Develop Leadership Resilience - with Enrico Cañal Bruland

Join us in a conversation with Enrico Cañal Bruland, GM&VP of a multinational pharmaceutical company, where we discuss how to develop resilience in leadership.

Reflecting on professional and private challenges, Enrico shares 3 factors that have helped him become a calmer, more balanced, and better version of himself. And as a result, becoming a more resilient leader, supporting his team and fostering a positive, forward-looking mindset, during difficult times.

• Curiosity - the ability to approach challenges as learning opportunities
• Empathy - being empathetic to others in times of difficulties, but first to oneself
• Humor - amid serious challenges, find the moments where a bit of humor helps

Key moments

01:43 Introducing our guest Enrico Cañal Bruland

02:57 Short ‘definition’ of Resilience in Leadership

06:41 Key Success Factors in building Resilience

09:55 Curiosity

15:16 Empathy

24:02 Humor

29:08 Concluding thoughts on Balance, Calmness and Presence

35:31 Reflection questions

Reflection Questions

• Think back to a challenging situation where you might have felt out of control. Think about what happened. How did you respond? How did you feel? And look at your experience through the lens of curiosity, empathy and humor: Did you use it? And if so, how did it help? How could you use it in the future?

• On the importance of being present: What can you do to be more present as a leader?

• Reflect on who you are, and who you aspire to be. And in the context of leadership, what kind of leader do you really want to be?  And this relates then to the aspiration: What really matters to you, what’s most important in your life? It may not sound immediately as a recipe to be more resilient, however when you have a clear direction in life, when you know what really matters, then you can also more easily deal with the challenges, putting things in perspective, and finding the necessary energy.

About Enrico Cañal Bruland

If you are interested, you can connect with Enrico via LinkedIn here.

About Second Crack

More info about us and our work is also on our website: secondcrackleadership.com

 Do you have any questions, feedback, or suggestions for us? Would you like to explore how we can help you drive results in your organisations through a company-wide initiative or individual executive coaching? Then email us: hello at secondcrackleadership.com.

To connect with us on LinkedIn:

Martin Aldergård
Gerrit Pelzer

Transcript

Second Crack – The Leadership Podcast (Episode 35)

This transcript is AI-generated and may contain typos and errors.

[00:44] Gerrit: Dear listeners, a warm welcome to Second Crack, The Leadership Podcast. In this show, we explore everyday leadership dilemmas and paradoxes, and we invite you to self- reflect. I am Gerrit Pelzer, I work as an executive coach, and what I bring to my coaching is a combination of Western science and Asian wisdom. Joining me today, as always, is my good friend and business partner, Martin Aldergard. Martin specializes in driving change and transformation within organizations, and what we both have in common is that we always put people at the center of our work. So hi, Martin, how are you today?

[01:28] Martin: Hi, Gerrit, I'm fine and looking forward to a great conversation. And today we will talk about resilience and resilience and leadership. What does it actually mean? And perhaps how can I become more resilient?

[01:43] Gerrit: And to help us do this, we have a wounderful guest on the show, Enrico Cañal Bruland. So Enrico, a warm welcome to you as well.

[01:54] Enrico: Thank you very much, it's a pleasure to be here.

[01:57] Gerrit: So, a quick introduction, Enrico, you have been living in Bangkok for about two years, and you are the general manager of a multinational pharmaceutical company. I would add one of the most successful companies in the pharmaceutical industries. And after finishing business school, you have spent 15 years in corporate roles. You moved from Europe to North America. Back to Europe, and now you're in Asia. And from what I learned about you, I'd said your passion is people development. And you focus a lot of your time and energy on leadership and coaching. And this includes not only helping other people to grow, but also growing yourself to be more resilient and a balanced leader in today's fast paced environment. Does that describe you properly or have I missed anything?

[02:53] Enrico: I think you described it better than I could have done it.

[02:57] Gerrit: That's, that's a good start. Yeah. And I experienced, there's a lot of talk around resilience these days, maybe in the context of what all of us have experienced lately, COVID, wars, disruption, et cetera. But what is resilience actually, particularly in the context of leadership? Enrico, what would you say, what is resilience?

[03:25] Enrico: Yeah, I think, I think some basic definitions would probably say it's overcoming difficulties or bouncing back from challenges, things that, things that happen and often things that we don't expect to happen. and that's probably, um. I think a basic definition, if you Google it, at least that's what came up when I Googled it.

[03:46] Um, but I, I do think based on personal experience and looking at the opportunities that challenges give, I think we can go a bit beyond that and try to see what can we actually do to not only go back to normal or go back to where we were before, but how can we grow? How can we apply a growth mindset in those moments where the first reaction is probably Ah, goddammit, right? Uh, why me? And why now? And it's always the wrong time. But how can we change that and flip that into something more forward looking, more positive? That's, that's my take on it.

[04:23] Martin: Is that similar to saying like coming "out stronger than before", or is it something different? 

[04:32] Enrico: Yeah, I think I, you know, I think, first of all, I think you can apply this to professional and personal life and, and I've been challenged in professional life and I've also been challenged in personal life. So I think stronger, I don't know if you always stronger, but I would say you come out a better version of yourself. Does that have to be stronger or at least the, maybe Martin, the traditional definition of stronger. Maybe it's more balanced, other positive attributes that are not necessarily stronger. Because for me, if I'm very honest, I think vulnerability is a big part of this journey, right. So then you can say, yeah, but if you're more vulnerable, are you actually stronger- in a way you are.

[05:15] Martin: I think this resonates so nicely. Gerrit, you remember we have been talking about humility as leaders several times, and this is now also a word that's popping up when I'm listening to Enrico here, this humbleness. and this word stronger, it means like so much this overpowering leader, and you need to be always strong and come up with a brave face and push through. And what I'm hearing is something totally different and really, really interesting. And also the word more balanced. I linked that then back to being more self aware. Having learned something out of a tough experience.

[05:59] Gerrit: I also like the idea of balance in this context and, this bouncing back also makes perfect sense because we, we can't avoid the challenges in our professional and personal lives, but how do we go through it? And, yeah, I think I mentioned the key word. How, Enrico, what would you say? How to be resilient because it's, it's easily said, but it's difficult to, to apply. So when, when the bad news hit, it's hard ever to be really prepared for it. So what are your thoughts on how to be resilient?

[06:41] Enrico: Yeah, I agree with you. I just mentioned, right, is I think it's human to say, ah, why me? Or why now? You know, just everything was just perfect yesterday, and today it's not. So I think that's very normal. And I would lie if I wouldn't say this would happen to me too. I guess the question is, how much time do you spend in that phase? And how fast can you move forward into something more, more positive, more balanced, more forward looking? And, and the one thing that in hindsight, I'm far from being perfect at applying this myself all the time. But in hindsight, I've reflected lately quite a bit on, on the areas that I rely on to help myself go through this in a more positive, balanced way and, and, and forward looking way.

[07:27] And I have three elements that they have kind of over time come up more and more, and and I'm trying to develop myself in that direction. And they're probably a bit different from what other people will say when they hear resilience. but I talk quite a bit lately with people and one word that comes up a lot is curiosity, you know, what can I learn from this challenge? Like what, I mean, COVID, not fun, right, for sure not. But I think we learned a lot. we learned a lot of what's actually possible in a very, crazy environment, et cetera. 

[07:59] And then the other one that comes from me after that and being very people centric is empathy. You know, when you are in a moment and somebody gives you really bad news, or you have to give somebody really bad news, make sure we stay empathetic, and empathetic in this case towards that receiver of the message, but also empathetic towards ourselves. Because that's one of the things I learned the hard way. When the news get hard and I'm hard on myself on top of that, it's a lot of, it's a lot of, heavy, heavy lifting, a big backpack. 

[08:30] And then the last one, and, and this is probably the one I struggled the most with. How can we laugh sometimes in those moments too? And remember, we're human and have a little bit of humor. And not giggling it away, you know, that's not what I'm trying to say, but also don't take it all too serious, even in a serious moment. So Those three things, curiosity, empathy, and humor, they, they've been coming up a lot. And yeah, I do believe they help to overcome challenging moments and strengthen resilience.

[09:02] Gerrit: I think that's fantastic, because also, like I said, resilience is sometimes kind of a buzzword these days. It's very popular, but I don't think I've ever really come across this unique combination of curiosity, empathy, and humor. And maybe just to add here some personal experience. Take the, COVID pandemic, it was a very hard time for me, both business wise and also personally, and, one thing I really learned from it was being more empathetic towards people who are less fortunate than myself, because we have all been in, in Thailand during this time, I believe, and there were people who, you know, really had nothing. so that was certainly one of my learnings. So the curiosity, what can I learned to actually learn led me to be more empathetic. But maybe, maybe we can dissect it one by one. about curiosity,what are your examples about what can one learn from such a unpleasant encounter?

[10:08] Enrico: If we take this example, right, like a work crisis. supply chain issue, et cetera, and they come every day. I think curiosity can be quite intellectual. So it can be, okay, are there actually, things we haven't looked at, you know, how can we get the product faster from A to B? How can we make sure the product supply is intact? Like the, I think those are very intellectual examples of you're forced to think outside the box. I guess that that's probably the most natural way to describe it. And I think often when we think about challenges, it's because they push us outside of our box, right. They force us to do something different. And I think there are certain people that we work with, they always take this challenge in a very positive way because they see it as intellectual stimulus. that's something I have learned that if, if I look at some of these challenges, okay, they're going to be tough, they're going to be emotionally tough, they're going to be stressful moments. But there's for sure something I'm going to learn from this, you know, and likely not only emotionally, but also intellectually. 

[11:15] There can also be the self awareness part that you have talked about, right? So that's, that's maybe a bit different. There's always the opportunity also to look at how do I respond to a crisis? What kind of leader am I in a moment of crisis? Do I get super nervous? Do I get super calm? Do I freak people more out? Do I actually help them to digest properly? So I think on those two, on those two kind of parameters, you know, more that intellectual curiosity. I think there's a lot to learn there, especially for the ones that are into the content side of things. And then I think there's the context element, which is much more self awareness and recognizing patterns on how do you respond to a moment like this and what kind of leadership comes through in a moment like this.

[12:05] Martin: To me, this resonates a lot, and I'm reflecting back to what happened at COVID with the training and leadership development business that I was in. And when all the business just disappeared overnight, basically and this importance as a leader, then to move away from trying to rescue whatever could be rescued and trying to maintain control and, and worry about, okay, now we're losing this, now we're losing this and not another workshop canceled. And rather say, it's gone, forget it, it's not coming back, face it. And then suddenly a peacefulness came and we can actually focus on the future. And it's almost positive. The worries and, and, and you mentioned this, how, how do I come across as a leader? Do I actually put more stress on my team? Or can I focus everybody's energy towards building something new, rather than worrying about what we're actually losing right now? That is this connection I make to then the, the curiosity, the learning, working on something positive rather than trying to maintain something that I'm probably going to lose. It's never going to come back the same anyway.

[13:26] Enrico: Yeah, I fully agree. I fully agree. And I think the, the leadership part is, is probably where, at least for me, I think there's always opportunity for growth. Because, I mean, maybe it's because I'm not, I haven't been in the industry for 40 years yet, right? But there's always something you haven't seen before. There's always something that you haven't experienced before. And then eventually it's less about what that thing is, but it's more about you knowing how you respond to moments like that. And you can rely on your kind of frameworks and tools that you have to manage your own energy and your own, you know, stress levels and how you respond to those moments.

[14:07] Gerrit: Yeah, and also at this moment of the recording, all of us are in, in Thailand, but also we all come from Europe. And I think that also in Asia, perhaps in general, people are better at dealing with ambiguity. Whereas in my experience, please correct me if you think I'm wrong, we like to have very clear outcomes. We always need to stay in control of a situation and it's harder for us to deal with different outcomes, whereas in Asia people are more open to, you know, we actually, there's so much in life we can't control. Why do we need to worry so much? And also then putting things into perspective, how bad is it really? I mean, I remember when I was still in the corporate world, there was a time where like, ah, every week there was a new crisis, right? But is it really, is it something life threatening or is it something I can deal with? And I, and again, I'm coming back to what you said, Enrico, this mindset of what can I learn from this, I think that's really a fantastic one.

[15:16] Martin: And empathy was the second word that you mentioned, Enrico. Can we elaborate more on this, perhaps an example.

[15:24] Enrico: Yeah. I think you already mentioned a little bit, like, don't be so hard on yourself. I think that's the, you know, Gerrit, you had this great thing. What, what can I learn from this? And the second one, I would say, don't be so hard on yourself. And, and I would start out by saying, don't be so hard on yourself first, because it has to do with self first. If I can't control my own emotion in that moment, how can I help other people to manage their emotions in that moment, right? And I think we have all seen those bosses that lose their cool in a crisis, right? They, the, the head's falling off and they're freaking out, and the yelling starts, and the shouting starts, and all these things. So, so I think if there are moments where you receive really bad news and, and they happen a lot, right? Yeah, you, you lost a big contract or, you know, a sale didn't go through that was almost finished. And, and I think it's so important in that moment to not be so hard on yourself all the time. Of course you should analyze and see, okay, what went wrong, what can we do better I fully get that. But, when you are able to say to yourself, look, it's okay, we're gonna get through this, then I think that calmness that you project and the ability to kind of look beyond what went wrong in the moment and recognizing you're still the same good person you were before. You're still the same good leader you were before, and if you can project that calmness towards others, I think the, if I may say, the bounce back time, you know, it can go a lot faster. And that doesn't mean we're not taking accountability for mistakes or things that happen, right? I think those two things, they can go hand in hand and it's about balance.

[17:14] Gerrit: And, and again, listening to so many things come to mind. One is I've been working with an organization where there was a lot of blame going on. So something bad happens, and then the first question is, whose fault is it? And I think you nailed it when you said, well, I cannot remember exactly what words you use, but it's more like, OK, no, it has already happened, we can't change this, but what can we do now? And the other thing I feel reminded of is coming back again to this Asian mindset. In Thailand, there's a huge influence of Buddhism, and I feel reminded of Metta and Garuna.  Metta meaning loving kindness. Yeah, so when let's say somebody in the organization screwed up, there may be somebody who we could blame. But, can we have this empathy, can we approach the situation with loving kindness? I don't think anybody in the West tends to do that. And the second, Garuna, is often translated as compassion, perhaps. And, uh, yeah, can we have compassion with the other person? But having also compassion for ourself, and that is often harder than for for other people. And I wonder if you have maybe also some specific examples for that to illustrate this?

[18:39] Enrico: Yeah, I think, I think empathy or compassion, is a very tricky one. So, um, I, I think on the personal side, when you are faced with failure like you really, you feel like you failed, relationship challenges, marriage challenges, whatever health challenges, you know, I, I have seen all of those in my life. And, and it's really hard in those moments sometimes to just sit and say, It's okay, you're doing your best, right? It's very human for leaders and people that have ambitions, you know, they have careers, and it's very human to say, I screwed up, I should have done better. And then actually the opposite happens, right? You're dragging yourself down, you're getting yourself in negative thought, negative speech. So for me, the ability, and I struggle with this still, by the way, it's not something I master in any way, but I've noticed that if I go into this negative, vicious cycle, I will call 

[19:44] Gerrit: Yeah, 

[19:45] Enrico: right, it actually drags me down. And in the worst of scenarios, it drags other people down with me. And that can be a spouse, that can be a child, or that can be a colleague or a direct report, a team, an organization. So I think there, there are many examples, right? Where if I can have the ability to step back and say, it's okay, you're doing your best. It relieves a lot of that negative speech and negative thought, and I think we can apply it in so many different contexts.

[20:21] Martin: I, I have a short example to build on what you just said, where I, as a leader, tried to tell the team, it's okay, we can fix this. And I got the backlash from one team member. And what I failed was that I thought everybody sees and feels the situation the same as me. I didn't apply enough empathy to understand each individual team member. And for one person, it was definitely not okay to say it's fine at this moment. I wanted to provide stability, a sense of comeback, and it totally backfired. So I think this, for me, it was a sign, and what I reflected later was, I need to take the time to listen. 

[21:08] Gerrit: Yeah, wonderful example, Martin, I really love it. While I was listening, also an example, a current example came to mind for me. We're recording this while I'm in Thailand, I've been in Thailand for 20 years. And in six days, I'm relocating to Germany, and it is a very stressful time. And I actually shared with Enrico before we started the recording, and I was like, six days left, and to tick off everything, my to do list, it feels like I need 60 days. And I think that is then also an opportunity for being empathetic to myself, having self compassion and say, you know, I can go crazy right now, or actually my body needs some rest. And that also then simply make time to rest and recover and not push through like crazy. So I think the point that I want to make here is empathy to yourself, self compassion is a lot, yeah, you know, it's time to rest now. Because we live in a time that is so fast paced, and, um, it's, there's never enough time in any given day. 

[22:25] Enrico: And maybe I can give you my empathy in this one would be, and it's okay if you don't manage all the things on the list. You're probably still going to move to Germany in six days.

[22:35] Gerrit: That's right. It's a wonderful opportunity to practice letting go.

[22:42] Enrico: I'm, I'm reflecting, I'm reflecting a little bit more and to give more example here, right? I think we tend to be really good at giving the empathy when people have personal challenges at work. At least in my company, I work, work for a great employer, you know. If you say tomorrow, my mother is sick or my child needs surgery, everybody will say, take your time, don't, don't worry, the group, the team will cover for you, maybe also again, maybe very Asian, that the community will step up, the collective will, will allow you to do what you need to do. How come it needs so bad moments, for us to recognize that there is this level of empathy, right. Why can't we have that in a more normal, if I may say so, in a normal situation, right, why does it have to go south all the way? you know, yeah, I think you understand where I'm going with this, you know, why, as a leader, if I can apply this in a, in an almost everyday setting where people feel like, okay, he teaches empathy, but he also practices self empathy or self compassion. I think it will take away a lot of issues, challenges, little nagging, and you know, and all these things. I think it will just disappear slowly over time in an organization.

[24:02] Gerrit: It's a wonderful example, and it actually builds a wonderful bridge to this last point of humor, because isn't it also about putting things into perspective, how bad is it really? And, I think once we realize, yeah, it's not the end of the world, that is perhaps, uh, a moment where we can bring in humor. Or the other way around, we can use humor to, let people know that it's not the end of the world. What's, what's your take on the humor side?

[24:38] Enrico: Yeah, I really like what you just said. And to me, the connection is humor is human. It's a human thing. You know, I guess I'm not a language expert, but at least the first three letters, they're the same, right. And, and I do think that sometimes a little laugh and a little lightness, even in a difficult moment, it's not malplaced. There's maybe the wrong timing for it, if everybody is freaking out, then maybe that's not the moment to make a joke. But if you got through some of that initial phase and you created some curiosity or growth mindset and you have a little bit of empathy and everybody understands this is difficult, then maybe the timing is right to make a joke. And it might be that last step to take the negativity and to take the fear, also out of the room. And then you are back into safety and psychological safety and those other things that we need in order to move forward. So, again, I don't think I'm a clown, I don't think I make a lot of silly jokes, but taking some of that heat out with a little bit of a jokey comment and, and I do like to also, make a little bit of a joke about yourself. so then you're not blaming somebody else or you're not creating this image that you're, you're using somebody else's, bad situation or whatever it is. So, so I think in a moment like this, the team is challenged, you can feel the energy is a bit down and there's some worries. If you got the intellectually, everybody on the right track, if people understand, hey this leader or this group takes care of themselves with empathy, and a little joke here and there, I think it can really help to move you forward in that journey to overcome whatever challenge you have in front of you.

[26:33] Gerrit: Very nice. and just picking up the timing that needs to be right, as you mentioned, because I think humor can also be risky in a way, it can backfire. You know, it's not a funny situation, or are you not getting how serious it is? And I think actually here, there is also the leadership aspect, right? Because, as the leader, it's maybe easier to say, well, this is a moment where it's not so serious, or even though it appears serious, we, we can still be human. And very important, like you said, when there's fear involved, it only leads to fight or flight and we don't want this, right? So if you can take this out of the situation, and people come back to what you said in the beginning, can find balance in this stressful situation, then they can also be innovative and develop creative solutions for the situation.

[27:31] Martin: I'm, I'm reflecting on this also humor or the self depreciation doesn't always need to be verbal. I think it can just be, with a smile when there is a tense situation as a leader to think about my body posture. Do I look all stressed and serious and angry, or can I relax and have a smile, and make my shoulders go down and make everybody relax? I think this also helps a great deal on the road to show the human side.

[28:05] Enrico: I fully agree. I, you know, when, when you're both talking to me, the, the word that comes up, if, if, if I think about humor in these moments where it's maybe a bit difficult, right, or it's a bit dangerous, Gerrit, I think you said, right? It's an intuitive thing to me, like you don't plan for it. I think the moment you plan for it, the joke's not that good. Unless you're a professional comedian and you have built a perfect storytelling exercise. But I think if, if the moment is right and if you know the team around you and the group around you, you can feel the joy. Okay, let's just all let it out a little bit by, yeah, by making a funny comment about oneself or about the situation in general and say, guys, come on, you know, well, it's not gonna, well, it's not gonna stop today. It's not going to stop tomorrow.

[28:56] Gerrit: Yeah, it seems to me that we have covered the curiosity, empathy, humor. What else is there when we talk about resilience?

[29:08] Enrico: I think you're, you, you hit on a point that I've talked about before thinking about balance, right? And that's where I, I've had the biggest learnings in my life over the last couple of years where I have not been balanced. I've just simply not been balanced. Very IQ focused, I don't think my EQ is poor, but very IQ focused, very brain heavy, very much about, yeah, being ambitious and leveraging my brain and using my physical body maybe to get me there, but really focusing on the brain part. And, and in moments of real resilience, I have to recognize that it's most often not the brain that's going to get you through the real depth of it. But there is a spiritual element, and there for sure is a physical element on how your body responds. And that can be stress, people that get migraines and back pain and those kinds of things can probably relate to this.

[30:07] Um, so I think having this balance, being able to, to not only rely on one of, on one of these elements, but recognizing there's more to, to leverage when you go through the tough times. And, and again, this can be in private, or this can be in a professional setting, but, but my, one of my big learnings is, don't just rely on your brain. Your brain probably wants to control it, and it's going to manipulate you in a way even. To be very vulnerable here, I fall into math. I do math because math is like, it's right or wrong, right? So I do statistics on probabilities of hitting this number and hitting the sales forecast and blah, blah, blah. It's not going to make any difference, but it gives me a sense of control. And so what I'm, what I'm trying to work on and what I'm, what I've learned is if I can get more of that body, that physical element into it, staying healthy, sleeping well, eating well, but also listening to my body. 

[31:07] And then the spiritual side, which probably not so often talked about in the Western world, but more so in the Asian context. How, how, can I maintain those three in a balance? And that doesn't mean it's a third, a third, a third. That's not what I'm trying to say, but at least not ignoring some of those other elements that can really help, especially when, when the floor breaks, uh, breaks underneath your feet. That's, that's one of the big things that I'm working on in a day to day setting, actually.

[31:39] Martin: Uh, I’m speechless because I'm learning so much. And also when I'm listening to your voice, uh, Enrico, how your voice projects a calmness when you speak about these topics. And so many times during our conversation, you're also saying something similar to, I'm working on this, I'm not perfect. And I'm thinking to achieve balance, like you're saying, this is also the learning journey an ongoing learning journey that you so calmly project. And this is something that I take with me. And, and personally, when I'm thinking about this, then in, in my situations, looking back at how can I handle challenging situations in a more calm, in a more balanced approach, looking at curiosity, looking at empathy, looking at, at humor, and perhaps seeing which one of those have I been missing, to have a more successful approach. Coming out stronger coming out, with more learning, and as a better person at the end. 

[32:56] Enrico: Thank you very much. I wish I would be this calm all the time, but, you're also creating an environment where it's easy to be calm around these topics. I, I really like Martin, what you said in the end. And if I think back at some of the toughest moments that I had in life. And some of them were tough, not, the Facebook life, and the LinkedIn life, it always looks perfect, right. But in reality, there are tough moments behind what everyone has to deal with at work and in private. And sometimes it takes longer, but,  I like to look back at some of the challenges and say, look, I'm not thankful that I had this challenge, but I'm thankful for what I got out of overcoming this challenge.  I mean, I don't have to have this challenge again. But at the same time, I can say, but I got something out of it. And that, I think, is a calming way to look at it when you look at it backwards. And then having been through some of those things, you apply it moving forward. So when the next challenge comes, you're a little bit more resilient. And you know, okay, I managed the last one, I think I can handle the next one too.

[34:09] Gerrit: Maybe just to add on what Martin said, I mean, Enrico, I've known you only for, maybe half a year or so, but I can also say that, you obviously practice what you preach, and Martin, you said something, you can't really, find one word for it, but the word that comes to my mind is really presence. And I think that also plays a huge role when we talk about resilience. Can I really be in the present moment, or am I in the past, still worried about the mistake that I or somebody else has made, and I wish I could turn back time and change it, but obviously the past is the past. Or am I already in the future worried about what might happen, or can I just be here? And I always feel when people are present, when they are in the present moment, then they exhibit this calmness that is contagious to other people. And, yeah, keep doing that.

[35:11] Martin: Wonderful. I really like how we can kind of wrap this together. And I think in our conversation, we have been really present and I feeling I've been drawn in to be really, really present. I think that was a great word for me. Thank you, Gerrit, to add that.

[35:31] Gerrit: Right. And you added the word, the wrap up. Um, is there anything else that we should include in the wrap up or should we move on to some reflection questions?

[35:43] Martin: I'm ready for reflection question. I have one.

[35:46] Gerrit: Then Martin, why don't you start?

[35:49] Martin: Yeah, based on what I learned from Enrico, my reflection question and I will practice this, the coming days. Think back to some of the situations that you had to overcome where you felt out of control. And think about what happened. How do you respond? How do you feel? Tap into that and see what you can learn from that. And personally, I will actually use Enrico's three points, curiosity, empathy, and humor and try to think back. Did I use it? And if I, how did it help me? And, and you can hear I'm an engineer, I'm a square head, I'm happy when I have a pattern to follow, a process to follow. But I think really, this would be something very interesting to reflect on, at least for me personally.

[36:48] Gerrit: Nice, and Enrico, would you like to go next?   

[36:51] Enrico: Yeah, I can.   I wish I would have thought about these things many years ago, right? I really have only collected them in the last couple of years, so I like the engineer mindset, Martin, on this. I think, Gerrit, actually, you really hit the nail on the head for me in the end, and my reflection question is: What can I do to be this present all the time?

[37:16] Gerrit: Wow.

[37:17] Enrico: That's where I struggle. I also get carried away and I'm on my phone too much when I should be with my kids, or I'm answering an email while I'm in a conversation and, and that's not nice. Uh, and I do it sometimes, hopefully not all the time, but I do it sometimes. So what can I do to have this presence all the time?

[37:37] Gerrit: Fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. And to me, I'm still struggling in finding the exact question. It goes into the direction of who are you, or who do you aspire to be? So in the context of leadership, what kind of leader do you really want to be? And this relates then to the aspiration, what really matters to you? What's most important in your life? Because it may not sound immediately like it's the recipe to be more resilient, but I think let's say when we have a clear direction in life, when we know what really matters, then we can also more easily deal with the challenges being clear about our direction in life helps then to be on the right path, and to find the energy to overcome the challenge, and we know why we're doing it, and we can also put it into perspective. Is is it something that really matters, or is it that some people try to make very important? 

[38:47] All right, Enrico, if if people are listening to the episode would like to get in touch with you, what would be the best way for them to do that?

[38:59] Enrico: Yeah, they can just reach out via LinkedIn, that's probably the easiest way. You can look up my name, write me a message. That's, that's totally fine.

[39:07] Gerrit: And we can also add a link to the, session notes. Yeah, gentlemen, thank you very much. It was a great pleasure recording with you. So this concludes today's episode, Enrico.

[39:22] Enrico: Thank you for having me. I just want to say thanks a lot. It was a great conversation. Very interesting. I learned quite a bit too, and it's always good to keep on reflecting and seeing what we can do even more of, or less of, to be a better version of ourselves.

[39:38] Gerrit: Thank you for being a wonderful guest and this concludes today's episode. If you like what we do, please remember to subscribe to Second Crack on your favorite podcast platform. And it would also be wonderful if you could recommend our podcast to a friend. And of course, we would love it if you could leave a positive comment or rating.

[39:59] For more insights about Martin's and my work, please visit our website, secondcrackleadership.com, that's all in one word. And we are also curious to receive your feedback, your questions and comments. Feel free to reach out to us at hello at secondcrackleadership.com. 

Bye for now.