Karen is a bright, loud and funny secondary school teacher. She currently teaches English and Performing Arts and when she retires next year she plans to have a go at stand-up comedy.
"I love performing to an audience," she says.
Karen has also experienced some very extreme lows in her life struggling with depression and anxiety. One episode, after the birth of her son due to post-natal depression led to her being sectioned.
Karen was a county athlete and started running as a teenager. She has continued to run throughout her adult life – consistently for the last 40 years. For her, it is a way of helping process the anxiety, the anger and frustration that are part of her mental struggles. It quite literally helps her to burn away the excess adrenalin that contributes to her anxiety.
" I know when I’m doing it that I will feel absolutely great when I’ve finished and that reward is enough to make me do it," she says.
Karen laughs that she can be quite an angry runner and it certainly isn't a calming experience for her. She loves to run alone and is competitive about her time. "God help anyone who gets in my way!" she says.
If she doesn't run, Karen can get quite low. "The idea of not running is too frightening. I’m frightened that my mind will start to go and I’ll go in to some kind of dark place. When I’m very, very, very ill, I can’t run, because I’m just too frightened and I become quite agoraphobic. But that’s not happened very much."
Karen’s life is one of extreme emotions and she says she wouldn’t want it any different – for if she lost the low moments of despair, she would also lose the high moments of joy too.
PLEASE NOTE - this episode contains references to suicide.
Read Karen's full story here
Instagram and Facebook: @whyrunpodcast
For further information about Why Run? visit: www.whyrun.uk
Thank you for listening today.
For more details on Why Run? visit: www.whyrun.uk
Follow @whyrunpodcast on Instagram and Facebook
And if you've enjoyed the show, do please leave a review and tell your friends.
Karen is a bright, loud and funny secondary school teacher. She currently teaches English and Performing Arts and when she retires next year she plans to have a go at stand-up comedy.
"I love performing to an audience," she says.
Karen has also experienced some very extreme lows in her life struggling with depression and anxiety. One episode, after the birth of her son due to post-natal depression led to her being sectioned.
Karen was a county athlete and started running as a teenager. She has continued to run throughout her adult life – consistently for the last 40 years. For her, it is a way of helping process the anxiety, the anger and frustration that are part of her mental struggles. It quite literally helps her to burn away the excess adrenalin that contributes to her anxiety.
" I know when I’m doing it that I will feel absolutely great when I’ve finished and that reward is enough to make me do it," she says.
Karen laughs that she can be quite an angry runner and it certainly isn't a calming experience for her. She loves to run alone and is competitive about her time. "God help anyone who gets in my way!" she says.
If she doesn't run, Karen can get quite low. "The idea of not running is too frightening. I’m frightened that my mind will start to go and I’ll go in to some kind of dark place. When I’m very, very, very ill, I can’t run, because I’m just too frightened and I become quite agoraphobic. But that’s not happened very much."
Karen’s life is one of extreme emotions and she says she wouldn’t want it any different – for if she lost the low moments of despair, she would also lose the high moments of joy too.
PLEASE NOTE - this episode contains references to suicide.
Read Karen's full story here
Instagram and Facebook: @whyrunpodcast
For further information about Why Run? visit: www.whyrun.uk
Thank you for listening today.
For more details on Why Run? visit: www.whyrun.uk
Follow @whyrunpodcast on Instagram and Facebook
And if you've enjoyed the show, do please leave a review and tell your friends.
Hello and welcome to this – the last episode in the first series of Why Run?
My guest today is Karen, a secondary school English and performing arts teacher. Karen is one of the brightest, funniest people you could hope to meet and her next plan in life is to have a go at stand-up comedy.
In-between Karen’s extended periods of highs in her life, she has also experienced some very low lows. For Karen has struggled with depression and anxiety throughout her adult life and has had several breakdowns.
Karen started running as a teenager and has run throughout her adult life – consistently for the last 40 years. For her, it is a way of helping process the anxiety, the anger and frustration that are part of her mental struggles. It quite literally helps her to burn away the excess adrenalin that contributes to her anxiety.
Karen’s life is one of extreme emotions and she says she wouldn’t want it any different – for if she lost the low moments of despair, she would also lose the high moments of joy too.
I started off by asking Karen, when she first became concerned about her mental health.
KAREN (1:40)
The more I think about myself now, I was a worrier as a child. Being an only child had a lot of older, doting relatives. Grew up in very protective environment. As a five year old, friend remembers her always crying. Knew I was a worrier. Thinks got to me. Reached a head, when went to uni and met Sohrab (her husband). We were going out and he went home to Iran which was, of course, the time of the revolution. Pre-mobile phones, realise now I had what was a sort of breakdown. I was worried sick. Obsessed that he was killed. Was typical of depression and a breakdown, getting everything out of proportion. Making ridiculous assumptions. Things settled down though when I went to university.
My second breakdown was when I had my son. It was such a happy pregnancy, he was such a wanted child. And when he was born, it was classic post -natal depression. It was like the whole world fell in. That ticked away until he was about 18 months and then I just crashed and I was sectioned. So spent about four weeks in psychiatric units
DIANE (4:40)
That’s obviously pretty extreme. Did you find there was help for you?
KAREN (4:45)
Well, yes, in that I got help and being seen by psychiatrists and when I came out there was support for quite a long time. I went to a group therapy session which I hated and I was on medication. I’ve basically been on medication ever since. I’m still on anti-depressant medication. Quite a high dosage actually. So I feel that there’s probably those are always shielding, masking what’s actually going on. I don’t really know, but I don’t really care as I know I can’t function when I’m ill. So yes, there was help, but did it help me? I’m don’t know. There were such weird days and that just feels so historic now.
I’d wake up in the morning in hospital and I’d wake up and I’d feel normal and then, there would be this moment when there’d be a flood of dread, which would just wash over me. And then I’d just start to shake and be terrified. It would get better as the day went on, so by the time I went to bed, I’d feel normal again and then I’d go to bed, wake up and exactly the same thing would happen again. It was like Groundhog Day.
DIANE (6:50)
That’s exhausting!
KAREN (6:55)
Yes it was. And there were days when I’d just sit and cry and rock all morning. I can remember being curled up in a corner and wanting to bang my head against a wall.
DIANE (7:18)
Have you ever had suicidal thoughts?
KAREN (7:22)
Oh God yes. The only things that would stop me are a downright fear of dying , because I actually don’t want to be dead, and my kids.
DIANE (7:40)
So when did running enter the equation?
KAREN (7.42)
I’ve always run. I was a county athlete. I say that with a smile, as it was a joke between me and my daughter, as it was something I often said! Sport has always been something that’s interested me – as a competitor – not a spectator. So I was on all the school teams, even at uni.
I really started to run again when I was in my early 20s, because my dad also suffered with mental health problems and he started running. He was always a fitness fanatic and used to weight lift when I was a kid. And in mid-70s jogging took off and my dad had struggled on and off with his mental health. And he started jogging, and when I came home from uni I did it with him and liked it. I’ve never stopped. I ran through both pregnancies. The only time I stopped was when I was breastfeeding as you can’t run when your boobs are full of milk and it’s going everywhere….
DIANE (9:57)
That’s amazing. So what sort of distances do you run and what distances?
KAREN (10;03)
What now? Well I ran 10k this morning and it often ends up being a bit further. I try to run 2 x 5k a week and there’s an 8k that I like to fit in if I can. I always run three times at the weekend, it’s the mid-week run I sometimes struggle with because of work.
DIANE (10:40)
And what do you get out of it? Why do you do it?
KAREN (10:43)
Well, I hated it this morning. It was windy and I suffer from Irritable Bowel Syndrome, so I did have to stop for a crap in a bush halfway round today. It’s not unusual. And I’ve done it now, and now I feel absolutely great. I know when I’m doing it that I will feel absolutely great when I’ve finished and that reward is enough to make me do it.
DIANE (11:15)
That’s absolutely true for me too. I would say the first year I didn’t particularly enjoy it at all, but it made me feel so much better afterwards and I haven’t had the severity of mental health issues that you have, but I can get pretty low moods. It’s just a way of resetting the clock and it feels like you’ve got a fresh start.
KAREN (11:48)
That’s a really good way of describing it actually. It resets everything. Even if when I set off, I feel I’ve got worries or am in a low mood, which still happens, even on all these anti-depressants…once I’ve set off running, I very rarely think of that again. If I’m really bad, I have had thoughts of throwing myself in the river and I know then I’m really bad. I haven’t yet. But it resets me.
A psychiatrist once described it as “fight or flight” and he said that what was happening to me when I’d wake up so anxious waking up with a gripping fear – without knowing what I was frightened of. So you want to run away from it, but it’s inappropriate as “where would I run?” Well now, I do run from it, even though I’m going round in a circle.
It gets rid of all that adrenalin that’s causing the anxiety.
DIANE (13:26)
Do you have any conscious thoughts as you’re going round?
KAREN (13.30)
I always listen to music. I didn’t use to, but I do now, which is part of the joy of it, because at home, we very rarely listen to music in the house. My husband very much likes the spoken word, so he generally has on Radio Four or the World Service.
I can be quite an angry runner. Someone accused me of kicking his dog on Monday. I didn’t! I did however brush it away, because I was attacked by a dog and I was once tripped over by a black Labrador and since then, I’ve had this fear of tripping over a dog!
I have been known to swear at people. I think I enjoy that.
DIANE (14:59)
So for you, it’s an outlet for a lot of emotions. It’s not like calm karma! It’s getting rid of all that stress and those feelings from your system.
KAREN (15.16)
Do you time yourself?
DIANE (15:21)
I think I’m a bit unusual. Because I don’t run a set distance, I’ve always done it by time. Because I followed the couchto5k app. I often finish 10-15 mins from home and I like to walk back and have that reflective time after my run.
KAREN (16:00)
Because I am very competitive. So that’s also part of it so sometimes, it actually hurts. I do 5k in just over 30 minutes and I try to get under 30 mins and it matters to me. Which is part of the rage thing, because God help anyone who gets in my way, so I have to choose my routes carefully so I don’t get angry.
I can be quite an aggressive person. I’m not a calm person.
DIANE (16:44)
But it’s great to have an outlet like that. What sort of music do you listen to?
KAREN (16:56)
Well it’s eclectic. I’m also really, really bad at rearranging the music on my iPod -thing so I’ll be running along in the middle of August and suddenly a Christmas record will come on. And one wonderful moment when I was doing my MA, Bertolt Brecht came on The Threepenny Opera, which is not conducive to good running.
Ideally I really like rap music or funk. Anything with a strong rhythm. The words of some of this rap music are quite obscene!
DIANE (18:05)
So, do you ever run with anyone else?
KAREN (18:10)
No!! I don’t want to either. Me and my daughter are both in Cambridge Half Marathon together in October. She’s super-fast, which I used to be too when I was younger.
So I suspect we’ll start off together and meet again at the end.
People have suggested running together, but no, that’s not going to happen.
DIANE (19:00)
Apart from breastfeeding and babies and things, have there been any times when you haven’t run? just wondering if you could compare running and non-running Karen? If you don’t go for a run do you feel any different.
KAREN (19:25)
Yeah, awful. I’ve had injuries and I get quite low if I can’t run. To the extent that I sometimes run through injuries when I shouldn’t. Because the idea of not running is too frightening. I’m frightened that my mind will start to go and I’ll go in to some kind of dark place.
When I’m very, very, very ill, I can’t run, because I’m just too frightened and I become quite agoraphobic. But that’s not happened very much.
DIANE (20:17)
Just in terms of your mental health, can you describe a bit more about the anxiety and worry that you experience. Because I think that’s something that some people find difficult to grasp.
KAREN (20:27)
It is incredibly difficult. And I find I get annoyed with myself sometimes for finding it so difficult to describe. Reading Sylvia Plath “The Bell Jar” and she tries to describe her breakdown and I get that, but I still don’t think she’s got it. Although I also say to people that everybody’s breakdown is different and everybody’s depression is different.
I obsess about death and I find myself thinking about death several times a day – the fear of my own death or my children. I count off how many years I’ve got left and it’s a constant obsession and definitely something that pulls me down. It is a constant worry in the back of my mind.
The last really bad breakdown I had in about 2015, that was one of the problems. I got so obsessed with it. I was just sitting in the garden just staring into space just thinking about being dead – trying to imagine what it would be like to be dead – that’s not normal!
It’s like when somebody says school dinners are really horrible, but then they ask for more. It’s like that. Why am I so depressed at some points that don’t want to live and yet, I’m frightened of dying.
DIANE (22:36)
I read Matt Haig’s book “Reasons to Live” (should have been “Reasons to Stay Alive”) and he describes his depression in that very well. He had a breakdown. This idea that people who are depressed and can’t motivate themselves and he says how his depression was nothing like that, he was obsessing and had constant anxiety and it was exhausting.
KAREN (23:14)
I’d agree with that, because you can’t switch off. My mind just wouldn’t stop. I still have a tendency to catastrophise things and I can almost feel it, like your heart sinking. It’s like a physical feeling.
If I had a sudden worry I really fret to the extent that I can’t think about anything else.
DIANE (23:52)
I think mental health feelings are normal feelings, but they’re just taken to a more extreme level. Are you able to intervene when you see the signs?
KAREN (24:13)
Sometimes I am. It depends upon the severity. Sometimes no amount of reasoning . My husband will say to me, “come on, you know it’s going to pass, it’s just a momentary feeling” and sometimes, I’ll get very angry and say, “no, this time is different”.
And I quite frequently feel that. I still have moments of despair, just real sadness…sorry.
DIANE ( 24:59)
No, don’t be. I think it’s really important to take about things like this, because they’re far more common than we realise.
You say that the running really helps you, what other selfcare do you practise?
KAREN (25:27)
I’ve realised now I’m getting better of situations. I’ve made my bedroom in to a second sitting room and it’s got a television and if things are getting to me, I just take myself away and sit by myself.
Just indulging myself more really. I think I grew up in an environment where it was almost a bad thing to enjoy yourself or do something for yourself. My mum was like “you’re always going out” like it was something bad. My mother didn’t understand mental illness at all – poor woman – with me and my dad – and she was obsessed with doing housework. So the idea that you’d sit and read or book or something – was an indulgence.
Well now I’m trying to turn that around and think actually, why can’t I just indulge myself whenever I want?
I wouldn’t be anyone different. I do see my tendencies to depression and anxiety as partly what defines me. It’s part also of what makes me this very competitive, loud person. I want to do a stand-up act and it’s something that’s really important to me. I like being on stage. I’m a performing arts teacher. I like acting. I like talking to cowards. I’m really loud. And I don’t think I’d have all of that, if I didn’t have this other side to me. It would be a bit bland.
I have extremes and I wouldn’t swap those highs for anything. This is who I am. If I eradicated that depressive side of me, I think I’d also eradicate the other bit and just be this flat person, and I don’t want to be a flat person thank you very much.
DIANE (28:31)
So would you say that running has been a pretty stabilising influence in your mental health?
KAREN (28:37)
Yes I would. Definitely. I hired a personal trainer recently and that shocked me as I wasn’t as fit as I thought I was and she kept saying “you’re 62 years old. You’re really fit for your age” but there were some things I couldn’t do.
DIANE (29;36)
What would you say to other people thinking of running?
KAREN (29:40)
I very often say to the teenagers I work with if they’ve tried running and I did run with this friend of mine who was having a breakdown. I also tore a ligament when I ran with him and couldn’t run for ages and really suffered for that. I did say to him, “keep your running up”. Interestingly my psychiatrist runs. And he would almost prescribe it, it’s just so important to keep moving…even if you’re not running…to keep walking…getting out. And I did feel in lockdown on those days when I was just sitting on screen for hours on end and I’d feel like a lethargic slug by the end of the day. Because you’d be stuck in this position .
I think people are designed to move. Our lifestyle isn’t really normal for any animal – unless you’re a sloth – it’s not what we’re designed for. So I suspect running is a way of replacing that movement that we used to have in our lives.