S4E11 Honoring Identity with Jessica Bantom

This is a conversation every designer should be listening to as Jessica Bantom and I address the elephant in the room, designing inclusively for a more equitable world in which culture, identity and humanity is honoured. But how may you start that conversation at work or with your client? Jessica speaks from her own experience and research when she says, listen and just ask the questions to that person that indeed is so different from you.  What role does color play in honouring identity?

Jessica Bantom is a Diversity, Equity, Inclusion & Belonging (DEIB) practitioner and workplace strategist whose mission is to enable individuals to take immediate actions that create meaningful outcomes for historically excluded people. A graduate of the University of Virginia and Marymount University, Bantom is a skilled management consultant with over 20 years of experience, a compelling speaker, and a certified facilitator and coach with a passion for helping people and organizations activate the values of DEIB to become more culturally competent and thrive in our increasingly connected global economy. Bantom is also active in the interior design industry as an interior design and color consultant and as an engaged advocate committed to promoting DEIB in the industry and in practice. You can learn more about Jessica and her book, Design for Identity: How to Design Authentically for a Diverse World, at JessicaBantom.com.

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Transcript

Judith van Vliet: Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the call authority podcast. Today is going to be an interesting conversation as I'm going to be talking to Jessica Bantom, who is a diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging practitioner and workplace strategist whose mission is to enable individuals to take immediate actions that create meaningful outcomes for historically excluded people. Yes, we're going to talk about the big elephant in the room. We're going to address questions that people are often scared or afraid to ask. She's a graduate of the University of Virginia and Marymount University. Jessica is a skills management consultant with over 20 years of experience, a compelling speaker, and a certified facilitator and coach with a passion for helping people and organizations activate the values of diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging. One of the main reasons is that these organizations and these corporates need to become more culturally competent and thrive in an increasingly connecting global economy. Bantom is also active in the interior design industry as an interior design and color consultant and as an engaged advocate committed to promoting all of these values in the industry and in practice. She also wrote a book, design for Identity how to Design Authentically for a Diverse world. So let's have a listen to Jessica Bantom. Good morning, Jessica. Good morning.

Jessica Bantom: Thank you for having me, Judith. I'm excited to be here.

Judith van Vliet: You are calling in from Washington, right? Or Washington, DC. Or Alexandria.

Jessica Bantom: I'm actually in Buoy, Maryland, so about 30 minutes outside of DC.

Judith van Vliet: It's a nice place. I like Maryland. And I like also Washington.

Judith van Vliet: It's an interesting place also for design, isn't it?

Jessica Bantom: It really is. And there's a lot of variety here and it's a really diverse area, so that makes it interesting too, especially for what you're doing.

Judith van Vliet: But we're going to get that in just a second. As you know, the first question is the same for everybody, and I look forward to hear your answer. Jessica. Color, what is color to you?

Jessica Bantom: Color to me is energy. I feel like I've always experienced color, like not just looked at it, but actually felt it. And I think that even goes back to when I was little, looking at that box of 64 crayons and just getting excited about the variety there. It's always been something that I felt and something that excited me. So it's always just been a passion.

Judith van Vliet: Something a part of your daily life, right? Daily life from what you wear, what you do, what you buy.

Jessica Bantom: Definitely what I buy. It's funny too, because I had a really big nail polish phase in my teenage years, and I realized I wasn't really buying them to do my nails, I was buying the colors. And that was at a time, too, and I'm sure I'm dating myself when nail colors came in a much wider range, like they were starting to come out in really crazy colors, and I realized I was drawn to them, but I didn't necessarily wear them. It's just a thing about color. And I realized that with clothing, sometimes I just really react to a color and just had to grab it, and then I would wear it like, two or three times. But in that moment, I was reacting to the color.

Judith van Vliet: People often ask me, obviously, that very famous question, which I don't really have an answer to, like, what's your favorite color? I don't have a favorite color. I know what suits me well. I know what I'm attracted to, but I have color crushes, and those are like, shorter crushes that I have. So what's your current color crush?

Jessica Bantom: Actually, the color I'm wearing is my current color crush. I was actually going out of my way to try to find something in this color. And I'm like you, too. I go through phases. I had a green phase before this and then a blue phase before that. But what I'm consistently drawn to is usually more saturated colors in general. But lately, this has just kind of been my thing.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah. So like a dark fuchsia, right?

Jessica Bantom: Something intense.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah, something that gives energy, just like you said. If there's something that came from your childhood, which I hope for you, that was a happy period. I just did a podcast with a girl that actually indeed has a way to help us go back to happy moments. And the colors that at that moment were present are the ones that we are also attracted to. So it looks like the colors that give you energy or your happy colors are high on colors or saturated colors.

Jessica Bantom: Yes, definitely. And I think actually, this was one of my favorite crayon colors too. Now that you mentioned.

Judith van Vliet: Know everything is traceable, evil are color preferences, but what you do is mean. I came along your profile, I think actually Patty Carpenter obviously introduced us. I did a podcast with Patty as well. And you are a Diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging practitioner. Now, I have to be honest, most of my listeners are in the United States. They may be aware of what it is that you exactly do, but I can assure you we do not have a lot of people like that here in Europe. So can you please explain the audience what it is that you do? How do you define yourself?

Jessica Bantom: Sure. And that is a great question. And I think there are a variety of definitions of that, what it actually means to do this work. To me, diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging is basically about culture transformation, and it's about honoring humanity. So from the culture transformation perspective, I work with organizations who are essentially adopting these values, and they want to know how to show up as an organization that values diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging. So they value that. There are different lived experiences that people have. They recognize that based on history, based on a lot of different aspects of society a lot of different influences, even from place to place, that people are not necessarily treated the same, they don't have access to the same opportunity, rewards, safety and security based on some elements of their identity. They want to be the organization that makes a change regarding that. This from a very idolistic, generalized perspective. They want to be an organization where people can have a similar experience and they can thrive regardless of their identity. So that's what I work with them, that's what I partner with them to do. So that could range from touching on a multitude of different aspects of how their organization operates and runs from human resources and policy, making sure that there are things in place that, as I said, reinforce that concept, that everybody has a similar employee experience and has access to thrive there. But it's also to me about focusing on the culture as well, the culture of an organization. What are your accepted norms? What are your accepted behaviors, and how can you evaluate those the way they are and then consciously transform them, if and where necessary, to make sure that people are having a positive employee experience in your organization? And then to take that a step further, looking at how you show up as an organization to the customers that you serve and the clients that you serve, the other organizations you partner with, and how you show up as a corporate citizen, making sure once again, that those values translate into how you show up there as well.

Judith van Vliet: You must be very busy.

Jessica Bantom: Yes, it's a lot of work.

Judith van Vliet: There's a lot of work to be done because now that I'm listening to exactly what you're doing, there's huge issues here in Europe as well, and even more so in the country that I'm living. I don't think, however, that let's say going back five to ten years ago, were there a lot of people that do what you're doing? I doubt that, right?

Jessica Bantom: Well, actually, I have met people who've been doing this for 30 years and more, which I will honestly say I didn't really think of this as a profession. I had an idea of the importance of it. I've been in the corporate world for over 20 years, so I've heard about it, but I didn't recognize that there were people who have been doing this as their career for so long. And I think with everything that happened in 2020 following the murder of George Floyd, that kind of burst on the scene for a lot of people in terms of their awareness of it and obviously the discussion about it. But people have been in this fight for a very long time. I am glad that there has been a surge in more people actually getting into it and more attention being brought to the profession, although some of it hasn't been in the most positive light. But I'm proud to see the people who are in it sticking with it because it is still necessary, even if it's being politicized and it's being attacked in so many ways.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah, there's a lot of people out there that say that. Obviously they use that term, which I can't even hear it any work woke or that a company is woke. And I'm like, Are you truly understanding what that means, and are you truly applying those values? And that's where you help out people. I mean, you don't help them to become vogue, obviously, but it's like the term that most people are familiar with, obviously, right now, that is, you're helping people to be aware, but also to create equity for technically everybody that is in a corporate.

Jessica Bantom: Exactly. And I think it's actually disheartening to me to see how words just get used and weaponized and it takes away from the whole essence of what we're talking about. So, just like I said, I try to emphasize, number one, like, Di B isn't just a thing. It's not an initiative, it's not a project. It's a set of values. And the work is about how we show up as an organization, as individuals who live those values every day again right. And everywhere in every aspect, not just at work, but in any space that we're in.

Judith van Vliet: So the topic that we want us to discuss today, which is also immediately the title of your book, which is The Design for Identity, which I think is going more into, let's say, in detail. I mean, there are things as, obviously, values, equity, and belonging, but design is a huge part of that because designers, obviously, at least most designers that go to school, obviously they want to create solutions for existing problems. Right. Can you explain what Design for Identity really is and how do you help these companies apply that?

Jessica Bantom: Yes. So Design for Identity is really about the how to. So I will say there are a lot of design organizations, just like a lot of organizations in general, put out statements supporting social justice, supporting racial justice, especially back in the summer of 2020. And there were a lot of words said, a lot of pledges made and promises made, but then very little action. So that's kind of what sparked the ideas for the book and the purpose of Design for Identity, because I wanted to help organizations and designers translate that good intention and that desire into a different way of practicing design. And in doing that, in once again focusing on those values or having the values of diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging as your foundation, how then can we make sure that we are designing in a way that honors humanity and honors the identities of the customers that we're designing for? And I've seen that as a gap in how we're taught to design, even going back to our design education, back to university and everything, even back to.

Judith van Vliet: The crayons a long time ago.

Jessica Bantom: Yeah, exactly. Because even thinking about crayons now, they have a whole array of skin tones for crayons, and they weren't there when I was little. I know. It's like either peach or brown. So it does go back to our education where we are not explicitly taught to address identity with our customers, to explore that and have that conversation. Our frame of reference for design is also very Westernized and doesn't recognize that people live in different ways in different places. And a lot of what we're taught, even about other cultures, is through a Western lens. So there are just so many aspects that we don't get to that are very real about how people live their lives in different places and spaces. And if we're not taught that in education, then where are we going to get that? You look at how foundational our educational experience is. If we're not taught it there, then are we just counting on people getting on board with that once they're out in the real world? And I would say that that's not likely to happen because I've been in the real world and that conversation is still not happening there as well. So my desire was to try to paint a picture of what it could look like to explore identity with our customers and also among the profession, among our teams, among our colleagues. So that it isn't something that we just keep sweeping under the rug or it's not something that we are designing for based on our own interpretation of what somebody else's identity is.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah, so it's literally just speak up and ask. That's what you tell technically teaching people ask the person you have in front of you, or that you're designing for who they are, what they want, what it's like to grow up in their culture and apply that.

Jessica Bantom: Exactly. And with a couple of nuances thrown in there too. One being to not seek for confirmation of your narrative you've created about those people. So intentionally being open ended about those questions and also being open to receiving whatever they share and not looking to edit it not looking to judge it not looking to take out what you think is wrong or doesn't. Make sense, but really receiving it and respecting it and honoring it and saying going into this like you're saying as a creative problem solver and figuring out how do I incorporate that into what the solution is and honor the real, true meaning of it?

Judith van Vliet: And that's so hard because, first of all, people don't know how to listen, literally. And then second is indeed we all have our perception, we have our experiences from our past. So it's very difficult for each individual, not just for designers, to go past that and truly listen and be open to somebody who is obviously different from you.

Jessica Bantom: Right, but that's the thing, is if we have that awareness that that's what we do and it is what we do, it's natural, we can also then disrupt that. And it is just a matter to me of having the awareness and then committing to say, I'm going to do this differently. I'm going to at least give it a try. I'm going to be open to the idea that people live other realities that are different than mine in my frame of reference and exploring that and being open to it doesn't mean once again, you have to accept it. It doesn't mean you have to understand every little detail. It's not about you. It's about honoring the person and the people that you're designing for.

Judith van Vliet: Why is this topic so important to you personally? Not assuming again, because I can imagine, obviously again, and then I would be obviously answering for you, but why is it so important for you personally to write a book about it? Indeed, because that's what you did.

Jessica Bantom: Well, I think to me it's important that we take action just in general. So this goes back to that idea. For me personally, I really took issue with the fact that there were all these proclamations being made and there were all these revelations that were happening in different, even design magazines and outlets and everything. You're just like, oh, now we're going to lay it all on the table. We're recognizing that our profession is 90% white. We're recognizing that our sense of design is very Western focused. We're talking about the fact that we need to focus on increasing diversity in firms and then what? And I feel like I've lived my life thinking and waiting in some way for something to change. I've always been aware, especially in design spaces, that I am one of very few people who look like me in those spaces, in the classrooms, in the design association meetings and events, walking into showrooms. And I still get that glance up and down when I walk into certain showrooms now, like I don't belong, you know, very aware of it. I haven't let that keep me, obviously from my commitment to this profession and to doing what I do. But I also think that we can't keep ignoring that. The conversation in my book is focused specifically on the practice of design, but the concepts apply across the board in how we show up in any space in design. And it's been to me, I guess I just reached my own personal point of frustration in terms of the fact that we're not making progress. But then I kind of took it on myself to say, well, I'm going to at least put some ideas out there. I know even what I propose in the book, I know it's not the end all, be all. I know it's not the only answer. But I wanted to at least put something forth where if you read this book, you can't then say you don't know where to start. You can't unsee it. You can't unknow what has been put in front of you. So then it's on people to actually take an action or not, and I would let that rest on them.

Judith van Vliet: There's also a big point of no longer wanting to wait and knowing that if you want to get it done, you needed it yourself, but also a point of recognition and making other people aware that this is sometimes how you feel, and with you, many others.

Jessica Bantom: Right. And just putting ourselves in the shoes of our customers. If we really think about it, I wouldn't be surprised, especially in the residential realm, because it's so personal. I would not be surprised if there are clients who spend all this money to work with a designer. They finally get to walk into their newly designed home, and when the designer leaves, they start thinking, okay, I need to change that. I need to take that out, and I need to add this space in, because it's something they didn't ask about or something they didn't seem to want to speak with me about. And that shouldn't be the case that if we are paying as customers, if you are paying for a service, you should not have to edit yourself to fit what you think the designer's comfort level is, and you shouldn't have to edit yourself out of your own space. That's the exact opposite of what I think we as designers want our customers to feel as well. And I think we all go into this in a spirit of service. So we need to be open to serving people of different backgrounds and respecting what they want and who they are and celebrating who they are.

Judith van Vliet: How do you think in the world of design, how can a company or a designer, even that, is designing for a country or a space or culture that he or she is not from? How can they bring along those changes to apply identity and above all, inclusivity? Because I know in your book, you give them, like, a starter package, technically, you give them the questions that they have to ask themselves, but also to the people that are sitting at that table. Where do they even start? Where do you start? Yeah.

Jessica Bantom: Well, I think some of it is about even in the instance of a project, say you're working with a new client, as you mentioned, I provide questions to start asking the client themselves. I think that's really critical because, one, you're not working from a point of your own assumptions, and you're also not going into it with this feeling like, I have to understand everything before I even have the conversation. That, I think, is what's been holding a lot of people back, even if they do have the intention to have these real, genuine conversations. I think starting with what's important to that person or those people or those customers is really what can then inform you about what to investigate further. So you may have a first consultation with a client, you tell this whole story to yourself about who they are, or you pick up on a few things, and you were just like, all right, I'm going to take those cues and run with it. I think that's what we typically do. As opposed to saying, I'm going to go into this curious. I'm going to go into this and open the conversation to explore more about what's important to these people, not just how I'd label them, not just their occupation, how many people are in the house. My assumption, looking around of what their cultural identity is. But to really have the conversation and then be willing to take that, take the information you've received from them and then dig a little deeper based on the information you've been provided, not just what assumptions that you've made. I think that's really critical to have an open mind and to really listen. Like you said, I know it's something we all need to work on those listening skills, but to explicitly ask what's important to you about who you are, they're giving you the answers to the test in my mind. And then just take that information. Yes, you can then do some more digging on your own, take what they've shared with you and make sure that you focus your research that is pertinent to this project based on what they're sharing with you, and just go from there and be willing to go back and ask more questions. Because I don't think customers assume that designers know everything about their identity either. So if you go back to them and ask for more clarification, I think they'd welcome that, as opposed to you making assumptions and coming up with some really kind of performative or culturally insensitive or misaligned concept to provide with them.

Judith van Vliet: I think we talked a lot about this insensitivity, right? So in a previous call that we did, and of course, we talked about inclusivity, but we also talked about diversity and how to start that conversation because you're telling people, just ask, just start that conversation. But I think, like you said, there's a lot of uncomfortable feelings there because there's a lot of people out there that don't know how to start that conversation and because indeed, exactly like you said, they think they already should know or they have to know. But as you explaining your book, and also you as a person yourself said, just ask. Like, there's no such thing as a stupid question, even if I've had the question a thousand of times, but just ask, because I think you have some questions in the book, like examples, right, that people can use so that they're comfortable. But to overcome that threshold, that's the difficult part. Right. So to ask, for example, me coming from definitely a privileged world, the way where I was born, the way I look, I always feel that this is not the conversation I'm supposed to have because I am privileged. And that's why indeed, just like you said, then it's not who I am. Because otherwise I would not have this podcast. But I know that the majority of the people that I know would not have that conversation, whether they're designers yes or no. So what is that extra push that you give in your book that people overcome that hard part, which is generally just starting, right. Which is literally the first question, because the second comes naturally, right?

Jessica Bantom: So there are two things that come to mind. One is thinking about the nature of the question. So one of the example questions is, what about your identity would you like to see celebrated in this space? Which is something that I think anybody can ask. And it opens a space for people to respond in a genuine way because it is so broad. It's positioning the question in a way that indicates you're curious. And also that I was really intentional about using that word celebrate because there are so many things. Identity is another word that can kind of get there can be different connotations associated with that too, especially in this grand scheme of what Dei has been kind of lumped into and the ways it's been perceived. But framing this is something like, how do you want to celebrate who you are? It puts people in a different space to even think about what they celebrate about themselves. You might find that as challenging as it may be for you to get the question out, it can also take your customers by surprise a little bit too, because it's not something we commonly talk about. And it's also interesting when I have people do an exercise where I'm like, okay, I'm going to give you three minutes to write down everything about your identity, any descriptors, any ways that you see yourself. And I think people are often surprised when they have that time and space to even think about that. But that also goes to the fact that if we create this space, that conversation can go so deep and that it is liberating in so many ways because we get to think of ourselves in different ways, too. We're not just a skin color, we're not just a gender, we're not just a career. When we really get to think about it and we open that broad question about identity, we get to think about the things that are I'm very family oriented. I was raised in this city. I value x. But I mean, if we really get to think about ourselves and how those things can influence the design of whatever is being created for us, I think it creates this space for a lot of more positive conversation and exchanges to happen. Going back to the hurdle, I would have to say, too, you have to have an understanding of your personal why for doing this. And I will say, I can clearly state my personal why for getting into all of this work, into Dei and also exploring it in the context of design is that I want to bring about more positive outcomes for people who have historically been excluded. Now, is discomfort something that I experience in these conversations?

Judith van Vliet: Yes, that's why you're the right person.

Jessica Bantom: But I can relate to discomfort. I get it.

Judith van Vliet: Exactly.

Jessica Bantom: I completely get it. But I prioritize that mission over my discomfort. And I think for anybody who wants to engage in these conversations and show up in these ways and adopt these values, you have to keep that mission above your discomfort or anything else. And the whole idea of this, too, is about decentering ourselves and especially people who are of the majority in any way. Whether that's white people, whether that's able bodied people, whether that is people of a dominant religion in a society, dominant gender in the world generally, sexual orientation, all of that. We have to be conscious of that. But we can't let that be the driver in terms of how we engage in these topics. That is what is keeping us in the same holding patterns that we've been in forever. So if we truly it goes back to what those feelings I had about all these statements being made and nothing happening. If you really mean it and you have the intention, because I think a lot of people really do have good intentions around this, you have to keep that in mind. You have to keep the outcome in mind and not let your feelings override that.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah, I always tell. So when I teach, for example, I always say when you're uncomfortable in any conversation, any spot in any go for it, that's where you need to research. That's where you go deep.

Jessica Bantom: Right? Exactly. Everything about the last four years of my life has been uncomfortable deciding to go to Pivot to Dei, was uncomfortable becoming a Dei officer, was uncomfortable going into different client engagements. I never knew what I was walking into from one client to the next. Writing this book and then putting it out in the world was uncomfortable. But it was always, like I said, just going back to the mission, I want to bring about positive outcomes for people who have historically been excluded. And if this is the way that that has to happen, then this is what I signed up for.

Judith van Vliet: Had a very clear mission and a very clear objective, and I think that helps also, something that's missing in a lot of people here today. What role does color play when we talk about designing for identity? How can you express identity through color?

Jessica Bantom: Yes, I love the conversation about color and identity, and it was one of the areas I was drawn to when I was actually going through my kind of color education about the different cultural associations with color. Color just has so much meaning in general, but then there are. So many other influences, whether it's the religion that you grew up in, the society that you're part of, different political associations that we make with certain colors. There's so much power to color, and there are so many ways that it can be used to positively reinforce culture and identity overall. And that's one of the kind of tools in the culturally competent designers toolbox that I get into and design for identity as well. And it can be a good place. Once you get past that initial question with your customers about your identity, would you like to see celebrated? You can get into, well, how can we convey that? And color can be one of the ways to convey that. It can be the way to kind of tee up conversations about it can go back to identity in your culture. What colors were relevant to you or stood out to you or were important to you, what personal associations do you have with color? I think that will come to us a lot more quickly even than any other meanings. Just like you mentioned, it could go back to a great childhood experience. In terms of interiors, there could have been a space that you just loved because it conveyed warmth and comfort and luxury and things like that. So it can be a really key tool in helping to guide that identity conversation and to figure out how I, as a designer, can translate what honors you into this color scheme and how that all incorporates into the larger design. And it's been interesting to me to even to do that research, which doesn't take much time. It's funny, I've been sharing a series of posts recently. I saw them. Yeah, the different cultural meanings of color. The information is readily available, but I think it's just something that's not top of mind for us as designers to investigate until it's too.

Judith van Vliet: Oh, you told me about one example. I think it was something about Jamaica, right? I was just like, how did this yes, yes.

Jessica Bantom: The Jamaican heritage sweater that Louis Vuitton put out.

Judith van Vliet: Getting the colors wrong. It's that easy, people.

Jessica Bantom: It's that easy. Google, you can see the it's, but it has to be a conversation because there have been a couple really high visibility type of examples where this has gone wrong. One was very interesting to look at when Euro Disney first opened, that their main color was purple. And first of all, there were issues because there are so many cultures in Europe that they were like, what is Euro Disney? We are not one. There are so many cultures here. I don't know how you lump us all into Euro Disney, which is now, I think, Disney Paris. Yes, so that was an issue. But then also, there were so many different meanings and understandings of what the color purple meant. One was that it had a very religious association for several of the cultures, and that was kind of trivializing it. And it was offensive for that to be associated with a theme park and something that was just supposed to be fun. So you think about things like this where it's like, why did no one investigate this? Why didn't anyone give this more consideration? And a huge behemoth like Disney, like, nobody caught it there. And I actually had a conversation with a di colleague recently who was called in to work with a school, a new public school was being built in an area actually in the DMV, in the DC area, and it was being built in an area that had a large Asian community theme. Their idea for the theme was to tie the design for each level to a continent, which is like, okay, well, that's something. But they picked the color yellow for the Asian continent floor, and that has very derogatory associations. And the practitioner, I knew he wasn't called in until they were at like 90% completion with construction. But it was a good thing they brought him in because he raised this to their attention and they then, of course, had to go back and make adjustments, change finishes, change murals, all of these things.

Judith van Vliet: A lot of work.

Jessica Bantom: A lot of work. A lot of costly work. That of course bumped out the timeline for everything too. But if someone had caught that earlier in the process, it wouldn't have been an issue. But we really need to focus a lot all that to say, we need to focus a lot more on the multiple meanings of colors and what they signify to different people of different backgrounds.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah. I always tell my clients, we need to talk color early in the design process because indeed this is a building, or actually not even just one building, but the whole area. It's too late. Like you said, now they're delayed. There's additional cost, obviously. Now I want to know what color did they put? What did they change the yellow for?

Jessica Bantom: They actually shuffled the continents that they associated the levels to, and I think they changed that one to yeah, which was probably the most effective means at that point. But yes, it still requires more work, though.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah, but these are like simple mistake or easy to make mistakes that in the end are costful. And this is perhaps not apartment buildings, but literally it's also money wise. Like, people may not want to live there because they don't see themselves represented. So that means also that for a company or whoever is building a product or doing this design is not going to be successful. Not only is it insensitive completely, it's also it's not going to be a success, which I think is a lot worse.

Jessica Bantom: Exactly. And you bring up that point too, that color should be brought into the conversation very early on in the design process. I actually did my master's thesis on color planning and interior design. Color education and interior design. And I brought up the importance of addressing color in the programming phase, like when we are first starting to learn, our clients start having a conversation there, but also based on the information that you're getting that can start feeding into your concept, your finish, selection, all of that, because you're getting that critical information up front. And that's where we should start thinking about color. And it conveys also to graphic design, to web design. There are issues with contrast that are very relevant for people with different visibility levels of ability when it comes to vision, and it's something that I see it done wrong in so many places. You could probably pull up any if you pull up ten websites right now, it's probably eight out of ten where you're looking like, how is anyone supposed to read that? Even from a contrast perspective?

Judith van Vliet: As I said, you're a busy person. There's a lot of work to be done.

Jessica Bantom: Definitely.

Judith van Vliet: Have you yourself applied color? Do you have maybe, perhaps a great example that maybe you often use to tell people how you have applied work or color? Sorry, in a workspace or in one of your designs that was, let's say, just spot on because of the conversation that you've had or your clients have had, and it was successful due to the color picked out and the identity that this product or space was designed for.

Jessica Bantom: Yes, actually, there was a client that I worked with when I first started doing color consulting. She was opening a meal preparation kitchen. So I think those were a lot more popular back in the day. I'm probably dating myself a little bit, but this was in the 2000s where there were the spaces where you could go and it could be groups of people. You come with friends, you do your meal prep for the week, and you take all of the meals home. So it was that kind of space. And it was interesting because the client that came to me said that she had consulted with her architect first about the color, and this is not a dig at architects, but they had given her a very simple color scheme. But she said that people would probably associate it with a particular type of cuisine, and she didn't want that. She wanted the space to convey more that this was like a homelike environment to come. Like, this is like your mom's kitchen where everybody can come and it's not tied to a specific culture or a specific type of cuisine. She wanted it to be more about the space and the experience than just, like, what you would come up with, maybe for a restaurant, because there was no particular theme like that that she had in mind. So we worked together, and I actually ended up creating a palette for her that was based on colors of spices. It wasn't necessarily tied to, like I said, a particular type of cuisine or a particular cultural background. It was tied to ingredients and we chose tones that were warm colors, like you think of cumin and things like that. And those colors helped to support that intention of creating a space that felt like home and it felt like a warm type of environment. So she was really excited about that. And that translated into not just the color selection for the interiors, but also into her branding and her logo and.

Judith van Vliet: Things like that too. Talking about color just now, just I'm thinking about the post also that you're putting on social media. Is there one color that can be dangerously be applied in a region or culture on a particular continent that has really almost like an opposite meaning or something that really is a color that because we all know blue is sort of indeed positive merely to most cultures, most continents. But I'm aware there's a color that it's not. But I don't think the audience knows that. Is there a color that really needs to be applied with great care?

Jessica Bantom: Actually, I would say most color, they can have such diametric meanings. It's really amazing. So you think about a color like yellow, where in the US. I would say, for example, we associate that with joy. It's something that's upbeat. But then in Mexico, yellow flowers are the flowers for funerals. So we just have to be aware it applies. Red can have really extreme differences in the associations with that. Once again, even within the context of the US. It can be very energetic, but it can also mean danger.

Judith van Vliet: Yellow as well. Yellow and red, both of them exactly.

Jessica Bantom: They just have such they can trigger such extreme kind of reactions too. Like you have to really think about the power of colors to do that and what those associations are. And like I was saying, it's not that hard to find this information, but we should at least look into it and look into the different contexts and the ways that we're using it and where we're placing it, even in spaces, can send a whole different signal. And then you look at colors like green, which can be very kind of generic in some spaces, you think of nature, but then it also has religious implications. That's a sacred color for Islam. So we just have to keep that in mind because a color that we might just kind of throw in this place kind of downplay or think that it's a nice accent, that'll be cool, could actually be sending a completely different signal to people in different spaces. And also going back to that idea of placement, if you put a color in a place where maybe people walk on it and it's a color that's sacred and has special meaning to people, that alone can send another message as well. So there are just a lot of things that we need to be aware.

Judith van Vliet: Of now again, the whole goal of this podcast is to make people less afraid of using color. And I think when they're listening to this, like, I'm just going to go with gray again because I'm not touching this topic. Like, no way.

Jessica Bantom: No. The idea is that the more that we know, the more powerful our use of color can be.

Judith van Vliet: Because indeed it is powerful. We mentioned a little bit, but what are the worst pitfalls a company or a designer can fall into when they try to design for identity, inclusivity, and even empathy? I think most of the time, and I know the title is as it is, but I think what's mainly lacking is empathy generally in design, in the world, among people, which is again, the listening and the simple, the accepting and recognizing. But what are those pitfalls that are so easy to overcome but you see happening over and over again?

Jessica Bantom: Well, I think one of the habits that we have in design is when we do engage with customers, that it's just at the beginning of the process and maybe at the very end. So you have your initial consultations, your initial interviews, and then you'll maybe have a focus group. What about everything in between? The whole design process itself gives us so many more opportunities to go back and validate so that we're not just taking those initial pieces of information and then saying, okay, I got it from here. And then you get to a point like that school that I mentioned where they're at 90% construction and have to make changes if we can just go back and validate throughout the process as we're going. So maybe we have the initial conversations, we develop a concept, we go back again to the customers, did we get this right? Are we on the right path? Are there other things that we should add in, take away, et cetera? Then you go back, you make those tweaks check in again, and when you check in, be willing to pivot because there may be a chance that you didn't quite hit the nail on the head. And that's fine too, but it's better to find out along the way than it is when you're at the very end and damage has been done, especially because people that you asked in the first place are now feeling like, why did you even waste my time? Because you didn't really listen and you didn't really care to translate what I gave to you into something that's meaningful to me.

Judith van Vliet: And that's the worst. And especially when it comes then to color and identity, it's not about you feeling that you're seen through the design and that designer truly has understood who you are and what you stand for. But color has very visceral reactions as well. So you need the colors to get the colors right and the color combinations right as well. Because it's not just one color right. It's also the combinations getting the right, because especially the combinations in other cultures, again, have a different meaning. Just like you said, certain colors on the carpet perhaps is a big no because you wouldn't be able to actually walk on them or you're not supposed to walk on them.

Jessica Bantom: Exactly. We do have such a visceral reaction to color. And you can give somebody the most beautiful mood boards. You can come up with the most beautiful model of something, and the first thing they're going to react to is the color. It could be gorgeous, but it could be one color they don't like in there. And that's the first thing they're going to tell you in so many different spaces. And graphic design, product design, interiors. So we have to really I mean, that just calls attention to the fact that we just really have to be conscious about those color choices, too.

Judith van Vliet: Just two Sundays ago, I got asked this question during my Power of Color presentation in Cairo, so in Egypt. And this girl just says, when I sometimes show my designs online to my international clients, so they have an international that's even more difficult. So it's an international product. What does that mean? So you're going to use blue. That's almost automatic, like blue, because it leaves universally it's the most liked color. But she says their immediate reaction sometimes is no. And she says, I think, especially listening to your presentation, it might be the color. I said, it's probably the color. So always have your backup plan. Always have, like, a second design, a third design with different colors, even in the same color family with different shades, because nobody says, I don't like yellow, and then doesn't like any yellow. But that's the reaction of Power, right? It can literally have people say complete no to a product even though it's just about the color.

Jessica Bantom: Exactly. And they can't even always articulate exactly what it is.

Judith van Vliet: But no, they couldn't tell her. They couldn't tell her what it was. They say, I don't know. I just don't like it.

Jessica Bantom: And that also goes to the ability, just like you're saying, to have the different color families, but also to play with proportions. So maybe you have the same palette, but you pick a different dominant color, and that can completely change people's perception of what that space is conveyed.

Judith van Vliet: So again, it's asking but it's a continuous confirmation, right? It's a continuous conversation and a continuous go back and forth, especially if it's not your culture, it's not your identity. Go back and just ask just ask, Did I get it right? How do you feel also, it's also about emotions, right? How do you feel looking at this? Do you feel represented? Because that's, I think, the biggest issue. Most cultures and identities do not feel represented in, well, where they shop, where they eat, where they work.

Jessica Bantom: Exactly. And they should see themselves in it.

Judith van Vliet: Yeah. So you are an ambassador for Cultural Diversity and Identity and Design because I know you have a plan, because you have a mission, you have an objective. And even though you were hugely uncomfortable in the past couple of years, I know you're going to make yourself be more uncomfortable in the next couple of years to create more visibility on this topic. Where would you like so what are a little bit of your plan for this? But also where would you like us to be in ten years? Or maybe ten years is not a lot, but what are you hopeful for?

Jessica Bantom: So I am hopeful that, for one, we can normalize addressing identity and design, that this won't need to be a book, it won't need to be a separate course. Like, I'm teaching a course on Ashley for an interior design program this semester. It will be folded into any kind of conversation about design, and it won't be seen as something like, oh, that's another thing we have to do, or how are we going to fit this in? It will just be normal, just like we talk about color in general, like, what's our palette going to be, what are our finishes going to be, anything like that. What is our scope of this project, what's the budget? Blah, blah, blah. The identity will be just a normal part of that conversation like anything else. Like, how are we going to explore the identity of the customers that we're working with and that we're going to be representing here? And then how do we making sure we have those kind of milestones built into or those gates built into the overall design process? So that's one thing. And then I would also like for there to be an expanded understanding and practice of what we call inclusive design. Because in a lot of spaces, even across design disciplines, when we talk about inclusive design, the conversation usually goes to ability, which is critical and which I'm not saying shouldn't be part of the whole conversation, but we need to expand that to including cultural identity, including all aspects of once again, who we are as people and who we are as humans, and making sure that that's folded into this concept of inclusive design and that we are actually practicing inclusive design across the board too.

Judith van Vliet: And the world becoming ever more I mean, I was born and raised in a country that is a true melting pot. I'm now living in a country that not really is, or at least the Netherlands. Obviously, they already have multiple generations from people coming from different cultures, either due to our past, obviously, but also people that we have welcomed in Italy, we're still at that. It's only just the first generation now growing up, perhaps the second. So the melting pots that Europe already is, that the United States already is very much it's only going to get, let's say, more important to do exactly and to know and to listen to people like you who are teaching. This is how you open a conversation and this is how you make sure everybody feels seen in design.

Jessica Bantom: Exactly. And this is honestly, I don't like to boil these conversations down to this business level, but it is just also about in terms of business. Our populations are changing, demographics are shifting. Your future customer base and your future talent pool are going to look a lot different than they do right now. And it's changing day by day, even now. So the organizations that are preparing for that and are shifting the ways that they operate to meet that need and to meet this change and this shift that's happening are the ones who are going to be ahead. They're the ones that are going to survive, the ones who keep holding on to, this is how we've done it. And I don't want to be uncomfortable, okay? It's real uncomfortable to not be in business anymore. It is.

Judith van Vliet: And also, it's going to be really uncomfortable if people just stop buying your brand because you are the way you are. And that's going to be a majority in the very near future, especially with the younger generation being very aware of what currently is happening in the world. Although there is slow progress, there is hopefully progress. And I hope your work is going to help to that. And I hope this podcast will again open eyes to many people. It certainly has to me. So I want to thank you for that.

Jessica Bantom: Thank you. And I'm very hopeful. I am very hopeful that, like I said, there's a lot of good intention out there. We just need to funnel that into action.

Judith van Vliet: Thank you for being on the Color Authority.

Jessica Bantom: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Judith van Vliet: I hope you enjoyed this last episode. If you are a fan of the Color Authority podcast, please let us know by reviewing and rating our show on whichever platform you're listening on. The next episode is coming out next month, and in the meantime, I'm wishing you a wonderful, colorful day.