Ep 141 - What is This Fresh Literary Genre Emerging Called Addiction Fiction?

Have you ever heard of Addiction Fiction? How about Sober Fiction? Will Thatcher, the author of Killing Hurt, had not either, and he wrote this entertaining novel, which is exactly that. Learn the why, and how, and hear Will's journey to writing 'Killing Hurt'. Let's get back to Will Thatcher.

#embracefamilyrecovery #recovery #addiction #addictionfiction #willthatcher #KillingHurt #addictionrecovery #addictionawareness #addictiontreatment #addictions #familyrecovery #familyrecoverycoach #familyrecoverycoaching #familyaddiction #familyaddictionrecovery #recoverysupport #recoverysupportgroup #recoverysupportservices #womenpodcaster #podcast #addictionpodcast #recoverypodcast #recoverystories #recoverycommunity #YouTubechannel

Transcript

00:02

You’re listening to the Embrace Family Recovery Podcast a place for real conversations with people who love someone with the disease of addiction. Now here is your host, Margaret Swift Thompson.

Intro:  Welcome back to the Embrace Family Recovery Podcast! Today I continue my conversation with Will Thatcher. In this episode Will shares with us the journey of writing Killing Hurt his first ever addiction fiction novel that will resonate with any of you in recovery from a substance use disorder or as a family member. It was quite an adventure to read Killing Hurt.

Let’s get back to Will.

The Embrace Family Recovery Podcast

Margaret  01:27

Along the trajectory of gathering this great information and sharing your story and journaling, you decided one day, I’m going to write a book. I’m going to write a novel about a guy or a couple of guys in recovery, and I’m going to include recovery in the story?

Will Thatcher  01:44

So, I have heard, I don’t know, let’s make up a number and say 150, great YouTube qualifications. I’ve heard 1000s of great stories in the rooms. I’ve read a number of really good memoirs, all the true stuff, and it’s all awesome. And of course, we’ve all seen dozens of, or at least aware of dozens of movies that have sober characters and sober themes, there just seemed like a gap in the universe for like, what I’m interested in, which is fiction. And so, I started thinking about that. And I was like, what happened actually, is my sponsor, started taking acting classes, like a year ago. 

Margaret  02:30

That’s awesome. 

Will Thatcher  02:31

We’re sitting down at the diner after the meeting, he’s telling us about, gosh, I’m so jealous that he’s got this creative outlet. And he goes, and he does this thing. And he didn’t have any expectations for it. He just, you know, he’s doing it for fun. Wait a minute I have a thing that I do. I could just do that. And literally, I started like that night. I was like, why not just start putting it together? And what I like about it is that when you’re writing addiction fiction, 

Margaret:  yeah, 

Will Thatcher:  Sober fiction. You’re not beholden to real life. You know what I mean? Like, you don’t have the limitations of timelines and inconsistencies and stories, you can just kind of write what you want to write. You can take the themes and take the ideas and put the characters into situations and you can, you know, tell the story professionally, and kind of condense it down and make it a nice tidy package, which you don’t get in real life. 

Margaret:  No, not very often. 

Will Thatcher:  Yeah. And so, I started reading, I started trying to find other books in the space. And I found a couple that I really liked. I was like, yes, this is what I want to do. So that was how I got started with it. 

Margaret  03:44

And your book is called Killing hurt. So, the title came before, during after, like, how did that all come to be? Because the title is interesting. And then of course, the story is, explains it a little more.

Will Thatcher  03:57

Yeah, the title actually came like, toward the end, 

Margaret:  Okay. 

Will Thatcher:  And then I actually went back and rewrote part of the book to fit the title. 

Margaret:  Okay, 

Will Thatcher:  because I so liked the idea of the title, and how it could be a part of the story, but wasn’t really at that point. 

Margaret:  Okay. 

Will Thatcher:  So not obviously, the usual but the idea of it came to me as a theme. And then I went and sort of installed it, which was fairly easy to do, because it was already inherent in the story, just to make it a much more relevant title.

Margaret  04:36

So, I don’t want to tell people about the book because I don’t want to give it away you probably have a much better synopsis that sells it without giving away the interesting parts that come along in it. So go ahead and tell everybody about Killing Hurt so they know what to look for in the story.

Will Thatcher  04:50

Well, I think for the purposes of our conversation, I think it’s very much a family story, right? It’s a multi-generational addictive dysfunctional family. And this story plays itself out over the three generations. But the main storyline is the father Troy, who’s a retired cop, he sort of finds himself in one of these stages of life where it’s sort of a natural turning point for him in almost every way. His daughters have gone off to school, he’s retired from his profession, his long-term relationship just ended. He’s just kind of kind of a clean slate. And he’s about four years sober. At that point, he goes on a surf trip with a couple of sober friends. And they plan to surf great waves and go to AA meetings. 

Margaret:  Right? 

Will Thatcher:  That’s the plan, right? And I’ve done this, this is my own experience as well.

Margaret  05:45

I wonder it I had to, I was gonna ask, and I’m like, do I ask but like, the surf piece has to be a part of your story in some way or no? 

Will Thatcher:  Totally. 

Margaret:  Okay. Because I couldn’t write about surfing to save my life, because I’ve never done it. So I assumed you were in there somewhere.

Will Thatcher  06:01

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, it’s funny you say that, because a couple of my friends were like, Oh, you wrote a book about yourself? A sober guy who’s surf? So I’m like, really? Not at all. This guy’s not like me.

Margaret  06:11

Well, that’s good to know. Because some of what I read, I would hope you hadn’t gone through it, that was a lot.

Will Thatcher  06:15

No, no, no, no. So anyway, while he’s on this trip, obviously, they meet lots of different people, different types of personalities, and characters, like you always do in an Alcoholics Anonymous room. And things go sideways, 

Margaret:  good word. 

Will Thatcher:  And he gets hooked up with a sponsor there, who you sort of buys into this guy’s vibe, plenty of red flags, that he shouldn’t buy into this guy’s vibe. But again, it’s a multi-generational addiction story. So, he’s got his daddy issues. And that sort of plays itself out in this relationship. And he ends up falling for it, I guess you would say, again, with this sponsor, and like you said, not to give too much away, but things get pretty crazy. 

Margaret:  Mm hmm.

Will Thatcher:  And the way that I wanted to set it up, the main sort of point of it was that he can’t literally survive his situation, he can’t get out of Central America, and live unless or until he deals with his resentments. And all this stuff that he hasn’t dealt with yet that he hasn’t processed through in his program. So he went through the steps, he did his fourth and fifth step what he skipped a bunch of stuff. And so, he left, work on done, and it almost kills him. This is a story that I’ve heard many times, and I wanted it to play out in a very vivid way for this guy. And so, he does, he soars through his resentments. And I guess I’ll spoil the end and say he survives. And like I said, it is a family story. So, at the end, the family dynamic in all three generations is changed. Yeah, so that’s the gist of it. I’m not sure I did a very good job of explaining that. 

Margaret  08:05

No, you did. And it’s interesting, because I think in reading it, I was so compelled by his story. That I don’t know that I fully got the family piece. I did definitely get it at the end. But it was interesting like to hear you say it now puts in some slots. I think what I took from it with along the lines of you sharing that was what an incredible strong program, your character worked. I mean, he was invested in his recovery. And in recovery, we sometimes meet people who aren’t what they say they are. And we have to discern that truth, which is hard, because we can get really vulnerable, for lack of a better word. And so, I thought that was an interesting twist that you had in there because I think that is fortuitous. For some of us, we can end up connecting with someone who we think is who we need, but yet turns out not to be but in the big picture of our higher power actually might have been what we needed. 

Will Thatcher  09:03

Totally. That’s a big theme for me is you know, not to put anybody on pedestals. In recovery. We’re all drunks. AA is a wonderful place, recommend it to anybody, but it is not always a hotbed of mental health. And so, you’re not in there looking for saviors. You’re in there looking for a program. 

Margaret:  Right?

Will Thatcher:  The solution is perfect. Program is perfect. Those people should direct you to the program direct you to your higher power, but don’t start relying on the individuals.

Margaret  09:39

No, I think that’s a valid, very good point. I think the other thing is there are people out there who when they hear you say it’s a group of drunks like Oh, that’s such a derogatory word. 

Will Thatcher:  Oh, really?

Margaret:  Oh yeah. So, I’m curious if you’d speak to that. Like it is not a derogatory word for you. Obviously, it’s what?

Will Thatcher  09:55

No, it’s really not. I’m sorry if people would actually interpret it that way, that’s definitely not the way I intended. I actually, I say that almost affectionately. When I say a group of drunks, that’s one of the ways that we shorten the word God actually is group of drugs. So, I don’t mean that in a negative way at all.

Margaret  10:14

I think that you saying that is very important, because again, the way I frame it, because I hear this quite a bit from lots of different people, whether it be clinicians, whether it be professionals in the field, whether it be people who are not supportive of or are supportive of, is, it’s what we class ourselves as that matters. It’s not what others classes as. I would never even think to call someone that. But I would totally respect if someone called themselves that because that is their journey. It’s like coming into a room and people say, why do I hear people say, I’m Margaret, and I’m an addict. That’s so negative or derogatory. For me, it isn’t. It’s that reminder that if I forget that piece of who I am, I’m in trouble.

Will Thatcher  10:57

Yeah, I mean, that’s an important fact. So, if you take that as a negative, it’s probably gonna be a problem for you.

Margaret  11:03

Yeah. No, I appreciate it. I appreciate you saying that. And I also believe in good orderly direction for God. So, we have whatever phrase we say, you know, I’m not a drunk, there by the grace of a higher power, because I’m an equal opportunity addict. It was a control factor for me food didn’t have that effect, please. It absolutely did. But at the time, I could justify it as being different my disease masterfully wove the story that I was somehow different than an IV user or an alcoholic, because it was a socially acceptable thing to do.

Will Thatcher  11:34

Well, I think a lot of our diseases tell us that we’re different. I think that that’s probably a common theme, right?

Margaret  11:40

It is, keeps us there, right keeps us stuck.

Will Thatcher  11:43

Exactly.

11:44

This podcast is made possible by listeners like you.

Bumper:  I’m excited I get to come back to Wisconsin. I will be the keynote speaker which is truly a humbling honor and a facilitator at the Spiritual Program Retreat’s 3rd  Family Program Retreat .It’s taking place at Camp Wapogasset in Amery Wisconsin from Friday April 12th to Sunday April 14th  

Are you presently in a relationship that has felt the effects of addiction? 

Has your past been affected by a person with the disease of addiction? 

Are you seeking a deeper understanding, a community of support, tools to make recovery more concrete? 

If the disease of addiction has been a family member this is the retreat for you. Sign up soon this in person experience is not one to be missed and spots are filling up! Find the link in my show notes and learn more about the retreat and how to register to attend and join us at this beautiful camp.

12:44

You’re listening to the Embrace Family Recovery Podcast. Can you relate to what you’re hearing? Never missed a show by hitting the subscribe button. Now back to the show.

Margaret  12:56

So how long did it take you to write Killing Hurt?

Will Thatcher  12:59

The first draft of it was actually written pretty quickly, I went through it and about three months, it was really the rewriting and the editing there took about twice as long as that I had written some pretty like long form, almost like essays, you know about the characters that in one way, shape or form made it into the book. And you know, when editors read that, they were like, okay, really good. Like, it’s really interesting, but you can’t have that a novel. Right? And, you know, I’m a big reader, I know that. So, there was a lot of undoing of the telling about the characters and rewriting as you know, story. Okay, and showing about the characters that took a long time to process.

Margaret  13:46

What was the most challenging part? Was that it? Or was it actually publishing it? What was the hardest part for you?

Will Thatcher  13:52

The hardest part was really getting rid of stuff, to be honest with you, because I got very attached to a lot of this. Things that I thought were great, and meaningful and important. And an editor goes get rid of all that. That doesn’t help the story. It’s, besides the point. I’m like, besides the point, this is the whole reason, you know, for you know, and I had other people who were friends of mine read it, who are in the program, who would tell me that there’s too much AA in there, you know, and say you have to take into account the fact that not everybody who reads this book is going to be an alcoholic, is going to be in recovery. And so again, just kind of very painful to take some of that out because it’s so important to me. So that was really the hardest part, was the paring it down to what’s actually in there and I probably have two more books full of stuff.

Margaret  14:50

Good. Something to look forward to.

Will Thatcher  14:53

Yeah, I mean, it’s just like sitting there.

Margaret  14:55

I am very curious to see where his story goes. Especially with his family. I’m hoping that’s coming in your next installment.

Will Thatcher  15:04

You know, it’s actually not 

Okay. 

Unfortunately. Sorry. No.

Margaret  15:09

it can be in the future.

Will Thatcher  15:10

Yeah, exactly. It’s book is a totally different set of characters, different setting totally different story, to addiction fiction, also to a group of drunks, who are going through a equally crazy situation. This is in New York, where I live. But then actually the third book that the two sets of characters come together.

Okay. 

So, I guess somewhere in the future, you’ll see Troy again.

Margaret  15:38

So, this next one will not include Troy, it will be another group of friends or people in recovery together, but in the city of New York

Will Thatcher  15:45

Well, a little bit in the city, mostly on Long Island where I live. 

Margaret  15:49

Okay That’s where you live. All right. 

Yeah. 

So did you have your family read? Killing hurt before it was published after it was published? Like, how did that happen?

Will Thatcher  15:58

They read it after it was published, I wanted it to be as good as possible. I wanted them to be proud of it. My ego stepped in and said, you know, if they’re gonna read this, and I hope they will, then I want it to at least be good. So, I need some professional help and polish it up and get the editors in there. Got it. At the end of it, get all the commas in the right spots and whatnot,

Margaret  16:21

Did you have to go through the adjustment of not having two spaces behind a period?

Will Thatcher  16:24

I’m a big two space person. So yeah, that’s a learning curve.

Margaret  16:29

That’s a learning curve for those of us who are to space. My kids are like, What? What? Yeah,

Will Thatcher  16:34

You know what, I have 50 years, Margaret, as a two space after a period guy. And I did manage actually, in the editing of this book to finally break that habit. 

Good for you. 

Thank you for acknowledging how hard that was. 

Margaret  16:47

Big learning curve. I’m with you. Oh, my gosh, all my stuff. I have to constantly remember no, no, no one space Margaret, one space. I’m like, when did that change?

Will Thatcher  16:56

I’m not okay with that. 

Margaret  16:58

No it’s a big adjustment. You know, you’re not okay with the two spaces. But you’re okay with being sober, right? Like all the lifting you had to do to get sober. But the two spaces now that’s a little bit much.

Will Thatcher  17:06

A little bit of resentment, I have to have to work through that. Right.

Margaret  17:10

I appreciate that. That’s great.

Will Thatcher  17:12

Do a fourth step on that.

Margaret  17:13

Who would be your ideal audience, like when you thought about writing this, you thought about it, because obviously, it’s a passion of yours, fiction, you’re interested. And it ties together your recovery, what you’re visibly passionate about. So, who’s your niche, who’s your perfect audience doesn’t matter? 

Will Thatcher  17:30

I think it does matter to me. I mean, I have who I’m writing for, you know, if anybody else also enjoys it, all the better. But to me, I’m writing for people who are in recovery. I think anybody who has been through any of the programs that you mentioned, a smart recovery, I’m a big fan of Buddhist recovery, 

Refuge 

God and love to, you know, refuge back in the day. And you know, the iterations that have followed that. I think anybody who’s in those programs is who I’m writing for, I think that that’s who this will resonate with that to identify with the characters, and we’ll get the most out of it.

Margaret  18:07

So, I’m going to put in a plug for the family side, I think the family side can get a lot out of it. Now, sure, some of it might be way far out of their reality or purview of norm. But I think it would give family and introduction to the healing, the language, the fact that growth and recovery is ongoing. Why the value in our loved ones having their communities. So, I think you’ve got an audience there, too. 

Will Thatcher  18:38

Yeah, I totally agree with you. And when I thought about just sort of the commercial side of this, like how big is the audience that you’re writing for literally. I did, in my mind include friends and family of people in recovery. Because I don’t know if that person necessarily would sit down and listen to the same sandy beach talk that I listened to on YouTube, and think that it is brilliant, and insightful, and interesting, and useful, as I think I don’t know if they’d be able to sift through that. But I do think that they could enjoy this and pull away from it. Like you said, a lot of the experience of going through recovery.

Margaret  19:16

You know, if you’re in a partnership, or a family system, where someone’s in recovery, and they live their recovery out loud around you, but you’re not in your own recovery. Some of it can sound like a foreign language, but then when you see it in a written form and realize, I’m not talking the big book, but I’m talking about the written form of a novel. You can see how a person can live their life fully and recovery and have a good time and recovery face challenges through recovery. Like there’s a lot of hope in that and a lot of awareness of recovery is a part of every aspect of our life and the value in it.

Will Thatcher  19:49

Absolutely, especially if it’s not told as strictly a recovery story, if it’s just a good book, and it’s entertaining. And if you’re just a fan of that genre of things, And then you should be able to enjoy it. And then if you have a family member and recovery, like you said, you have the benefit of that as well.

Margaret  20:08

There were some things Troy went through that I’m like, wow, like, I don’t think I could a survive that. And I thought it must be in your mind as the writer that the ability to survive was absolutely leaning into the principles of recovery in those darkest moments.

Will Thatcher  20:26

Exactly. I mean, that was sort of the concept there is take you to your lowest possible point, whatever you think, is your lowest point, there’s always a trapdoor below that, that’ll take you to a lower one. And so, when you get there, how strong is your recovery now? 

Yeah. 

And to your point, he uses his toolkit to make it through that.

Margaret  20:48

I think the other thing that was beautifully portrayed in the book is the power of community, what came through loud and clear was the power of not being in isolation, tapping into recovery and community, but also the tools work if you are in isolation, does that make sense? Like the whole? We of program being what makes it work?

Will Thatcher  21:11

Yeah. Because at one point, we is not available to him. Right, in a really terrible way. So, what you then have as the We is me and my higher power? Yeah, there’s still a We that he can lean on at that point. Yeah.

Margaret  21:25

And also, the camaraderie and the healing, you know, because families struggle. And I don’t know if you experienced this in your family, but family that often struggle in early recovery when their loved one is in meetings, and MIA, if you like, still, but in recovery meetings, and it feels the same to them, even though you may be changing and coming back differently, it takes a while for that trust to set in. And so, what I liked about the book, was this the window of can I take a breath as a partner, or as a parent? Or as an adult child? Can I take a breath and go, I don’t have to be on duty, I can trust that the person I love has people who are there for them. Because you show that powerfully the way the network of recovery and the people in Troy’s recovery step in for him when needed. 

Will Thatcher  22:16

Yeah, I mean, you know, my experience, which I tried to instill into the book was, the more that I invested into the program, the more I got back, right, it’s like really like anything else in life. But it was the same for the relationships in the rooms. And I was never, I shouldn’t say never. But for the last five or six years of my drinking, I was not a friend. 

Right? 

To many people, you know, I had people I hung out with, but my relationships were transactional. 

Yep. 

And when I got into recovery, and my relationships became one, my life depended on those relationships. Obviously, I invested in them differently that way. And I was much more honest with people, and I had real conversations with people and them with me, and that then becomes, for me, my extended family, right? And I don’t have a problem understanding why the core family would find that annoying or threatening. But the flip side of that, to your point is, at least you’re not on the hook for this guy the whole time. He’s got a support system. He’s got people who, at least for this thing, know what they’re doing. And I can trust him with them. When he’s with them, nothing terrible is going to happen. So I think that’s an interesting dynamic.

Margaret  23:35

Yeah, yeah. And the insecurity of a family member also could be that I no longer have the role I play which I was familiar with what’s kept me from my feelings. So that’s a whole nother level.

Will Thatcher  23:47

Yeah, that’s the whole other side of it. Absolutely. 

Margaret  23:51

It is. The other thing is to understand that, for family, it feels like I’ve been competing with something I couldn’t compete with for a long time. And so, I think that your addiction fiction offers like taking away that shroud of secrecy and a little bit more knowing of why this is so valuable and not to be threatened but to be grateful for and to embrace realizing that when your loved one goes into recovery, which is what you want more than anything in the world. It’s going to feel like they go away again in a ways but they will come back to you tenfold through the work they do.

Outro:  Join us again next week where we conclude the conversation. Will will dive deeper into his own story of how he wrote Killing Hurt, and we also discuss future projects coming up for him. It’s powerful to see how recovery impacts very many areas of our life, all of them you were willing to do the work.

I want to thank my guest for their courage and vulnerability and sharing parts of their story. Please find resources on my website, 

embracefamilyrecovery.com

This is Margaret Swift Thompson. Until next time, please take care of you!