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You’re listening to the Embrace Family Recovery Podcast a place for real conversations with people who love someone with the disease of addiction. Now here is your host, Margaret Swift Thompson.
Intro: Welcome back! Today I’m sharing the final part of Jorja Jamison’s story with you. In today’s episode we discussed the roots of Jorja’s addiction, how her addiction changed over the years, and the fear she’s experienced as a professional in the field. Let’s rejoin Jorja.
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The Embrace Family Recovery Podcast
Margaret 01:44
I loved your description of the three jobs as a counselor, I wrote them down because I thought they were so simplistic, but so profound and so wonderful. And I find it important to share this because a lot of people seeking help, don’t know, to interview to ask questions to, you know, to get the right fit. So, you wrote, see them, accept them, and partner with them walk alongside them to reach their goal. That’s beautiful. And so, on point. Do you feel that that was always an awareness you had in your teaching? Has that been changed by your own journey of therapy and recovery?
Jorja Jamison 02:26
I think it is. Talk about another paradox of recovery I could see so well what other people needed to recover but couldn’t do it myself. So, the see people, see, you know, of all parts of them. See the parts they can’t see, see the parts, they keep hidden, all of it, see the whole person and then accept them. And by accept them, you have to let go as a therapist of any desire that they be any different. You can’t think that they need to be, oh, they should be doing this. Or if only did that, like all of that you have to just completely let go and completely accept, this is exactly who they are, doing exactly what they need to be doing right now. And that they are on their own journey. And that, who the hell am I to think I know what they need. And that I know, you know more than this person who’s living their life. And then once you get there, that opens the gate that you can truly join them and say, hey, where do you want to go how you know, like, I can use my tools and my skills to help you get there. This is terrain that I’m pretty familiar with. I know all the trails and all the shortcuts, all that sort of stuff. But you have to set the goal of you know, where where’s the destination.
Margaret 03:47
If I was not at the beginning of that conversation, that little piece that we just did, and I close my eyes, wouldn’t that be something for all parents of people with the disease of addiction to hear and internalize to all partners, all children, all family members, if we could learn those three things in recovery as family and effective loved ones, through our own recovery, we would be 10 steps ahead of where we are today.
Jorja Jamison 04:15
I have to do this every single semester with students. Some student comes in, and one of their clients has had to return to use. And they think they failed, that they’ve done something wrong or that you know, to not only let them know that’s not happening, but that this person might have needed that return to use as part of their recovery and that we shouldn’t keep them from that if that’s what they needed. If there was something they were going to learn by that particular use episode that was going to support and shore up lifelong recovery. Maybe they needed that, but to truly accept the limitations of you know, sort of my role and who I am and what I can and can’t do.
Margaret 05:01
And families the same.
Jorja Jamison: Exactly.
Margaret: It’s a lot of parallels which is really helpful. I knew that there would be when I was reading your book and just thinking about having this conversation. Are you willing to talk about Beulah? Because that really touched me and I would love you to share your what you want to know about people. Am I saying the name right, BYOLAA?
Jorja Jamison 05:24
BYOLAA. BYOLAA actually was the first chapter I wrote in the whole book. That was the story that over the second night, sat down and opened a Word document that was the first thing that I laid down, because it was so powerful for me. And the story of BYOLAA when I was you know, in my food addiction, I wanted to personify my ugly fat belly. And so, I just thought what the most disgusting ugliest name in the world and it is BYOLAA, like BYOLAA. And so, you know, my ugly body, my ugly need for food all of it became about BYOLAA. BYOLAA wants this, BYOLAA needs that or stupid BYOLAA, you know, all this, this sort of just the sort of stuff. And in the course of all the work that I did with Jenny, she helped me understand that a big part of recovery was about stopping the seeking of love and approval and affection from everyone else and starting to supply it to yourself. And I, you know, really took that message to heart. And so, I was like, what’s the mantra out of that? And it was Bring Your Own Love, Acceptance and Approval, Bring Your Own Love Acceptance and Approval? And then I was just like, what’s the acronym there? What does that stand for? Bring Your Own Love Acceptance and Approval. B. Y. O. L.A.A. What would that sound like if we strung those letters together? BYOLAA and it was just BYOLAA. BYOLAA is you know, that’s what addiction and recovery is. So BYOLAA went from this, you know, monster who had control of me, to just this, you know, curious little sensitive kid who just wanted me to take care of her.
Margaret 07:22
Really resonate with that. And I think it’s so empowering and beautiful and spiritual, that you were able to come up with that and change that. The feed me visual of that show, I can’t even think of the name of it. I’m so what is this? What is the show where the the plant is always yelling feed me.
Jorja Jamison 07:45
Oh, Seymour? The Yeah.
Margaret 07:47
That’s what I visually get. And just to see how you were able to reframe that for your ongoing recovery. And I assume, and I’m shouldn’t so I’m going to ask that BYOLAA shows up in different forms still?
Jorja Jamison 08:05
Which one?
Margaret: The first one?
Jorja Jamison: That Oh, yeah, yeah, that’s sort of hardcore, you know, feed me.
Margaret: Wired in.
Jorja Jamison: It sometimes. But it’s also I do have to remember, it’s so easy for me to flip into my bring your own BYOLAA. I just really sort of like, what if you were kind to yourself here, instead of judgmental? What if you were, you know, all of these things? What would that look like instead? I mean, this is it’s the curse of the blessing of being a therapist. We know all the things to say to other people. And when we’re ready to hear them, we have the tools to use, you know, and that sort of, kind of thing.
Margaret: Yeah. Well, I have lots of thoughts, but I want to just make sure we touch on a few other things that really struck me. And I don’t want to share about everything in the book because I want people to read it. Where are you at, by the way with publishing and getting it out there so people can read it.
Jorja Jamison 09:09
I’m currently looking for a publisher I’ve sent out to my last publisher that I’m going to solicit and if nothing comes out of this then I’ll go into the self publishing route. It’ll find a way kind of through but boy have I learned in the past couple of years like what a world publishing is, and you know, just how insane and crazy it is to get something out there. And also, how many different paths are to really do it?
Margaret 09:35
Right. I’ve met quite a few authors in doing the podcast who have self-published because they just felt it was important to get it out and they tried the routes. Please keep me posted so I can let everybody know when it is available, because I know people will be eager to read your book, Jorja.
09:51
This podcast is made possible by listeners like you!
Bumper: Anyone enjoy book clubs? I do for a few reasons. I read books that I would not normally choose to read and I really value listening to other people who read books share their experience with what they learned, read, and heard.
So in that vein I’m beginning the Embrace Family Recovery free virtual Book Club starting Thursday April 18th at noon Eastern Standard Time for anyone who wants to join.
Ohh yeah what’s the book? The book is worthy by Jamie Kern Lima. I chose this after learning more about Jamie’s story feeling a connection with her and wanting to eradicate the core belief and story in my head that has always said I’m not enough.
This book club is for anyone, and I welcome anyone who wants to dive into the lies that we have let stop us from believing we are worthy. Check out my show notes for links to my website embracefamilyrecovery.com
to learn more and register.
Also really cool I have happened to come across an extra copy of the book Worthy which is really hard to find right now as they’re selling out. So, I will send to the 10th person who registers for this book club they’re free copy of Worthy can’t wait to see you. Let’s get ready to do a deep dive into the book Worthy on a monthly basis!
11:36
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Margaret 11:48
Can we talk about gastric bypass a little bit.
Jorja Jamison: Yes.
Margaret: Because it’s one of the ones that a lot of us in food addiction have navigated our own journeys, looking for an answer, an offer being given, thinking it’s going to be a solution, and then the compounding of the shame when that is eaten through or over and the struggle to then continue to believe there is a solution that can work. How has your journey around that been? What’s your understanding of cross addiction and physiological differences with gastric bypass and other addictions?
Jorja Jamison 12:28
Well no, it’s interesting. And my views of this really are starting to shift in the past few months, that for a very long time, I wrapped myself around the idea that gastric bypass saved my life,
Margaret: Okay,
Jorja Jamison: That if I had to live any longer, in that big a body, that I would not have continued to live, I would have killed myself or something would have happened. And so that having the surgery, even with everything that happened from it, that it was overall good, because it saved my life. And what I’m really grappling with these days, and it’s still new in its infancy. But the truth is, when I got the gastric bypass surgery, which by the way, I lied my way through every assessment process, to show them that it wasn’t food addiction that I had, because that’s it’s one of the rollouts for gastric bypass, if it’s food addiction, you can’t get the bypass. And I lied and manipulated every assessment and everything. And then again, because I had the badge, I’m an addiction psychologist, they were like, oh, she must know. So, this must be true. And so, let her get the surgery.
But it was having the gastric bypass that as soon as my ability to overeat dropped off, because I physically couldn’t,
Margaret: Yeah
Jorja Jamison: my addiction to pills took off.
Margaret: Yeah.
Jorja Jamison: just like it was, you know, blast off into space. And so, the gastric bypass actually sent me into the worst of my substance use disorder. And that’s a very different way of looking at it as having saved my life. Som it’s still new, I’m still kind of figuring out and kind of working through it. But again, back in that, you know, if I’m going to accept other people, I have to accept myself as well. Maybe that was part of my journey, maybe getting the gastric bypass, maybe having the springboard into substance use disorder, maybe all of that, maybe all of that was necessary in my journey to get to where I am now.
Margaret 14:43
I believe that. I also wonder if you won’t do something academically with the wonderful brilliance and knowledge you have mixed with your experience to help us in the field. See that correlation of you having the, because I’ve been saying this for a long time working with clients who have the bypass, then their substance use skyrockets, they get into a rehab center, they’re putting down the substances. And the food intake skyrockets to the point that they’re having so many complications, dumping, physical ailments, secrecy, the whole nine yards. And so, for me, there’s this bias and this hope that you and your intellectual capacity and your ability to say things in such great way, and to teach the future generations of the helpers in this field, who knows where that might take you?
Jorja Jamison 15:38
Yeah, and then it is really great. If you if you stop looking at addiction as a substance and start looking at it as a process. The process can use any substance.
Margaret: Right.
Jorja Jamison: And that if we started teaching our clients and started teaching family members, that what addiction really is, it’s poor problem solving. We are trying to deal with a problem, we have a need, we have something that’s going on. And we’re trying to cope. And our brains have this weird, wonky way of thinking this is going to help us and whether it’s food or pills, or alcohol, or sex, anything money, achievement, all of these things, that it really is about understanding that process. And that true recovery means interrupting that process and learning a whole different way of being in the world.
Margaret 16:39
As we say in the rooms. You don’t have to change much just about everything.
Jorja Jamison: Yeah, yeah.
Margaret: Kindergarten, or earlier was when you realize there was a solution. In a pill.
Jorja Jamison: Yes.
Margaret: And that process then continued through pills and food.
Jorja Jamison 16:59
Yeah. When I tell my story, I always start out the same way. I don’t know the exact moment I became an addict. But I know what happened by the time I was five years old.
Margaret 17:12
Again, evidence that it is an illness, and that it is something in the brain that has impacted the continuation of your survival skills and what you used. So, when people want to blame, shame, judge.
You know, one of my previous supervisors would say, who has an audition for the part of addiction? I don’t know many people. Those who don’t have it, are spared having it, though. I think every one of the human race could benefit from recovery. But that’s a whole other discussion, I’m sure.
One of the other pieces that really hit me that I think you’ll appreciate because of again, coincidences, similarities in our journey, my resulting catalyst to get into recovery was through Al-Anon, through relationship. And when the relationship ended, it was with my, my first fiancée, my mother gave me a poem. And I was really aggravated by the poem. It didn’t resonate real well with me. But I kept it. And I was privileged in my Hazelden training year, because at that point, we all got to say a few words, as we graduated, I read that poem with a very different understanding, thanks to my recovery that I had been engaged in despite my resistance when I was first suggested by the clinician that I was recommended to go to when I started my training year because I needed support. And I was like, what, why. And you have that poem as a very integral part of your story. It just shook me, it was like, wow, I mean, it is the most incredible poem. Any of that you want to share it, you want to leave that for the book?
Jorja Jamison 19:08
Leave it for the book, but that poem, so it’s a poem, basically, about, instead of trying to get somebody else to take care of your garden, just start to take care of that yourself. I mean, that’s, that’s the theme of the poem. And what’s really interesting is that poem entered my life, way before 12 step recovery did. I mean, that goes, you know, probably at least 10 years before even 12 step recovery came into my life. But there was something in there that spoke to me of that was so true, that I latched on to, connect it to this deep, deep part of me in such a way that I’ve always had a special relationship with that poem. And it actually has been something we’ve passed around our family as we’ve gone through our own difficult relationships, and breakups and things like that. And so, I actually have it in two cross stitches at my house one downstairs, upstairs. But it is, I love that poem.
Margaret 20:08
I just do. And I just couldn’t believe it was part of your story because I it is a pivotal part of mine. And I’ll be forever grateful my mom shared it with me even though at the time I didn’t appreciate it.
So, Jorja, what would you like to share we haven’t touched on is there anything in particular, I mean, I’m in awe of your courage. I know how hard it is, to speak your truth, to ask for help when you are in the profession of helping. I’m so grateful you did. And I’m so grateful you’re choosing to share this truth with all of us. Because it gives permission for so many others out there who may be behind the mask to say, you know what, the world’s not going to end if I get help, it actually might improve. But is there anything we haven’t touched on that feels important to you to share?
Jorja Jamison 20:57
A couple of things, one thing that I recognize, I also have a lot of power and privilege right now to share my story. I am full professor, there are no more rungs for me to climb, I don’t have, you know, any other achievements that I need or have to have. And that gives me a certain freedom to be honest and truthful. And, again, if somebody had come to me, you know, even five, six years ago, I would not have been able to share as openly and freely as I as I can now, and that somebody else who can’t or who doesn’t, there’s no need to shame them for it or to expect them to be able to live as openly as I’ve been able to at this point,
Margaret: Right.
Jorja Jamison: Because there’s a lot of things that give me an advantage, I have no fear of losing my job. I have no fear of losing anyone in my family. And I have no fear of losing my license, you know, all these things, which keep a lot of people trapped.
Margaret 22:08
So, thank you. Absolutely. And as we say, it’s everybody’s journey to tell when they need to, it’s nobody else’s ever to tell and that there are risks involved for people and they have to weigh those out. You were in monitor program?
Jorja Jamison: Yes.
Margaret: Would the risks have been greater to be caught using in that than to tell your truth when sober.
Jorja Jamison 22:32
Probably, I mean, I can look at it now and sort of recognize the bind that was happening was the very process that was meant to catch people in early return to use, to continue to get them the right support and rehabilitation methods and sort of all that other stuff. But that mechanism of all of this, these reports that had to be, is actually what kept me trapped in mine. Because I did have the fear that if I were to talk about what was really going on, and what was really happening with me that my license would have been taken away. And the other important thing to talk about here is at the time that I was in HPSP was the name of the program, at the time I was at HPSP I didn’t really want to be sober.
Margaret: Right.
Jorja Jamison: I didin’t want it, I didn’t, you know, I didn’t want it.
Margaret 23:35
I just think of how exhausting it must have been to maintain that facade to try and trick, to be constantly on edge and lying and worried about being caught. I mean, that’s exhausting.
Jorja Jamison 23:46
Yeah, I mean, we look back at it. And we’re just like, what an insane way to live. But that was my norm. That was my mood. That was my life. That was every day I lived every day of my life.
Margaret 23:58
Ans that was one of the baffling things about recovery. For me when I felt calm and peace. It was almost uncomfortable. Like, what the hell do I do with this? I’m used to chaos, man. I’m used to crazy.
Jorja Jamison 24:10
There’s a certain energy and excitement to chaos.
Margaret 24:16
Yeah. And I think that’s why it’s so important to recognize this illness as complex and a process and there is levels of work to be done. And I love that. My sponsor shared this with me years ago. You know, when you’re green, you’re growing. When you’re ripe, you’re rotting. What do you want to be? I want to be green. Some days, I’d rather not have to grow anymore, but I’d rather be green. But in theory, the stretch of growth seemed overwhelming. And thank God for the principles of one day at a time and having accountability and sponsorship and the rest of it.
Jorja Jamison 24:52
Yeah, yeah. The lesson that was handed to me was to be alive is to grow. There is this thing is life without growth. And when there’s no growth, there’s no life. And those two things are just fundamentally and so like, Sorry, kid, if you’re alive, you’re gonna grow like there’s just it’s just inevitable. Yeah,
Margaret 25:13
Yah, that’s that gentle to yourself that BYOLAA in your acronym versus in the original version, you know, it’s like, it’s okay, you’re alive, that’s a good thing. It’s gonna be sucky some days, but you’re growing. Anything else? Don’t want to not give you the room to share anything?
Jorja Jamison 25:37
No, I think it’s just the absolute recognition of just how hard all of this work is. And as somebody who has my own addiction, has addiction in my family, has addiction in my clients, and teaches counselors on how to treat people with addiction. All of those things are hard. You know, it’s hard on every level, being in addiction. It’s hard being a family member. You know, it’s hard to have a clients with addiction. It’s hard teaching students like all of it, there’s nothing about it, that’s not hard. And that if we can maybe appreciate that and allow that to be part of the conversation. It gives us a little bit more grace, for what we need to do.
Margaret 26:30
And grace for each other wherever we are in that. Because I do think we tend to be hardest on self, which trickles down too hard on others. And I do love the word grace. My other favorite word about recovery is integrity.
26:45
Jorja Jamison: Oh boy, oh yeah.
Margaret 26:46
I didn’t even know what that was. I didn’t even know what I was lacking and how great it feels to have it. So you know, though it is hard, undeniable, it is hard work. I think it’s a hell of a lot harder to stay stuck in the disease than do the work of recovery. I
Outro: Thank you, Jorja, for being so fearless and sharing your story. There were so many takeaways for this episode. What my takeaway was, a reminder of recovery being a journey of self-compassion and growth.
Come back next week where I’m excited to introduce you to Casey Arrillaga author of numerous books including his most recent ‘Mommy’s Getting Sober’ for the youngest members of our families. Casey shares great insights, and his story is one that I am excited for you to hear.
I want to thank my guest for their courage and vulnerability and sharing parts of their story. Please find resources on my website.
embraceffamilyrecovery.com
This is Margaret Swift Thompson.
Until next time, please take care of you!