Moritz Frobenius: The curious engineer specialising in advanced simulations and getting stuff done in the real world too.

Moritz is Head of Advanced Simulation Technologies at AVL Germany, leading AVLs Advanced Simulation Technologies Business for the German Market.

Together with his team, he's responsible for winning customers for AVLs simulation solutions and helping them get the most out of them.

In our conversation we talk about him growing up in a small village in Bavaria before moving to Munich and how his eyes were further opened and his appetite for travel whetted by a chance trip to Asia.

Moritz shares some of the benefits he's derived from high quality management training programmes including how learning about ourselves helps us to become better leaders and how important it is that we are able to grow in our roles, step away from our core competence and embrace new tasks like leadership or sales responsibility.

I enjoyed getting to know Moritz through this conversation and I'm pleased to be able to share his story with you in this episode. As always, I look forward to hearing what resonates with you.

If you're listening for the first time, hello, I'm Andy Follows. I help business owners and executives to enable Fulfilling Performance for themselves and those they lead and care about. If you'd like to know more about Fulfilling Performance, check out: Release the handbrake! - The Fulfilling Performance Hub on Substack. In it you will find easily digestible ideas on how to increase levels of performance and fulfilment for yourself and those you lead and care about.

Connect with Moritz
LinkedIn: Moritz Frobenius

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LinkedIn: Andy Follows

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Episode recorded on 23 May, 2024.

Transcript

Moritz Frobenius: 0:00

I am a very impatient person. I mean, I tell the story of the India toilet thing. I cannot wait for things to happen. And I learned that not everybody has the same feeling of speed that I am. For me it's always too slow and other people have a different speed and I have to accept it.

Aquilae: 0:19

Welcome to CAREER-VIEW MIRROR, the automotive podcast that goes behind the scenes with key players in the industry looking back over their careers to share insights to help you with your own journey. Here's your host, Andy follows

Andy Follows: 0:51

Hello, listeners, Andy here. Thank you for tuning in. We appreciate that you do. We're also very grateful for our guests who generously joined me to create these episodes so that we can celebrate their careers, listen to their stories, and learn from their experiences. In this episode, we're celebrating the careerto date of Moritz Frobenius. Moritz is head of advanced simulation technologies at AVL Germany leading AVLs advanced simulation technologies business for the German market. Together with his team, he's responsible for winning customers for AVL simulation solutions, and helping them get the most out of them. In our conversation. We talk about him growing up in a small village in Bavaria before moving to Munich and how his eyes were further opened, and his appetite for travel wetted by a chance trip to Asia. Moritz shares some of the benefits he's derived from high quality management training programmes, including how learning about ourselves helps us become better leaders, and how important it is that we're able to grow in our roles, step away from our core competence, and embrace new tasks like leadership or sales responsibility. I enjoyed getting to know Morris through this conversation, and I'm pleased to be able to share his story with you in this episode. As always, I look forward to hearing what resonates with you. If you're listening for the first time. Hello, I'm Andy follows I help business owners and executives to enable Fulfilling Performance for themselves and those they lead and care about. If you'd like to know more about Fulfilling Performance, you can sign up for our weekly newsletter. In it you'll find easily digestible ideas on how to increase levels of performance and fulfilment for yourself, and those you lead and care about. Go to Andyfollows.substack.com, or use the link in the show notes to this episode. If you listen to podcasts like Career-view Mirror, I'm guessing that you recognise you can learn from other people. When I'm not recording these conversations with inspiring individuals, you'll find me facilitating what we call guided peer mentoring teams in our Aquilae Academy. We bring together small groups of business owners and senior leaders from non competing organisations and create a virtual environment in which they can get to know and trust each other and share and support each other with their current challenges. If that sounds interesting, email academy@aquilae.co.uk. and we'll send you more details. You'll find that address in the show notes to this episode. Hello, Moritz and welcome. And where are you coming to us from today?

Moritz Frobenius: 3:16

Hello, I'm coming from Munich.

Andy Follows: 3:18

Thank you very much for joining me. And as I do with all my guests Moritz I'd like to ask you, first of all, where did your journey start? Where were you born?

Moritz Frobenius: 3:26

I was born in Salzburg, Austria, but I grew up just across the border in South Eastern Bavaria.

Andy Follows: 3:35

So do you consider yourself Austrian or Bavarian or?

Moritz Frobenius: 3:39

Yeah, I consider myself I'm a German citizen. There were times in my life, I prefer to consider myself as an Austrian, especially when Germany lost against Austria in football. But these were very rare times in my life.

Andy Follows: 3:54

So tell me please a little bit about your circumstances then when you were born, the family you were born into and the reason for moving just share a little?

Moritz Frobenius: 4:03

Yeah, actually, my sister is seven years older, younger than I am. So I grew up nearly like an only child. My parents both worked and worked a lot. So I had a lot of time for myself, and a lot of freedom. And I think this is something that I like to have. I see it positive having time for myself, and I love freedom.

Andy Follows: 4:28

Yeah. So you're comfortable with your own company, and value that. And what did you say your parents were working a lot, what were they doing?

Moritz Frobenius: 4:37

My father was a lawyer. And my mother was or still is a tax consultant.

Andy Follows: 4:44

Right. And when you were at school, then tell us a little about that Moritz. How would your teachers describe you? How did they describe you?

Moritz Frobenius: 4:52

Phew, that's a difficult question. How did they describe me so I was not very much interested in school. In the primary school, it was more or less boring. And higher school gymnasium in Germany. I was lazy and I had many other interests. I did a lot of sports to do tennis and stuff. I grew up in a very small village. I liked nature being outside, in the mountains, I learned sailing quite early on small boats on the lakes in Bavaria. And school was just necessary evil in that life. And I think my teachers would have described me more or less like, if it's one word, they would probably describe me as lazy.

Andy Follows: 5:42

You were active, you were busy, you may be just weren't as engaged by the topics at school as some other topics that you prefer to put your energy into. You weren't sitting around doing nothing.

Moritz Frobenius: 5:54

That's true. Yeah. Something I learned in school is something about efficiency. So I learned that, for me, it takes and consumes a lot of energy to learn languages. I was, for whatever reason, started with Latin and help old Greece language in school, which was horrible for me. I did. So it was really hard time for me. But I learned that in mathematics, or physics, it's just easy. I didn't have to do a lot to have good marks.

Andy Follows: 6:26

Okay

Moritz Frobenius: 6:27

Finally I finished my school. And at that time, it was clear I do something with mathematics and physics, because that was something I learned very fast and easily and, and I choose to study mechanical engineering. And I choose this without actually understanding or knowing what an engineer actually does. It was just a decision. Okay, mathematics is easy. Physics is straightforward. I want to do something that is connected to these topics,

Andy Follows: 6:57

Right. What expectations did your parents have on you as a child? Did they let you choose what you wanted to do. How involved were they in your decision making?

Moritz Frobenius: 7:09

Yeah, I think they let me choose. They let me go my way. I think at some point, they were also disappointed that I do not follow their way. But they did not clearly articulate that. Yeah, they let me go.

Andy Follows: 7:25

Okay, so what was it like then when you left school? Did you have to leave home to study or were you studying locally,

Moritz Frobenius: 7:33

The closest city where you could study engineering was in Munich. And for me, that was a big step. So I came from a very small villages, 400 people, 400 cows, or something like that. A farming village actually, where my parents had a nice house. And I came to the big city, Munich looking back. This is ridiculous. Because Munich, if you see New York, or Tokyo, Munich is just a larger village. But at that time, it was really big and a big step for me.

Andy Follows: 8:06

And how did you cope with that? How did you find

Moritz Frobenius: 8:09

I found it interesting. It was fascinating it? a new world. I was curious, curious to see other people to see how life in a city is, and studying was 50%, studying and focusing on the topics and lesson but 50% was having fun meeting new people and having a student's life.

Andy Follows: 8:32

So whilst you enjoyed your own company, you were still quite comfortable making friends and having fun with other people.

Moritz Frobenius: 8:39

Yeah, I learned that in school or in sports. And even more when I was in Munich and started studying.

Andy Follows: 8:47

And at what sort of point did you start to identify direction that you might go in where you might take your studies,

Moritz Frobenius: 8:56

I started mechanical engineering, knowing that it is a very tough subject. So 50% of the students that start mechanical engineering, at least in Munich fail, and do not finish as an engineer, or even more than 50%. And at that time, I did not have an idea what I will do as an engineer. My goal was to become an engineer at that time. And I did, actually, when I passed the last exam, the others that passed, celebrated and were happy and I was actually thinking about what I actually want to do in life. It did not feel, you know, happy because I passed but I, I was confronted with a situation that I didn't even think before. What's next? And then I thought about what I really wanted to do in life. And that was interesting, because due to some coincidence, I had the chance to travel to Hong Kong and Singapore for two weeks. And that was really eye opening for me. I remember landing in Hong Kong, the old airport where you actually fly so close to the buildings that you had the feeling the wing touches the laundry of the people on the balcony. It was really amazing. And a crowded city, the markets, the life there, I came from what was a big city for me, Munich to Hong Kong, and Singapore and realised, wow, that's amazing. There is so much going on. It's a different world. And I realised there is so much to see on this planet, which I wasn't even aware of. I mean, I was aware of that there existed Hong Kong or Singapore or Asia, but it was not relevant until now. And then I came there and started to become relevant. And I got a different view on Munich, on Germany. And also on my perspective of me being on that planet.

Andy Follows: 11:01

So what did this mean to you at that age? Then? How did this affect your thoughts on what you're going to do next?

Moritz Frobenius: 11:09

Yeah, one thing was in Singapore, I met a girl from New Zealand. Her parents lived in London. I don't know, I just came to talking to her. And she said, Yeah, Singapore is nice, but go to Indonesia is even cooler, and they dance on the beach. And so she taught me a little bit about it. And I came back from this two week, Asia trip, and it was clear, I have to go back to Asia. And so I organised my studying for the main diploma, which is usually six semesters, three years, so that within 12 months, I had three months, maybe four months for travelling. And still I use the rest of the time for working, getting money for being able to travel, and studying to pass my exams and learn something. And that's what I actually did in the next three years. I always had a three months or more or less three months time for going abroad.

Andy Follows: 12:07

Did you go to Indonesia and dance on a beach?

Moritz Frobenius: 12:09

That was the first thing I did Yeah. And the first thing in Asia was going to Indonesia, actually, the dancing on the beach was not the thing that I enjoyed most it was more nature and the people that are totally different. View they have on life, how easy they see many things that we, especially as a German see so strict and yeah, I laughed a lot in this country. There's a lot of fun and very much positive energy, even in places and circumstances where you wouldn't expect it. One of my last days of my first trip to Indonesia, I met a couple from Scotland actually, that was also funny to meet other Europeans or Westerners having a totally different life than I had because this was a couple of maybe they were 50 years old. So about my age now. And they rented their house for a year. And with the money they travelled for a year. And at that time, where I come from, with the background of my parents and my background, that was totally new for me. I never would have had this idea for myself and I loved it and they give gave me because they travelled on they gave me a book as a gift because I read it and in between travellers, you just exchanged books because you don't want to carry them. And you're happy to get new ones. And it was Salman Rushdie's Midnight's Children, maybe one of his greatest novels. And it's really influenced me because it tells the story of India from its independence until the day the book was written about 2000 or something like that. And that was clear when I read that book, I have to go to India next so next big journey was going to India. And one thing was, the couple from Scotland said, if you haven't seen India, you haven't seen the world. So that was the next thing going to India. And I had another trip to Indonesia. But that was my three years studying and becoming an engineer and travelling

Andy Follows: 14:19

in those three years. Where did you apart from India, where in Asia? Did you go? Obviously Indonesia, where else did you visit?

Moritz Frobenius: 14:25

Yeah, what's an Indonesia Malaysia, Singapore and in India, in some parts of India, I mean, India is as big as Europe. So you cannot travel India, you can only cover parts. But I covered a bit of North a bit of South.

Andy Follows: 14:39

What I'm loving about this story is I had already this impression of you as a young boy just finishing high school and travelling to Munich, and being somewhat in awe of Munich. And how wonderful that you should then by coincidence, you said you had the opportunity to go to Singapore and And then this sparked a whole chain of events and also the chances the meetings are different people, the Scottish couple, the Salman Rushdie book, the things that could have happened or didn't or could have not happened, but they did happen. And as a result, they altered the direction of your travel through those years.

Moritz Frobenius: 15:17

Absolutely.

Andy Follows: 15:18

Wonderful. And what happened once you finished studying?

Moritz Frobenius: 15:22

Yeah, at the end of my studies, I was one of the few students that have been abroad, but never worked. Or how do you say an intern abroad. So all my colleagues had their intern in the US or in the UK or somewhere, I was only travelling. So I was looking for a possibility to go abroad and do something there not only for travelling and holiday, but to something and I had a chance to do a project for my diploma thesis at the Indian Institute of Technology in Delhi. Now Delhi is the last place people want to go because it's big and 30 and crowded. But I said, okay, cool. That's what I'm going to do, because it was a chance to go back to India for my diploma work. And that was interesting, because I learned that it's, of course, different, if you are travelling there, or are working there, because I had to get something working. It was a project it should be successful. I mean, as a tourist, actually, it doesn't matter whether the bus comes or it comes later or it does not come at all. If the project it was a solar driven fridge that has been developed and was actually to be tested and get working and improved there. Yeah, I had a task to do. In the circumstances, that was interesting. I had to learn to solve problems, even if others did not really support that idea or care whether it worked or not. And that was interesting. For me,

Andy Follows: 16:59

it also sounds like you had quite a strong sense of responsibility. Even this was your first job. If you like,

Moritz Frobenius: 17:07

I don't know if responsibility is the right word. I'm a person if I want to get something going, I get it going. In India, it started with a broken toilet. I got a small apartment in the students hostel there at campus, which is very privileged, not everybody gets it. But as a foreign student, I was kind of privileged there. And as I'm moved in, I discovered that the toilet had been broken. So the guy that lived before that in the apartment had a farewell party and for some reason, on his last day, the whole toilet was teared out of the ground and broken somehow by accident, whatever. And they had a party and so can happen. Yeah, but somebody told me, there is some caretaker service on the campus so the campus is really huge. And I went to the caretaker service and told them the story and nothing happened. So I came back to the caretaker service, I talked to the guy who seemed to be the boss, the head of caretaking. And he was like the typical Indian like, yeah, sorry, we cannot do anything or takes two weeks or something like that. And I saw a 15 or 20 Guys just standing around doing nothing. And I saw that they had everything they needed for the apartment, in big shelves behind. So there were a new toilets available. And there were 15 guys doing nothing. But they weren't willing to do anything. They showed no sign of wanting to help. And so I kind of freaked out. And so I had a supervisor, I told my supervisor, my problem was the toilet. He was a PhD student of the institute, I did this project. And he said to that always take some time, it's India, so you cannot expect things to going fast. Just keep calm. And I insisted. And finally he said, Yeah, I can call the Dean of Students, which is one of the professors who is caring about the students. At that time, I just called this professor and told him a story. And he said, I will take care and less than 30 minutes later, two guys came from the caretaking department with a new toilet and repaired it. One hour later, I had a new toilet and it worked. And my supervisor I told him the next day and he said he looked at me with big eyes and said you did a miracle. He couldn't believe that. That I got things going was in an hour

Andy Follows: 19:51

Right by just not being prepared to take no for an answer or wait for two weeks. So that was during your First like internship in Delhi, a refrigerator that ran off solar. So how did that go? How did that project go?

Moritz Frobenius: 20:09

Actually it did not go good. So the machine has already been constructed in a different teams and an external company before over several years, and five or six prototypes have been sent all over the world in different places. And there was one project in the Himalaya in Nepal, going very well. But the Delhi and the Brazilian project, I think, when not very good, so the machine already stood there for a year outside. And due to the rain and smog, it was corroded, and did not work very well. And the problem is also that the radiation in Delhi is not very big. Also, in some, it's very hot, due to the smog, you do not get so much radiation in the Himalaya, they had perfect conditions. In Delhi, it was not good. So everything did not work very well. My job was to analyse this and report it and make suggestions on how to improve. But actually, it did not run very good.

Andy Follows: 21:14

But you could still do a good job of doing the analysing and make suggestions without necessarily being able to overcome the external factors.

Moritz Frobenius: 21:23

I did my best and the professor was fair to rate what I did and not the outcome.

Andy Follows: 21:29

yeah. And would you have gone to India? Do you think if was at your previous travel, that meant that the idea of going to Delhi to do this was appealing to you?

Moritz Frobenius: 21:39

Yes. Absolutely.

Andy Follows: 21:41

Did you come back from India? Then back to Munich?

Moritz Frobenius: 21:43

Yeah. I got my diploma in engineering in Munich. And yeah, it was very similar to my pre diploma. Actually, when I got my diploma, I started thinking about what to do next, and not before, and I had several ideas. One was also going back travelling, but on the other hand, I wanted to learn more and get a job. And I had the offer to start as a scientific assistant at one of the institute's of the Technical University of Munich, for fluid mechanics, I worked at that institute before that was one of one of my interns or student jobs to get money in the wind tunnel, I worked. And I liked fluid mechanics. And I wanted to learn more about fluids. And also during my daily time, my professor and I we always said, Okay, we should simulate that. But at that time, I wasn't able to do so. And I didn't know how to do I didn't know what possibilities existed. So I wanted to learn more about fluids. And I wanted to learn more about simulation. And that's what I actually did at that time

Andy Follows: 22:48

Wow. So pretty early in your journey, this idea of simulation comes up.

Moritz Frobenius: 22:54

Yeah, actually, compared to other students that already do simulation during their studying, it was pretty late.

Andy Follows: 23:01

Okay

Moritz Frobenius: 23:01

it was at the end of my studies and not at the beginning. And if I employ a student now, which has no experience and wants to do simulation here, he has not good chances that I take him, I was lucky. And they they took me also I had no experience. And it was a perfect environment for me, because on the one hand, I really was forced to do projects to deliver results. And there was pressure on it also in engineering project and research project. On the other hand, I had the chance to learn a lot and a lot of freedom also to try things out and to learn by failing.

Andy Follows: 23:39

So where did that lead then Moritz?

Moritz Frobenius: 23:41

Actually it led to more than five years at the Institute for fluid mechanics and to my PhD, I learned a lot about fluids about simulation about CFD about coding, about physical models. And I spent a really good time there at the institute because it was a lot of work. And I became really ambitious in improving and learning and getting things done. And on the other hand, it was a cool team. When I started there were four or five people starting at the same time. And we were a good team, we helped each other we learned a lot from each other. We had different topics of research. And we had a lot of fun also. So it was both very ambitious but also very positive

Andy Follows: 24:26

You paint a picture of a very happy time, a hard working time. And I'm thinking a fulfilling time for

Moritz Frobenius: 24:34

Yeah, maybe looking back in thinking about you. former times you you keep the positive things more in your brain than the negative ones. Maybe it was also at that time, a lot of work and stress and, and fun. But looking back from my perspective, now it was I remember the funny part and the progress we made.

Andy Follows: 24:59

Yeah. And because you're still in the same field, those were valuable years that you've been able to leverage.

Moritz Frobenius: 25:06

Yeah, they were valuable in different aspects. One was the team aspect working as a team. I mean, I told you at the beginning, I grew up more or less like an only child in the first year. So I had to learn working in a team. And I learned there. And I learned to recognise the importance and the value of a team. And what I also learned was the leading style of the professor that we had, because he was, on the one hand, very strict and very demanding, and everything in everything we did. And the results we produced, he was very strict and was able to generate a lot of pressure. Also, deadlines or something like that. We kept our deadlines always and if it meant working the whole night. On the other hand, he gave us a lot of freedom and supported us and we could learn and, and we had fun, it was not only pressure, it was both and in German, we would say[German] demanding and supporting would be maybe the English translate direct translation. And that is a good style. I think. At that time, I didn't really understand it. But looking back, I see like that this would really helping us a lot.

Andy Follows: 26:15

And do you think you've adopted some of that style yourself?

Moritz Frobenius: 26:18

I'm trying to

Andy Follows: 26:19

I wonder what the people you lead will say if they listen to this

Moritz Frobenius: 26:23

At least they know [German]

Andy Follows: 26:25

Is there more to say, on your time at the Technical University? Or is it time to move on to what happened after that,

Moritz Frobenius: 26:33

maybe one thing is important, because after five years, so I always had contract for a year or two years, or something like that, which is typical at the university, you do not get an unlimited contract, or five years in a row, that's not usual. After five years, my contract ended. And before that, I presented the actual status of my PhD thesis to my professor, which was very thin, I did not have so many results at that time. And he was very honest in his feedback, which was not positive at that time. He expected much more results, deeper analyses. And he had a long list. So I gave it to him. On Friday afternoon, something and on Monday, I got it back, and it was covered in red notes. So he took the weekend for my thesis, which shows me that he was interested in that. But we agreed it we made kind of a deal. So I got another contract for another six months, I had a long list of what he expected my thesis to have. And I had to write a proposal for a new research project, a funded project for my successor. So the guy that comes after me is funded on that was out for him. And for me, I was allowed to write a proposal for a conference in Japan. That was the deal. So coming back to the travel thing. And so I wrote the proposal for the project, I wrote the abstract for the conference, it was accepted. I generated a lot of results. And in autumn of that year, I travelled to Osaka for conference and spent two weeks in Japan because I could add another week. And that was also cool because I learned, again, a complete new culture and complete new country and was fascinating because the culture shock that I had when I came to India first or each time, I got the same culture shock in Tokyo when I arrived or in Osaka. Also, it looks like Europe, the buildings, the trains, it's very similar, but it's still totally different. And that was fascinating. At the time, which is also information relevant for my life. I married. We married that summer, and she joined me to Japan. So she was also bitten by the travel bug and started to like travelling in Asia

Andy Follows: 28:53

It's clear it was a huge motivator for you. So going back to Japan, and the culture shock that you had there, what were some of the things that stood out for you when you went to Japan?

Moritz Frobenius: 29:07

there a lot of interactions nonverbal, with which for me as a stranger was interesting, too. I didn't always understand what's really happening. It was just fascinating. And I was also not prepared. I went there without any I did not have a training or something on that. I just went there and watched it. And so okay, that's totally different as it is in Germany, and I liked that.

Andy Follows: 29:43

I can imagine. I wanted to ask you, was it ever an issue for you just having short contracts one or two years?

Moritz Frobenius: 29:49

I think the relationship that I had at the institute was the professor and the trust that we had in that organisation cost that did not was not an issue. So it was clear that it is a one year project because there is a one year funded project. And from this funding, I'm paid. And so it was a one year contract. And it was clear that everyone works for getting the new funding. Yeah. So I cannot remember that. I really worried

Andy Follows: 30:20

No, that was the nature of it.

Moritz Frobenius: 30:21

And I always had a good alternative in case they would have kicked me out, I would have grabbed my backpack and went to Asia. Okay.

Andy Follows: 30:31

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Moritz Frobenius: 32:34

Yeah, I finished. I think Japan was October and until December, I finished my thesis. And the professor had it on his desk before Christmas. And after Christmas, I got it back with not so much red notes on it. And I finished it and I became a doctor of engineering finally. And the decision I had to drive there is what to do next. And during the final half year of my thesis, I learned a lot. Actually, I learned most of it about the topic of my thesis, it's about cavitation and fluids or a simulation of cavitation. And I was really considering going even deeper and doing further research. On the other hand, it was clear it would be good to go into industry and do something and apply what you learn and learn how how the real life outside the universities working so I I wasn't sure. And I also talked with my professor a lot about it. And he said it would be good get get out into industry learn something. And if you really think academia is the way you can come back, staying at the university without knowing the industry life is not a good idea. And he he was right. And I did.

Andy Follows: 33:47

The only way you find out is by trying go and experience industry for a while and come back if you'd prefer. So what was your first industrial opportunity? Then?

Moritz Frobenius: 33:59

Actually, I had two choices at the time one was in Hamburg, in the simulation area in a company and one was in Munich. And my wife at the time was pregnant. And she said I won't go to Hamburg I do not move with and sit in Hamburg where we know nobody was a little child. I want to keep my job. And no way, that was pretty clear. And at that time I accepted that and I choose the Munich opportunity. I went to AVL as a calculation simulation engineer in the engineering department, a very small team.

Andy Follows: 34:36

Can you remember how the opportunity arose?

Moritz Frobenius: 34:38

Actually I started with Google. So I googled and saw a job opportunities and wrote a few applications already during my finishing of my thesis and these two opportunities arose. So I was invited. I had a good talk with the manager at that time. I actually we met had a good talk. And and he clearly indicated already, within the first hour that they want to give me that contract.

Andy Follows: 35:05

Wow, what was that based on?

Moritz Frobenius: 35:07

Actually I think they needed someone who is experienced, they didn't want to have a beginner. And they needed someone who is familiar with research projects. Because AVL at that time started a research project, a government funded research project was partners. And they actually had no clue about handling this, because they were used to work with automotive companies, but not with the government. And I was familiar with the technology. And I was familiar with doing research project.

Andy Follows: 35:40

And so it was a good fit.

Moritz Frobenius: 35:41

Maybe that was the main reason

Andy Follows: 35:43

you were a good fit, you had experience they didn't have

Moritz Frobenius: 35:46

Yeah, at that time. AVL was a very small company in Germany, globally, also much smaller than today. But I think it was 100 people or something working in Germany for the company. And everything was, was growing. And we started this and that and new ideas popped up. So it was a growing company. And it was from the spirit here. Yeah, very ambitious, very sales and growth oriented company. Right. And for me, it was a new world because at the Institute, we did simulation, that was our topic, there was only simulation simulation simulation, or 90%. At AVL simulation was a little part it was not important. It was about we do engineering, we do testing. And yes, we have some crazy guys that do simulation, and I had to learn to cope with that new role of my subject.

Andy Follows: 36:37

It's interesting you in an organisation that was has grown significantly. So how has that affected your career path?

Moritz Frobenius: 36:45

First, I had to learn a lot. I came as a PhD, a doctor of engineering and experience simulation, but still I I had to learn a lot because industry simulation is something else than in academia. And I only did computational fluid dynamics. And in AVL, we did so much more. And I focused on turbo machinery and they develop engines and powertrain components. So I had to the possibility to learn a lot in in each direction. And the company crew, our simulation area did not go very well at that time. And after two years or so everything was reorganised rearranged. And the team I was belonging was moved from engineering to a department called advanced simulation technologies. And I was offered the chance to become a team leader there after two years, not because I was the perfect leader, but because I was the most experienced one. I think it was more like, okay, he's the oldest one, make him the team leader. Otherwise, he just makes issues, you know, or trouble? I assume? I don't know.

Andy Follows: 37:55

We will never know. We will never know. Yeah. And how was that transition into your first leadership role?

Moritz Frobenius: 38:02

I think it's challenging, always challenging. It's a totally different world, being the manager and not the employee. Yeah, I learned a lot. And I had the chance to have some good coaches and trainers also, what they managed was to focus my curiosity that I always have, from getting simulation forward, learning new things on the technology side to learning to lead learning to work with people learning to manage people, like a new science topic for me. And that was really interesting. I learned a lot about myself especially not about how to lead but also about how I am doing, what kind of persons I am what's important for me and how I communicate and how I maybe should communicate to be more successful.

Andy Follows: 38:52

I want to come back to that Moritz. I just want to not let it go unsaid how very interesting it is. This idea of they were able to position the idea of leadership in such a way that it captured your imagination. So we've seen through your story that when you're interested in something, you could do it, you had the motivation once it captured your imagination, to be able to present things to people in a way that you realise this is going to capture their imagination. They get excited about this, they'll see the value in this if I present it to them. This way you haven't actually changed what they're doing. You've just enabled them to see it. That's really cool.

Moritz Frobenius: 39:33

I think that the ignition was we have this management development programme in the company, which is done by a consult external consulting firm and this programme is really good. It was done by extremely good trainers, and they focus very much on communication. And it's good to learn about yourself and it still is fun and it's also an international programme. So we were 12 or 14 upcoming managers from all over the world, and part of the programme is happening in [name] at the headquarter and a part is abroad at location of one of the participants. And our team suggested Japan as the city for one of the workshops, and it was economic crisis at that time. But somehow we made a business case. And we could argue that it's the cheapest way for the company if we all go to Japan. And we did. And so it was both it was good for learning. It was good for learning about myself. And it was cool working with this extra ordinary people,

Andy Follows: 40:39

what are some of the things that you learned about yourself, which, you know, have been really valuable?

Moritz Frobenius: 40:45

Two things, maybe I am a very impatient person. I mean, I tell the story of the India toilet thing, I cannot wait for things to happen. And I learned that not everybody has the same feeling of speed that I am. For me, it's always too slow. And other people have a different speed and I have to accept it. And I learned that it's good, if I realise, are we at the same speed or have do we have to adjust otherwise, friction is generated. And then you have to do something to come to the same speed. Either I have to slow down or the other one has to accelerate. But somehow we have to do something. And I wasn't fully aware that I was just feeling you know, this like stuck in a traffic jam, why are you so slow, I was only feeling it. But this programme enabled me to get it on a rational level, and learn about myself. And one thing was about trust, I think that was the most important thing that everything you do successfully depends also on trust. And even on a business to business relation, trust is very important. It's in the organisation in the team, but also in in a customer interaction without trust, you will not achieve much. This is something i i learned

Andy Follows: 42:06

Super examples. Thank you very much Moritz

Moritz Frobenius: 42:10

Oh I have a third one. That was really cool story also which links to my Asian things in the group, it was about communication and listening. We had one Japanese guy in the group, and we had some communication practice. And he said, listening is not only listening with the ear, and the Japanese colleague painted the old Japanese sign for listening, which consists of four different signs. It's the ear, it's the eye, it's the king and the heart in Japanese signs. That was something I really remember it says everything about listening, listening is always about looking at the other person seeing it. The hard thing is about emotional connection you need for really listening and understanding. And the king sign is for respect. Good communication always has to do is respect for each other, not only the ear. And this is also something I remember from that

Andy Follows: 43:09

amazing, there's so much that we all have to learn. And the realisation that we don't all think the same. My sense of urgency might not be the same as your sense of urgency or speed. And there comes a point, hopefully, early enough that we realise this, that not everybody sees the world as we do. And it's so crucial. Absolutely. So that was your first leadership position. And you had some really good training that helped you to learn about yourself.

Moritz Frobenius: 43:44

There was a further step in learning at that time, I led a purely technical team. So I led a bunch of simulation engineers. But about at that time, our head of simulation left the company and I was asked to lead the whole area of advanced simulation technology, not only the simulation team, which sounds big, but was only a few people more, I think three people more which were responsible for sales. So I started to be responsible for the business not only for the technology, but also for the business and especially for sales. And before that my impression of salespeople was ok the the guys in sales are the engineers that are not good enough to technology. I can say that today because today I am selling software. So

Andy Follows: 44:40

You now have the title do you

Moritz Frobenius: 44:42

That was a new learning step in my life, how important proper sales is and how that also, sales is a technology or a science and art actually, where we can learn a lot and you can do it really good or not so good like in engineering project, or in repairing a car, it's something you can learn, you can improve, and you can do really good, which is also a new world. For me. When I was leading the simulation, that technology team, I was also doing sales support. So I was helping the sales, selling our services and our product. But we were not really successful. Because I always had the technology point of view, I said, our solution is better than the other. And I was disappointed because we still didn't sell successfully. And after my management development programme, where I learned a lot about communication and listening, I started to understand much better also the situation of a customer. And to understand that a better solution does not necessarily mean it's a solution you choose. I mean, if you want to go out for a pizza, and the waiter comes out, we have a nice fillet of beef, and you want to have a pizza, you order the pizza, and he will never sell his beef.

Andy Follows: 46:07

That's a great analogy.

Moritz Frobenius: 46:09

And there are many constraints and situations where the customers are where they have totally different criteria for what to choose which supplier to choose which software to work with. And I did not try to do sales with my technology glasses on I tried to do it with my manager glasses on.

Andy Follows: 46:31

So you would recognise that there's a certain number of steps in the sales process. And that you would identify that when we're with the customer. Before we offer him the fillet steak, let's find out what he actually has come for.

Moritz Frobenius: 46:47

Exactly, yeah.

Andy Follows: 46:48

And let's talk to him about pizza if he wants to have pizza. Very interesting. First of all, you move away from the topic, when you start to lead people, you're no longer an individual contributor, you're no longer doing the work that you used to enjoy doing, you're now got the job of leading the team of people. And then the team grows and you've got sales responsibility. It's good, but you start to move away from where you started. How's that been for you? Has that always been fun and good growth for you or have you missed that the engineering part?

Moritz Frobenius: 47:22

Both actually, also, when I became a team leader of the small simulation team, I already gave the responsibility for the CFD for the computational fluid dynamics, my topic of my PhD thesis of my competence to a colleague of mine. And as a leader took more care about the other topics. And that was very difficult for me, because it was my core topic where I feel safe and secure and competent. But for the team, that was the best solution, because he is really an excellent engineer and an top expert. And in the other topics, we had difficulty, so I took care of the difficult parts, the challenging parts, the parts where we were not successful. And in some this was a good decision. Yes, it's hard for me to leave that, it becomes easier because the young people that I have now in my organisation are so much better in simulation in what they do than ever was, that makes it easy for me. It's not like, oh, I will do it better. I'm happy that they do it. And I don't have to do it.

Andy Follows: 48:35

That's another really wonderful example. It is hard to let go of the thing that we started doing and that we're good at our core competence, as you say. So congratulations on doing that. And a very transferable challenge for every single person stepping up into a leadership role is you have got a new job. Now the way you add value to the organisation has changed. You do it through leading the team not through doing what you used to do. So well done for recognising that and it's great to hear that the young team members are I'm going to use your words better than you could do it.

Moritz Frobenius: 49:13

Yeah, I mean, there's so much change in the technology. And yeah, simulation today is also very different from what it was 15 or 20 years ago.

Andy Follows: 49:23

So how has your role developed? What other lessons have you had to learn? What other responsibility have you had to take on how else have you had to grow as you've progressed through the business?

Moritz Frobenius: 49:36

the journey, there are some external things I had to do like speaking in front of large audiences at conferences, which I started at the university but kept on doing or keep on doing. And in the company becoming responsible for one of the three business unit also it's the smallest one also brings me into a management role via interact with the other business units on a company level and confronted with overall managing topics of medium sized company.

Andy Follows: 50:12

And how are you finding that? Is that been presented to you? Or have you been able to find the angle for that, that captures your imagination that makes you want to get good at it?

Moritz Frobenius: 50:24

You know, it's a different role, because then I am one of maybe 10, or 15 people in a management board of the company, including HR and central functions and other business units and being responsible for the smallest group. In this management board. I am contributing, I'm helping, I'm supporting, I'm not the leader there. And I also have to accept and I do accept that there are others that are much more experienced than I am, that have other capabilities where I can learn from. And so I try to bring in what I know what I can and learn what I can learn. Yeah, I see pretty neutral and open.

Andy Follows: 51:10

Yeah. So to the extent that you can, because it's obviously the role that you're in now, what are some of the things that work well, in the team that you're a member of? So rather than the team, you lead the team that you're a member of?

Moritz Frobenius: 51:25

Yeah, I mean, I think we have the same understanding of what we want to reach, what the goals are. And I think it's characterised by a great amount of respect for each other and what so they are each individual's, none of us is an easy, simple person, you know, but I think we're all aware of the value that everyone can contribute.

Andy Follows: 51:51

Sounds like a respectful environment.

Moritz Frobenius: 51:54

Yeah, I think it's very respectful. Yeah. And this is also valid in the team that I'm leading. So I think we have a very respectful, working together. And I think we are also aware of the people that really contribute a lot. And this is valued,

Andy Follows: 52:12

Do you tend to work virtually, or hybrid or together in an office.

Moritz Frobenius: 52:18

So my team now as it also contains a sales organisation is distributed over Germany. So 1/3 is somewhere in Germany, and two thirds are located in Munich, but only half of it is really in the office, most of them is in a home office or also travelling. So we have a lot of virtual meetings, and some hybrid meetings, and maybe once in three months meeting where we really meet in person.

Andy Follows: 52:46

And how is that working?

Moritz Frobenius: 52:49

Actually it's working good. I mean, it started March 2020. I think in Germany, the lockdown was on seventh or 10th of March. And we had the problem that we have all our computing power, at that time, local in our office, where our simulations run, or most of it, and within seven days, we got everything organised so everyone could work from home. And that was really cool. We all have helped together, IT supported. And we were able to do remote work. And I invented some scrum like habits like a dailies and some regular meetings. So we see each other and we still do it like that. Because since then, we we nearly doubled the size of the organisation, and we are distributed all over Germany. So we have to find them some meeting structure and culture so that we can collaborate.

Andy Follows: 53:48

The culture side, I'm fascinated by I'm very conscious of young people coming into our workplace and finding themselves actually with no workplace to come into, but they're just sitting at home. Do you have many people like that?

Moritz Frobenius: 54:02

Yeah. Yeah, I think more than 50% are coming from a culture where they're used to working remote and having their meetings as zoom or teams or whatever

Andy Follows: 54:13

Is there anything else? That is we're up to date in terms of this as the role you have. Now, would you like to say, as much as you're comfortable to say about what the business does and what you do? Because I did have a look at the website and I thought, Okay, this is going to be interesting, because this is very technical. I saw a picture of a BMW i8 simulated, I think driving through some snow and there was helping to identify how much snow would would accumulate under the wheel arches, or where on the vehicle. So that was about the level of depth I got to so what is it that business does or in your area? What do you do? Here's

Moritz Frobenius: 54:51

a funny thing is when I started dealing with simulation, it was more scientific, but when I came to industry five years later, or six years later, it was like, wow, now everything is simulated and simulation is booming. And in between, it was like, okay that everyone is doing it. So it's nothing special anymore. But what I learned in the past two or three years, is that actually now starts really changing everything because the automotive companies, of course, they do simulation, but they do simulation. And still they do testing, like these snow that you mentioned, these winter tests, they still carry trucks with a lot of cars to Scandinavia and drive on frozen lakes, or whatever they do, they do a lot of testing, which consumes a lot of money. And it's really ridiculous because I heard recently, they drove one of the German car manufacturers, they they went to Scandinavia for testing, and there was no snow, it was 25 degree in March or something like that. So winter testing is one of the topics where the industry did not change, they do not simulate that they test it and simulation is now starting, because the technology is now available. So five years ago, I would say okay, I'm now at the climax of simulation, then it becomes like normal or automated or AI comes and you don't need it anymore. But I think it's just the beginning. And it really starts now becoming interesting, because hardware tests will now be eliminated by simulation, or at least partly eliminated by simulation,

Andy Follows: 56:33

having been to the southern hemisphere proving grounds in New Zealand, where the manufacturers do some winter testing when I was working in that market, it's a lot of fun. Maybe that could be a contributing factor to why the manufacturers do it. I'm sure I'm sure it's not that. But

Moritz Frobenius: 56:53

Yeah I think also, they will not be completely eliminated. But it's very expensive. Bringing all those cars and experts and engineers to New Zealand, I mean, it's not around the corner, and then doing tests and imagine the test fails, you have to reconstruct something, you have a complete prototype vehicle, you have already 14 months of development in that. And then you say, Okay, we have to go back, we have to do this, this this again, and it takes another half year or a year. That's so costly. I mean, if you just do the test, and then you say, okay, it's fine, go to production, then it's good. But imagine it fails. And this is what simulation can contribute. It helps to develop products, where the final test is not failed.

Andy Follows: 57:42

So you have something as close as possible to right before you manufacture it. And it would fit with your, your urgency and your wanting to get things done. You don't want to wait nine months for someone to go and test something in the snow, if you can code a solution.

Moritz Frobenius: 58:00

But on the other hand, I would be curious, New Zealand is missing on my list of countries I visited, I really would go there, and I wouldn't bother if it's for winter testing.

Andy Follows: 58:10

Thank you for sharing your story Moritz. Is there anything that you wanted to share that I haven't asked you about? Where you think I've missed an opportunity?

Moritz Frobenius: 58:21

No I think I'm fine. Thank you very much. You you ask really good question. I tell you much more than I thought about before. That's really good. And I'm curious what I mean, you you found out during your question that I'm a curious person. And curiosity is a value for me as it is. And I'm curious what the future brings, I would like to be able to never stop learning, and always do something, learn something new.

Andy Follows: 58:51

That's a lovely way to end this conversation. What a wonderful state of mind to have as well to ensure that you sort of grow old, with lots of stimulation. So thank you Moritz, it's been a pleasure to hear your story. If people want to connect with you. We'll put your LinkedIn details in the show notes to this episode. And they can reach out and say hello, they'll probably be listening and they'll be so disappointed in my lack of understanding of the technology. And some of the questions I didn't ask they'll be thinking, why didn't you ask him about this? This would be really interesting. They can ask you those questions. If they get in touch with you.

Moritz Frobenius: 59:29

That's a good idea. Thank you

Andy Follows: 59:35

you've been listening to CAREER-VIEW MIRROR with me. Andy follows depending on your unique life experience where you find yourself right now and your personal goals you'll have your own takeaways from Moritz's story, some elements that stood out for me, were picturing him moving from a small village to Munich, and then to Asia, which unlocked a love of travel. His determination and ability to get things done whether that was managing his studies so that he could also travel or making sure that the toilet got fixed in two hours, not two weeks, him recognising and sharing the value of management training and the need to learn about ourselves to help us be better leaders. How important it is that we're able to grow in our roles and step away from our core competence and embrace new tasks like leadership or sales responsibility, the value in learning how to present topics to people in a way that will capture their imagination, and motivation. If you'd like to connect with Moritz, you'll find his contact details in the show notes to this episode. If you enjoy listening to my guest stories, please could you do me a favour and share an episode with someone you lead parent or mentor? Or perhaps a friend of yours who you think would also enjoy listening? Thank you to Moritz for joining me for our conversation. Thank you to our sponsors for this episode ASKE Consulting and Aquilae and thank you to the CAREER-VIEW MIRROR team, without whom we wouldn't be able to share our guests life and career stories. And above all, thank you to you for listening