The FractionX Podcast
Your careless communication is wrecking your influence.
The words we say matter, but the way we say them matters just as much. Leadership is influence, and you waste your influence when you don't communicate well. On this episode Matt and Drew talk about how to have tough conversations and not wreck your influence with your team.
The words we say matter, but the way we say them matters just as much. Leadership is influence, and you waste your influence when you don't communicate well. On this episode Matt and Drew talk about how to have tough conversations and not wreck your influence with your team.
so drew. Yes, sir, we had a conversation about um, a challenging dynamic you've experienced, you know, and it's it's interesting as entrepreneurs who own our own businesses, but a lot of times the clients we work with have some, you know, control and input into our lives and the way we work, and so it just reminded us of how important great leadership is, and so, obviously, we hear stories from the people we're coaching and we know there's just challenging when it comes to challenges, when it comes to managing employees, and I think we've briefly touched on this in the past, but I wanted to spend a whole episode talking about why is it important that your tone matters when you communicate as a leader?
Speaker 2:Yeah, tone and just words matter in general, what you say and how you say it. I had a leader a long time ago, so no one's listening to this podcast or can identify who it is. But when I was younger, I would always think think to myself there's a hundred different ways you could have said that to me, but you said it in the way that was going to piss me off, like intentionally. That's what it felt like. Well, it felt that way and I come to find out as I've gotten older. I don't think so. I think he's. I think he actually was a really good leader. He was strong, strategic um. He just put zero thought into how he communicated and how things come across, and I work with leaders who have said similar things, similar directives, um.
Speaker 2:I have a client right now who is great at giving feedback and directives, whatever in a way that makes me feel it's very collaborative and it has everything to do with how he says things, the tone in which he says things, and here's my hunch.
Speaker 2:The reason why I think this is good for a podcast episode is I think there's a lot of really good leaders out there that are actually shooting themselves in the foot because they're not thinking through how they're communicating certain things right, and so I think if leaders will actually put some more intentionality between behind like tone and and what they're saying, they're actually going to get a lot better results out of their, the people that are leading. And I'm not even saying it's about coddling Okay, I'm not even saying that Cause I like I'm good with people being direct, but people understanding that there's a human on the other side of what you're saying that cares about what they're doing, those things. And so you know, I just think there's a lot of leaders out there that could benefit from you know, taking some time to think about how they're saying it and why that matters.
Speaker 1:So a lot of organizations you know we've talked a little bit about this dynamic where the founder is the visionary. You know they're the ones that saw a gap in the market. They knew, man, my product is going to solve something in the market that's not being solved right now. So they create the business right. A lot of times they're not there to manage the business, they're there to ideate new products or new departments. And you know a lot of times that typical founder is the lead creative in the organization. They're the tip of the spear to get things out there and going and they often outsource the management to someone else because it's not a skill set they have or their time is better spent.
Speaker 1:New revenue, new path, and oftentimes what happens is there's a good cop and bad cop dynamic that exists. I'm curious Do you think that dynamic is intentional? Like, do visionary founders go? I need a bad cop because I want my staff to like me, I want my team to like me. So do you think that good cop, bad cop thing is intentional or is that just accidental, based on personality types?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it probably is both. I think there's probably scenarios where visionary point leaders have the self-awareness to say, hey, I need someone on my team who can actually say no, who can actually hold the line, who can manage. I think that's probably really healthy, um, and I think there's probably other scenarios where it's just, you know, it's still saying opposites attract until opposites attack. You know, so I've seen that too where it's like someone comes in at first as a honeymoon period, but over time because there's not a self-awareness around. We talked in the last episode about StrengthsFinder and Enneagram. They've not done that work and so at first you love this person because they balance you and compliment you. But if you don't have your ego in check, then they start challenging you in the way you're doing things and that becomes super explosive at the highest level, which obviously trickles down through the whole organization.
Speaker 2:Culture gets really wonky and that's where and we've talked about using the word toxic, but that is where toxic organizations, toxic cultures happen is when there's division, which is just. I mean, simply put, that's two visions at the top. That's good. Where it's the point, leader wants to go one way, or even they're going the same direction.
Speaker 1:About how they're going about doing it or the speed they're going.
Speaker 2:Yeah, or the and I've been guilty of this too leading a team that's got multi-levels of management, where the leader of that team parachutes in and cuts the legs out from the other managers on their team, Whether it's through like just energy personality vision, whatever, through like just energy personality vision, whatever and the leaders are saying, man, I was leading them in a certain way and then you just bombed in and kind of made a mess and now I'm here to clean it up, Right, and so yeah, so I think it's probably a little bit of both on that.
Speaker 1:In your experience? Is it that usually that founder that is not careful with their words? Or is it usually that manager type that they've brought in to manage things for them that end up being the one who are careless with their words?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it could be both, maybe both. I think that whether you're the point leader or the manager, you have to fall in love with not being the smartest person in the room. Like you actually have to decide. Like I'm, actually I really enjoy not having the idea. Or, or if I do have the idea, I really love it when someone else discovers it and then I get to champion them and and push them forward. Right, it's good.
Speaker 2:I think a lot of owner operators, especially founders, it was their baby, it was their idea, and so it's really difficult for that person.
Speaker 2:Or I will say also, if someone comes in as a manager or a high level leader that needs to fix things in the organization, yeah, they're going to come in and they're going to have a lot of directives at first.
Speaker 2:But I think the win is when you can lead in such a way that people feel the freedom, feel empowered to have great ideas, and when they bring those ideas to the top, you don't turn around and give that same idea as a directive as if it was yours. So some people listen to that and be like, well, that's crazy. That would be instinctive to not do that. But what's crazy to me is how often that happens, where a leader can't let someone else in the organization have the idea, or they take the idea and they turn around and make it a directive, which just sucks all the oxygen out of the room. Yeah, because now you as a leader are like well, it went from. I'm excited about this thing that I'm bringing to the table instead of empowering me on it. You stole it from me and now you demanded it of me, and now I don't even want to do it anymore, because you took the empowerment away.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you extinguished the fire. So this episode is personally offensive because I'm a person who's every once in a while not so careful with my words, and so it makes me think are leaders who are sometimes careless with their words and they're often more offensive than they are effective. Is that downstream of a personality type? Obviously there's a self-awareness component to it. But if we're thinking Enneagram, is there an eight, one, one, three, five dynamic? That really is that assertive. I'm just gonna say it fast, I'm gonna say it wrong, but I'm gonna get it done. Well, I think it's on the spectrum of health too.
Speaker 2:So, like you're an enneagram eight, but you work hard to stay healthy, yeah, right and so, and we fluctuate all of them. I'm not trying to set you up on a pedestal, but I've known you for a long time and you stay in a healthy zone, a healthy spot. So when you communicate it's direct and can be direct, but few times have I experienced you being careless. Now I will say you also appreciate and I think this gets to you, know I'm picking on you but the eights, the ones, the five, the more black and white.
Speaker 2:I think you respect and appreciate people who are candid back with you, like you don't like the fluff, you don't BS me, don't work me, don't give me the compliment sandwich. I know what you're doing, just hit me with what you got to say, um, and so I think those type leaders like for me personally, I enjoy that kind of leader I like, I like knowing that now I also am a relational person and I'm an emotional person, right, and so I want to know that that leader cares about me, that sees me, that, you know, cares about my life, cares about what's going on too, which I think could be fatiguing to people who just want to, you know, get down to business, um. But I think the shadow side of all this this is where I fall into is you can actually care so much about what you're saying and the words you're saying that you start to lack honesty and you start to lack what's true and what's genuine, and it can easily turn into manipulation.
Speaker 1:I heard somebody talk about it. Just like this we all want to be persuasive, right, and a persuasive conversation is I'm going to use my influence to get something done that benefits both of us, and where persuasion trips into manipulation is I'm going to get something done that really just benefits me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, we talked StrengthsFinder, and Woo and Communication are always in my top five, which I'd always joke and say Woo and Communication equals manipulation.
Speaker 2:When it's unhealthy because it's like I cared about winning other people over. Yeah, it's really hard for me to and and I hope, hopefully I'm getting better at this but it historically has been really hard for me to tell people something I knew they weren't going to like to hear, um, and so I would take such a long way around getting to the point and oftentimes, when I knew what I wanted, I just I, I wanted to win them in the process and you know spoiler, that doesn't work. It actually it actually backfires, right, most people just they want clarity and honesty in that you don't, they're not mutually exclusive, like you can be kind and you can also be clear and you can be honest and all those things, and so I think there's definitely a shadow side of caring too much about the words that you're, you've, you've lacked, um, you know authenticity, to use a buzzword. Um, most people just can take it, treat them like you know adults, and this is where I mean not to get too deep. But this is where the codependency comes in, where I need you to like me.
Speaker 2:There's something in me that's insecure, that I need this, and so I'm going to try to control your thoughts, your feelings, your responses. You're like, as opposed to saying no. Matt's a big boy and I can, with purity of heart, say something that's true and hope that he receives it well, but I don't have to control how. How that's true and hope that he receives it well, but I don't have to control how. How you respond is up to you. Um, I feel like if I had known that earlier in leadership, it would have saved me a lot of heartache.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Well and same. So, as as a person who's probably the giver of that careless words more often than the receiver, my heart always in that is like hey, we've got important things to do, like what we're doing matters, the work we're doing matters, and time is money. Yeah, and it's like I got to say this as fast as I can and I'll clean it up later yes, this is important, let's go do this. And so I don't think at least my intentions ever been I'm going to really make this person feel bad about themselves Like I would never say I'm trying to hurt someone's feelings in a direct conversation. I'm just going hey, this matters, let's go do this right now because it's really important.
Speaker 2:Well, I think, even if you say that, like if you're talking and so like. So I think there's certain times in a company's life and organization's life where you're on the battlefield, yeah, and that's not the time. This is why, like Speed of Trust was a book you talked about, this is why you build a strong foundation in your huddles and your one-on-ones and your meetings, whatever, so that in those crunch times you have the rapport to be able to say things and not have to think through how is this coming across? Because we're at battle right now. If you're in the middle of a battle, you don't have time to to, you just got to shout this is what I need done. Absolutely. I can't give you my why right now. I can't unpack for you the thought process behind it. I need it done and I'll circle back.
Speaker 1:And if you have trust, you can do that Absolutely. So a friend of ours made this, posted a Steve jobs video clip from like probably I think it's like the late 80s and I may have got the time wrong, but he's basically whiteboarding with his senior leadership team. Did you see the clip? Yeah, I did. It's great. They're kind of going back and forth about product deadline, like hey, if we don't launch this by this time of this year, we're going to miss the college back to school sale essentially. And we're not a company if we don't hit deadlines. If we don't hit deadlines, we don't have a product. If we don't have a product, we don't make any sales. If we don't make any sales, our revenue's done and our company's done.
Speaker 1:And he was very direct. It was Steve Jobs in the video, but he wasn't unkind. He disagreed with everybody in the room about a timeline and as a point leader he had the whether it was the business instinct or the business data, maybe a combination of both to say man, my North star is that this has to get done right now. And I thought, wow, like that's a really masterclass level, like kind of speech in a whiteboard and creative session where he's like this has to happen and I didn't feel his like wrath. I didn't think he was unkind or uncaring in that moment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, and I didn't either, and I think that takes a lot of courage and I think also, like I would, I would be the first to admit that I'm not steve jobs, right, right, like steve jobs is a genius yeah, one in a million, right one in a million.
Speaker 2:so, like for me, I look, I look at that clip and it goes back to living in consultation because, yes, as a leader, there are moments where you have to be that person. Your whole team is disagreeing with something, yeah, but you calmly, candid, candidly, but with a lot of clarity. He wasn't like emotion-packed, he basically timeline for them, if they miss a deadline, how their company may not be in business anymore, and I don't feel a whole lot of emotion in it. It was very practical, right. And so he, as a founder, owner, operator, there's times we're going to do that.
Speaker 2:But again, it goes back to one thing that we preach constantly who else do you have, who do you have on your team that you're bouncing these things off of, that you're talking through, that are helping you see those things, so that when you stand up in front of your team you're not on an island all by yourself. You've processed this with some people Because when I saw that, I thought the same thing. I mean, gosh, the courage it would take to go against your whole senior leadership team. And I think I could do that if I had my own team of of my own board of directors. If you will saying we process this, this is the right way, right way to go Well, let me give you the final word.
Speaker 1:If you're on the receiving end of a leader who's careless with their words and you feel offended or you feel disrespected, what are some things people in our organization can do if they're almost feeling the wrath of that leader sometimes?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I want to. We always try to do this on this podcast. I want to give the leader the benefit of the doubt. I don't want to assume that the leader's a jerk. I don't want to assume whatever. I want to assume that maybe they have a personality type who is just very direct and maybe they don't understand how they're coming across. So I would always encourage to have a conversation, have a follow-up conversation in private. I wouldn't confront if it's in a room, but I would pull this person aside and say hey, listen, here's how this came across to me, here's how I received it.
Speaker 2:Brene Brown has a great kind of exercise line hey, this is the story that I'm writing. The story that I'm writing is that you don't value me, and that's the story that I'm writing is. You know, whatever it might be. And this is where the leading up principle comes in. If this is a good leader, they're going to want help doing this.
Speaker 2:I was in a part of a conversation not too long ago with I wasn't involved, but it was a client and someone else in the organization and this very thing happened. And the next day she went to him and said and I kind of gave her that advice. I said why don't you go to him and say hey, here's a story that I'm writing. The story that I'm writing is that you don't want me involved with this, you don't value my experience or whatever, and I want to make sure that I'm, you know, give you the benefit of the doubt. And he had a great conversation, he cleared it up. I was like no, that's, that's not all. What I was actually trying to protect you. You've got so much on your plate and you're whatever. So it totally flipped that narrative Right. And so I would say be bold enough to go in curious, not with accusations, but with questions.
Speaker 2:And when you say this is a story I'm writing, it puts the ownership on you. Hey, I'm writing this story, can you help me reshape, reframe this narrative? So I'm not carrying this around. And the last thing I would say is do the same thing on the other side. I've got a client right now who and I'm a words of affirmation guy already so like that's a big deal for me, but I've got a client who does this really well, and I don't every time, but often I'll say hey, man, I really respond well to that. So thank you. Like that's that, like when you say I'm doing a good job, or when you say, hey, you're leveling us up or you're doing whatever, like I feed off that and I care about doing a good job for you. And when you tell me those things, I take it to heart, I'm really grateful for I just want you to know that. So affirming some of those things too along the way is also really helpful.