Managing Credit Risk in Global Freight Forwarding with Josh Simon

Navigate the intricate world of credit risk management with Josh Simon of JAS Worldwide, who brings over 30 years of expertise to decode the essentials for safeguarding your supply chain finance. In an industry where the health of receivables can make or break a business, Josh's insights on robust metrics, informed credit decision-making, and the art of categorizing invoice statuses are nothing short of critical intelligence. We travel to Atlanta for a candid conversation that reveals how this global freight forwarder juggles operations across 100 countries and why the evolution of Josh’s role is a masterclass in adapting to the complexities of global trade.

Through our talk, we uncover the hurdles of assessing credit risk amidst a sea of incomplete information and shine a light on the strategic alliances with data providers like CreditSafe that bring clarity to the chaos. The fusion of credit risk management and project management principles becomes evident as we discuss stakeholder buy-in, the vital RFP/RFQ processes, and how a symbiotic relationship between sales and risk departments is fostered by comprehensive data. If you're looking to strengthen your team dynamics and project success through cooperative credit risk strategies, Josh Simon's experiences and strategies are your invaluable guide.

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Transcript

Tony Hines, Chain Reaction: 0:05

Hello, Tony Hines. Here You're listening to the Chain Reaction Podcast, all about supply chain advantage. Great episode coming up with Josh Simon. And Josh is the Global Risk and Receivables Director for a company called JAS Worldwide and they're a freight forwarding company and they operate in 100 countries worldwide. So stay tuned, stick around and find out more. When it comes to thinking about supply chains, we don't very often think about the money flows, but of course, that's an important part of supply chain management.

Tony Hines, Chain Reaction: 0:39

We have to make sure that customers pay on time and we have to find out if there are any problems behind what's going on for a delay in payment and, of course, before we even start dealing with anybody, we have to know about credit risk and we have to decide on whether to go with a particular company or not. So we have all those particular aspects that we have to think about. Now I wanted to find out a bit more about how this actually works, so I headed off to Atlanta to speak to Josh Simon, and he is the Global Risk and Receivables Director at JAS Worldwide and this is what he had to say Hello, josh, thanks for joining us today on the Chain Reaction Podcast. It's a great pleasure to have you along on the show.

Josh Simon, JAS: 1:29

My pleasure, Tony. Thanks for having me.

Tony Hines, Chain Reaction: 1:31

Now, josh, you've got a lot of experience in this area, and I think you spent over three decades or so working on credit risk and accounts receivable, so can you tell us a little bit about your experience and your background?

Josh Simon, JAS: 1:44

To start out, prior to joining JAS Worldwide, I worked for General Electric for 33 years right out of university, and most of my roles at GE involved things like receivables management and also project management. And one of the things that I loved about GE was the global reach of the company, and I find it very rewarding, satisfying, to accomplish good things all over the world, working with people from all over the world.

Tony Hines, Chain Reaction: 2:20

So tell me, Josh, how do you come to find yourself now at JAS Worldwide? Perhaps you could tell us about that.

Josh Simon, JAS: 2:27

Absolutely so. Three years ago I was recruited by Jas because Jas, being a freight forwarder, has been experiencing and enjoying a lot of growth and therefore our CFO believed that some changes were needed to accommodate the fact that we're becoming a larger company. JAS is becoming a larger company and becoming more global than it already was and it already was considerably global, but that's just a ccelerating. So I was recruited to become the global risk and receivables director, so moved into that role three years ago, and that is mainly what my role has been, although fairly recently my role has also expanded to also include being the PMO or lead project manager for finance, and I find a lot of overlap and commonality between receivables management and project management.

Tony Hines, Chain Reaction: 3:35

Yeah, I saw that. I saw that you were in PMO as well, so that's really interesting, isn't it? And it does overlap very nicely. As you say, thinking about, perhaps in a little bit more detail, about credit risk and how you manage accounts receivable, what would you say are the key things you have to keep an eye on on a daily basis?

Josh Simon, JAS: 3:56

Definitely. Well, it is important and that's a really great question because it's important to have good measurements or metrics. I see a lot of comparisons between receivables management and, let's say, any sport you want to choose. They're very data rich, there's a lot of statistics and you need to know if you're winning or losing at any given time, and you can't know if you're winning or losing unless you're keeping score. So I would say one of the foundational pillars to any world-class receivables management organization is having good reporting with metrics, to know how things are going, are things getting better, are they getting worse? So that is very important needs to be looked at quite frequently. Some metrics should be looked at daily. Some can be less frequent than that. So that's one big thing.

Josh Simon, JAS: 4:52

It's very important to make good credit decisions and I have a feeling we'll be getting deeper into that in a moment Because if one makes bad credit decisions, no matter how rigorous one is with receivables management, a very fundamentally bad decision upfront cannot be overcome, typically with a great work, ethic and rigor towards receivables management.

Josh Simon, JAS: 5:17

So that is important, and maybe I could go on. But the only other thing I would add for now is I also think it is useful for any medium to large enterprise to be able to somehow codify the status of invoices. In other words, it's one thing if a customer owes your company, your employer, money to have a paragraph of what is going on, but it's important to have some way to amalgamate that data, to say, and have general categories. Just one example a very common reason why a customer might pay slowly is perhaps the customer honestly believes there's something wrong with the invoice, that the service provider made a mistake. It is good to know that. It is good for any business to know to what degree are mistakes that we are making adversely impacting our AR. So I think those are some of the very key foundational elements of successful receivables management.

Tony Hines, Chain Reaction: 6:22

Yeah, I think that's absolutely right, josh of successful receivables management. Yeah, I think that's absolutely right, josh. I mean right on the button there with you know, credit risk is the key to the whole thing, really, I mean you can't fix a sieve, can you?

Tony Hines, Chain Reaction: 6:33

You need to actually get that right in the first place, and perhaps it's interesting to talk about that a little bit more. As you said, you know going into that credit risk because I know you're in 100 countries across the world and getting that kind of picture from that kind of global marketplace is quite tricky, isn't?

Josh Simon, JAS: 6:53

it? It certainly is, and when I joined jazz, you know we were in a different situation from where we are now. One of the things I encountered in joining Jazz again recognizing it is getting bigger. The reach is becoming even more global. Some changes were needed. This is a great example of an area where changes were needed and changes were made.

Josh Simon, JAS: 7:16

So our picture before I joined Jazz and before CreditSafe, let's say, became more involved with us is we were using disparate solutions throughout the world, of varying quality. Some were quite good, some maybe were the other end of the spectrum, and we did not have a common approach to making credit decisions. One cannot know if one strategy is working if one does not even have a strategy. It's okay to have a mediocre strategy and then analyze it over time how do what? How can I tweak this approach? But if it's, if you don't even have an approach, then it becomes really tricky. So one of the indeed uh, one of the first things that um changed when I moved into this role was, uh, finding a common solution to making these credit decisions, and that's uh.

Tony Hines, Chain Reaction: 8:18

In this case, we partnered with credit safe yeah, I mean I saw that and, and it worked out to give you this kind of window with the kpis I suppose, which are yeah, I mean I saw that and and it's worked out to give you this kind of window with the kpis, I suppose, which are consistent. I mean, one of the problems that I guess everybody struggles with is getting this kind of standardized information, and I think standardized information and seeing the patterns across the piece is key to everything that you do in your work, isn't it?

Josh Simon, JAS: 8:42

Definitely so. That is the case. Creditsafe has been very helpful in this area in that we now have a common provider where reports, reports and the scoring methodology is totally different and, rather than becoming an expert on what 50 different providers do, if you can find one good provider, that is very helpful to compare apples to apples, as it were.

Tony Hines, Chain Reaction: 9:21

Saves time, gets the flow of information in a consistent format, the team can understand it as well and I think that's pretty important and the people at the different locations can understand what's going on. So talk me through some of the problems that you've experienced prior to going with CreditSafe, and then perhaps we can move on to the benefits that you got by working with CreditSafe.

Josh Simon, JAS: 9:47

Sure. So prior to working with CreditSafe on the credit decision side of things, again, we were using multiple providers. All the reports were different formats, different methodology. So, for example, as one might imagine, larger, more significant credit decisions perhaps need to be escalated beyond a specific country where our employees in that country were accustomed to that one solution. Suddenly, maybe once a year, I would see a report from a country where maybe we're doing a little business but not a lot, and I need to remember how do I read that report again that I haven't seen in one year. So by having a common solution, that has really helped us. We also previously, before having CreditSafe, each country, well to a degree, had a different philosophy towards credit. How should we approach all of this? So CreditSafe has really helped us in that area.

Josh Simon, JAS: 10:55

I would say another problem that we've had is just a challenge I think almost every business has, and I don't even know if I need to say almost is. At times there may be a lack of information. Where we've gone to whoever the provider is, we've asked for information about a prospective customer and what has come back, let's say, is, to one degree or another, insufficient information, and we accept that we need to make decisions based on imperfect information. That's the nature of business. But we're hoping we can do a little better. So but with some of the providers, whatever they would give us, it's sort of like that's it tough luck.

Josh Simon, JAS: 11:38

But one of the benefits we're seeing with CreditSafe is what are called international investigations or fresh investigations. If, hypothetically we're trying to assess a company, what CreditSafe comes back to us with maybe is not quite sufficient. We have an opportunity to communicate with CreditSafe and explain we really need more to help us. We can also pinpoint. Here is where our problem is. Perhaps the latest financial information is too old. Can we get newer financial information? Or it might be we have a general sense that this customer or potential customer is a subsidiary of another, of a larger parent, but we don't really understand the relationship. Can you please look into that and get back to us? And it has been so helpful to Jazz that CreditSafe can do this for us. So there's sort of like a second effort at times to get more information and that can sometimes make all the difference in a decision.

Tony Hines, Chain Reaction: 12:36

Yeah, that's right, I can see that and I can see that that could become a problem if you can't get to that level of information. If you can't get to that level of information, and disaggregating that information perhaps, as you say, from a subsidiary company uh, quite often where they're tied up to a bigger company that might be experiencing some problems or that you're unaware of, that could cause a real issue for the payment system. Perhaps that you're managingbeing of a parent company.

Josh Simon, JAS: 13:04

Uh, for the better or for the worse, can make a difference in the decision yeah.

Tony Hines, Chain Reaction: 13:14

So if we kind of think about countries, we've got a hundred of them. Uh, difficult to manage. It's difficult enough managing credit in one country and keeping theirast of the risk in just one of those hundred countries. So when you look at country risk, I mean, do you have a with credit safety? Get a kind of country analysis as well as the disaggregated micro level on the company that you're looking at? Do you look at the country risk in the wider context?

Josh Simon, JAS: 13:46

Yeah, to the degree that that is taken into account in the scoring that CreditSafe does. That is a factor. So from CreditSafe we get a couple different scores. The main ones we look at are numeric, on a scale of 1 to 100, but because in different parts of the world CreditSafe itself may be dealing with different scales, there's also a letter score that's more at a higher level, to be able to compare apples to apples, and a credit limit is recommended by CreditSafe, which is very helpful. And one of the factors that CreditSafe takes into account is country risk. Of course, a company like Jazz and I would imagine many companies, also take into account their own feelings. But our starting point is what is CreditSafe recommending? Then we ask ourselves is there any particular reason why we should go higher or lower? And one of the things that we take into account is our own assessment of country risk.

Tony Hines, Chain Reaction: 14:52

Yeah, and how do you do that then with your own assessment?

Josh Simon, JAS: 15:11

of the news and, you know, speaking with our local personnel in that country to get an assessment of things, and using at times, some other sources as well that specialize in specifically assessing country risk.

Tony Hines, Chain Reaction: 15:20

Yeah, so maybe you'll look at other reports, maybe like the Dun Bradstreet as well, or other agencies, will you?

Josh Simon, JAS: 15:29

Well, the funny thing is we really, as much as possible, specifically with regard to credit granting, we are very reliant these days on CreditSafe. So CreditSafe, I would say say, is definitely, it is our primary and or dominant solution. To a very limited degree in some countries around the world, typically, uh, with smaller economies, uh, at times we do use other sources, that's right understand yeah yeah, I mean that makes a lot of sense.

Tony Hines, Chain Reaction: 16:03

And it makes a lot, lot of sense to stick with an agency or a supplier like CreditSafe, who've got the wealth of experience in the global marketplace and you've got that data coming through in consistent form of KPIs that you look at. And this is always an interesting one, isn't it, when we talk about key performance indicators, because we say, well, we want key performance indicators, but how many are key? I mean, that's the question Can you have like hundreds of these things, or can you concentrate it down to fewer? I think you mentioned about 60, don't you?

Josh Simon, JAS: 16:44

That's right. We do have about 60, but only AR junkies such as myself probably regularly look at all 60 of them. I don't expect everyone to, let's say, have the same perspective. I do so, you're right. There's a much smaller number that we really focus on. And I would also say and that was one of the changes that gradually is made in our company just as, I would say, any successful organization gradually makes changes.

Josh Simon, JAS: 17:16

Those handful perhaps of major KPIs may evolve as far as what qualifies in our top half dozen or so, especially in the spirit of the fact that we get what we reward. So if we want people to do X, perhaps X should be one of our KPIs. And I'd also just like to say very briefly, related to the prior point, that so absolutely, we are using CreditSafe as our primary provider. In some cases with smaller economies, as I said, we use other providers. One of the things that an area where CreditSafe, I think, is enjoying success is, the list of countries where we need to use other sources is diminishing, as during our relationship, the relationship has improved and CreditSafe's capabilities are expanding. Yeah well, that's great. I mean, that says it all, doesn't it really? The relationship has improved and CreditSafe's capabilities are expanding.

Tony Hines, Chain Reaction: 18:09

Yeah Well, that's great. I mean, that says it all, doesn't it really? I mean, that's how important it is to work with somebody who can keep a tight rein on those things. Yeah, so let's think about the other role, perhaps that you've got this new role, this PMO role.

Josh Simon, JAS: 18:26

Can you?

Tony Hines, Chain Reaction: 18:26

tell us a little bit about that and what you're doing in that particular role.

Josh Simon, JAS: 18:31

Sure. Well, so PMO or project management office. What it really means is whatever an organization decides reaches the threshold of qualifying as a project, which I would say is some type of change that has achieved a certain materiality in the amount of resources and time necessary to say this is a bona fide project as opposed to just being a task or what have you. It fits in very well with what I was doing already and I would even say frankly, because of my background in project management, even have the Project Management Institute stamp for being certified. Essentially, you know, two and a half years ago, when we began our relationship with CreditSafe, I used the project management principles to make that happen, and that includes, just very briefly, getting the buy-in of key stakeholders and also the discipline we use in selecting credit safe in the first place An RFP or an RFQ, a request for a proposal or a request for a quotation.

Josh Simon, JAS: 19:44

So we used rigor in selecting CreditSafe in the first place, in that we got all the stakeholders involved almost 50. We agreed on what are we looking for in our provider and we came up with a handful of key things we were looking for. We agreed in advance how important each characteristic is. We considered a handful of CreditSafe's competitors along with CreditSafe and we, by the scoring methodology we agreed to in advance, we came up with CreditSafe. So our gut feel we had a really good feeling about CreditSafe told us CreditSafe is the answer, but so did that criteria we agreed on in advance.

Josh Simon, JAS: 20:27

But more to the point, so I'm really enjoying this evolution in my role in including project management because, like any dynamic, successful organization, jazz is undergoing many changes all the time and within the finance department that is no exception. The finance department, that is no exception. And fortunately, because I'm saving a little time these days in my initial role, thanks in part to enjoying some efficiencies from CreditSafe, I've been able to expand my role to include, as you saw from my perhaps CV in advance of this meeting, where my background was and there was a need for enhancing our project management, and I was at the right place at the right time.

Tony Hines, Chain Reaction: 21:13

Yeah, that's great and obviously that's a very important role, isn't it? And, as you say, turning something from a task into a project when it's big enough, if it's material enough, that's a really important focus to keep a handle on things, and so I think that kind of is related very closely to risk, isn't it?

Josh Simon, JAS: 21:32

It's related? Oh, 100%, because in any project of materiality, one of the elements that needs to be considered, of course, is risk the risk of completing the project or not completing the project. Sometimes organizations only ask if I make this change, what is the risk of doing it? But an organization should also ask itself what is the risk of not making this change? So there is that. And then, along the way, in any project, risks do come up and say, hey, life is complicated and so is business. So we believe this project is the right thing to do, but absolutely there are a few risks. It's the right thing to do, but it's not perfect.

Josh Simon, JAS: 22:18

And it's important in a project to identify what are potential risks so that the sponsors or leaders, senior leaders of an organization, can be aware of them and decide what do we want to do about these risks? Do we want to entirely cancel the project? From the other end of the spectrum, they say we can ignore these risks, in that we accept that they exist, but we will forge ahead. Or somewhere in the middle, do we say we, here are these risks, what can we do to minimize or mitigate these risks? Yeah, and and yes and uh. At the end of the day. Uh, of course, obviously with credit risk management. Even in the name there's also an element of risk management there is yes, yeah the clues in the name the clues in the name.

Tony Hines, Chain Reaction: 23:05

Yeah yeah, that's, that's great. I'm just thinking through in terms of I mean, I'm always keen to ask people. When I'm talking to them, I ask them questions and some of them they think, well, that's an interesting question. Or they think, well, he hasn't asked me this yet, I'm waiting for that one to come. So what question are you waiting for from me that I haven't asked you?

Josh Simon, JAS: 23:47

Oh well, I think that you know one question that may come up, or a perception that may exist in an organization, or people may think that so if I'm the risk guy, am I diametrically opposed to the sales team or the commercial team? And so, and what I find very interesting, and I think our experience with credit state brings this to light very much I do not at all see in my role, even though I'm supposed to be the most strict person in our organization in a way, in a way the one who ruins the party that sales is trying to throw. I really and this was one of the things that I wanted to change or help change within my organization that there does not need to be friction between sales, let's say, and the party pooper and risk. And what we see is a couple things. Number one I emphasize with our sales team and we agree. Now, first of all, what's really profound is I would say that and it's something I love about receivables management there is such a strong correlation between the state of receivables of a company and customer satisfaction. So show me a company that has problems with receivables. I think we'll also be looking at a company that has dissatisfied customers. So that's one thing. Also, just two other quick things the idea or the notion that managing receivables well is fundamental to continuing ongoing business. So if at times we're running into issues with customers, we can discuss with sales. Imagine if we didn't have this problem. Imagine if this account were in good standing. Then it wouldn't even be a question if we can expand the relationship.

Josh Simon, JAS: 25:34

And then, lastly, what I would say and here's an area where CreditSafe has helped us is oftentimes I get calls from sales because they're worried. On one hand there's the initial euphoria just have this wonderful meeting with this potential new client and I'm overwhelmed and overjoyed by how much business we might get. And then it dawns on them oh no, maybe Josh is going to somehow kill this whole thing. So they contact me and more often than not they're pleasantly surprised to see if we can get good information and we see what's going on, to say, hey, actually I agree with you, this is nothing but a good thing. This potential customer is fantastic and realistically, I don't desire to put any limit on how far our relationship can go with this customer. So that happens more often than not and I like it to be that I'm saying no so infrequently that it carries some credibility in that the sales organization acknowledges okay, it's not that often where Josh is saying, no, we can't do this. So you know, maybe there's some credibility to it.

Tony Hines, Chain Reaction: 26:41

Yeah, josh, he says yes, that's what they want to hear.

Josh Simon, JAS: 26:46

That's what they want to hear, and more often than not than not they do that's.

Tony Hines, Chain Reaction: 26:50

That's great. I mean that was a really good encapsulation of some of the problems. I mean I can tell you stories apocryphally about those sort of events in my own experience in the past I don't, but but uh, I won't bore you with those right now.

Tony Hines, Chain Reaction: 27:04

I'm sure you've got enough of your own. Uh, we're coming towards the end of the session here now, but I want to think about wrapping things up. I mean, you've given us a great understanding of what's going on here, but I'm going to ask you some offbeat questions just now. Tell me what keeps you awake at night and what is your favorite business book of all time.

Josh Simon, JAS: 27:27

What is your favorite business book of all time? Well, as far as what keeps me awake at night, I think these days, you know I'm feeling good about where our AR is. So I just think that we need to stick to the fundamentals. I think that there's just some key, fundamental elements to risk management and we need to stick to that. I guess what would worry me the most is things that I can't fully predict or foresee, to a point you made earlier today. It might be a geopolitical event, particularly one that maybe nobody could see coming. I can see a lot coming, so unfortunately it's a sign of the times. But I think there are some things that I can't control. So I try not to focus on what I cannot control or mitigate to any degree.

Josh Simon, JAS: 28:28

So I might have given you a different answer three years ago, but I'm liking the direction that my employer is in as far as business books. I guess I would just have to say, perhaps I guess I'm biased because of my 33 years with GE, I think you know I learned a lot there, went through a lot. So I would say now Jack Welsh, the most well-known and or notorious, depending on your perspective CEO in GE's history. He was the CEO there for about 20 years. He wrote a number of books. So I would say that, just from working for such a large corporation that had been through so many good things the rise and the fall, if you will, and the resurrection- what would you say?

Tony Hines, Chain Reaction: 29:17

your advice would be to anybody thinking about credit risk and going about the sort of task and the journey that you've been through for your business. What would be a good starting point for them to think about?

Josh Simon, JAS: 29:30

I think, looking back hey, I in my career I have known victory and defeat I consider our relationship, jazz's relationship with CreditSafe to be a victory and that went very well. So it probably wouldn't surprise you to know, fundamentally, if I had to do it all over again, I would approach it in a similar way, which would be to more pointedly answer your question. My advice would be to figure out who the stakeholders are, who in the organization would care about getting credit information and find out what they want and meet that. So some of the relatively more profound advice I would have at Jazz.

Josh Simon, JAS: 30:12

One of the things I love about my employer is we say people make the difference, and I 100% believe that you can have a wonderful idea that is poorly executed. It will be a complete failure if you don't have the right buy-in. You can have a project that seems extremely difficult and the probability of success may seem low in it are very motivated and really believe in what they're doing and think it's right. It is surprising how easily it can be done. So I think that everyone needs to agree on what we're trying to do, what we need, and then consider different options, find out how each of those options stack up against what you needed and then let the chips fall where they may.

Josh Simon, JAS: 31:03

The last bit of advice I would give in a relationship with a company like CreditSafe is just that you get out of it what you put into it. So CreditSafe is good. It's not perfect I don't know who is perfect. So when we do have issues or problems, we're not reticent about raising our concerns with them, and what we're really looking for is continuous improvement. To say, here is an area where we wish you were stronger, such as we discussed. Perhaps there are certain markets where the information is not as good. So, hey, credit safe. We're going to be doing more business in this region or country. Can you make that a priority, to figure out how to get more information? So I think, as long as there's continuous improvement and the lines of communication are good, I think that can bode well for success.

Tony Hines, Chain Reaction: 31:54

Well, I think that's great advice, Josh. I think that's just the sort of thing that people want to hear, in the sense that what they can do and how they can put it into action. And I think having the team around and making sure that everybody's on board and aligned with the strategy that you've got is really important. But also this idea of continuous improvement, the Kaizen as we talk about in supply chains.

Tony Hines, Chain Reaction: 32:17

That's the way to go. So that's great. That's the way to go, so that's great. That's been absolutely fantastic, I think. I think you've given us lots of food for thought, to think about, and I really do appreciate you coming along today to talk to us on Chain Reaction, about jazz and about your role as jazz, and I think exciting times ahead. We don't want them too exciting, but there are exciting times ahead.

Josh Simon, JAS: 32:39

Yes, yes, thank you so much, tony, it's been my pleasure.

Tony Hines, Chain Reaction: 32:43

Thank you, josh, thanks, thanks very much indeed. Okay, all right, bye, bye, josh. Well, that really was a very informative conversation with Josh Simon, the Global Risk and Receivables Director and PMO, as we found out at Jazz Worldwide. So thank you once again to Josh for his experience and his insight and some of the great comments in the conversation. Hope you enjoyed the episode.

Tony Hines, Chain Reaction: 33:15

Of course, in the complex world of global freight, managing credit risk is a critical aspect and it can significantly impact a company's bottom line. Avoiding those potential losses and highlighting them in the first place and teasing those out before they happen is what it's all about, and the data-driven approach, as we've heard, is very important because we can understand what's happening in these complex and ambiguous global markets. I suppose the key takeaways are that managing credit risk effectively is critical for the success of freight forwarding companies and by leveraging advanced analytics and having a dedicated team in place because it's all about people, as we heard from Josh, companies like JAS worldwide are able to manage that credit risk effectively and ensure financial stability, and they have a great partner with CreditSafe. Well, that really was a very informative discussion with Josh Simon, who's the Global Director for Risk and Receivables at JAS Worldwide, based in Atlanta. So a big shout-out to Josh, big thanks for coming along and talking to the Genre Action podcast today and sharing those thoughts with us, and a big thank you too, to Emily, Shefali and Raghana, who also worked hard in the background to help get this episode on the road.

Tony Hines, Chain Reaction: 35:04

Don't forget to pick up any episodes that you've missed of the Chain Reaction Podcast. We've had plenty of interesting episodes. There are something like 250 episodes for you to pick up right now, and I'd suggest you do that. Stop by, have a listen and pick up any you like to look at, and, of course, don't forget to subscribe to the Chain Reaction Podcast. You, you do that. Stop by, have a listen and pick up any you like the look of, and, of course, don't forget to subscribe to the chain reaction podcast. You can do that on your favorite platform and there's various ways you can do that, and you'll see them in the notes and on the blog and on the chain reaction site itself. So that's it for this episode. I'll be back with another episode soon, but for now I'm tony hines, I'm signing off and I'll see you next time in the chain reaction podcast. Bye for now, thank you.