#186 Electric Flight, Commercializing Hardware, Sustainable Aviation, Working at NASA, & More w/ Kevin Noertker (Ampaire)

Kevin Noertker is the Co-Founder and CEO of Ampaire, a developer of Hybrid Aviation Propulsion Systems to Decarbonize Air Travel Today.

Currently they are scaling up their tech. Their tech is proven to reduce fuel usage by about 50% for small aircrafts (anything with a propeller).

Today, Kevin shares his story and we discuss:

• Aerospace Engineer to Ampaire: His story of co-founding Ampaire. 
• Addressing Existing Stock: Electric aircraft is the future, but their solution helps address the existing stock of aircraft. 
• Bridging the Infrastructure Gap: How fully electric air travel will require massive infrastructure upgrades, so they are building a solution that will work in between.

Enjoy today's conversation!

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Topics:
**1:53 Intro and Background
**7:01 The Impact of NASA Experience
**14:20 The Third Revolution in Aviation
**17:09 Economic and Environmental Benefits
**28:19 Commercialization Process and Milestones
**38:39 Design Considerations for Hybrid Systems
**42:21 Infrastructure and Charging
**42:58 Recharging Electric Aircraft in the Air
**43:18 Adapting Infrastructure for Electric Aviation
**44:54 Takeaways

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Links:
**Kevin Noertker | Ampaire
**Follow CleanTechies on LinkedIn
**@Silas & @Somil_Agg on X 

Transcript

Kevin Noertker (00:00:00):
It's one thing to have an idea and a vision.

Kevin Noertker (00:00:02):
It's another to execute on those goals.

Kevin Noertker (00:00:05):
The idea is the easy part and the day in and day out execution is the hard part.

Kevin Noertker (00:00:08):
We're cutting 50% of the fuel burn.

Kevin Noertker (00:00:11):
50% reduction in fuel looks like 20 to 40% savings in your direct operating costs.

Kevin Noertker (00:00:19):
And if you're trying to have a monkey juggling on a pedestal, don't start by building the pedestal.

Kevin Noertker (00:00:23):
Why launch a roadster into space?

Kevin Noertker (00:00:26):
Somebody once challenged me on that.

Kevin Noertker (00:00:27):
They're like, don't you think it's wasteful?

Kevin Noertker (00:00:29):
I was like, inspiring a generation is hardly wasteful.

Silas Mähner (00:00:39):
the number one podcast for climate tech entrepreneurs.

Silas Mähner (00:00:42):
Today, I'm speaking with Kevin Nordkirk, CEO and co-founder of Ampere.

Silas Mähner (00:00:46):
Decarbonizing air travel is hard.

Silas Mähner (00:00:48):
The two major efforts are electric aircraft and sustainable aviation fuel.

Silas Mähner (00:00:52):
Well, there's another way of looking at it, the Prius way.

Silas Mähner (00:00:55):
Kevin and the team at Ampere realized the immediate solution to decarbonizing air

Silas Mähner (00:01:00):
travel requires a compromise,

Silas Mähner (00:01:02):
which is why they are building hybrid aviation propulsion systems.

Silas Mähner (00:01:06):
Kevin explains today how hybrid allows for the same cargo and weight capacity,

Silas Mähner (00:01:11):
whereas a lot of electric aircraft,

Silas Mähner (00:01:13):
you have to compromise on weight because of the batteries.

Silas Mähner (00:01:15):
He also explains how you don't need new infrastructure to run hybrid airplanes

Silas Mähner (00:01:20):
because they can refuel rather than having to have a specific place they can charge.

Silas Mähner (00:01:25):
And there's many runways which don't have any charging.

Silas Mähner (00:01:28):
They're kind of very remote places.

Silas Mähner (00:01:31):
He also explains how the design utilizes the efficiency of the electric part for

Silas Mähner (00:01:35):
takeoff and combustion for cruising,

Silas Mähner (00:01:37):
so kind of maximizing the efficiency of each.

Silas Mähner (00:01:40):
I really enjoy this conversation, and I'm sure you will too.

Silas Mähner (00:01:43):
Before we start the show, if you listen on Spotify or Apple, leave us a review.

Silas Mähner (00:01:47):
It's immensely helpful.

Silas Mähner (00:01:48):
And if you're listening on Substack, drop us a comment with your favorite moment.

Silas Mähner (00:01:51):
Okay, enjoy the episode.

Silas Mähner (00:01:53):
All right, welcome to the show, Kevin.

Silas Mähner (00:01:54):
How are you doing today?

Kevin Noertker (00:01:56):
Hey, doing really well.

Kevin Noertker (00:01:57):
Good to see you.

Silas Mähner (00:01:59):
Yeah, I'm super, super excited for this one.

Silas Mähner (00:02:01):
We had a bit of a back and forth before the show, and I know a few things.

Silas Mähner (00:02:05):
I know you've got a great view from where you're sitting.

Silas Mähner (00:02:08):
We won't ask you to turn the camera, but other people should probably try to come and visit you.

Silas Mähner (00:02:12):
But before we get too far into any particular things,

Silas Mähner (00:02:15):
give us a quick background on who you are and what you're doing today.

Kevin Noertker (00:02:19):
Sure.

Kevin Noertker (00:02:20):
So I'm Kevin Norker.

Kevin Noertker (00:02:21):
I'm co-founder and CEO of a company named Amp Air that is pioneering the future of aviation,

Kevin Noertker (00:02:28):
driving towards sustainable aviation,

Kevin Noertker (00:02:30):
so better for the environment and bringing advanced technologies into this industry.

Kevin Noertker (00:02:35):
You know,

Kevin Noertker (00:02:35):
my background,

Kevin Noertker (00:02:36):
I grew up in a really beautiful natural setting out in Utah,

Kevin Noertker (00:02:40):
fell in love with the world around us,

Kevin Noertker (00:02:42):
nature,

Kevin Noertker (00:02:43):
hiking,

Kevin Noertker (00:02:43):
biking,

Kevin Noertker (00:02:44):
rock climbing,

Kevin Noertker (00:02:44):
that kind of stuff,

Kevin Noertker (00:02:46):
and and ended up becoming an engineer.

Kevin Noertker (00:02:48):
And so my engineering background

Kevin Noertker (00:02:51):
Really rigorous,

Kevin Noertker (00:02:52):
technical,

Kevin Noertker (00:02:53):
very quickly realized that I wasn't going to be the Nobel Prize winning

Kevin Noertker (00:02:57):
astrophysicist out there.

Kevin Noertker (00:02:59):
But I found my spot while at Caltech in building teams and understanding the

Kevin Noertker (00:03:05):
broader context around achieving stuff.

Kevin Noertker (00:03:07):
And that really matured when I was doing my research over at NASA's Jet Propulsion

Kevin Noertker (00:03:11):
Laboratory there near Pasadena as well.

Kevin Noertker (00:03:15):
I've been in aerospace most of my career.

Kevin Noertker (00:03:18):
And so I started my career out at Northrop Grumman,

Kevin Noertker (00:03:21):
a big aerospace and defense company on advanced research and development and

Kevin Noertker (00:03:26):
stealth technology,

Kevin Noertker (00:03:27):
which was magical and really cool.

Kevin Noertker (00:03:30):
And then grew over into program management and systems engineering,

Kevin Noertker (00:03:34):
both on the aircraft and the space side of the house before co-founding Amp Air

Kevin Noertker (00:03:40):
back in 2016.

Silas Mähner (00:03:42):
This is, uh, I appreciate this succinct background.

Silas Mähner (00:03:44):
When did you, I guess, first really have the impulse to become an entrepreneur?

Silas Mähner (00:03:49):
Like what was your first hustle as I'm assuming you had something as a kid and

Silas Mähner (00:03:53):
everybody has something like what was it?

Kevin Noertker (00:03:56):
Yeah.

Kevin Noertker (00:03:56):
You know,

Kevin Noertker (00:03:57):
I think,

Kevin Noertker (00:03:58):
yeah,

Kevin Noertker (00:03:58):
I,

Kevin Noertker (00:03:59):
I always,

Kevin Noertker (00:04:00):
I always aspired or thought that I would be entrepreneurial and I'm sure that there were,

Kevin Noertker (00:04:03):
uh,

Kevin Noertker (00:04:04):
there were experiences that I had,

Kevin Noertker (00:04:06):
you know,

Kevin Noertker (00:04:06):
whether it was the lemonade stand as a kid or,

Kevin Noertker (00:04:09):
or washing cars and such.

Kevin Noertker (00:04:11):
Um,

Kevin Noertker (00:04:12):
And I know in college, I even had come up with this idea.

Kevin Noertker (00:04:16):
I'm really into where technology meets people and how it can enable us to become better,

Kevin Noertker (00:04:23):
become better connected,

Kevin Noertker (00:04:24):
to give us superpowers.

Kevin Noertker (00:04:26):
And one of the areas I was toying with these ideas around education technology.

Kevin Noertker (00:04:30):
How do we take these advanced and really,

Kevin Noertker (00:04:33):
really sometimes scary concepts like stoichiometry and then build tools and games

Kevin Noertker (00:04:39):
that make them more accessible?

Kevin Noertker (00:04:41):
So there were all these ideas that I was playing around with,

Kevin Noertker (00:04:44):
but ultimately it didn't ever start an official company around any of them until we

Kevin Noertker (00:04:50):
kicked off Amp Air.

Kevin Noertker (00:04:51):
So I was probably a late bloomer when it comes to the entrepreneurial action in the

Kevin Noertker (00:04:57):
actuality of starting it.

Silas Mähner (00:04:59):
Yeah, I mean, you definitely went for a big goal right away.

Silas Mähner (00:05:03):
Fair play, man.

Silas Mähner (00:05:04):
Well, this is cool.

Silas Mähner (00:05:08):
One thing I'm really curious about,

Silas Mähner (00:05:09):
you already brought it up a little bit,

Silas Mähner (00:05:10):
which is you spend a little bit of time with NASA.

Silas Mähner (00:05:13):
I'm kind of curious, they have a reputation for producing just top-notch folks in general.

Silas Mähner (00:05:19):
So I'm kind of curious,

Silas Mähner (00:05:20):
what was your experience there and why do you think that it tends to propel people,

Silas Mähner (00:05:24):
no pun intended,

Silas Mähner (00:05:25):
towards a more impactful career of sorts?

Kevin Noertker (00:05:30):
I think, at least in my generation, NASA was that entity which you looked toward and you saw astronauts.

Kevin Noertker (00:05:41):
It was looking to the stars, right?

Kevin Noertker (00:05:43):
It was the greatest extent of adventure, of advanced technology ever.

Kevin Noertker (00:05:50):
about the frontier of exploring the unknown, right?

Kevin Noertker (00:05:53):
There's this kind of romanticism,

Kevin Noertker (00:05:56):
this view of around what NASA is doing and really pushing the boundaries.

Kevin Noertker (00:06:02):
And so working at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory,

Kevin Noertker (00:06:05):
so this was early R&D as one of the summer undergraduate research fellows.

Kevin Noertker (00:06:13):
I got to really integrate in some teams doing some vastly, a few vastly different types of explorations.

Kevin Noertker (00:06:21):
One of them was quite practical.

Kevin Noertker (00:06:22):
It was practical.

Kevin Noertker (00:06:24):
It was building robots for Mars and the moon.

Kevin Noertker (00:06:27):
So that's kind of as practical as it gets there.

Kevin Noertker (00:06:29):
And those robots, we were actually in the Mars yard there at JPL.

Kevin Noertker (00:06:33):
I was building soil sampling and rock sampling devices.

Kevin Noertker (00:06:37):
So this question of when you're in Victoria Crater,

Kevin Noertker (00:06:39):
how do you actually look at the strata of rocks and build mechanisms,

Kevin Noertker (00:06:44):
tools for robots to go grab samples and then assess the geological timeline?

Kevin Noertker (00:06:51):
I was also working on...

Kevin Noertker (00:06:53):
These gathering samples from hot air balloons floating around one of Saturn's moons.

Kevin Noertker (00:06:58):
So wildly advanced ideas.

Kevin Noertker (00:07:00):
And this is the kind of environment that,

Kevin Noertker (00:07:02):
at least my experience at NASA was,

Kevin Noertker (00:07:05):
was surrounded by really genius people who are deeply passionate about the

Kevin Noertker (00:07:10):
contributions that they can make to the greater good.

Kevin Noertker (00:07:12):
Uh, right.

Kevin Noertker (00:07:13):
NASA is a, is very much about how to move technology, move industry, move humanity forward.

Kevin Noertker (00:07:21):
And, uh, and, uh, that was inspiring.

Kevin Noertker (00:07:24):
And I think it,

Kevin Noertker (00:07:25):
it opens your eyes to the realm of both what's possible,

Kevin Noertker (00:07:29):
but then what's,

Kevin Noertker (00:07:30):
it gives you the audacity to think just a bit beyond that and,

Kevin Noertker (00:07:34):
um,

Kevin Noertker (00:07:35):
was a really good,

Kevin Noertker (00:07:36):
uh,

Kevin Noertker (00:07:37):
a good place to start out some of my professional work and,

Kevin Noertker (00:07:41):
um,

Kevin Noertker (00:07:42):
maybe taught me how to apply rigor in some aspirational and exciting ways.

Silas Mähner (00:07:49):
Yeah, I think this is quite interesting.

Silas Mähner (00:07:50):
I guess for me,

Silas Mähner (00:07:52):
if I think about this,

Silas Mähner (00:07:53):
that sounds like what most people consider SpaceX to be today,

Silas Mähner (00:07:56):
right?

Silas Mähner (00:07:57):
So I mean, earlier, this was not really a thing.

Silas Mähner (00:07:59):
So that might just be the place where people perceive like,

Silas Mähner (00:08:02):
hey,

Silas Mähner (00:08:02):
this is literally the biggest dreams you can have.

Silas Mähner (00:08:06):
This is where you go to like work on these coolest things that to an average person

Silas Mähner (00:08:10):
on the street,

Silas Mähner (00:08:10):
it sounds like,

Silas Mähner (00:08:11):
All right, buddy.

Silas Mähner (00:08:12):
Like, what are you doing?

Silas Mähner (00:08:13):
But for the people who care about these things, it's awesome, right?

Silas Mähner (00:08:17):
And I think it just makes me think a little bit about how more companies can do

Silas Mähner (00:08:23):
better at kind of promoting how their vision is of what they're trying to build.

Silas Mähner (00:08:27):
Because if you can...

Silas Mähner (00:08:28):
sell a certain vision,

Silas Mähner (00:08:29):
you're going to attract some of the best minds,

Silas Mähner (00:08:32):
and then they sharpen each other,

Silas Mähner (00:08:33):
right?

Silas Mähner (00:08:33):
So that's kind of where you get these outputs.

Silas Mähner (00:08:35):
Obviously, working at SpaceX, from everybody I've ever heard, is a little intense.

Silas Mähner (00:08:39):
So maybe there's some trade-offs there.

Silas Mähner (00:08:41):
But what about the steps from going from Northrop to then founding the company?

Silas Mähner (00:08:46):
Can you walk us through what went through your mind?

Silas Mähner (00:08:49):
Why did you end up deciding to do this?

Silas Mähner (00:08:50):
Where did the kernel of the idea come from?

Kevin Noertker (00:08:53):
Yeah, so that's a really good question.

Kevin Noertker (00:08:56):
And I think actually it ties into the whole description around the role that

Kevin Noertker (00:09:00):
companies like SpaceX play in the world today.

Kevin Noertker (00:09:06):
So I had spent seven years at Northrop Grumman.

Kevin Noertker (00:09:09):
And I had worked on some magically advanced and amazing stuff.

Kevin Noertker (00:09:13):
I was so lucky to have started my career there because I very quickly got

Kevin Noertker (00:09:21):
responsibility over research and development projects and building teams and

Kevin Noertker (00:09:25):
pulling capital together.

Kevin Noertker (00:09:27):
So getting funding for those projects.

Kevin Noertker (00:09:30):
understanding the broad context beyond technology, like why do you develop technology?

Kevin Noertker (00:09:35):
It's to solve real problems.

Kevin Noertker (00:09:37):
And you have to think about the context of timelines and the schedules,

Kevin Noertker (00:09:42):
as well as the stakeholders and maintenance and support.

Kevin Noertker (00:09:44):
Anyway,

Kevin Noertker (00:09:45):
this experience at Northrop Grumman really taught me the kind of,

Kevin Noertker (00:09:50):
it laid the groundwork of what it takes,

Kevin Noertker (00:09:52):
really,

Kevin Noertker (00:09:53):
to bring actual technology solutions to market in the aerospace industry.

Kevin Noertker (00:10:00):
It's one thing to have an idea and a vision.

Kevin Noertker (00:10:03):
It's another to know how to execute on those goals.

Kevin Noertker (00:10:09):
I think it's probably been said before that the idea is the easy part and the day

Kevin Noertker (00:10:15):
in and day out execution is the hard part.

Kevin Noertker (00:10:17):
Well,

Kevin Noertker (00:10:17):
I suppose the seven years at Northrop gave me the confidence to think that I was

Kevin Noertker (00:10:24):
able to go build something.

Kevin Noertker (00:10:26):
The challenge that I was running into is that while I was working with great people

Kevin Noertker (00:10:31):
and on amazing and important projects,

Kevin Noertker (00:10:34):
I never felt as if I was maximizing the impact I was having.

Kevin Noertker (00:10:37):
And I think all of us have very short lives in the broad universal scheme of time.

Kevin Noertker (00:10:43):
And we have to do something with it.

Kevin Noertker (00:10:46):
And you really don't have a whole lot of time to waste.

Kevin Noertker (00:10:49):
Yeah.

Kevin Noertker (00:10:51):
And I realized I would not achieve all...

Kevin Noertker (00:10:53):
I would regret having not tried to do something bigger,

Kevin Noertker (00:10:56):
do something more directly impactful,

Kevin Noertker (00:10:58):
do something more audacious.

Kevin Noertker (00:11:01):
And I'm always looking for meaningful, challenging, visible work to do.

Kevin Noertker (00:11:06):
And starting Amp Air was...

Kevin Noertker (00:11:11):
is clearly in my mind, maximizing each of those three vectors.

Kevin Noertker (00:11:16):
So meaningful, the world absolutely needs what we're doing for sustainable aviation.

Kevin Noertker (00:11:23):
Challenging, there's very little harder than starting a company

Kevin Noertker (00:11:28):
And to do one in aviation and aerospace is quite difficult as well.

Kevin Noertker (00:11:33):
And then visible,

Kevin Noertker (00:11:34):
I think that when you do things that people care about,

Kevin Noertker (00:11:36):
that people see,

Kevin Noertker (00:11:37):
it snowballs opportunity and exposure and new ideas.

Kevin Noertker (00:11:42):
It also is an element, and this ties back into the SpaceX

Kevin Noertker (00:11:46):
thought like why launch a roadster into space on the tip of a rocket like what a

Kevin Noertker (00:11:52):
waste except that it's not it's actually it's awesome inspiring right and like

Kevin Noertker (00:11:58):
somebody once um somebody once challenged me on that they're like don't you think

Kevin Noertker (00:12:01):
it's wasteful it's like inspiring a generation is hardly wasteful and if you have a

Kevin Noertker (00:12:07):
kid who cannot associate and they've never seen a rocket before but they've

Kevin Noertker (00:12:12):
definitely seen a toy car and they're like well

Kevin Noertker (00:12:15):
There is somebody who's launching electric cars into space.

Kevin Noertker (00:12:20):
Like, that's something that's both accessible and absurd.

Kevin Noertker (00:12:24):
And it's memorable and it's inspiring.

Kevin Noertker (00:12:26):
And it's something that might cause somebody or a whole generation of somebodies to

Kevin Noertker (00:12:31):
choose impactful,

Kevin Noertker (00:12:32):
inspiring work.

Kevin Noertker (00:12:34):
And so this all flows into, I think, the ethos of when you start a company.

Kevin Noertker (00:12:39):
Why I started Amp Air with my co-founders was this idea of like,

Kevin Noertker (00:12:43):
there's really meaningful work to be done.

Kevin Noertker (00:12:46):
Oftentimes,

Kevin Noertker (00:12:46):
the big companies aren't the ones who are highly motivated to do that groundwork,

Kevin Noertker (00:12:51):
to do that early work.

Kevin Noertker (00:12:53):
And so leaving Northrop and beginning this organization was, I really saw that I had no alternative.

Kevin Noertker (00:13:01):
It just was, it felt like it was meant to be.

Silas Mähner (00:13:04):
Hey guys, sorry for the interruption.

Silas Mähner (00:13:06):
I just need a few seconds because Soma and I have two quick favors to ask.

Silas Mähner (00:13:09):
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Silas Mähner (00:13:13):
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Silas Mähner (00:13:17):
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Silas Mähner (00:13:21):
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Silas Mähner (00:13:22):
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Silas Mähner (00:13:25):
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Silas Mähner (00:13:37):
Now back to the show.

Silas Mähner (00:13:39):
Yeah,

Silas Mähner (00:13:39):
I think that I really like that,

Silas Mähner (00:13:41):
especially like the point about the,

Silas Mähner (00:13:43):
you know,

Silas Mähner (00:13:44):
let's call it the quote unquote value of inspiring a generation.

Silas Mähner (00:13:46):
Right.

Silas Mähner (00:13:46):
People are always,

Silas Mähner (00:13:47):
you know,

Silas Mähner (00:13:48):
like they like to throw stones at people for for doing things that seem crazy like this.

Silas Mähner (00:13:53):
But mainly because they're like, oh, you know, it's a waste.

Silas Mähner (00:13:55):
We could use that money for other people.

Silas Mähner (00:13:57):
But they forget that you sometimes need motivation to get through the difficulties.

Silas Mähner (00:14:00):
Right.

Silas Mähner (00:14:00):
So if you want people to be motivated,

Silas Mähner (00:14:02):
you need to have to have people who do things that are inspiring as well.

Silas Mähner (00:14:05):
So I think that's a, it's a great, it's a great point.

Silas Mähner (00:14:07):
I want to go into,

Silas Mähner (00:14:09):
since your technology,

Silas Mähner (00:14:10):
I mean,

Silas Mähner (00:14:10):
relatively,

Silas Mähner (00:14:11):
we can get into that a little bit,

Silas Mähner (00:14:12):
but broadly speaking,

Silas Mähner (00:14:13):
you know,

Silas Mähner (00:14:13):
in principle,

Silas Mähner (00:14:14):
you guys are building electric aircrafts,

Silas Mähner (00:14:16):
right?

Silas Mähner (00:14:16):
And a couple of different things.

Silas Mähner (00:14:18):
So I want to talk about the market landscape.

Silas Mähner (00:14:20):
You mentioned specifically that there are, this is going to be the third revolution in aviation.

Silas Mähner (00:14:26):
And, you know, I'm not somebody who's deeply into this.

Silas Mähner (00:14:28):
So can you just kind of explain for other people who like me are not,

Silas Mähner (00:14:31):
you know,

Silas Mähner (00:14:31):
as into this,

Silas Mähner (00:14:32):
what are the other two kind of revolutions?

Kevin Noertker (00:14:35):
Yeah.

Kevin Noertker (00:14:35):
So if you're thinking about aviation, there have really been two major shifts in the industry.

Kevin Noertker (00:14:44):
The first is, I would argue, the dawn of powered flight.

Kevin Noertker (00:14:47):
First revolution in air travel.

Kevin Noertker (00:14:49):
It's like Wright Brothers timeframes, right?

Kevin Noertker (00:14:51):
A hundred years ago.

Kevin Noertker (00:14:53):
when you had,

Kevin Noertker (00:14:54):
for the first time,

Kevin Noertker (00:14:55):
engines that were powering planes and the ability for humans to take controlled

Kevin Noertker (00:15:01):
flight for longer periods of time.

Kevin Noertker (00:15:03):
And that spurred this entire boom of innovation and aircraft designs and engine

Kevin Noertker (00:15:09):
designs and use cases and delivering mail and laid the beginnings of aviation.

Kevin Noertker (00:15:15):
But if you're thinking, like, why doesn't it look like that today?

Kevin Noertker (00:15:18):
Well, halfway between then and now, we had the jet age.

Kevin Noertker (00:15:22):
jet aircraft,

Kevin Noertker (00:15:24):
a new type of propulsion for these planes,

Kevin Noertker (00:15:26):
enabling aircraft performance,

Kevin Noertker (00:15:29):
aircraft design,

Kevin Noertker (00:15:31):
the kinds of routes that never were imaginable before.

Kevin Noertker (00:15:34):
For the first time ever, people were able to fly single hops across the country or across the oceans.

Kevin Noertker (00:15:41):
And to do so with economics that actually made sense for those markets.

Kevin Noertker (00:15:47):
And so whether it's the dawn of powered flight, first revolution, or the jet age, second revolution,

Kevin Noertker (00:15:54):
You can see how new technology has established capability and opened up broad opportunity.

Kevin Noertker (00:16:01):
Now, right now, what's happening is what we call the third revolution in air travel.

Kevin Noertker (00:16:06):
And that is driven by,

Kevin Noertker (00:16:07):
yet again,

Kevin Noertker (00:16:08):
a new propulsion technology,

Kevin Noertker (00:16:09):
this time enabled by the electric vehicle system.

Kevin Noertker (00:16:13):
So all that great tech that's in Teslas and Priuses and Cybertrucks and such,

Kevin Noertker (00:16:21):
these are the type of technologies that have been maturing over the last 30 years.

Kevin Noertker (00:16:25):
and that are now getting to the point where it actually makes sense to put them into aircraft.

Kevin Noertker (00:16:31):
And that is,

Kevin Noertker (00:16:33):
we believe,

Kevin Noertker (00:16:34):
going to drive a transformation in the industry that's as impactful of an

Kevin Noertker (00:16:40):
opportunity and,

Kevin Noertker (00:16:43):
quite frankly,

Kevin Noertker (00:16:44):
solving a lot of the issues that came as a result of those first revolutions in aviation.

Silas Mähner (00:16:52):
Yeah,

Silas Mähner (00:16:52):
so I guess so broadly speaking,

Silas Mähner (00:16:53):
there's of course the sustainability play,

Silas Mähner (00:16:56):
but do you have other things that you foresee as being kind of unlocks or side

Silas Mähner (00:17:01):
benefits that come from this?

Silas Mähner (00:17:02):
Like why is it important to pursue this very difficult task of this third revolution?

Kevin Noertker (00:17:09):
Sure.

Kevin Noertker (00:17:10):
It is critical for the environment that we decarbonize aviation,

Kevin Noertker (00:17:14):
that we decarbonize all these industries.

Kevin Noertker (00:17:16):
I think it's important for us collectively as humanity to accept that mission and

Kevin Noertker (00:17:22):
to take actions across the board on that.

Kevin Noertker (00:17:25):
But the reality is that you cannot ask people to pay a premium for most things.

Kevin Noertker (00:17:33):
And if you ask for a green premium in most markets, you're gonna encounter a lot of headwinds.

Kevin Noertker (00:17:39):
And so I think it's really important when you think about not just that you're

Kevin Noertker (00:17:44):
decarbonizing the industry,

Kevin Noertker (00:17:46):
but that you're doing so in a way that makes good business sense for those end users.

Kevin Noertker (00:17:52):
and and if you if you were to look i don't have any friends or if you've gone

Kevin Noertker (00:17:56):
through becoming a pilot i've got a couple friends right yeah and most people who

Kevin Noertker (00:18:03):
have not yet accomplished it will give

Kevin Noertker (00:18:08):
They excuse it's expensive.

Kevin Noertker (00:18:10):
It's kind of expensive to fly planes.

Kevin Noertker (00:18:13):
The fuel is the biggest expense.

Kevin Noertker (00:18:16):
The maintenance of an engine is the second biggest expense.

Kevin Noertker (00:18:19):
The pilots are the third biggest expense for most airlines.

Kevin Noertker (00:18:22):
And the reality of airlines that operate is that it's really economically hard to

Kevin Noertker (00:18:26):
do it well,

Kevin Noertker (00:18:27):
especially for the regional operators and even for some of the big ones.

Kevin Noertker (00:18:31):
And that fuel maintenance and pilots are heavy hitters on the kind of the P&L,

Kevin Noertker (00:18:39):
the profit and loss sheet there.

Kevin Noertker (00:18:40):
Those are some of the expensive things.

Kevin Noertker (00:18:42):
And so when you take electrification and what we're doing with hybrid electric propulsion for airplanes.

Kevin Noertker (00:18:49):
And we're cutting 50% of the fuel burn out of the aircraft.

Kevin Noertker (00:18:53):
50% reduction in fuel looks like a 20% to 40% savings in your direct operating costs.

Kevin Noertker (00:19:02):
And that translates to better operation,

Kevin Noertker (00:19:05):
better economics,

Kevin Noertker (00:19:06):
which turns into an economic development and social impact when you're increasing

Kevin Noertker (00:19:11):
service and connectivity to communities.

Kevin Noertker (00:19:14):
And to your question around how do you, like, what is the market?

Kevin Noertker (00:19:17):
Why do people care?

Kevin Noertker (00:19:19):
That's actually the reason that people are looking at buying our product at its

Kevin Noertker (00:19:23):
core is that because the economics are better and it's environmentally better,

Kevin Noertker (00:19:30):
then they're able to flow it thoughtfully into their operations.

Kevin Noertker (00:19:35):
And I think that that's really key for how do you scale a solution to global scale impact?

Kevin Noertker (00:19:42):
You do so with really good economics along the way.

Silas Mähner (00:19:45):
Yeah, okay.

Silas Mähner (00:19:46):
That makes sense.

Silas Mähner (00:19:46):
I guess I want to go back.

Silas Mähner (00:19:48):
You said something that it's going to be more economical.

Silas Mähner (00:19:52):
So this is quite interesting.

Silas Mähner (00:19:53):
You wouldn't assume this,

Silas Mähner (00:19:54):
but you're saying that even for both commercial and small airlines,

Silas Mähner (00:19:59):
like if you're flying a Cessna locally,

Silas Mähner (00:20:01):
because they can charge it on electricity instead of using fuel,

Silas Mähner (00:20:04):
it's going to make everything cheaper.

Kevin Noertker (00:20:08):
It makes the operating of the aircraft less expensive.

Kevin Noertker (00:20:12):
That's correct.

Kevin Noertker (00:20:12):
So where this technology enters the market is in those Cessna type aircraft.

Kevin Noertker (00:20:17):
So planes think, you know, first phase is everything up to about 100 seats.

Kevin Noertker (00:20:22):
So these generally are the propeller planes where you have one, two or many propellers on an aircraft.

Kevin Noertker (00:20:30):
And this is from a regulatory and a technology and a market readiness perspective.

Kevin Noertker (00:20:34):
standpoint the first um the first phase of where technology will be deployed and

Kevin Noertker (00:20:41):
yeah this is so this is what's really counterintuitive most people assume you have

Kevin Noertker (00:20:45):
to pay a green premium and i'll say there are a whole lot of solutions out there

Kevin Noertker (00:20:50):
fully electric hydrogen new built aircraft that and even other types of hybrids

Kevin Noertker (00:20:56):
that if done incorrectly,

Kevin Noertker (00:20:58):
actually will turn into a pretty significant green premium,

Kevin Noertker (00:21:02):
which will hold back their growth.

Kevin Noertker (00:21:03):
The key is to like to to when you use that as a critical factor in your optimization,

Kevin Noertker (00:21:09):
you can actually solve the problems in meaningful ways and ensure that it's lower,

Kevin Noertker (00:21:14):
it's lower cost to operate.

Kevin Noertker (00:21:16):
And in particular, it's not just about the recurring operating costs, but also the upfront cost.

Kevin Noertker (00:21:21):
is on par with a traditional combustion engine.

Kevin Noertker (00:21:24):
And so there's no premium up front and there's a benefit along the run.

Silas Mähner (00:21:29):
And so how is the aviation industry feeling about this?

Silas Mähner (00:21:32):
Like, are they generally supporting it, investing into it, or are they kind of hesitant?

Silas Mähner (00:21:37):
Because, you know, a lot of incumbents tend to be not so in favor of change.

Kevin Noertker (00:21:42):
Yeah, so it's been interesting, right?

Kevin Noertker (00:21:45):
We've been at this for eight years.

Kevin Noertker (00:21:47):
And at first, everyone just said we were crazy.

Kevin Noertker (00:21:51):
Electrified airplanes, that's absurd.

Kevin Noertker (00:21:53):
Like, what are you doing?

Kevin Noertker (00:21:54):
And then over time, people have said, well, you know, that might make sense.

Kevin Noertker (00:22:00):
And then you had a whole hype bubble where people were just like electric,

Kevin Noertker (00:22:03):
EV tall,

Kevin Noertker (00:22:05):
of course,

Kevin Noertker (00:22:05):
everything's working.

Kevin Noertker (00:22:06):
And there were a lot of people over committing in that area.

Kevin Noertker (00:22:09):
Our approach,

Kevin Noertker (00:22:10):
which is hybrid electric propulsion,

Kevin Noertker (00:22:13):
initially upgrading the existing fleet of planes,

Kevin Noertker (00:22:17):
what we've seen over time is people take a look at this and say,

Kevin Noertker (00:22:20):
like,

Kevin Noertker (00:22:20):
this actually makes sense.

Kevin Noertker (00:22:23):
Like, this is a non-speculative solution.

Kevin Noertker (00:22:27):
The technology in its commercializable form exists today.

Kevin Noertker (00:22:32):
the infrastructure doesn't need to be developed.

Kevin Noertker (00:22:35):
The industry,

Kevin Noertker (00:22:37):
the applicability,

Kevin Noertker (00:22:39):
the marketability,

Kevin Noertker (00:22:40):
the economics all make sense for existing users today.

Kevin Noertker (00:22:43):
And from a regulatory standpoint, it slots right into existing regulations.

Kevin Noertker (00:22:47):
So what we've seen in the world is actually a few swings of the pendulum from this

Kevin Noertker (00:22:53):
is crazy to this is obvious and Ampere's not going far enough into kind of the

Kevin Noertker (00:22:58):
The pure future vision type solutions.

Kevin Noertker (00:23:02):
And now the pendulum is swinging back toward people.

Kevin Noertker (00:23:04):
Hopefully we're able to stop it before people call us crazy again.

Kevin Noertker (00:23:07):
But right there in the middle.

Kevin Noertker (00:23:09):
right at that equilibrium point is where we aim to be as an organization,

Kevin Noertker (00:23:14):
which is like audacious goals that are non-speculative,

Kevin Noertker (00:23:19):
that we've got high confidence that we can achieve and that also drives significant impact.

Kevin Noertker (00:23:24):
And that's what we're starting to see with the airlines that we talk to,

Kevin Noertker (00:23:27):
with the investors and other stakeholders that we talk to,

Kevin Noertker (00:23:30):
that people have this strong desire still to have

Kevin Noertker (00:23:35):
world-positive impact on carbon emissions in the industry, but they're looking for

Kevin Noertker (00:23:41):
reasonable ways of going about it.

Kevin Noertker (00:23:44):
And so that's definitely where we're seeing the trend come back to.

Kevin Noertker (00:23:50):
And I think that that's one of the resilient parts of Amp Air is that by taking

Kevin Noertker (00:23:55):
those practical steps as well,

Kevin Noertker (00:23:57):
we're able to include those stakeholders that might otherwise be trying to shut

Kevin Noertker (00:24:02):
down innovation in the industry or are hesitant around it.

Kevin Noertker (00:24:07):
So there are a few things that would cause people to hesitate with new technology.

Kevin Noertker (00:24:11):
First, flying needs to be safe.

Kevin Noertker (00:24:16):
Like, it is table stakes.

Kevin Noertker (00:24:18):
You cannot go out there and say, well, we'll roll out the beta version and see how it goes, and then...

Kevin Noertker (00:24:26):
And then you roll out a software update to fix the things that cause the planes to fall out of the sky.

Kevin Noertker (00:24:32):
You just don't do that, right?

Kevin Noertker (00:24:34):
So there's a level of safety that's required.

Kevin Noertker (00:24:36):
And what that means is that there's a very high bar for what's allowed to become commercial.

Kevin Noertker (00:24:42):
Because when you get on a plane, you don't ask, hey, who built those engines?

Kevin Noertker (00:24:46):
Who built this plane?

Kevin Noertker (00:24:47):
You just assume it's safe.

Kevin Noertker (00:24:50):
And that assumption is really what the FAA and their counterparts around the world are protecting.

Kevin Noertker (00:24:56):
It is also one of the sticky points for people who are looking at adopting new technologies.

Kevin Noertker (00:25:02):
Airlines, pilots...

Kevin Noertker (00:25:04):
They trust the stuff that's been flying for the last 50 years.

Kevin Noertker (00:25:08):
Most of the technology and planes that are out there have been flying relatively

Kevin Noertker (00:25:11):
unchanged for a very long time.

Kevin Noertker (00:25:14):
And you can imagine that builds inertia in an industry that holds back then from adopting new technology.

Kevin Noertker (00:25:22):
So there's an education.

Kevin Noertker (00:25:24):
Rather than throw the whole industry into new tech, there's about bridging the gap.

Kevin Noertker (00:25:30):
Hybrid Electric does a pretty good job of that as well.

Kevin Noertker (00:25:33):
And then there's all the considerations around the players in the industry.

Kevin Noertker (00:25:39):
So, for example, we upgrade planes as well as work on the future of aviation.

Kevin Noertker (00:25:45):
So we've got vertical takeoff and landing projects, drone projects, all sorts of cool future stuff.

Kevin Noertker (00:25:51):
I'm also upgrading old Cessnas.

Kevin Noertker (00:25:54):
Why?

Kevin Noertker (00:25:54):
Because there are thousands of them out there.

Kevin Noertker (00:25:57):
In fact,

Kevin Noertker (00:25:58):
the battle for sustainable aviation is being fought in the sky above us today and

Kevin Noertker (00:26:02):
we're losing because we're burning normal fuels and we're burning 100%.

Kevin Noertker (00:26:05):
And so like the solutions we bring to market have to be able to address the planes

Kevin Noertker (00:26:12):
that are already out there.

Kevin Noertker (00:26:14):
And by doing that enables me to partner with those folks who currently run the industry, right?

Kevin Noertker (00:26:19):
The OEMs, the manufacturers of the airplanes.

Kevin Noertker (00:26:24):
It also enables me to partner with the manufacturers of traditional engines.

Kevin Noertker (00:26:28):
So traditional engines, these are the folks who are afraid I'm going to eat their lunch, right?

Kevin Noertker (00:26:33):
Like hybrid electric engines for planes are going to replace all the other traditional engines.

Kevin Noertker (00:26:37):
But because we're hybrid electric,

Kevin Noertker (00:26:40):
we're actually able to leverage a lot of the great technology that was there in the

Kevin Noertker (00:26:43):
industry before.

Kevin Noertker (00:26:45):
We're just using it in a new way, a more energy optimized way that reduces fuel burn.

Kevin Noertker (00:26:51):
And yes,

Kevin Noertker (00:26:51):
eventually,

Kevin Noertker (00:26:52):
when the world does go fully electric or other sorts of electric energy storage,

Kevin Noertker (00:26:57):
those combustion engine companies are going to have a hard day as their market

Kevin Noertker (00:27:01):
share goes away.

Kevin Noertker (00:27:03):
And what Amp Air is doing, it's building the bridge between the two.

Kevin Noertker (00:27:06):
And I expect to be able to hold market share there in that future area because I've

Kevin Noertker (00:27:12):
been such an early player in it.

Silas Mähner (00:27:13):
Yeah.

Silas Mähner (00:27:15):
It's really interesting.

Silas Mähner (00:27:15):
You brought up a couple of things.

Silas Mähner (00:27:16):
One, the pendulum swinging too far one way and coming back.

Silas Mähner (00:27:20):
I think this is a…

Silas Mähner (00:27:21):
a trend that unfortunately causes a lot of issues for many people in climate

Silas Mähner (00:27:26):
because investors just pile in once they realize there's opportunity and then it

Silas Mähner (00:27:30):
gets a little too out of hand.

Silas Mähner (00:27:32):
But the other thing was the partnering with incumbents.

Silas Mähner (00:27:35):
I think effectively every climate tech company that we've seen that's doing really

Silas Mähner (00:27:40):
well has some form of working with them.

Silas Mähner (00:27:43):
And you can't exactly flip an industry on its head because people...

Silas Mähner (00:27:47):
Mainly, like you said, out of momentum.

Silas Mähner (00:27:49):
They're just not going to change, right?

Silas Mähner (00:27:51):
They're not going to overnight throw everything out because the people who invented flying,

Silas Mähner (00:27:55):
right,

Silas Mähner (00:27:55):
when they first do it,

Silas Mähner (00:27:56):
these were people who were on the very early adoption curve.

Silas Mähner (00:27:59):
And now you've got people who are not interested in early adoption for risky things like flying, right?

Silas Mähner (00:28:04):
So I think it's a very good point, too, that you make that we can't just replace people.

Silas Mähner (00:28:09):
You're not just going to build brand new airplanes for everything.

Silas Mähner (00:28:12):
Even if you build all electric today, what are you going to do with the existing stock?

Silas Mähner (00:28:15):
It's kind of a waste, right?

Silas Mähner (00:28:16):
So some really great points you bring up.

Silas Mähner (00:28:18):
I want to shift into the commercialization process because we're talking about it

Silas Mähner (00:28:23):
now and kind of the path,

Silas Mähner (00:28:25):
but can you walk us through step-by-step

Silas Mähner (00:28:27):
from, okay, we've got an idea.

Silas Mähner (00:28:29):
Maybe you go out and raise money based off an idea,

Silas Mähner (00:28:32):
but then at some point you've got to de-risk it and show traction.

Silas Mähner (00:28:35):
Can you just go through the steps you took to actually achieve revenue,

Silas Mähner (00:28:38):
whether it's pre-orders or whatnot along the way so people can understand and apply

Silas Mähner (00:28:43):
this to their own climate tech startups?

Kevin Noertker (00:28:45):
Sure.

Kevin Noertker (00:28:46):
Absolutely.

Kevin Noertker (00:28:46):
So I have this principle that I like to implement that I call setting invariant milestones.

Kevin Noertker (00:28:55):
invariant milestones.

Kevin Noertker (00:28:56):
So these are goals that we set that we know are true regardless of how the world

Kevin Noertker (00:29:01):
changes around us in the interim.

Kevin Noertker (00:29:03):
So we can be very focused on making progress and then can achieve that look up and

Kevin Noertker (00:29:11):
then achieve the next set of milestones.

Kevin Noertker (00:29:13):
This actually aligns pretty well with how venture capital structure and fundraising

Kevin Noertker (00:29:19):
cycles work as well,

Kevin Noertker (00:29:21):
where each subsequent round of capital

Kevin Noertker (00:29:24):
is about peeling away the risk of the company.

Kevin Noertker (00:29:28):
So if you think about the earliest days,

Kevin Noertker (00:29:31):
it's like just an idea and a person,

Kevin Noertker (00:29:33):
maybe some people,

Kevin Noertker (00:29:35):
and there's question about will they be able to build a team?

Kevin Noertker (00:29:39):
Is the idea even possible?

Kevin Noertker (00:29:41):
Does it comply with physics?

Kevin Noertker (00:29:43):
Like there are some really basic risks that are in there.

Kevin Noertker (00:29:46):
And in your very first kind of sprint as a company,

Kevin Noertker (00:29:50):
you're there to prove out that like in concept, this technology works.

Kevin Noertker (00:29:56):
So for us, it was about building the first iteration on our system.

Kevin Noertker (00:30:01):
It was also an element about building the right,

Kevin Noertker (00:30:06):
like validating with customers that the technology isn't going to just be a

Kevin Noertker (00:30:11):
solution looking for a problem,

Kevin Noertker (00:30:13):
but that it actually addresses core needs of an end user base.

Kevin Noertker (00:30:17):
And so as you go through,

Kevin Noertker (00:30:19):
so for example,

Kevin Noertker (00:30:20):
at Amp Air,

Kevin Noertker (00:30:21):
we decided to build a propulsion system and upgrade an old airplane.

Kevin Noertker (00:30:25):
That airplane had two engines in it.

Kevin Noertker (00:30:27):
Originally, we replaced one of those with our electric system, all electric drivetrain in one half.

Kevin Noertker (00:30:34):
fully combustion in the other half.

Kevin Noertker (00:30:36):
This gave us redundancy and a really great level of safety.

Kevin Noertker (00:30:39):
So the principle here is that milestone,

Kevin Noertker (00:30:41):
I knew it would be meaningful for us to build that technology and to fly it.

Kevin Noertker (00:30:45):
We were the first in the world to fly that level of a hybrid electric plane.

Kevin Noertker (00:30:48):
That happened back in 2019.

Kevin Noertker (00:30:51):
And this enabled us to go through all the growing pains of maturing that technology very,

Kevin Noertker (00:30:57):
very fast because I also was incredibly focused on what was the problem we were

Kevin Noertker (00:31:04):
trying to solve initially.

Kevin Noertker (00:31:06):
And that was rather than designing a brand new airplane,

Kevin Noertker (00:31:09):
which at the time we founded the company,

Kevin Noertker (00:31:11):
we were thinking about step number one was to develop the propulsion system for

Kevin Noertker (00:31:16):
those new airplanes,

Kevin Noertker (00:31:18):
because designing a plane around propulsion that doesn't exist is a guaranteed

Kevin Noertker (00:31:23):
recipe for having to redesign that plane down the road.

Kevin Noertker (00:31:27):
Just Google electric airplane,

Kevin Noertker (00:31:29):
find your company of choice,

Kevin Noertker (00:31:31):
and then look at the progression of their design over the years.

Kevin Noertker (00:31:34):
And it'll have,

Kevin Noertker (00:31:35):
But I guarantee that it will have changed.

Kevin Noertker (00:31:37):
And it's because they will have learned so much through the process.

Kevin Noertker (00:31:41):
But that's a very inefficient way of going about it, right?

Kevin Noertker (00:31:43):
It costs a lot of money to solve all the problems simultaneously.

Kevin Noertker (00:31:47):
So there's this idea that I read in a book and spoke with some folks at X, the moonshot factory.

Kevin Noertker (00:31:57):
And there's about monkeys and pedestals.

Kevin Noertker (00:32:00):
And if you're trying to have a monkey juggling on a pedestal, don't start by building the pedestal.

Kevin Noertker (00:32:05):
Like anybody can be building that.

Kevin Noertker (00:32:06):
We can do that later.

Kevin Noertker (00:32:07):
In our industry,

Kevin Noertker (00:32:08):
aircraft design,

Kevin Noertker (00:32:10):
while you can innovate there and you will be able to innovate there because of new technologies,

Kevin Noertker (00:32:15):
aircraft design is kind of the pedestal here.

Kevin Noertker (00:32:18):
What is novel,

Kevin Noertker (00:32:19):
the juggling monkey here is can you get electrified aviation approved by the

Kevin Noertker (00:32:23):
regulatory bodies and accepted by the world and into market?

Kevin Noertker (00:32:28):
That is the hardest part.

Kevin Noertker (00:32:29):
That is the most novel part.

Kevin Noertker (00:32:31):
And it is upon the solution coming to market there that you'll then be able to

Kevin Noertker (00:32:36):
build the beautiful aircraft pedestals of the future.

Kevin Noertker (00:32:40):
And so it's about knowing the problem and then trying to solve that problem or

Kevin Noertker (00:32:44):
disprove its possibility as rapidly as possible.

Kevin Noertker (00:32:47):
And so we did this through the upgrading of planes, validation with customers, refining.

Kevin Noertker (00:32:53):
So, for example, we started fully electric because, I mean, who wouldn't?

Kevin Noertker (00:32:57):
Obviously, you want to go fully electric.

Kevin Noertker (00:32:59):
And then realizing over the course of these iterations that fully electric was

Kevin Noertker (00:33:04):
unlikely to get us where our customers truly needed.

Kevin Noertker (00:33:08):
They would buy fully.

Kevin Noertker (00:33:10):
A fully electric plane,

Kevin Noertker (00:33:11):
like write a letter of interest for one,

Kevin Noertker (00:33:14):
but they weren't really going to buy a fully electric plane because it wasn't going

Kevin Noertker (00:33:17):
to solve their needs.

Kevin Noertker (00:33:18):
And so when you eliminate the varnish and you just get down into the truth of it

Kevin Noertker (00:33:22):
and have kind of those hard conversations,

Kevin Noertker (00:33:24):
it then helps you continue again to focus in what actually matters and what are we

Kevin Noertker (00:33:30):
going to do about it?

Kevin Noertker (00:33:31):
And how do we know that our customer basis is going to be aligned?

Kevin Noertker (00:33:35):
And so each of these from the venture capital and fundraising environment,

Kevin Noertker (00:33:40):
each of these learning cycles is oftentimes tied to your capital raise.

Kevin Noertker (00:33:46):
So we raised capital in order to kind of prove that electric aircraft was

Kevin Noertker (00:33:50):
interesting and that customers would be interested to buy it.

Kevin Noertker (00:33:54):
Raised more capital to build and fly the first prototype.

Kevin Noertker (00:33:57):
raise more capital to expand that fleet and engage a broader customer set,

Kevin Noertker (00:34:01):
raise more capital to build out the prototype of our commercial product,

Kevin Noertker (00:34:08):
which we flew for the first time in 2022.

Kevin Noertker (00:34:11):
And now I'm back in market raising capital to get the certification.

Kevin Noertker (00:34:17):
Each of these is just one layer of risk

Kevin Noertker (00:34:20):
being eliminated from the program.

Kevin Noertker (00:34:23):
And so by this point in time, we've proven the technology.

Kevin Noertker (00:34:25):
We've got a great team.

Kevin Noertker (00:34:26):
Our customers want it.

Kevin Noertker (00:34:28):
The economics work out.

Kevin Noertker (00:34:29):
The infrastructure works.

Kevin Noertker (00:34:30):
Regulation is as de-risked as it can get in this industry.

Kevin Noertker (00:34:35):
And yet now I just need to go through that process of getting the approval.

Kevin Noertker (00:34:39):
And so these are the ways that you tie risk management to your capital raises.

Silas Mähner (00:34:45):
With what you're doing,

Silas Mähner (00:34:46):
since you're going to be selling propulsion systems,

Silas Mähner (00:34:48):
were you able to go out and collect actual deposits from potential customers or use

Silas Mähner (00:34:53):
CVCs from,

Silas Mähner (00:34:55):
I don't know,

Silas Mähner (00:34:56):
another big airline that their venture arm wanted to invest so they could commit to

Silas Mähner (00:35:00):
buying the propulsion systems later on?

Silas Mähner (00:35:03):
Or was it just a letter of intent?

Kevin Noertker (00:35:05):
So we have received pre-delivery payments or deposits for some of the systems that we've sold.

Kevin Noertker (00:35:11):
So we're at that phase.

Kevin Noertker (00:35:13):
We still, by sheer volume, we have so many letters of interest.

Kevin Noertker (00:35:18):
So many that I've really stopped announcing them.

Kevin Noertker (00:35:21):
Okay.

Kevin Noertker (00:35:22):
And because I'm also about like building credibility in the industry.

Kevin Noertker (00:35:25):
And I think a whole lot of people swung the pendulum way too far on vanity metrics that were not real.

Kevin Noertker (00:35:31):
And now...

Kevin Noertker (00:35:35):
So trying to keep that one pretty level-headed and thoughtful.

Kevin Noertker (00:35:39):
But yes, so from a capital standpoint, there are a few sources of capital.

Kevin Noertker (00:35:43):
First and foremost,

Kevin Noertker (00:35:44):
engaging with your customers and making sure that there's a willingness to pay is important.

Kevin Noertker (00:35:49):
So the LOIs, turning those into framework purchase agreements that include deposits.

Kevin Noertker (00:35:54):
In many cases,

Kevin Noertker (00:35:56):
there are also customers who have the,

Kevin Noertker (00:35:59):
or stakeholders who have the capacity to do strategic investments.

Kevin Noertker (00:36:03):
And and so that's an important ingredient because it's not just about capital that

Kevin Noertker (00:36:09):
you bring in,

Kevin Noertker (00:36:10):
but it's the value that they bring in alongside it.

Kevin Noertker (00:36:12):
So think flagship airline partnering and supporting the growth.

Kevin Noertker (00:36:17):
There's another thing that's really common in aerospace,

Kevin Noertker (00:36:19):
especially here in the United States,

Kevin Noertker (00:36:21):
but also internationally,

Kevin Noertker (00:36:23):
is just look at any aerospace company and ask,

Kevin Noertker (00:36:28):
did they take government money?

Kevin Noertker (00:36:32):
And.

Kevin Noertker (00:36:33):
Almost every major aerospace company out there,

Kevin Noertker (00:36:36):
at least the ones I'm aware of,

Kevin Noertker (00:36:37):
has taken significant capital from the government.

Kevin Noertker (00:36:41):
And so whether that's Amp Air's early work and continuing work with NASA in their

Kevin Noertker (00:36:46):
sustainable aviation initiatives or the Department of Energy in their initiatives

Kevin Noertker (00:36:52):
or work with the U.S.

Kevin Noertker (00:36:53):
Air Force and other DoD partners in their interests here, they're sources of early revenue.

Kevin Noertker (00:37:01):
Ampere is doing about $6 million a year right now in revenue and able to operate

Kevin Noertker (00:37:06):
cash flow positively if we choose.

Kevin Noertker (00:37:08):
And that's a really powerful position to leverage the investor dollars that come in.

Kevin Noertker (00:37:15):
And so to date,

Kevin Noertker (00:37:16):
we've raised about $30 million of venture and brought in about $25 million worth of contracts.

Kevin Noertker (00:37:24):
So that's a pretty healthy split and balance.

Kevin Noertker (00:37:26):
And that if you look at how,

Kevin Noertker (00:37:28):
whether it's SpaceX or Boeing or Airbus or any of these other groups,

Kevin Noertker (00:37:32):
how they actually grew,

Kevin Noertker (00:37:34):
it's through both their commercial market,

Kevin Noertker (00:37:38):
but then also the government customers who care.

Kevin Noertker (00:37:41):
And that helps build a kind of an orthogonal basis for the markets,

Kevin Noertker (00:37:46):
which is a bit more resilient as a company.

Silas Mähner (00:37:49):
I think it's quite interesting because there's actually quite a lot of

Silas Mähner (00:37:52):
opportunities for commercialization.

Silas Mähner (00:37:54):
Even with very difficult things like this,

Silas Mähner (00:37:56):
that's kind of the point I wanted to get you to bring up is that you can fund it in

Silas Mähner (00:38:00):
different ways.

Silas Mähner (00:38:01):
I'm assuming at a certain point,

Silas Mähner (00:38:02):
once you get maybe the license or the licensing required,

Silas Mähner (00:38:05):
then you can probably raise a debt facility because you've…

Silas Mähner (00:38:07):
You've got customers,

Silas Mähner (00:38:08):
you've got all these things,

Silas Mähner (00:38:09):
like it'll be easy to not have to destroy your cap table at that point.

Silas Mähner (00:38:12):
So I think you're at a point where it's really helpful for a lot of other founders

Silas Mähner (00:38:16):
who listen,

Silas Mähner (00:38:16):
who need to get there,

Silas Mähner (00:38:18):
right?

Silas Mähner (00:38:18):
There's a lot of founders who have not made it here,

Silas Mähner (00:38:21):
but they need to have a North star towards,

Silas Mähner (00:38:23):
you know,

Silas Mähner (00:38:24):
this is what we're going to,

Silas Mähner (00:38:25):
this is what we need to do along the way.

Silas Mähner (00:38:26):
And I know third sphere among other VCs have put some really good information about that out there.

Silas Mähner (00:38:32):
We're going to have enough time to not go through everything I wanted to,

Silas Mähner (00:38:35):
but I do want to touch briefly on the technology itself.

Silas Mähner (00:38:38):
So could you just speak high level to the kind of core considerations or main challenges,

Silas Mähner (00:38:43):
if you will,

Silas Mähner (00:38:44):
around designing these kind of hybrid systems?

Silas Mähner (00:38:48):
What are the main considerations?

Silas Mähner (00:38:50):
And then at the end of the day,

Silas Mähner (00:38:52):
once you put these things in,

Silas Mähner (00:38:53):
how does the plane feel compared to what people are used to?

Kevin Noertker (00:38:57):
Sure.

Kevin Noertker (00:38:57):
So the technology actually operates very similar to how hybrid electric works on the ground.

Kevin Noertker (00:39:06):
Now,

Kevin Noertker (00:39:06):
the key underlying technology,

Kevin Noertker (00:39:08):
the electric vehicle systems,

Kevin Noertker (00:39:10):
you've got lithium ion batteries,

Kevin Noertker (00:39:11):
power electronics,

Kevin Noertker (00:39:12):
electric motors.

Kevin Noertker (00:39:13):
You have that married up with the combustion portions of the systems.

Kevin Noertker (00:39:17):
You can do those in series hybrid, where it's effectively like a generator that distributes the power.

Kevin Noertker (00:39:22):
Or you could do it in a parallel hybrid, where you're getting the power from each of the systems.

Kevin Noertker (00:39:27):
The aircraft integration,

Kevin Noertker (00:39:29):
that's a really sensitive topic that needs to be addressed thoughtfully through

Kevin Noertker (00:39:34):
good engineering,

Kevin Noertker (00:39:36):
is in aircraft,

Kevin Noertker (00:39:37):
everything comes down to weight.

Kevin Noertker (00:39:39):
So the weight of the battery,

Kevin Noertker (00:39:41):
the weight of the engine,

Kevin Noertker (00:39:42):
the distribution of that weight across the airplane.

Kevin Noertker (00:39:45):
Think of an airplane as balancing.

Kevin Noertker (00:39:48):
It has to balance its weight forward and back and side to side in order to fly properly.

Kevin Noertker (00:39:55):
And so it's not just how much you weigh, but where that weight exists within the plane.

Kevin Noertker (00:39:59):
So weight and balance and and then working through that in such a way that the

Kevin Noertker (00:40:04):
weight capacity,

Kevin Noertker (00:40:05):
sure,

Kevin Noertker (00:40:06):
you might be able to fly the plane.

Kevin Noertker (00:40:07):
But how much payload can you carry?

Kevin Noertker (00:40:10):
So how many passengers, how much cargo, right?

Kevin Noertker (00:40:13):
So taking all of these pieces,

Kevin Noertker (00:40:15):
the weight of the system,

Kevin Noertker (00:40:16):
the weight of the passengers,

Kevin Noertker (00:40:18):
the balance of the airplane,

Kevin Noertker (00:40:20):
and then saying,

Kevin Noertker (00:40:21):
what can I actually achieve with this?

Kevin Noertker (00:40:23):
So the core technology, when fully electric, you end up filling a plane with batteries, but nothing else.

Kevin Noertker (00:40:29):
And so you can't really fly cargo or passengers if you're just flying batteries around.

Kevin Noertker (00:40:34):
And that's one of the big limitations is that if you put passengers in there, you're not putting many.

Kevin Noertker (00:40:40):
So the economics are struggle when you are only flying one or two people at a time.

Kevin Noertker (00:40:45):
Or you're not flying very far because you're not carrying a whole lot of energy.

Kevin Noertker (00:40:48):
And this is where either wildly advanced batteries or other like electric energy

Kevin Noertker (00:40:54):
storage or hybrid electric helps,

Kevin Noertker (00:40:57):
right?

Kevin Noertker (00:40:57):
So this is about extending the range in an energy efficient way.

Kevin Noertker (00:41:02):
The hybrids are interesting because you're balancing efficiencies between multiple systems.

Kevin Noertker (00:41:08):
Aviation engines are asked to traditionally be very high power in takeoff and

Kevin Noertker (00:41:14):
modest power in cruise,

Kevin Noertker (00:41:16):
especially in this category.

Kevin Noertker (00:41:18):
But engines,

Kevin Noertker (00:41:19):
thermal engines,

Kevin Noertker (00:41:20):
combustion engines,

Kevin Noertker (00:41:21):
don't like being operated at two different power points.

Kevin Noertker (00:41:26):
You really are only optimal at one power setting.

Kevin Noertker (00:41:29):
And so what we're able to do is we're able to optimize the combustion system for

Kevin Noertker (00:41:34):
that in our first iteration here for the cruise phase of flight and get the

Kevin Noertker (00:41:39):
electric boost to give all the power during takeoff and climb.

Kevin Noertker (00:41:42):
And so you're using each system where it's most energy efficient,

Kevin Noertker (00:41:47):
and that gives an energy optimization at the vehicle level.

Kevin Noertker (00:41:50):
So then you can you can fly your long distance flights.

Kevin Noertker (00:41:54):
You can recharge in the air in case you didn't have any

Kevin Noertker (00:41:57):
any charging infrastructure on the ground.

Kevin Noertker (00:42:02):
And then you were able to deploy this technology in meaningful ways that carry a

Kevin Noertker (00:42:08):
sufficient payload to matter for the customers.

Kevin Noertker (00:42:10):
And so that's how the underlying electric vehicle technologies tie in and integrate

Kevin Noertker (00:42:17):
into the aircraft and ultimately into the ecosystem that supports them.

Silas Mähner (00:42:21):
Awesome.

Silas Mähner (00:42:21):
So just a minute, you said that you can recharge in the air?

Kevin Noertker (00:42:26):
Yeah, that's right.

Kevin Noertker (00:42:27):
So it's a lot like how a hybrid electric car works on the ground, right?

Kevin Noertker (00:42:32):
So you've got a combustion engine portion of a hybrid.

Kevin Noertker (00:42:34):
You've also got an electric vehicle portion, right?

Kevin Noertker (00:42:38):
The electric drivetrain systems.

Kevin Noertker (00:42:40):
And so what we're able to do is during the cruise phase of flight,

Kevin Noertker (00:42:43):
we've got a little bit of extra power in that combustion engine.

Kevin Noertker (00:42:46):
And if you're flying to a location where there are no plugs on the ground,

Kevin Noertker (00:42:50):
you can actually trickle charge your batteries during flight

Kevin Noertker (00:42:54):
from that combustion engine now of course that burns a little bit of extra fuel

Kevin Noertker (00:42:58):
right that's not the most fuel uh best fuel economy that you can get as a vehicle

Kevin Noertker (00:43:04):
but what's really important is both to get you know good fuel economy but then also

Kevin Noertker (00:43:09):
really to unlock what the market needs and the market needs operating flexibility

Kevin Noertker (00:43:15):
you need confidence

Kevin Noertker (00:43:17):
that you're not going to get stranded at an airport location without a charging plug.

Kevin Noertker (00:43:22):
And so we think when opening up the industry,

Kevin Noertker (00:43:25):
when we're basically able to give the best of both worlds with this kind of a solution.

Silas Mähner (00:43:30):
Yeah,

Silas Mähner (00:43:30):
I think it would be pretty bad if you land somewhere in Alaska and there just

Silas Mähner (00:43:34):
doesn't happen to be charge that day.

Silas Mähner (00:43:36):
You'd be kind of out of luck.

Silas Mähner (00:43:38):
That would be really bad.

Silas Mähner (00:43:38):
So on that topic, I guess, let's speak about infrastructure.

Silas Mähner (00:43:42):
So if we are going to go to a fully electric future,

Silas Mähner (00:43:45):
kind of what would that look like in terms of doing the upgrades and why is it so

Silas Mähner (00:43:50):
difficult to just do it overnight and go straight to electric?

Kevin Noertker (00:43:53):
Yeah, so when you think about fully electric future, right, I mean just look on the ground.

Kevin Noertker (00:43:59):
Where are there sufficient electric vehicle grid infrastructure upgrades or plugs

Kevin Noertker (00:44:06):
so that the entire ground fleet could be fully electric?

Kevin Noertker (00:44:09):
What does it take to actually get there?

Kevin Noertker (00:44:12):
Now,

Kevin Noertker (00:44:12):
these are really big challenges,

Kevin Noertker (00:44:14):
the infrastructure upgrades,

Kevin Noertker (00:44:16):
the grid here in the United States and elsewhere in the world.

Kevin Noertker (00:44:19):
likely needs to be upgraded pretty significantly in order to be able to handle that

Kevin Noertker (00:44:24):
kind of demand from the grid,

Kevin Noertker (00:44:27):
that much electricity.

Kevin Noertker (00:44:29):
And so whether it's those upgrades,

Kevin Noertker (00:44:30):
which themselves are half a decade long programs or projects,

Kevin Noertker (00:44:35):
sometimes relatively expensive,

Kevin Noertker (00:44:36):
all the permitting that goes along with it or the actual installation.

Kevin Noertker (00:44:42):
So these things will take time.

Silas Mähner (00:44:46):
So just to clarify then, broadly speaking, you're saying that there's two major components.

Silas Mähner (00:44:51):
One on the actual,

Silas Mähner (00:44:52):
we need to generate more electricity on the grid at scale,

Silas Mähner (00:44:56):
but also that at the airport,

Silas Mähner (00:44:57):
it's not like they have,

Silas Mähner (00:44:59):
this is not something that's easily,

Silas Mähner (00:45:01):
we can just plug in some extra equipment here.

Kevin Noertker (00:45:04):
That's correct.

Kevin Noertker (00:45:04):
Yeah.

Kevin Noertker (00:45:04):
For most of the small airports where we've been operating and where we go visit,

Kevin Noertker (00:45:09):
the grid infrastructure isn't in place yet to even deliver that kind of power.

Kevin Noertker (00:45:15):
And we're not yet generating sufficient clean, low-cost green electricity at all these locations.

Kevin Noertker (00:45:23):
So it's kind of the two-part infrastructure challenge.

Kevin Noertker (00:45:26):
And that's why we partner with the infrastructure developers so that we can

Kevin Noertker (00:45:30):
thoughtfully upgrade that infrastructure.

Kevin Noertker (00:45:32):
So from the generation,

Kevin Noertker (00:45:34):
the storage,

Kevin Noertker (00:45:35):
the distribution,

Kevin Noertker (00:45:36):
turning airports into municipal energy hubs,

Kevin Noertker (00:45:40):
energy resiliency hubs,

Kevin Noertker (00:45:42):
this is one step.

Kevin Noertker (00:45:44):
that gets you the energy, but then also enables you to deliver it.

Kevin Noertker (00:45:47):
And our strategy here is to do so,

Kevin Noertker (00:45:50):
call it incrementally,

Kevin Noertker (00:45:52):
alongside the deployment to the hybrid planes,

Kevin Noertker (00:45:54):
rather than as a prerequisite before anything gets delivered,

Kevin Noertker (00:45:58):
as you might find in alternative approaches.

Silas Mähner (00:46:02):
Yeah, I think it's important to be pragmatic about how you approach things.

Silas Mähner (00:46:06):
If you want to make decarbonization today, you may have to take the middle road like you guys are doing.

Silas Mähner (00:46:11):
I actually really like that approach because you're getting something done and

Silas Mähner (00:46:15):
you're not making excuses as to why things don't work.

Silas Mähner (00:46:18):
You're just finding out ways to do something.

Silas Mähner (00:46:21):
So I like that a lot.

Silas Mähner (00:46:22):
I guess just maybe one last kind of off-base question would be,

Silas Mähner (00:46:26):
will it prove being relatively difficult for airports to manage in the future when

Silas Mähner (00:46:32):
it comes to actually charging planes versus fueling?

Silas Mähner (00:46:35):
Because I don't know how it works,

Silas Mähner (00:46:37):
but I'm assuming a pilot just has a way of paying the fuel bill essentially when

Silas Mähner (00:46:41):
they show up.

Silas Mähner (00:46:42):
Would it be really difficult to just swap over the system for charging other people's planes?

Kevin Noertker (00:46:48):
Yeah,

Kevin Noertker (00:46:48):
so the way that fueling a plane works,

Kevin Noertker (00:46:51):
generally you'll park the plane and then you can actually see fuel trucks drive up

Kevin Noertker (00:46:55):
or the hoses at large airports plug in.

Kevin Noertker (00:46:58):
And that's how you refuel a plane.

Kevin Noertker (00:47:00):
So there are a number of concepts for how people think about charging electric, electrified aircraft.

Kevin Noertker (00:47:06):
The first and foremost is just a plug up to the, you know, through a transformer up to the wall.

Kevin Noertker (00:47:12):
Like think a level two, level three type chargers, right?

Kevin Noertker (00:47:15):
So this requires industrial power.

Kevin Noertker (00:47:18):
but is somewhat accessible to the infrastructure at airports today.

Kevin Noertker (00:47:24):
Now,

Kevin Noertker (00:47:24):
when you're looking at megawatt class power chargers,

Kevin Noertker (00:47:27):
these are really,

Kevin Noertker (00:47:28):
really big infrastructure type challenges that really smart people are working on.

Kevin Noertker (00:47:34):
There are some interoperability questions that come in around when you've got fuel

Kevin Noertker (00:47:40):
and electricity,

Kevin Noertker (00:47:41):
how do these play nicely together?

Kevin Noertker (00:47:42):
How do you ensure safety?

Kevin Noertker (00:47:45):
And so generally,

Kevin Noertker (00:47:46):
I think the way the industry is going to evolve is that initially these things will

Kevin Noertker (00:47:50):
be relatively separate.

Kevin Noertker (00:47:52):
So,

Kevin Noertker (00:47:52):
for example,

Kevin Noertker (00:47:52):
in a hybrid,

Kevin Noertker (00:47:53):
you're going to refuel on the ground like normal during your daily operation.

Kevin Noertker (00:47:58):
But then overnight, you'll be plugging in on the ground to top off your batteries.

Kevin Noertker (00:48:04):
Or if you didn't,

Kevin Noertker (00:48:06):
if let's say you've got plenty of fuel capacity on the plane and you're hopping around,

Kevin Noertker (00:48:09):
you might not need to refuel,

Kevin Noertker (00:48:11):
but you might top off your batteries if you have a bit of extra time.

Kevin Noertker (00:48:14):
So the turnaround times for these small airlines are generally on the shorter end,

Kevin Noertker (00:48:19):
minimum like 10 minutes,

Kevin Noertker (00:48:21):
and then up to 30,

Kevin Noertker (00:48:22):
40 minutes turnaround between flights.

Kevin Noertker (00:48:25):
And it's kind of two factors,

Kevin Noertker (00:48:28):
one on the infrastructure side,

Kevin Noertker (00:48:29):
the other on how do you ensure safety along the way.

Silas Mähner (00:48:32):
And that timeline is mainly for fuel or for actually for charging?

Kevin Noertker (00:48:36):
That's the, well, those turnaround times are all encompassing.

Kevin Noertker (00:48:40):
That's unloading passengers,

Kevin Noertker (00:48:41):
unloading bags,

Kevin Noertker (00:48:42):
putting new fuel,

Kevin Noertker (00:48:43):
new bags,

Kevin Noertker (00:48:44):
new peanuts,

Kevin Noertker (00:48:45):
like whatever you need to do on the plane.

Kevin Noertker (00:48:46):
That's the turnaround time that our operators work with.

Kevin Noertker (00:48:50):
I mean,

Kevin Noertker (00:48:50):
there have been flights that have been on that didn't even turn off one of the

Kevin Noertker (00:48:54):
propellers that you land and then people are offloading and unloading.

Kevin Noertker (00:48:58):
And then within two minutes, you're back up in the air.

Kevin Noertker (00:49:01):
So that exists as well.

Kevin Noertker (00:49:03):
But in those cases, you're not really thinking about charging.

Silas Mähner (00:49:06):
Yeah.

Silas Mähner (00:49:07):
Okay.

Silas Mähner (00:49:07):
That makes a lot of sense.

Silas Mähner (00:49:08):
Well, I mean, this has been really great.

Silas Mähner (00:49:10):
I really appreciate all these things you've shared today.

Silas Mähner (00:49:12):
It's been a pretty fascinating episode for me.

Silas Mähner (00:49:14):
I would say just where kind of at the end of here, where can people reach you?

Silas Mähner (00:49:18):
What's your call to action for the audience?

Kevin Noertker (00:49:21):
Yeah.

Kevin Noertker (00:49:21):
So number one, you can always look us up, ampair.com.

Kevin Noertker (00:49:26):
and you can reach out.

Kevin Noertker (00:49:29):
You should definitely subscribe to our newsletter where you're going to be able to follow along.

Kevin Noertker (00:49:33):
We post a lot on LinkedIn right now, so you can follow along some exciting developments and news there.

Kevin Noertker (00:49:39):
Reach out to me directly if you're passionate about this industry.

Kevin Noertker (00:49:42):
If you want to learn more, either I or members of my team would be happy to chat with you.

Kevin Noertker (00:49:47):
As any entrepreneur,

Kevin Noertker (00:49:48):
we're raising capital and looking for partners and excited to bring our products to

Kevin Noertker (00:49:52):
parts of the world.

Kevin Noertker (00:49:53):
So if you know folks who'd be

Kevin Noertker (00:49:55):
excited about it definitely get us connected as well and if you happen to be

Kevin Noertker (00:49:59):
dropping in through los angeles hit me up and maybe we'll be able to show you the

Silas Mähner (00:50:03):
future of aviation firsthand nice i'm gonna have to you know accidentally be in los

Silas Mähner (00:50:08):
angeles at some point just to see this i can't wait um i also understand correct if

Silas Mähner (00:50:12):
i if i understand correctly you'll be at the some of your team will be at the

Silas Mähner (00:50:15):
oshkosh air show and in wisconsin this this summer

Kevin Noertker (00:50:18):
That's right.

Kevin Noertker (00:50:18):
Yeah, we're going to be in one of our partners is the US Air Force.

Kevin Noertker (00:50:22):
And so we're going to be helping them out with their booth and bringing some of our technology,

Kevin Noertker (00:50:26):
a flight demonstrator,

Kevin Noertker (00:50:28):
one of our aircraft models over.

Kevin Noertker (00:50:29):
So Oshkosh is always a great kind of coming together of the industry.

Kevin Noertker (00:50:34):
It will be fantastic.

Silas Mähner (00:50:36):
Yeah, I'm really excited.

Silas Mähner (00:50:38):
We had a tiny air show here in Wausau just recently.

Silas Mähner (00:50:41):
And I was telling my wife, this is nothing compared to the Oshkosh show.

Silas Mähner (00:50:45):
Just wait for that, right?

Silas Mähner (00:50:47):
That's true.

Silas Mähner (00:50:47):
So I'm very excited.

Silas Mähner (00:50:48):
But anyways, thanks so much for coming on, Kevin.

Silas Mähner (00:50:51):
It's a pleasure.

Silas Mähner (00:50:51):
And we're looking forward to what you guys continue to do.

Kevin Noertker (00:50:54):
Thanks for having me.

Silas Mähner (00:50:57):
Alright everybody, welcome to the takeaway section of the show.

Silas Mähner (00:51:00):
Super excited to have you here.

Silas Mähner (00:51:01):
Thanks for following all the way through.

Silas Mähner (00:51:03):
Today, I want to talk about first, Kevin's humility.

Silas Mähner (00:51:08):
It really, really stood out to me.

Silas Mähner (00:51:09):
I mean, the guy is building epic technology and is doing it super well.

Silas Mähner (00:51:15):
But he's very humble and down to earth.

Silas Mähner (00:51:16):
I mean, that was just really kind of inspiring for me being able to interview him.

Silas Mähner (00:51:21):
I don't know if you can quite tell it just through the recording, but kind of the energy on the call.

Silas Mähner (00:51:24):
That's very,

Silas Mähner (00:51:26):
very palpable that he's doing amazing things,

Silas Mähner (00:51:29):
but yet he has no kind of arrogance about him,

Silas Mähner (00:51:31):
at least not that I could tell.

Silas Mähner (00:51:33):
So that was really amazing.

Silas Mähner (00:51:34):
The second thing is in the same fashion that Jesse Henry from Heartland Industries,

Silas Mähner (00:51:40):
that's episode 184,

Silas Mähner (00:51:42):
mentioned,

Silas Mähner (00:51:44):
you need to peel back the layers of risk along the way so that the VCs are

Silas Mähner (00:51:48):
interested in continuing to invest.

Silas Mähner (00:51:50):
We're seeing this across the market broadly speaking right now.

Silas Mähner (00:51:53):
A lot of founders are not getting to their series A,

Silas Mähner (00:51:56):
B,

Silas Mähner (00:51:56):
and C rounds because they're not understanding the need to take a bite at a time

Silas Mähner (00:52:01):
and peel back the risk.

Silas Mähner (00:52:02):
So I just wanted to re-highlight that again.

Silas Mähner (00:52:04):
It's a very common theme.

Silas Mähner (00:52:06):
Third,

Silas Mähner (00:52:07):
his pragmatic approach to A,

Silas Mähner (00:52:10):
working with the incumbents so they are included,

Silas Mähner (00:52:13):
so that they're your friend,

Silas Mähner (00:52:14):
right?

Silas Mähner (00:52:14):
They're working with you.

Silas Mähner (00:52:16):
And then B,

Silas Mähner (00:52:17):
building a solution that does not require a huge change in the environment or

Silas Mähner (00:52:22):
rather the infrastructure around you.

Silas Mähner (00:52:25):
It allows adoption to happen sooner and to make an impact on the emissions faster.

Silas Mähner (00:52:32):
in the market currently.

Silas Mähner (00:52:34):
Not tomorrow, not once we do all these things in the grid.

Silas Mähner (00:52:36):
It's happening right away.

Silas Mähner (00:52:39):
And then you might have also noticed,

Silas Mähner (00:52:41):
there's kind of a 3.5 here,

Silas Mähner (00:52:43):
you might have also noticed that in that spot,

Silas Mähner (00:52:45):
he didn't stake the entire future on going hybrid.

Silas Mähner (00:52:50):
He's hoping to be the leader in fully electric propulsion as well,

Silas Mähner (00:52:54):
but he's starting with what he needs to make the moonshot a reality in his mind.

Silas Mähner (00:52:59):
I thought that was quite interesting because he's not just picking his horse and betting on it.

Silas Mähner (00:53:07):
He's admitting to himself,

Silas Mähner (00:53:08):
I have a lot more pain to go through to continue innovating in the future and

Silas Mähner (00:53:13):
building for a fully electric flight future.

Silas Mähner (00:53:16):
So that's just something that other founders can consider is that you can build for

Silas Mähner (00:53:20):
what works today with another future in mind as well because the incumbents,

Silas Mähner (00:53:26):
the big companies,

Silas Mähner (00:53:26):
are still not going to be typically the ones doing all the innovation.

Silas Mähner (00:53:30):
So you've got opportunity to do both.

Silas Mähner (00:53:32):
Just be pragmatic.

Silas Mähner (00:53:33):
If you want to make an impact, do something that's going to work today.

Silas Mähner (00:53:37):
With that, I thought this was an amazing episode.

Silas Mähner (00:53:39):
First time we've had electric aircraft as a discussion on a pod.

Silas Mähner (00:53:43):
So I'm quite excited about that.

Silas Mähner (00:53:44):
Super excited to take my brother to the air show this year.

Silas Mähner (00:53:47):
Big shout out actually to Ampere.

Silas Mähner (00:53:49):
They're going to be at the Oshkosh Air Show in Wisconsin.

Silas Mähner (00:53:52):
If you're not familiar, it's a huge air show.

Silas Mähner (00:53:54):
I think it's the biggest in the world actually.

Silas Mähner (00:53:56):
Happens in little old Wisconsin.

Silas Mähner (00:53:58):
They're going to be at the AF Works, that's A-F-W-E-R-X booth.

Silas Mähner (00:54:04):
So if you want to check them out, stop by, say hi to some of their team.

Silas Mähner (00:54:07):
But thank you guys so much for tuning in today.

Silas Mähner (00:54:09):
If you're not already, go give us a follow on YouTube, share with your friends.

Silas Mähner (00:54:13):
If there's any questions you really think I should have asked and I didn't,

Silas Mähner (00:54:16):
feel free to shoot me a message so I can kick myself later.

Silas Mähner (00:54:19):
And we will see you next time on Clean Techies.