but you're going to Eindhoven to see what will be in the future. And this is exactly, I think, still Eindhoven. The strength of Eindhoven is that it's a little bit speculative, a little bit discussion. It's about prototyping the future, about the cooperation. I think it's a more. Less about the beauty and aesthetics and more about the critical thinking. Yeah, this is what we need.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah, I'm definitely going to Eindhoven again. I was in Eindhoven last year and I'm definitely going again this October. And I think Eindhoven indeed is an interesting fair because, because of the academy. And you are obviously, you were a student at the design academy in Eindhoven, so it's not, as you know, I know you. You have a special feeling when people talk about dutch design and of course, Eindhoven as well.

Zuzanna Skalska : So, yeah, definitely, you know, it's. I was one of the first foreigner students on the academy back then. The design academy was not. Not yet design academy Eindhoven. We were academic for industrial form paving when I left the school back then. This was, I think, Lidewij Edelkoort moved the school from a beautiful, picturesque place in the Elsuntlan in Eindhoven to the witte dame. And this was the moment when the academy got the very nicely chic and english name Design Academy Eindhoven. I'm very much the iwe, how we call it in our slang, and I'm aywe here. And this is, you know, it's not only because from the, you know, it's. The nineties was for Europe, in the one hand, a very good economic time, but on the other hand we had giant outsourcing. This means a lot of manufacturing industry moved from our cities to the. To Poland, you know, the whole eastern Europe and far east. This means the end of nineties was this transformation moment from the old industry to the new digital industry. And this was the moment when exactly our city, Eindhoven, we suffer really a lot because our city was industrial city. This means almost the health of the city was close because of the manufacturing and the big plants. And when the Philips moved everything, we were left with the abundant buildings, very old post industrial buildings. We were very heavy weapon concrete, which you cannot just destroy very easy. That means that they had to just be preserved. And we had a very intelligent, our city mayor, Robert van Heisel, who helped us to really, you know, kind of. I think designers were like first plants, you know, kind of. We were. We were first growing within this old buildings, you know, a lot of studios, design enterprises. And I think this is exactly what's happened with the dutch design week because we were busy with this event. And this is not, you know, without strategy to be like Milan or something. No, because we want it. We wanted to have it. I was, for almost more than seven years, I was the management team together with our friends this was really amazing time to see how design changed completely. The whole city.

Judith van Vliet: I think Eindhoven is the perfect example of a very small city. Highly industrial, very Philips oriented. Most people.

Zuzanna Skalska : Yeah, we were oriented completely.

Judith van Vliet: We worked with, for Philips, and, and suddenly it has made it a big move. And I think, I think it's growing. So I think, yes, October design week is definitely a place to be later in the year if you want to do something.

Zuzanna Skalska : Yeah, the second half of October.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah, yeah. So talk about, indeed the fairs talking about everything. But obviously we're going to talk also about color because that's obviously what I do mainly. And it's something that you also talk a lot about. You look at a lot. But personally, Susanna, what is color to you?

Zuzanna Skalska : You know, it's, to me, color is, to be very honest, is just a light, because where is no light, there is no color. So simple. Yeah. And it's what kind of light you have. This is what the perception of the color you have. And this is what I learned very much within the Philips design when I was responsible for the plastic chips releasing when you have to, you know, match one product which was built from the different plastics, different, different kind of plastics with the same color, the same you. This means you have to match that color with the three different lights, you know, and you have to wait when. How the, how the plastics and the color, they aging different. This means, you know, after a few years, you will see the difference between the colors because of them, of the. Of the light, you know? And this is what I really learned back then in the practice that the color means light, really light. Everything about light.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah. That's why obviously, at night, we don't really have color. But I think especially the color matching, what you just said is so true. It's obviously, it's been my world for ten years as well, and I still do a lot of this. The color matching on different materials. And especially when it's. It's about plastics, which obviously is a great cereal, but the age as well.

Zuzanna Skalska : Yes.

Judith van Vliet: Complicated.

Zuzanna Skalska : It's a really tricky one, especially when you have, you know, there's a different companies, plastic companies. They make granulates. This means one makes the heart granulates, another one for the soft, another for the, you know, moving, etcetera. This means, you know, you never have, you never work with the company, one company, and you're doing everything. This means you have to come very often, travel through the different companies and constantly, you know, saying, what will be the main body color? You know, which color you have to take as a, as one which provides the, the color feeling and this color perception. Yeah, it's really interesting, you know, how to this whole discussion, you know, with the. Definitely on making of master chips. It's, it's a very, you know, it's sometimes people kind of, I remember this back to, to the, to the, to the, to the Philips design. You know, we were just, you know, that the girls, everything was about girly thing, you know, this kind of the colors, materials, the kind of the, all the same f. Is kind of girly thing. Yeah, maybe the girly thing. But, you know, it's, it's a, it's a **** responsibility because if you choose the wrong color, you know, if we're speaking about the industry, this means, you know, you are, you are shipping, you know, 200 containers which are, and the content of the container is just ****** color which nobody will buy, you know, and this, this is a major responsibility. Major responsibility because the first, what people see is exactly this perception, you know, this perception. And if the perception is wrong, the whole product is wrong. Even if it's the best high tech, the most ux, everything. But in the first perception sucks. Everything sucks. Yeah.

Judith van Vliet: Because the second information that arrives to our human brain is shape with color. So if it's the wrong color on the beautiful shape. Yeah, it doesn't matter. It's not going to sell.

Zuzanna Skalska : Yeah. It's just, it's not matching. Exactly.

Judith van Vliet: And this is indeed. So you're, you're passionate. I think everybody is getting that. You're passionate about what you do. You passionate even still about what you used to do.

Zuzanna Skalska : Yeah.

Judith van Vliet: You've changed a lot in all these years of your career. Where does that passion come from? Is that a typical polish thing? Because all my polish friends are passionate.

Zuzanna Skalska : I don't know, you know, of course, this is definitely part of my character because definitely, you know, from my being very curious, I made just my job so simple, you know, very, in the, in a very simple way. But this will be maybe very cliche, but it's really, really, you know, my mother, I'm the, I'm a second generation of designers because my parents, my father and my mother are both designers. My mother is interior designer and my pie is product designer and my pie is always being freelancer. This means he's doing really everything. My mother was working at the Institute of Polish Design and she was managing the whole group and she was responsible for the, they was calling back then tendance not trends, but tendense. Then dance about the kitchen, everything what is around the kitchen and I remember, you know, all my childhood my mother, you know, was allowed because exactly we're talking here about Poland and about the seventies, eighties and nineties. My mother was allowed to travel a lot within the Europe, exactly. Milan, Paris, in Germany, in a lot of different cities just to scout different tendencies in the kitchen, in domestic appliances, in the interior. And this is what I always remember, you know, in our house, in my mother studio, always a lot of prospects catalogs, you know, and this is, and my mother always were working with the slides, you know, the carousel, Kodak slides, what she was presenting the tendencies from the different firs. And I think this is, I think it's amazing that every time when I'm coming from fir, I can always speak to my parents, always spur about what is going on. My mother completely understand everything what I'm talking about and in which way, you know, and I think it's, it's a naturally, really I took over what I, I maybe unconsciously learned through my whole childhood and I made, I just went further with this.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because you're not only looking for trends right now, which I know the whole trend watcher thing, I mean that's just like a podcast per se, wherever that area is going, you know, but you are strategists, which I think that's exactly what companies are looking for, among many other things. And I love how you try to get people and businesses out of their comfort zone. How do you get people out of their comfort zone? Especially because I imagine you work with people that are in sales, marketing, R and D. How do you get them out of their usual way of thinking?

Zuzanna Skalska : Oh yeah, it is, this is not really easy. And I think it's, you know, it's, you have to always push them. Yeah. And this is my, I always, you know, before, because this is how I start, my, my cooperation, I always showing them my, my presentation, you know, this is kind of my way of blow, you know, their mind before we will talk about something, you know, because it's a, you have to really pledge a lot of different information. I always start with the disclaimer that I will talk a lot of absurdity. I will talk a lot of, you know, about things, what they were completely denying. And I'm telling them, you know, it's a healthy, it's a very healthy reaction on it because absurdity is everything. What is against your knowledge. This means if something is for you, absurdity, this means maybe you didn't know more and you investigate. And this is the gate. This means they are this means if you're making this kind of this way immediately, that this means if you are making, you know, if you are not really taking this everything seriously to really talk about and discussing about it, this means you are not taking very seriously your business. And this is what another thing is that the old companies, they really wants to have. And this is like a branch of the business trends. This means if you working with, I don't know, the Fridges company, I want to have susanna only the fridges trends. If you're speaking about the cars, we only want to have the car trends. If you're speaking. If you're working with the companies, I don't know them, the vases and I don't know, storages, we only want to have the vases and boxes trends, you know. Yes. And this is, you can see immediately that those people. Because the. There is maybe, you know, there is. I don't believe in brands. Brands are made by people. And if you are falling in love in brands, this means you falling in love in the freedom of thinking and making of the people are behind the brand. That's why, you know, you can see that people come, they go, you know, their new executive is coming and is going, you know, the new design director is coming and going. And you can see that brands are exactly feeling this. This means, you know, that once loved brand, you know, after a few years, it's like, huh? You know, it's not. Not emanating with the same passion what what was before. You know, it's it's. It's me of maybe really the brand and we constantly talking about the brand, but this is not the brand. There are people. The people are making the brand because you, we especially we designers, we falling in love in the brands because we're feeling the freedom the people they have in their work, they doing. And this is exactly what, what is with this with my clients, you know, I can see where they narrow minded we are in this silos of thinking, you know, that they are very much bonus oriented. Everything is about the end of the year, about the budget closing. It's a curse. It's really a curse of the business. The bonuses should be completely get out the bonus. The executive should get in the five years. In the five years, the business is going good. They have to get the bonus, but not every year. It's really a curse in the business. This is what is about. You have to really break people in the way that if you are with us, if you are without us because you are thinking different, this means you are the problem of this company. You are the problem of the company, you know, and this is the, this is what is, you know, thinking different is not, is good, but, you know, being the break, you know, this kind of the something what not allowing go further is a really wrong. It's a really wrong, especially if somebody has the power of decision making in the company. This is, and this is for me exactly the working with the strategy through design. This means, you know, with my creative, with my creative eye, with my, with the way I see everything on them on the market, you know, everything really, from the human behavior to the different way of having products of this, of the services, culture, you know, how the politics change everything. It's a really interesting to see how this, everything is really. There's nothing, nothing stays alone. This means you cannot just be just the business and the trends within the domestic appliances. Because domestic appliances is within the kitchen. Kitchen is without the food. Food is without the living. You know, everything is. It's a one thing what the whole big context, what you have to really understand.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah. Everything is connected. And I think that's what a lot of companies don't understand. And I think that's an issue also. What's, I think going a little bit back to what we saw in Milan, there is not a lot of long term thinking. It's just about, oh, it's again Milan. What are we doing? We need new colors. We need new products. Most of the time, that's not even possible. So they just change colors. So when you perform long term thinking, when you help people to do long term thinking, how does that apply to color? Like, what can color perhaps do within long term thinking? Because color, as we see it very often is short term. But I believe personally we have to go more long term also with color. But how would you see color helping in that or being a part of that?

Zuzanna Skalska : You know, it's exactly. I will immediately change the definition of my understanding of the color. And this is, I will get to the hour the senses where we're talking about this perception that it's not, it's not about just the color. This means, you know, you're just not taking the spray and spraying and you're changing the color. You know, it's about a lot of things. This means if you're changing the material, it's already even the same. The same spray will look different because absorbing of the color will be completely different. Down before. If you're changing the material, for example, to the natural material, this means you don't have to spray aluminium, because aluminium will be already the matte silver. This means, you know, if you're using the bamboo, this means you don't have to fake the wood because you already have the bamboo. You know, this is, this is exactly the way this means, you know, I remember how in PhilLIps we were constantly, no, this was, this is even from eighties, we were, we had a wooden tv and we were spraying wooden tv to see, to look like a metal, you know, after we were spraying the plastic to see more the plastic like a metal. You know, it's a, it's a doctor. We were spraying to look like a piano because it was, was about high glossy and, you know, and now we have. Yeah, and now we cannot. And now it's everything about natural. This means we have the wooden, aluminium, you know, we have the plastic. It's really plastic, you know, the frames, whatever. And this is funny, you know, this is, this is. I think it's not a time to fake. This means if you're using the color, use the color, which is the true color. And this is exactly, completely different way that we were thinking the last decades, you know, what means the true color? Why you using the color, how the color will age, can we repair the color, how the scratch will look like it, everything. This means it's that. I think that this, in long term thinking, is more about the thinking with the company, how their name, their product will be standing or going through the time. We are talking about if we want to have the products, which of course will be not something for now and just for five minutes, we are talking about the brands and products which are really investing in the long term thinking, investing. Because if you only changing one screw, if you're changing just one small part of the material, is a massive investment.

Judith van Vliet: For the company, which often requires changing a mold, changing a design. I mean, in general, a mold, everything.

Zuzanna Skalska : The whole process. Yes. Yeah, completely. The finding the right supplier. Yeah, it's, it's, it's everything. It's for the, for the end consumer is just like. But it's a really long process. Yeah, it's a long process.

Judith van Vliet: We should stop chasing something that it's not. So we should stop mimicking having wood look like plastic and the other way around.

Zuzanna Skalska : Yes, absolutely. We should stop faking be true, you know, whatever that is. That is. That's why I call it this for me is just having a true color. You know, it's exactly the way what should be, you know, the true color. You know, I really admire on the BBC, you have this repair shop the wooden hat, you know, the shot, becoming people with the old products, you know, which, of course, very much meaningful because of plenty legacy things. And what I really like very much, that those people, you know, their metal, wood, fabrics, people who are restoring this, everything, they trying to find the true color, you know, how, for example, when you just open them, the old chair, you know, and everything, the whole velvet, you know, is completely used. Looks like a pistachio. Pistachio. Old pistachio colors. And when you just take this out on the other side, you have the, you have the piece of fabric what never saw the light, you know, and you have the bottle, you know, the bottle green velvet, you know, but. And this is what, what exactly is, you know, that if you want to have the same chair, this means you have to buy this pistachio color. But the original color was completely different, you know, and also the scratching the metal and searching what was the true color when in 1850, you know, this product really left the company. Yeah, it's really amazing, you know, and I think this is what. And even we even don't know why, but, you know, it's a lot of pigments, you know, around what was. What was within the close distance from the company, kind of the minerals which are in the pigments were perfect in the, in the symbiosis with the, with the materials, you know, it's a lot of things to do which we completely stopped to think about it.

Judith van Vliet: We completely have. And I do see that some smaller companies, designers, they're going back to that. We see obviously a lot happening in Mexico, but also in some parts in Asia, in Africa, where they're again using those natural pigments, those natural minerals. But of course, in big companies, even phillips, it's like big.

Zuzanna Skalska : No, no. It's a really crafts, it's a really, really kind of the craftsmanship is we completely killed within the big industry. Yeah. And within this big industry, we completely killed the craft within us in the CMF, because we are kind of. Exactly, you know, we have to really, the best is spraying just one time because it's the cheapest.

Judith van Vliet: And also you hear from sales and marketing which colors sell. So you, as a designer, you propose colors that you know are gonna work. They're the best colors for this. The material, the texture, the design, the shape. But then sale says, yes, but white cells, much better.

Zuzanna Skalska : Yeah. The problem with the cells is that they have the information from the excel. From the past. Yeah.

Judith van Vliet: Not from the.

Zuzanna Skalska : Yes. Are you talking about the future, which is not yet on this excel? The problem exactly.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah. Yes, but how do you look at color trends then? Because we've just talked about long term colors and how color should evolve in being more longer term. But everybody still is doing color trends.

Zuzanna Skalska : Yes, of course. But you know, it's. I think color trends is for me like the shadow, maybe it's a really weird. Weird to compare it, but it's a shadow of everything. What's going on. For example, if you see what's going on now in the politics, you know, in the whole polarization, when you have this far right and far left, you know, it's. I remember last year in. During the London design festival, I was visiting our whole location where the Tom Dickson is and the St. Maarten. And there was a big demonstration of the students of university in London. They were demonstrating about that socialism back, you know, that they were going with the big red flags about that we are end of the capitalist capitalism is killing our planet. Back to the socialistic way of thinking that Marx books are now the one we have to read. Because I'm coming from Poland, you know, and this was for me like, oh.

Judith van Vliet: ****, we're going back.

Zuzanna Skalska : I have this retrospective feeling that we are something is again, you know, with this rat and imagine, you know, and this was the last year Moroso with diesel, with this rat as red can be, you know, really the ****** red. And this year again, even more ****** red, you know, and you can see this means, you know, it's that this is the ****** red, you know, this really the ******, ****** red. I don't know if you can see it. It's really kind of the red red. If this is not just because, you know, somebody, you know, just had too much paint and just painted and. No, it's a. It's a way of. This is action and reaction and this is, you know, for example, two years ago was the 50 years of smiley. 50 years of smiley and everything, you know, if you last two years ago, it's a lot of yellow because we needed this yellow after the COVID you know, and this is. We need it because you can take the mask and you can smile. It's just. I'm joking. I'm just telling you very much in the shortcut because if you observing a lot of different economics go politics, the technology, you can see a lot of similarities. What explaining why. Why we having this color. This means this is not just taking out of the air. Because color direction is just not a rain, you know, it's not just fold. Oh, and this is it. No, it's a very, very deep meaning in the different. In the different culture and in different politics movements. You know, it's a different, different way is reacting on the red in China, different ranking. Exactly. In Russia. It's something what you really have to understand the background context. And that's why for me, the color is constantly shadowing the whole go political movements.

Judith van Vliet: Color indicates what's happening and how we're.

Zuzanna Skalska : Yes, definitely. Also, if you go for that now in the Biennale, in Biennale in Venezia, you know, it's a colorful, powerful, colorful, full of folk pigments, decoration. You know, it's a festival of the colors. This year. Yeah. The two years ago, Venice was very sober, very cold, very dark, very decadent. Completely different, different way. You know, only two years between. And they are completely different change. Of course, this is the. Because of the curators. But anyway, this is exactly what it's about, you know, somebody's creating things. Yeah. Conscious or not conscious.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah, yeah. I love your brutal honesty. I love that. And I know this is a key asset in what you do and what your business is. I think it's also a bit of dutch culture because people, they're always very direct. How do you think this is a true asset and how is it sometimes not working for you?

Zuzanna Skalska : I grew up also, you know, as a career one in a very, very male culture. You know, every manager, every executive, every account owner was just a man. And also my colleagues, you know, most of the industrial designers are just guys, you know, and I think it's. And, you know, they are allowed to be honest. You know, guys are really, especially the dutch one, are very much direct. And I think this is something what unconsciously I took from them. I really learned a lot from. From my dutch client and dutch colleagues that you cannot be just girly, naive person and just saying that you don't know, you know, you have to know what means, you know, the football game. Because a lot of metaphors comes, for example, in the dodge business from the football. This means you have to know what is the stand of the points, you know, which. Which team is winning, what not, which is now the leading footballer or not. Because if you don't understand this, you don't understand the business and the metaphors within the business. And I think it's exactly this directness. It's sometimes brutal. Exactly. Because you have to. This is, you know, it's maybe I don't like to waste my time on the clients where I have to learn them from the very basic Alphabet. I would like to immediately write the poem yeah. And if I have to explain with the capital letters, you know, and with big reading, writing proposals, what I can do for them, it is for me, waste of time.

Judith van Vliet: Why would they otherwise hire you? They should already know who you are and that's why they hire you.

Zuzanna Skalska : Yeah, and this is exactly, you know, maybe this is a little bit my luxury that, you know, that somebody tells somebody who tells somebody and. But very honest, you know, is that very. We are just save your ***. This means you. This means, you know, it's. Even I had that I have to guarantee. This is what once client asked that I have to guarantee that the work we will do together, the final project, will win the gold EF Design award, you know, and for example, you have to. What will be that I have to write down on the paper what will be deliverable from the creative workshop, you know, and for example, that I have to guarantee that this is what we will work on will be the success on the market, you know, and, you know, and this is also, of course, this is the. This is the. Like a tennis, like a poker, you know, this is. This is the game. I'm doing this opposite, that they have to guarantee that the people who are sitting with me, they will be gates, Branson, Musk. And you know, I'm giving the name because with those name I know that will be the market. Success on the market.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah. You need the right people in the room because otherwise it makes no sense.

Zuzanna Skalska : Yeah. This means, you know, this means I have to guarantee something, but I'm getting people who. I don't know, never heard about, I don't know what the people do, which position on the company they have, what kind of influence they have, what kind of freedom of speech they have, you know? But I have to guarantee, and this is exactly, I think my brutality that I. Pity of my wasting of my time. Exactly. I'm saying, don't waste my time, because on this time, when I will write for you my proposal, I can work with the clients. Who really wants to change.

Judith van Vliet: Exactly.

Zuzanna Skalska : Yeah.

Judith van Vliet: Not a lot of companies. I find it always funny how people invite you to their. They're big decision rooms. Yes, but they don't want to change.

Zuzanna Skalska : Exactly.

Judith van Vliet: And they want all the answers. But they're not. They just technically want you to tell them what they were already thinking.

Zuzanna Skalska : Yes.

Judith van Vliet: Doesn't really work. How do you get people to move beyond that or when they're stuck? I think sometimes also I do a lot of workshops as well. I know you do many. How do you get people unstuck?

Zuzanna Skalska : It's. Of course you have. You have completely, you know, the best one is confront them. To confront them. And I have different, different tools, you know, for example, I remember, you know, and this always worked that I remember that we. I will not drop the name of the company, but this is a big, big, big brand. And chief of the design was really good friend of mine. And she said, susanna, I have sole problem. I have 20 people in my team of the design team of the company. And the more than half of the people are above 50. And they really. They dreaming about retired more than about to give a **** about what we doing third and how to change and everything. What I will say everything is, this is not possible. We will not do it. This is not our company. This is not possible. And I'm fed up of it because, you know, I have to deliver something. We have to really change because this is what it's about. I said, you know, it's the best way is to give them something tangible. Let's go to the third, okay. You know, and those. This company was in the homey interior accessories. And I said, we will go for the back then was in the era in Frankfurt. And we will go to the car. To Frankfurt. Now everybody car. This is not our business. We are going on the fair for our narrow thinking, our tunnel, the branch business trends. I said, this is not true. Because cars are made from metal. Your things are made from metal. You're spraying cars are sprayed plastic. Things in the interior is, you know, everything is exactly the same, but maybe a little bit bigger. Yeah, but completely different business, you know. Oh, with the bus to Frankfurt and whole day we were in Frankfurt, you know, we were through also. I remember back then was the first Citroen cactus, you know, and we were through the whole different. Every literally, you know, even we were open Skoda to see how the different storage solution work. They designed very nicely the new click click system in the skoda. How to keep the things, you know, in the back car, you know, really every small detail. We were talking, looking at. We were discussing a lot of pictures. And after we were printing this, when we were back, we printed all the pictures and we were starting to talk about. Because this is how I work with my clients also with the design DNA. This means the shapes, material colors, details, the patterns, the weeks, the lights. And we made this. Everything on the clusters, you know, after the clusters, we were talking. What is interesting? What the guts feeling you telling that is interesting. Not yet about connection to the company. And during this, everything we were doing the most difficult people, the people who are absolutely, I'm not doing, I'm not changing. Those people were the one, the most passionate, those people completely, you know, they click. ThEy Click like kind of 180 degree. They were the one who were the most horses who are really taking those changes, you know, on their shoulder. Amazing, amazing. You know, and this is, you know, also I'm taking my clients, for example, to the futurium in Berlin. Very nice museum. This is, you can, we can walk with the guide of without. But anyway, there you can spend four or 5 hours to read, to see and discuss what that means for you, what you think, because it's what I told you, that I don't believe in the brands, I believe in the people. This means what you as a person understand what will be the future. This means how you see you as a human being, your brand for the other human being in the future. And this is a big change within the client that this is not about just that I'm a very small, some kind of small adjustment. I can also change within something within the company.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah, sometimes people feel they, they don't matter, but they can bring along big.

Zuzanna Skalska : Change, of course, but this is, this, you need the good, good manager who will allow you to, you know, to stretch your wings. You know, it's a really, really difficult.

Judith van Vliet: One, what I've, what I've noticed over the last couple of weeks. But even just, you know, I always read free magazine every day. You know, I get the daily newsletter. It's all about mental health, mental wellbeing, color psychology. So color is applied in spaces so that people feel better. I feel this is huge, and we're only at the start of it. How do you think this is going to move forward? And how do you think color can be part of that? Because I think, I mean, besides that, you've worked for Phillips, which obviously is very much healthcare and well being, but I do think this is a huge topic that is going to be even bigger than we can imagine right now.

Zuzanna Skalska : You know, it's. Yeah, definitely this year everything was about, this is very nice word, neuro aesthetics. I really like this so much. It's a new kid in the blog, but it's, you know, I graduated with the project called my view on the world of Wicca. Wicca, it's a Druids religion. Wiccans. The white witches. Yeah, Wiccans. And I really, very much from the beginning, I was really fascinated about the four different stages. Not stages, different levels. What we have as a human being that, you know, you can be very kind of to the point person who are just, you know, is happy with that tangible senses. Another one is a more spiritual and is in this astral beliefs. Another one is very intuitive. Yeah. This means from zero to 100, you know, you, the more you intuitive, who more you don't questioning about the gods. Because you know that there is something what you cannot explain, but you feel it. And the last is the divine, the goddess. You know something, what we as human beings never be there. This gave me then the way how I also work within my clients and with how I work with them, with the color that you need to understand that technology. This is what was the last 20 years. Technology was the main investment of the company. But what happens with the technology? Technology gives our amazing flat screen, with amazing shark colors. And with the. If you're happy, you have the haptic recognition of your touch, of the sounds of something. But exactly what happens now that we are missing so much, so much, because we are we also, as a human being, we invested too much. And that as well the companies were invested in the technology. We also as a human being, we invested too much ourselves into the same screen. I remember the end of nineties already Phillips, because. Yeah, sorry. Phillips is only very much short way. I worked within the Phillips something like three years after I was working for 50 years at fan Berlo company. But then in the end of nineties, when I was the intern at Phillips, we already at Philips, we had the possibilities of transferring the smell through the Internet. You still needed the cartridges, you know, the cartridges which connected of the smell. But this was back then very expensive. And I remember the discussion that the future of the cinema, due to this technology, that we will have some amazing technology, that a lot of. A lot of cinemas will be die. And the purpose of the cinema will die, because people will not go to the cinema. This is true. A lot of people are not going anymore the cinema, because you have such a beautiful screen at home, with the Dolby surround. This means you don't have to have. You really have to go to just to drink cola and eat popcorn. This means, you know, what is the future of the cinema? And this was exactly that we will invest. This is what set the big cinema companies that we will invest in the sensorial qualities. Exactly. If you have the blood, you smell blood, it will be the fire. You will smell the fire. If they will be fighting, you will also move, you know? But when they did this to the people as a test, people were ill. People were really got ill. And this is how to find the balance, you know, between that, you know, everywhere. When you go to the supermarket, when you smell the bread, it's not a bread, it's an artificial spray which goes through the. Through the air filter, unfortunately.

Judith van Vliet: Oh yeah, this is. It reminds me of the whole. Of the whole hema worst disaster that apparently this famous sausage is actually not smoked.

Zuzanna Skalska : It's not smoked. It's an additive as taste which is added. And now this taste is forbidden through the European Union. You are not allowed to add the additive which fake the smoked because it's a very dangerous one.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah, it's crazy how far we've come from everything that. How far we've moved away from our senses because of technology, but also because of the industry and seriously, the **** that they're putting on our food and in our products. And we don't even know what we may buy or not anymore because it's all.

Zuzanna Skalska : We even don't. This is what like was about this true color. We even don't know what is really the true taste of milk. What is the true taste of the walnuts, you know, because what is the true taste of the sun dried tomato, you know, because everything is just faked. And this is what exactly what it's happening that we. Because we lost the truth of in ourselves. We are romped with a lot of fakes and those fake. And our brain maybe not even brain, maybe even our soul. We are not prepared. We were not born to deal with so much sensations. What we getting. This is one of things what's happened with our health. That's why, of course the health industry after the COVID showed just where going wrong, you know, what's going wrong. And in other way we are definitely in Europe. Just means, I would say even the whole western civilization we are aging. There's more great people than the small babies. This means that we have to rethink about because we will not be younger. This means what kind of illnesses. And we already know what kind of illnesses we will get, you know, it's how we prepared ourselves, how we can proactively prepare ourselves for our elderly time. Because we will, you know, if we will not have any accidents. Because even the cancer is now that they call it the cancer that this is not the killer, but cancer is the chronic, chronic illness. Because it's a perfect business for the big pharma. They don't. They want you to constantly, you know, every day, you know, till end of your life to take this medicine. It's the best business ever. I would of course, pharma is doing very well, you know, for us, but I think Pharma is also one of these gangsters.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah.

Zuzanna Skalska : Or, sorry, the context makers on the planet. And this is what, that's why the wellness industry, this is really wellness industry will play really giant role because how you sleep at night is how you will work during the day. This means you, I think we will be definitely responsible for a lot. This means you really have to change your bed. You know, you have to really have a good bed because this is everything. You know, what shoes you are wearing. You know, this is how your posture is, you know, everything. We are now slowly responsible for us, ourselves. Look, every smartwatch is designed.

Judith van Vliet: Design.

Zuzanna Skalska : Everything is designed. Yes. Every smartphone is constantly quantifying your health. And maybe in the future even will send this data to your employer, even to your assurance.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah.

Zuzanna Skalska : Yeah. Yeah.

Judith van Vliet: I think there already are, but we just don't know it.

Zuzanna Skalska : Yeah. And maybe I think we are still in this kind of. Yeah. Yeah. This discussion. Definitely.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah.

Zuzanna Skalska : Of shoot or not.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah. Oh, Susanna, I could talk to you for hours. You have, you're just this huge brain that just knows so much and it can share so much with. With the world. And I thank you for being part on the color authority, and I hope that maybe one day you'll be back to talk to us again.

Zuzanna Skalska : I will see your invitation. Yeah. Super. Thank you very much for having me. Nice questions.

Judith van Vliet: I hope you enjoyed this last episode. If you are a fan of the color Authority podcast, please let us know by reviewing and rating our show on whichever platform you're listening on. The next episode is coming out next month, and in the meantime, I'm wishing you a wonderful, colorful day.