Marriage Lab
Porn Addiction in Marriage Pt 3: the Spouse's Perspective
Link to online small group interest form: HERE
Laughter echoes through even our most challenging times, and this episode kicks off with a tale from a men's retreat that'll have you chuckling along with us. But as our conversation turns, we confront the shadows within marriage—specifically, the silent struggle of porn addiction. We open up about the emotional toll this addiction takes on the non-addicted spouse, illustrating the journey through feelings of betrayal to finding a path towards healing and understanding within the relationship.
Navigating the murky waters of shame and betrayal requires a delicate touch, and this episode doesn't shy away from the tough discussions. We explore the necessity of validating a hurt partner's feelings and the potential harm in concealing pain. Sharing our perspective, we stress the importance of choosing confidants wisely—those who can offer wisdom and hope—while avoiding the pitfalls of codependency and learning to let go of the illusion of control, allowing for true healing to begin.
Wrapping up, we impart strategies for coping with addiction within a marriage, focusing on the need for personal accountability and external support systems rather than relying solely on a partner for recovery. We dissect the complexities of the recovery journey, advocating for realistic expectations and personal peace regardless of a partner's progress. This episode isn't just about sharing our own experiences—it's about offering hope and practical advice for those walking this tough road alongside us.
>>> Would you consider financially supporting our shows? <<<
We set-up a secure way for you to do that. This helps Jenna & Aaron to continue to be able to prioritize making content for you! We appreciate it so much.
Simply click on this link & you'll support both of the Zints' podcasts!!
patreon.com/TheHabitLab
Check out our website ZintSquad.com for coaching individual and couple's coaching appointments, Online Small Groups, Aaron's book, Jenna's Habit Lab Mastery Course and more.
Please review, subscribe and share your favorite episodes with a friend!
Link to online small group interest form: HERE
Laughter echoes through even our most challenging times, and this episode kicks off with a tale from a men's retreat that'll have you chuckling along with us. But as our conversation turns, we confront the shadows within marriage—specifically, the silent struggle of porn addiction. We open up about the emotional toll this addiction takes on the non-addicted spouse, illustrating the journey through feelings of betrayal to finding a path towards healing and understanding within the relationship.
Navigating the murky waters of shame and betrayal requires a delicate touch, and this episode doesn't shy away from the tough discussions. We explore the necessity of validating a hurt partner's feelings and the potential harm in concealing pain. Sharing our perspective, we stress the importance of choosing confidants wisely—those who can offer wisdom and hope—while avoiding the pitfalls of codependency and learning to let go of the illusion of control, allowing for true healing to begin.
Wrapping up, we impart strategies for coping with addiction within a marriage, focusing on the need for personal accountability and external support systems rather than relying solely on a partner for recovery. We dissect the complexities of the recovery journey, advocating for realistic expectations and personal peace regardless of a partner's progress. This episode isn't just about sharing our own experiences—it's about offering hope and practical advice for those walking this tough road alongside us.
>>> Would you consider financially supporting our shows? <<<
We set-up a secure way for you to do that. This helps Jenna & Aaron to continue to be able to prioritize making content for you! We appreciate it so much.
Simply click on this link & you'll support both of the Zints' podcasts!!
patreon.com/TheHabitLab
Check out our website ZintSquad.com for coaching individual and couple's coaching appointments, Online Small Groups, Aaron's book, Jenna's Habit Lab Mastery Course and more.
Please review, subscribe and share your favorite episodes with a friend!
We've never seen a perfect marriage.
Speaker 2:But we have seen marriages that are full of laughter and life.
Speaker 1:Conflict and misunderstandings, growth and hope. We want to dive into the nuts and bolts of those relationships.
Speaker 2:There are no experts here, just real talk with real couples who really like each other.
Speaker 1:This is Marriage Lab with Erin and.
Speaker 2:Jenna, welcome to the Habit Lab. This is Jenna Marizit.
Speaker 1:This is not the Habit Lab. This is. Marriage Lab. That's the last time I let you intro that was not a perfect Wrong podcast.
Speaker 2:I gotta help it. I just have so many podcasts I make. If you haven't listened to my Habit Lab podcast, I highly recommend it. The host is fabulous. Most of the time she knows which podcast she's recording. Okay, fun story. Erin has helped co-lead a local men's group for years and years and every year, once a year, they do a men's retreat and it's a weekend away.
Speaker 1:Called Manifest, which we've actually talked about this before.
Speaker 2:So you guys probably know, and he had it this past weekend, it was awesome. Was there 60 men? How many men?
Speaker 1:50.
Speaker 2:Okay, 50 men, anyways. So the funny story is that Aaron had me come speak. Can you believe it, punchline, that's it Just kidding. He had me come speak. Ha ha ha. Can you believe it, punchline, that's it Just kidding. He had me come speak. And at the end of my time I went up there it was like an hour away Drove to this little campground that they I mean it's a whole- camp.
Speaker 1:It's a huge campground. It's a huge campground, not a little, it's actually like a retreat center.
Speaker 2:Anyways, as, um I get to get off the stage, I'm actually going to leave immediately, so I'm glad it started snowing.
Speaker 1:She had to get out of there quick before it's she got snowed in. Yes, exactly.
Speaker 2:So I'm getting my stuff and they're just, they keep clapping and they're the kind of culture that like they do a standing ovation whether or not you're good or not. So it was less about me and more about that's the kind of men they are. So they're giving me a standing ovation, I'm gathering my stuff and I'm like, oh no, it's fine, I have to. You know, whatever they keep clapping.
Speaker 1:So I'm like okay, just go with it. And then Jace starts the Jenna, jenna, yes. So everyone starts chanting and everyone turns around to watch her walk out the door.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh. I don't know if you notice this it's a seven inch drop without a step, right out of the door. Seven inch drop is a step, so I'm pretty sure like a code nowadays is you actually have to have a step in and out, like I don't think you can just drop like that. Anyways, I dropped. Speaking of things dropping, I dropped to the ground 50 men.
Speaker 1:It was such a stark contrast from like four dudes got up like real quick to try to help you and two it was like jenna, and then I was like, oh, like they were all quiet. It was not like maybe no one saw it it just fell to the ground laughing, and then I was laughing.
Speaker 2:I mean laughing. And then I was laughing. I mean I fell, and then I was laughing because what else are you going to do? It was hilarious. But then I realized that they didn't feel comfortable. You know like they're probably nervous that I was like OK. So instead of getting up and walking, I kind of half crawled over to the door and just said I'm OK and I shut it.
Speaker 1:It was the most. I was like wow, to go from a standing ovation chanting your name to on your butt my favorite is how you just said this there should be a step where the seven inch drop is okay, sir, that is not the point of the story.
Speaker 2:Okay, we want to give a shout out. If you have ever enjoyed one of our podcasts, please consider being a sponsor of the show. We just had Renee Mufield Actually shout out to Miss Renee. She became a $5 member and then immediately upgraded to a $10 member Mulfeld. Clearly I can't say my own podcast name.
Speaker 1:I should let you do all the shout outs actually.
Speaker 2:Why are we letting me do this?
Speaker 1:She joined, upgraded and then upgraded immediately after that. Thanks, renee.
Speaker 2:Renee, we really appreciate the support, but you can always click the Patreon link In our show notes and support our show. It helps us to prioritize it truly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it really does we. Why don't you just introduce the topic?
Speaker 2:yeah, it's kind of funny. I keep spearheading the porn talks we.
Speaker 1:So this is our last uh episode in our porn series um which we didn't even start off intentionally wanting to do a porn series. Did we or did you have that? I mean, this was it was so on purpose now the first we've known.
Speaker 2:We always wanted to do a porn and then it was like oh, these are more things we need to say. So, I said that wrong a porn series. And then after last week I was like, oh, we need to talk about from the wife's perspective as well, because we had more from the men like what's happening in the spouse's perspective. So our body last week was what's happening in actual addiction. So this week's episode is a porn addiction from the spouse perspective which the non-addicted spouse.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, I think we, like I said, we do couples coaching. If this is something in your marriage, consider booking with us, cause we walk through. We've done a lot of these. Um, so this is from my more my perspective. Of course, I would not give away anything else, and this is the things that we had to walk through too right when you, when we're, you were walking in the sobriety one the first most common large emotion is the feeling of betrayal.
Speaker 2:I would say, um, I think it's two parts. One it's the sexual deviance-ness of it, like that outside of the covenant of your marriage and you being like your intimacy with me. And then the other thing that most people like you don't think of off the bat is like the lying and the secrecy, like the covering up there's obviously the spouse knows it's wrong and however long it takes them to come clean or be honest, or get caught, or get caught depending on the person's story, like that actually is.
Speaker 2:it's almost a separate emotion or trauma you have to process through of the like wow. So when we were there that was happening. You have to process through of the like wow, so when we were there, that was happening, and when this was happening like it makes you re-look at these incidences, that through a length, through a different.
Speaker 1:I think one of the common things that I've heard is it feels like the last x number of months or years. While this has been going on, every good thing feels like a lie. Now, because there was so much lying that was happening, was everything a lie? It kind of put there's suddenly there's just like mud thrown on the screen as you look back at your past.
Speaker 2:It's like was the experience that I thought was happening? Then finding out there's this whole other subplot. And then you're like what was real? Then out, there's this whole other sub subplot and then you're like what was real?
Speaker 1:then like where?
Speaker 2:were you happy or were you extra trying to cover up what you know? It just happened like it just makes it really confusing.
Speaker 2:And then, um, the common thing I remember is feeling embarrassed too, because there's this I thought this was happening on this vacation or whatever, and then this thing was happening. So like feeling like stupid, kind of like not believing it or just naive, it just makes you feel foolish in a way that you wouldn't expect, but that's like a large feeling of the after the initial. I think that's the one that most people don't expect to feel.
Speaker 1:Sure yeah.
Speaker 2:Or have to process after the initial. I think that's the one that most people don't expect to feel. Sure, yeah, or have to process, and my advice for the spouse if you're like with Aaron. If we'd have these conversations, he'd say like I have, I have to confess some stuff to you Frankly, some he would give me. I'm trying to think you usually give me a heads up and they'd be like debate.
Speaker 2:Give me a heads up and they'd be like debate, like would you, do you have the capacity to hear it tonight or like now? I found it helpful to prep with like actually helped me, I know not everyone to ask that question yeah, and then to have a little bit of space because I'm like I'm gonna feel sadness versus getting totally caught off guard blindsided blindsided by it.
Speaker 2:I did appreciate some of the time. Maybe I was like I want to hear it now, but then I realized more of like my urgency to feel safe would want to hear it now, versus I could talk to myself. I got to the spot where I'm like, hey, actually you like have some, be kind to yourself and give yourself margin. Your need to know like you will find out more later, but this need to know like actually buy yourself some almost like time to grieve so that you have margin for yourself I think that's the difference is like.
Speaker 2:For a while I kept thinking about initially you, but I realized when I, if you'd confess something, I actually needed to think about what I needed oh, you were thinking about.
Speaker 1:Oh, you were thinking about what I needed, yeah, or?
Speaker 2:even like should he tell me now? Or? I know this sounds funny, but I could like wanting the heads up and then time to process so that I have more margin. That could sound like it's for the sake of how I'm gonna show up is better for you, but really it's like yes, you'll benefit from that, but it's actually for me that I'll have more of a capacity to show up in a way and hear it differently so it's like the same action, but with, like, doing it for what?
Speaker 1:now, this is you already knowing generally what I'm gonna share, right, I mean?
Speaker 2:this is like some level of um slip up with whatever your priority point is.
Speaker 1:Yeah this would be in contrast to you know your husband never having. You don't or you've said like is this an issue?
Speaker 2:and he goes.
Speaker 1:No, no, no and then some point he goes hey, I have something big to confess like I can't really imagine somebody going. I need to like wait until you tell me, but it's always possible wait, wait, wait till you tell me if you, yeah I, because when I would say say, give you a heads up, I want to confess something. Do you have capacity for that? You knew what was coming after that.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, Like I didn't.
Speaker 1:It wasn't like this. It was almost code for you, yeah, If I told you I have a brand new confession of something I've never confessed before, it'd be hard to imagine because just not knowing what to even prepare for.
Speaker 2:So this is just in that context well, my thought would be, though I would I'd love to talk to, like the spouse who's confessing. Sometimes they try to talk your significant other out of their experience, like well you shouldn't feel betrayed because of this or blah blah. That's not your spot when you, especially when you it's not your role.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's not your role and actually anything you it's not your role, yeah, it's not your role and actually anything they feel is valid, like don't talk them Sometimes, especially in that seat where you are confessing what's happening, having them be like, well, this makes sense. That doesn't with your reaction, like now they just get to have their experience.
Speaker 2:You get to be empathetic, for they feel sad, hurt, lonely, probably, feel all the things anger, guilt, shame, yeah, all of them, um. So don't try to temper or make their experience make sense in your brain and then even to like. Let there be almost like again, with separate experiences around betrayal or hurt, or lonely like, like, oh okay, I feel lonely about this, I feel hurt about this and this, you know, like, yeah, so just layers of the feeling of being embarrassed and betrayed and surprised by the lying and the deceit around it too. The next thing that I would say the spouse's perspective.
Speaker 2:Often there's this belief I remember in me when you told me that I needed to cover for you I think it's that Christian verbiage about covering, protecting your spouse, all that stuff and realizing that that actually I think we talked about it in a separate episode, but that doesn't do what I think it was going to do. Like I thought it was loving you well by not exposing you, but it actually was allowing this to stay hidden and me not actually get any outside help or perspective. That would totally benefited from like benefit, our marriage. So me I remember like you were actually really open you're?
Speaker 2:yeah, I never actually asked you to cover but like I didn't know, I remember being like who can I trust? Who won't think? You know you're a terrible person who's still going to be for our marriage and us figuring this out.
Speaker 1:And in the kind of general shame I remember you telling me about, like you actually carrying my shame, like my husband struggles with this.
Speaker 2:And yeah, because I have friends whose husbands don't and I have more friends whose husbands have periodically. But this idea of like, oh, like, like does that mean we're less than or whatever, and I just had to get over. Like I actually care more about letting people speak into an investor in marriage than I do. The shame that would keep me isolated or like not talking about this like it's worth, like anything else, like even like when audrey went through diabetes, it was worth bringing people in because even if they haven't had a child with diabetes.
Speaker 2:They can speak for comfort, care like, heal my heart in a way that was so helpful and this was like for that as well. So not the need to be known was big yeah in in what you're experiencing.
Speaker 1:Um, and the desire to, for some people are generally more private. I can imagine some husbands either making the request or feeling like it would be wrong and maybe the wife as well for the wife to bring it up to somebody else because it's my thing. But in reality, the pain that it caused the pain is her thing, and you know. If the roles are reversed, the same thing. And you know if the roles are reversed, the same thing.
Speaker 1:But I remember a wife coming to me after I shared at a place and she was like I haven't wanted to tell anybody because I don't want to embarrass my husband, I don't want to uncover him, but she's just dying inside because she was so alone and just. You know I have a ton of empathy for any guy that is like terrified of being found out beyond his wife. But I get it and sorry you, actually this needs to be exposed to the light. That's the only way this thing dies is if it's taken out of the dark, and your wife, getting her heart taken care of is way more important than you protecting your pride.
Speaker 2:That's so true. And then I was going to say, too, like you can't make your spouse, you could ask them and be like, hey, I'd feel a lot safer if you talked about it. But you actually can, as the spouse decide that you are going to, like it's your boundary, Like, hey, I'm going to need to talk to someone. I think one of the like, some of the ways you could do, is like would you feel, like thinking of the people that they most like you would trust to still be like pro your marriage and pro healing and restoration? Those would be the people who like wisdom and that's their stance that I would choose but then you could be like, hey, would you rather britney or ashley like right but they like.
Speaker 2:Whether or not they want to isn't the question. It's like I'll give you a little bit and then if they're still not like, no, no one be like. You get to choose someone and be like okay I'm gonna talk to britney because I care too much about our marriage to let this not have someone else be like part of the healing, like contributing to it.
Speaker 1:So yeah, and don't, don't I. I just avoid going to talk to people who are going to commiserate with your misery or hurt like, pain Like hearing you is different and empathizing with you and going like, yeah, that actually sucks really bad. That is wrong. It's different than talking to a friend who's been cheated on, who still hasn't walked through forgiveness or process any of their hurt.
Speaker 2:We've said it before, but we definitely consider who we go to for it.
Speaker 2:But, like I have different friends that I go to for financial advice, I have different friends who I go to for friend advice. I have different friends who I go for startup business advice like know who your source is like and be well acquainted with their own perception and get someone, choose someone who is going to be a healthy life, truth speaking, hope filled source for your marriage. In this for sure, but you, even if your spouse, if you politely give them options and they're not, you can still choose someone. You don't have to get permission and they're not, you can still choose someone you don't have to get permission.
Speaker 2:The next thing, number three, I would say, is how much shame, your awareness of shame for your spouse that confessed. So I'm going to all do it from my perspective. So you're the one with the problem. I had this like. It was like this acute awareness that sometimes I would almost want to use shame as a tool to make you feel worse, to make you understand how bad it hurt, like you're disgusting, you know, like something like an example of using shame would be. Like you know you're disgusting or so perverted or whatever, like purposely, almost like pushing a bruise, like leaning into almost making my pain felt with my weird choices. So that's like one end of the spectrum. But it's funny how you could feel both or experience both of this. And the other end of the spectrum was that sometimes I would try to minimize the shame that you felt, where I wouldn't share pain or hard stuff, because I knew how hard it was for you. Like I saw the shame, how much shame you wore about it. So I did. It was almost like I watched you with like a weighted jacket and it was like so heavy and I was like, oh, I don't want to add to that, like he he's got a lot of weight on his shoulder. So I'm going to like almost like purposely minimizing my pain so that it doesn't hit your shame button.
Speaker 2:And to me I had to almost untangle this idea Like I'm not trying to, I'm not. There's a scripture in first Corinthians where we're memorizing it. That was like the translation passion. But it says that love, true love, does not traffic in shame or disrespect. I love that. Like traffic, like that means like barter or like the currency they don't use that as a currency.
Speaker 2:And in this instance, like there is a ton of pain but in my pain I won't traffic purposely, like I won't use shame as a tool to make you feel understood, like make you understand how much you hurt me. But then the flip side is, I won't withhold explaining my pain or being known in my pain by your action. If you, then if it jacks your shame, if that's not my heart, does that make sense? So, like my heart was not to add you, like when I took care of that part of my heart, it was not to add shame but I wasn't going to not share pain. Like I sw care of that part of my heart, it was not to add shame but I wasn't going to not share pain.
Speaker 2:Like I swung to the end of the spectrum and then I got back to the middle of like yes, you're going to hear, this hurt me. This is why I really hope you don't add it to your shame like pile. But I'm not going to spare you for my pain or explaining how this felt or impacted me, because I see the shame you're wearing. That's not my goal. But I can't actually control how you pick this up, how you pick up my pain.
Speaker 1:Yep, yeah, that's really good.
Speaker 2:So you just have to be honest, I would say the person be honest about your pain. If you end, if you're ending on the spectrum of minimizing it, it's not helpful. You actually is betraying yourself. I remember that was for a while, probably quite a few times in the early years I would minimize my pain and then I realized I, like, was kind of bitter towards you and it was because I was minimizing my own experience.
Speaker 1:It didn't wind up actually helping in the long run.
Speaker 2:Exactly, it didn't help. It cost you more. Sometimes, I think, when we minimize our pain, it's like putting something on a credit card. It's like we don't pay for it upfront, but then when it comes due, the interest that it comes due is the bit is like bitterness or offense Cause I'm like I've been doing this for years and like, oh, I actually should have not been doing this for years, I should have processed it as it came rather than charging it. Number four the things the spouse has perspective is that I?
Speaker 2:cannot fix you. That was a big deal for me.
Speaker 2:I especially yeah, I know I was like I am miss, fix it in all things so like you'd confess and I'd try to give you solutions, and then I would get sad and mad when you wouldn't want to take my laundry list. And then I felt like maybe, um, you didn't care about like some of the narratives I got, or maybe you didn't care about getting sober or better, or you would take my suggestions and then, um, but I think, when I peeled it back, just realizing that they were attempts I do do care about, there are, there are very practical things you could do, like blockers and site guardian sites, like all those things, but ultimately, like we said before, whatever's under and driving the porn problem, which is usually a lack of a helpful way to process your emotions.
Speaker 2:If that's not taken care of, then you can have all the site blockers you want and you don't have another. If you don't have another option for processing your emotion, or when you're in pain you will jump through crazy hoops to get around. Yeah, the habits or tools that you've put in place, we've watched it. Time to get like crazy creative to go around the things yeah.
Speaker 2:So for me, I just realized that, like why was I trying to give you a bunch of solutions? Because actually I was trying to create safety for myself. And I felt if I could, if I could give you, if you do enough things, I could control the outcome and create safety for myself and I wouldn't have to feel this again.
Speaker 1:It's a. It's a classic codependent way that the Al-Anon was created for. So we have Alcoholics Anonymous for the addicts and then we have Al-Anon for the codependents, as they call them. Basically, al-anon is for everybody in the family who is in this family system with an addict, and there's just as much healing. It's not the family hasn't, like, made that person an addict or done something wrong in that regard, but typically the system that's created through other people trying to control, trying to fix, trying to help, help it, because they one, they care Like you also cared about me. But then there is that sense of like man. This is scary If you could make me feel safer, and sometimes that comes out in that control, but it's one of the ways that it just doesn't work. So, which is why they create whole groups to help people, kind of let go of the grip, attempts at being in your journey.
Speaker 2:I think that at first was offensive that my solutions, maybe like to me, weren't helpful or even honestly, when the Lord was like kind of revealing like you are working harder, they can't work harder on this than Aaron is, or even that like that letting go of it. Actually, it was like probably one of the hardest things like letting go of my solutions or trying to control or help you.
Speaker 1:It's a very powerless feeling.
Speaker 2:I would imagine Well what I was going to say, is it felt already getting like I was vulnerable and was, you know, like injured because of this breach of trust, so then being told to let go even further?
Speaker 1:it feels like so unfair yeah.
Speaker 2:And it feels like of course you wouldn't ask that of me and I'm not talking about you, but I'm talking about the lord but just realizing finally like oh, he's not asking me to be less safe, he's actually asking me to upgrade. Like aaron has to own this and work on this for actual, lasting change.
Speaker 1:Any of jenna's short-term solutions or strategies are not going to be the path that aaron especially if passivity, like all those things, like you actually have to learn to process your emotions you have to learn to take you take ownership and actually do stuff that other people aren't telling you to do. But you know that you might have people helping you, give you ideas, but this kind of leads into the next thing. It's not the role of the wife to be the sobriety coach.
Speaker 2:And I remember you saying something like I don't need you to be my sobriety coach. I think it's interesting because you already have so much pain. And I remember being like you cannot tell me what it is, have not been betrayed.
Speaker 1:I'm not making light of the betrayal, but like I felt like you don't get a vote, you don't get to say, and I was like actually what you're saying is I love you enough not to put you in this role yeah, it's kind of like parentifying a child, in a sense that sometimes a parent will lean on their child emotionally in a way that an adult is not ever meant to lean on a child, and while the child feels extra loved by the attention and like, oh look, I can help mommy or daddy feel better, it actually creates, it puts the child in a role that they were never meant to play and a role that they will ultimately fail in, which creates a lot of brokenness, a lot of trauma, can create a lot of trauma and create a lot of weird systems that really set the kid up for failure.
Speaker 1:And so, in the same way, the wife, while it feels really good to be able to have that sense of control and sometimes, you know, the husband may even like appreciate it on some level I don't know, most of them don't, though Most of them are constantly they're just constantly hearing I can't trust you, I can't trust you, I can't trust you, so let me take over which makes it really difficult to try to make progress themselves in any sufficient way, because then they're either hurting their wife by not doing what they're saying or they do it, but then it feels like the wife doesn't actually gain trust by being a sobriety coach.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 1:So when she says do this thing, and he does it like, okay, that's good, but it was because of her, and so she knows that if she ever lets go and decides to trust, that's when things go off the rails, because it was her the whole time that was keeping him up. If he allows her to be that coach, so he's really got to give that role to somebody else. It needs to be another man.
Speaker 2:I was going to say, though, one thing I did need from you it needs to be another man. I was gonna say, though, one thing I did need from you like. So when I stopped almost like dictating the play-by-plays or solutions, I did need to know how you were working on it. So I think the difference of like micromanaging what I needed, like you needed to do, versus like okay, this is a passivity thing, you know, like this is your deal and your problem, but I need to know that you're working on it.
Speaker 2:You have forward motion in your plan, Like, and most of the time you would not have ideas in the moment, which sometimes I felt like I almost be like, well, I have, it's my right to know. But I'm like, okay, Like I almost be like, well, it's my right to know, but I'm like, okay, I actually know what it feels like to not have a plan. So then I'd be like can you tell me by tomorrow?
Speaker 1:some of the things you're going to. Can you create a plan?
Speaker 2:Create a plan, but I'd give you like a timeframe of when I need to circle back, because that would create safety in me of like knowing okay, he's going to work on it. I'm not micromanaging him, but I do actually need to know what this is going to look like.
Speaker 1:And that's that, I think, is a entirely fair thing to ask is hey, what are you going? So, what are you going to do? To, to, to like not to make sure this doesn't happen again? Um, and if the guy's like I don't know, then you go, okay, I, in order to feel safe, like I need you to, I need you to figure that out. Now, what, what for any guys? What he's cannot, what he's not going to do is go. Oh, I figured out what it was. Okay, I fixed that thing, and now porn's not an issue anymore.
Speaker 1:That's not what he's going after. What he's going after is like the little bits of better, which doesn't give him an excuse. But he actually has to try something and that always has to involve and I'll just say this as a blanket statement, even though you could throw some nuance in there it has to involve other men. It has to, if he goes, me and the Lord, bs, call BS on it. This is an isolation addiction, an isolation problem, a relational intimacy problem. It cannot be fixed just you and the Lord. It cannot be fixed you by yourself or you and your husband alone. He has to get other people involved.
Speaker 2:He has to. That's so good and true. So then, when you're letting go of that, I can't fix you concept and letting go of control. One of the things that would happen, though, is because there are patterns that would arise that like oh, the last two times we've been here, you've had a purity slip. So for what I started, so I would maybe not micromanage you on the daily, but then, when we'd start heading toward these areas, before that there was this pattern I would. I'd want to try that attempt.
Speaker 1:It'd be like a vacation, where there's a ton of free time or you're leaving maybe leaving, and I'll be home by myself on the weekend, or so, finally, I Should we?
Speaker 2:When you podcast at nine 37 and you've been up for so long anyways, my point would be so, instead of going through like I don't feel safe, I don't like, a lot of times I would make statements that were almost like judgment or about you. So instead I finally just started owning, like I feel fear, going into leaving this weekend, knowing that that can be hard for you. Like, have you like? Do you have thoughts about how I'm going to feel like? What is Danny Silk's line? Like you're going to be like, make me feel like a genius.
Speaker 1:Help me feel like a genius for X.
Speaker 2:I would say that be wary. I don't think I ever used that exact line because I don't want him to feel condescended upon, but this idea of I owning that I feel fear and then like what? What's happening or what could you do or work on that would make me feel like we're aware and on the same page, versus like I just crossing my fingers it doesn't happen again. Or the other end of the spectrum would be like I don't feel safe, I need you to do this and this and this. So either micromanagement or passivity, like what's the middle ground?
Speaker 2:of like expressing vulnerably the fear and then like, hey, how's this past pattern going to work? And then, last, I would say gosh, I remember when you were walking out of this. I can't one of the, probably one of the most intense early on times.
Speaker 2:I felt so scared, shocked, betrayed tense early on times I felt so scared, shocked, betrayed, like it was just such heightened emotions that I was like I cannot be okay if this happens again. And then I remember it happened again and I was like the level of betrayal was like, oh my gosh, fool me once. What is that expression? Shame on you. Fool you twice. Shame on me, or something like that and I was like is this that?
Speaker 2:and then I finally, like, as I learned more about addiction, I realized that I kind of it was like that of like how probably it was. I wanted it to be just a clear-cut 180 you know like and he never goes back and there are some people of those stories, but then there's other people when they walk out of any kind of addiction drug addiction and like, oh gosh, I'm thinking of so many addictions it's like.
Speaker 2:It's like looks like a stair step, or not even a stair step, that's just constantly up, but it's maybe like three steps up, one step back, two steps up, one step back or whatever the graph, wacky graph, it's just not an upward line and I've like had this awareness. I remember like the Lord, because I was like I, I was thinking and saying things like I can't be okay if he does this again, or I'll never be if like once is one thing, but twice, no, I won't be.
Speaker 2:Or three times like. And finally I felt like the lord was, like it's gonna hurt. You never have to hide him from your hurt. Like you know, protect him from your pain. You don't have to minimize it. There will be consequences for his actions. That's just kind of the natural law of all things right in this world. But you can't, you would. You will be okay if this happens again and I remember I get it. I almost felt offensive when the lord was like proposing the idea he's like.
Speaker 2:What I'm not saying is that it's hopeless. What I am saying is that if you have me in all situations and I'm limitless comfort, healing, freedom, aaron's choices can't take you Like. You can actually find safety and it might hurt, and it might hurt just as bad the third time or the second time or whatever the pattern is. But this narrative of like I won't be okay, like, honestly realizing I was empowering that and almost empowering fear and it um became high stakes.
Speaker 2:So like you can, please be full of hope, but then also to the reality, you can also be okay because you're connected to a limitless source of hope and comfort and healing If your spouse's journey isn't perfectly upward, If it isn't a recovery that has no steps back, Like thinking, I think at one point I remember thinking about one of our friends who had a drug like a recovery from a drug addiction, and it was six months sober and then blah, blah, blah and then it was like nine months sober and then it was like a year and a half sober and it was like and now it's been five plus years or something and it's like blah blah.
Speaker 2:And then it was like nine months sober and then it was like a year and a half sober and it was like and now it's been you know five plus years or something. And it's like, yes, this is amazing, but having that most people have the expectation of with other addictions, that you know, it is a walking out process, but with porn, um, it's harder to get that.
Speaker 2:So I don't know how you hold that tension, how would you wrap that tension up of. There is absolutely hope, and even we've experienced hope and breakthrough in our own marriage. And then also, the reality is as a spouse, because your hope is not in them and your trust and healing and comfort is not tied to their choices. Yes, there will be pain if they make a choice similar to the one that got you the original one, but you can also be okay because you're connected to an infinite source of comfort.
Speaker 1:I don't know that I put it any other way.
Speaker 2:Okay, those are the five. I'm gonna just quickly that. Yes, it feels like betrayal on a couple levels. Process through anything and all of your emotions that come up, it's okay. You don't have to categorize them or oversimplify it. Number two do not cover and stay isolated for your spouse. You can give them decisions you can or choices you can be like. Please be as kind and communicate on their team as possible. But isolation even if they would not, it would not be their preference will not be where freedom is found and growth and health for your marriage.
Speaker 2:Number three shame. Do not traffic in shame. It's not helpful. Even you can 100% be honest in your pain, but not purposely name calling or punishing or the other end. Don't minimize your pain for trying to help them avoid shame Like nope. Be honest about your own pain without trying to add or minimize their own shame experience.
Speaker 2:Number four you cannot fix them. Letting go the illusion of control, not trying to be the sobriety coach. And then number five, because you're connected to an infinite source of comfort and healing. Even if their journey out is not perfectly clean, you can be okay. There is hope and there's limitless resource for you. So we, I'm just gonna pray, jesus, I thank you for hope, I thank you for bravery to face the healing Mm-hmm in marriages that are walking us out. I pray for friends and people around them that they'll be able, that they will turn to and choose honesty and invite in, and that they would come in with truth and hope and love and just usher in more freedom. So we just speak an increase in freedom in this area for all the marriages listening to this in Jesus name.
Speaker 1:Jesus name Start. In a few weeks I have my starting my next round of the online small groups for men struggling with porn and if you are interested, if you have a man in your life that is interested in that, you can find information at zinsquadcom.
Speaker 2:Or the show notes. You can put the link in the show notes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the link will be in the show notes as well. For the interest form and then all anybody who fills out the interest form, I'll respond. We're going to be doing it's basically an hour a week at this point. This is. It's going to start may 25th 2024. It's 9 am on saturdays, california time. That's pacific standard. There'll be homework every week. It'll last for 12 weeks, so they won't be all consecutive because we have different weekend vacations spread out throughout them, but they will be 12 weeks cumulatively.
Speaker 2:It's $300 for those 12 weeks if you pay up front, which is $100 a month, right $120 a month if you do it monthly $300 up front, which is still cheaper than one-on-one coaching $100 a month, $120 a month if you do it monthly $300 up front. Which is still cheaper than one-on-one coaching. So it's quite the deal actually.
Speaker 1:But I've done this. I think this will be like the fourth or fifth round that I've done and the guys that have gone through it before. It's really connected with them and been able to start to add a ton of value and growing in all the areas that prop up porn use and to start building habits in their lives that are like getting them freedom, helping them move forward, getting them taking steps towards wholeness that a lot of them had never taken before, and it's just been a privilege to walk with these guys through this.
Speaker 2:And if this is the first you're hearing it, aaron also wrote a book called had never taken before and it's just been a privilege to walk with these guys through this, and if this is the first you're hearing it, aaron also wrote a book called numb to known about his journey out of porn, and it's a helpful resource as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I actually looked today. It was number 29. In a sexual addiction or sexual health, sexual health recovery, something like that, one of the categories is number 29, which is probably his last week's podcast.
Speaker 2:Thank, you?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was it.
Speaker 2:People all over the world join him. Okay, I love you, babe, I love you too.