Will Thatcher 00:02
You’re listening to the Embrace Family Recovery Podcast, a place for real conversations with people who love someone with the disease of addiction. Now here is your host, Margaret Swift Thompson.
Intro: Welcome back to our final episode with Will Thatcher the author of the addiction fiction novel Killing Hurt. In this final episode we will discuss life expectations, self-judgment, and the power of other people as mirrors in our recovery. Will shares more about writing Killing Hurt and what’s coming next for him as author.
The Embrace Family Recovery Podcast.
Will Thatcher: Nothing is what we think it’s going to be right? We have this fantasy, you know, once dad gets sober, everything’s going to be great. And it just doesn’t work that way. That’s not the way life is. One of the themes that I enjoyed playing with in the book was Troy is so sure of his judgments all the time. He’s so sure of his thinking, because he’s sober and he’s got a program and everything. He’s wrong all the time. Everywhere he goes, he’s pretty much wrong. And so, life doesn’t go the way the story in our head tells us it’s going to go.
Margaret 02:10
Well, and I think the challenge in that Will that I speak to and I believe in is the story in my head, I have to discern which is really freakin hard to do. Because it’s in my own voice of whether the story comes from me, my addiction, my codependency, or my higher power. That’s a messy bunch.
Will Thatcher 02:32
Absolutely. And they’re all convincing.
Margaret 02:34
Very much so and so that’s why the beauty of getting back full circle to what got you to get into the recovery community and in sitting hearing stories was, I see my meetings and stories of people in recovery, even talking to you, as mirrors to the window with inwards to see pieces of me that I haven’t noticed, haven’t acknowledged.
Will Thatcher 02:53
Yeah, that that’s such a good point. Because that’s, to me, that’s how I know it’s truth. That’s how I know what’s true when I hear it said by somebody else. And it strikes a chord with me. And I’m like, okay, that’s, that’s real, that’s a real thing. You know, I can, I can grab onto that and say that that’s something I can construct something around. Because if it’s just up here, between the ears, it’s 50/50, at best. That’s a real thing,
Margaret 03:18
Right? And for the families out there, that’s the imperative piece of having the community of recovery, whether we’re on the family side of the coin, or the disease side of the coin, as a person in recovery with addiction. We need the communities for those mirrors, we need the people in our lives who can help us discern through all the noise to the truth of what’s healthy for us when we have been so convinced by what’s in our head before.
Will Thatcher 03:42
Absolutely. And you know, people talk about the spirituality of the program, versus the fellowship of the program, you know, and some people say, oh, well, I don’t, not so much a spirituality person. I’m more like sober on the fellowship. To me, they’re the same thing. Because God speaks to me through other people. I don’t hear God’s voice. I’m not lucky enough to have God talk directly to me. You know, I hear that through my friends.
Margaret: Right.
Will Thatcher: And through strangers. Yeah. And sometimes to people I can’t stand.
Margaret 04:13
Yes. Often. Often, In my journey.
Will Thatcher 04:16
Absolutely. I just, you know, so it’s my job just to listen, to try to shut off the committee, you know, in my head, and sit down and just take in the messages and process them and let them wash over me. And like they say in AA, take what you need and leave the rest.
Margaret 04:34
Yeah, it’s similar to me. Will, mine is my higher power shows up in skin and my job is stay open who that could be. And I think you’re right, and if I’m in my head and in all those people, things influencing me and I’m not in the moment then I will miss the messenger.
Will Thatcher 04:52
Absolutely. Because like I said, I think I know and I’m often wrong.
Margaret 04:58
So, what next Whenever people have some time in the dark of winter, or in the spring or the summer, they can have a great read to keep them distracted and also entertained, but also a learning piece about it, which I think is beautiful about your book. So where can people find Killing Hurt?
Will Thatcher 05:13
Well, really pretty much anywhere that they sell books online at least. So, it seems like everybody’s on Amazon these days. So certainly, can get it there. But really, any online bookstore will sell the paperback or the ebook.
Margaret 05:26
Okay! And what’s next? Have you got a new one coming out? And can we have a little sneak peek of I know, you’ve talked about it being in Long Island, New York, but what can you tell us?
Will Thatcher 05:36
Yeah, so the next one is a book called The Sponsor.
Margaret 05:40
Oh, you named it already. It’s really in production.
Will Thatcher 05:43
This one’s had a title from jump. This is a guy who had to try to figure out how to summarize this without giving it all away.
Margaret 05:51
But this is good practice, because you’re gonna be doing it a lot coming.
Will Thatcher 05:54
Exactly. I appreciate that. So, The Sponsor is about a guy who has a group of sponsors, as you might have guessed, and none of them do what he tells them to do. You know, nobody takes his suggestions. And he’s, you know, running a very successful, significant size business. And he has a lot of stress coming from that. And he has significant challenges at home. And he’s got these sponsees that drive him crazy. And he’s trying to control all of this, right. And the basic concept of the book is that some things happen, as is typical on my books that are insane, violent, and crazy. And
Margaret 06:36
I can attest to that. What happened to Troy was out of my world of expectations, so yes.
Will Thatcher 06:43
So that all plays itself out. And he reaches, you know, what I think of as a bottom in sobriety. So, he realizes ultimately, that he’s been trying to control all these things, that he has no control over these things. And that’s the, that’s the underlying concept of the book.
Margaret 07:04
Awesome. Sounds great. And I want to say that the extreme that happened in the book with with Killing Hurt, and Troy, made it the fiction piece, right, like, so for me, it was like, that’s the beauty of it, there was definitely the recovery theme, there was definitely the messages, and the family stuff. But there was the, because I like a good thriller. I like a good adventure book, I like a good, like, who done it and what’s going to happen next, and you kept me interested, because I did want to know what would happen with Troy, and even the stuff that seemed extreme, made it entertaining and interesting.
So, you did a beautiful job of keeping my interest. And I recommend the book, I think that it’s brilliantly done, I think you did a beautiful job of weaving all the worlds together that you obviously have some experience with, and maybe some that are way out there, and just fiction, from all your listening and reading. But I appreciate it. And I appreciate that you’re speaking through your books to a genre that’s possibly underserved, you know, to give people the chance to hear about recovery in a different way is beautiful, I think anything, anything that gets the message out there of the value of recovery, and that it’s a program, you put $2 or $5, in a basket for and you get this incredible, incredible set of tools and support system. Nothing has come close to showing me that ever, anywhere else in the world. And I love that you put that out there in fiction.
Will Thatcher 08:30
I agree, it’s I think that they should teach 12 steps in, you know, fifth grade, I think everybody could benefit from having this in their lives. So, if this does anything in that, in that direction to expose it to a wider audience, then I consider that to be an honor, you know, to carry that torch. And, you know, I like I said before, I not just geeked up on my own books, I love this space. I love addiction fiction as a whole. And so, this is the for the writing part of my life. This is where I’m going to put a flag in the ground, and hopefully, myself and some other people can make this a more well established genre.
Margaret 09:07
I love that. I wish you nothing but the best with that. I hope that through putting it out there on the podcasts and that you do more of these. So, people know it’s out there. It’s great. I think that even from the standpoint of sending a couple of your books to different treatment centers for people to read on the units, you know, because they have downtime, and they do read novels, you know, there’s lots of ways you can get your stuff in front of people in the program. I also want to say out loud because I don’t think we said it at the beginning on the recording that I respect tremendously, that you’re adhering to the anonymity of the program by having a pen name and keeping that and I will honor that and when this goes out that you know I don’t remember your name that popped up when you signed on. Thank you for doing that.
09:51
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10:50
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Margaret 11:01
I speak openly about my recovery, a lot of people do, which I think is putting a face on recovery, and that’s valuable. But I also respect that the way you’re doing it, I would think it gives you a lot of freedom to having a pen name versus your own name to just go for it.
Will Thatcher 11:14
It does, there are a couple of different benefits of that I have no issues with people who don’t, you know, maintain their anonymity, I think people can like yourself do a tremendous amount of good in the world. But for me, the thinking was that I’m primarily entertaining people, like nobody’s getting sober from reading my books, so to me that necessitates a little bit of a higher level of humility. At least that’s what the conversations with my sponsor ultimately boil down to.
Margaret 11:44
Well, and that’s the thing Will that I would say is clear in every part of our conversation is, I have no doubt you went to your sponsor before doing this and how you’re going to do it, you went to your sponsor around, or sponsors or fellows in the program around writing, and I just, I know people who are struggling to embrace the format of recovery, would find that like, shocking. I remember when I first got into my recovery program, bless my father, I inherited many of his genes around control, said you let someone tell you what you can and cannot do on a daily basis. And I went, Yeah, yeah, I do. Because when I was running the show, it was a complete mess. So, this is what I do. So, I get the resistance, but I value hearing from people who live it, and share it. And I appreciate you for that.
Will Thatcher 12:37
Thank you. I appreciate, I get it also. But you know, my life depends on it. So, you know, I’m gonna do what I have to do to stay alive.
Margaret 12:44
And to your point, though, Will your life depends on it? Mine does, too. However, people would say really, in writing, how does your life depend on it? And I think that’s the naivety of understanding what recovery really is about?
Will Thatcher: Exactly.
Margaret: So, keep doing what you’re doing, keep living your recovery out loud, and also putting it on paper and addiction fiction. I love that term. I don’t know that I was aware of that term. And I think that it’s a genre that’s much needed for everybody. Your comment earlier about I would love this to be taught in all schools 12 step recovery, I have heard that I worked in the family program for decades. And I That’s why I stay in family work. I just adore watching the light bulbs go on for families, when they get their support. It’s like so powerful. And they would say to me, why are these programs not taught in schools? Why couldn’t our whole world live under these principles? We would be a different world. And you know, I’m sold. I agree. However, there’s a lot of people that don’t understand that yet. So, any little glimmer in you offer through your books is great.
Will Thatcher 13:50
I’ll take it. If that’s the end result of this, I’d be very happy with that.
Margaret 13:54
What would your dream be if this? You know you did it as a passion? Obviously, this is your creative outlet. But like, what would you do you have? As my daughter says, have you manifested a dream or a goal with your book?
Will Thatcher 14:05
I haven’t. I’ve worked hard to make it successful. One of the things that I’ve learned is that marketing a book is harder than writing a book to bass disappointment. conversations like this are obviously very enjoyable. But there’s a lot of you know, grind behind it, especially when you self-publish.
Margaret: Yeah.
Will Thatcher: There’s not a publishing company that’s spending money to get you in front of people. So, I think it’s going to take a good couple of years to build an audience for Will Thatcher. And I’m fine with that, you know, I’ve got nothing better to do. I’m enjoying it thoroughly. And so, I’m just gonna keep grinding away at it. And maybe I should be more deliberate about my manifesting more specific anyway.
Margaret 14:53
Yes and no, I think being realist and recognizing the grind, you know, I think is very different and similar. podcasting. When I started, it was one person listened. I’m grateful to go over 20,000 We just hit. And that’s just remarkable to me. And I was given a tip that I will share with you for what it’s worth when I started the journey, and I know you’ve been at it for a while. One person said to me very wisely, if you think about everybody who downloads being in a room, listening to you, that’s a massive audience. Right? Same with reading is everybody who reads this, if you put them in a physical space, is a big deal.
Will Thatcher: It’s a lot of people.
Margaret: Yeah, yeah. And also, I think the other piece of it is a philosophy that’s kept me going, in all my work is if one person enjoys it, values, it walks away with a tip. My job is done.
Will Thatcher 15:54
Yeah, I completely relate to that. Like I said earlier, the feedback that I’ve gotten already from not a huge number of people or like a, like a handful of people, was really meaningful to me. And so, if I can get a little bit more of that on a regular basis,
Margaret: You bet
Will Thatcher: that’ll sustain me through
Margaret: You bet.
Outro: Thank you Will Thatcher for taking this creative step and combining his exposure to the disease of addiction and his recovery with his passion for writing. The book is truly a journey and an adventure that will offer people who may not have had personal exposure to what the disease looks like and what recovery entails a window in. And for those of us living in recovery it’s an adventure of how life on life terms continues in the ride of these novel characters. Come back next week when we get to meet another author who has shared in different ways through writing their recovery journey.
Margaret 16:46
I want to thank my guest for their courage and vulnerability in sharing parts of their story. Please find resources on my website:
embracefamilyrecovery.com
This is Margaret Swift Thompson.
Until next time, please take care of you!