Episode #24 with Jerry Berenguer from Champion Life Centre in Brampton, Ontario

In this episode we talk about two new churches that have been planted from their network, what is making their multiplication efforts so successful and some ideas on how to keep churches multiplying in the future.

Transcript

Transcript of Podcast by Multiply Network

 Created to champion church multiplication, provide learning and inspire new disciple- 

making communities across Canada

2019 – Jerry Berenguer

Paul Fraser:  Welcome to the Multiply Network podcast, a podcast created to champion church multiplication, provide learning and inspire new disciple-making communities across Canada.

Hi there.  Welcome to the Multiply Network podcast.  My name is Paul Fraser, the host of the Multiply Network podcast.  I’m so grateful that you took time to tune in again today from wherever you’re at and whatever you’re doing, we hope you’re having a fantastic day.

I do feel like a broken record.  We have so many great guests who come on this podcast and today is no different.  Pastor Jerry Berenguer who will give a bit of an intro in the podcast itself, but has been planting churches for well over two decades and has  a tremendous amount of expertise.  You are going to hear about stuff that works, things they’ve had to change, they’ve had to hit the reset button on different things.  And I love his humility.  I love the simplicity, love the wisdom and passion that he has to see Canadians reached with the gospel.

The interview is coming up right now.

Q.  Wow.  Do we have a special guest this month for the Multiply Network Podcast.  Pastor Jerry Berenguer is the lead pastor of Champion Life Centre and has been planting churches for quite a while.  We’ll get to him and all those questions here in a minute.  But Pastor Jerry, welcome to the podcast.

Jerry Berenguer:

A.  Hi, Paul.  I’m glad to be here.  Thanks for inviting me.

Q.  It’s so good to have you because you are quietly leading ---

I don’t know if it’s a church planting movement, but there are so many churches that you have planted over the years, we just had to get you talking about that.  And then later in the podcast we’re going to talk about two recent ones that your church and organization have planted.

But why don’t we start with what got you so passionate about church planting initially?

A.  That’s a good question.  First of all, the spiritual part of it was a passion for God and to obey the Great Commission to make disciples of all nations.  I think everybody has that kind of a passion.  But the other thing is about being practical.  I don’t think there is any one church that is big enough to do that.

Q.  That’s so true.

A.  So if the goal is to transform communities with the gospel, it’s not possible to do that with one church in one community.  My experience Paul is I got saved in Toronto and eventually bought a house and moved to Brantford.  We continued to worship in Toronto for a while as we were winning souls and bringing them to Toronto.  Eventually it didn’t make sense because we couldn’t bring the people to Toronto, especially at that time there was no highway 410.  

Q.  Okay.

A.  So taking the Kennedy Road and the 401 and all that.  So eventually it didn’t make sense.  So we started a small group, discipled them there and it eventually grew into a church.  So thinking that people may have the same problem that we had and so I believe that church planting is about accessibility so McDonald’s is an example.  There is no mega McDonald’s.  Right?

Q.  That’s true.

A.  They have one in every community because you can experience McDonald’s in that community. 

Q.  Yes.

A.  There are also other practical reasons with overhead and all that.  But that is basically why I got into church planting.

Q.  They have said stuff like, and I can’t remember where I read this, but people won’t go to a gym unless it’s within a ten-minute drive or five-minute drive.  I can’t remember what it is.  So convenience is important.  But even what I like more about it is that you need a missional outpost in those communities.

A.  That’s right.

Q.  We need the lighthouses.  We need those places of influence.  But just give us an idea.  I won’t say how many ---

Well, I’ll let you say how many years you are doing it.  How many churches have you planted over how many years?

A.  Well, I’ve been in the church now, or ministry, for twenty-seven years, the last twenty-four of which with PAOC.  Twenty-five, sorry.  So I’ve been in the ministry twenty-seven years and I’ve planted and established fourteen churches.  I’ve been part of planting or establishing churches; fourteen of them.

Q.  I just want everyone to just kind of take that in that these churches are still going today.  Correct?

A.  Yes.  The others we have –

I believe I’ll be talking about that a little bit later, the models we are using.

Q.  Yes.

A.  Yes, they are.

Q.  So you planted fourteen churches successfully and all of them are still going today.  That is, when you think about it Pastor Jerry, that is a lot of churches.  That’s almost like one every two years!

A.  Yes.

Q.  Okay.  So now you’ve got the audience curious.  You’ve got me curious.  I’ve heard some of your story.  What are the models that you used and that you are now using?

A.  Okay.  Well, in the last ---

Twenty-seven years ago we really didn’t have a church model.

Q.  No, that’s true.

A.  Church plant model to follow.  Okay?  So first of all I didn’t come from a Christian home, you know, so I didn’t have the Bible College education and all that so I really didn’t know even what church planting is and all that.  So in the beginning our church planting was more like an institution.  It was structured and governed like an organization.  Eventually we released the first five churches and began again with a different model.  So now we follow the book of Acts, when the disciples actually met in homes, they were in small groups, they grew the church naturally.  So that’s what we started to do.  We started to have small groups and grow the church naturally.  

But we governed them really like a mother church, the mother church model.  So everything started from us.  So we were doing satellite church plants.  Others call them, maybe, campuses.

Q.  Yes.

A.  In the last ten years though we transitioned again to more of a kingdom culture rather than a church culture.  We really don’t fit into a certain church planting model but I can call it maybe an apostolic church plant.  Okay?

Q.  Okay.

A.  The emphasis is on people being discipled and being able to raise sons in the house and release them into kingdom purpose.  So we want to be able to raise sons that can reflect and represent Christ and release them with that kingdom purpose also.  So the church is no longer dependent on the mother church.  They grow to become independent while maintaining a strong relationship that brings accountability and order.  And then they are equipped to give birth to new churches.

So we have now become more of a resource church than a mother church.  So we have transitioned.  So we kept changing, you know, over the years.

Q.  Yes.  So there’s a couple ---

I’ve got a thousand questions right now.  Even though I’ve heard your presentations I just, as you talk about it again, I just think it’s a great model that anybody can do.  Start that small group.  But you have to be evangelistic right off the bat.  You grow the church through new believers.

A.  Yes.

Q.  Right?  Is that correct?  You teach that small group.  You’ve got to grow the church through new believers.  Is that correct?

A.  That is right.  That is how you are able to do that.  And you’ve got to reach them in that community.

Q.  Right.  And you’re going to reach them in that community.  Then they kind of get into a bigger group gathering and at some point they get established and become their own kind of church relationally connected back to the main, the mother church.  Right.

A.  Um-hmm.

Q.  I think that’s a nice progression for pastors out there thinking ---

Maybe they want to skip the small group step.  Maybe they want to send people.  But this idea of having a multi-site that grows to its kind of own church I think is a great model.

Why don’t you talk a little bit about that and what success you have found there?

A.  Well, I’m not sure that we’re successful yet.  I’m not sure if it is really working so well yet.  But we’ve got a lot of challenges that we face every step of the way.  So I think we still have a long way to go.  We are still learning while growing.

But there are things that we are doing that I think are working that we can celebrate.  So let me just share a few of those.  First of all, we’re kind of open to change.  We’ve got to keep changing.

Q.  Yes.

A.  We are open to change and adapt to our changing culture.

Q.  That’s a good word.

A.  So I think that is what we have learned over the years we can’t have just a model and say this is the way it is supposed to be done.  We kept changing as we saw the need, we started changing, we started changing structures, we kept changing and we’re still changing.  So that’s why over the last twenty-seven years we’ve seen so many changes in the way we were planting in the church.  

And the other thing is that we empower our leaders.  I think that is what we’re doing well.  We’re empowering the leaders.  We raised most pastors now.  We have more preachers, more leaders, to make their own decisions to reach their community.  So rather than all depending on me, right, in that kind of a model, they are now doing their own thing reaching their community.  They know what is best for their community.  They know the messages they have to bring to their community rather than maybe just listening to me preach on Sunday through a multi-cast or whatever.  We’re able to empower more leaders and I think that works well for us.

The other thing is that we have a shared vision.

Q.  Yes.

A.  That’s working for us because the burden is not only on us but every church is thinking about multiplication.  So they have a burden also to multiply.  They see there is a model that can be done and we made it simple enough that it can be done by anyone.  So now people want to do that.  I think that’s working and that’s where I think we’ve been successful in what we’re trying to do.  

And of course we’re learning some more.

Q.  Wow.  You are so humble about it.  There’s churches out there that are just going I need a leadership pipeline.  We want to be a multiplying church and we can’t find leaders but you are raising them up within your church.

A.  Right.

Q.  One of the things, just as a point of clarification, when you use the word sons you are talking about both men and women.  Right?

A.  That’s right.  Yes.

Q.  Because you have lots of leaders that are church planting, some powerful women of God that are leading and speaking and doing all the things.

A.  That’s right.

Q.  So that’s another thing, too, that we could probably do a bit better at, just really calling forth some of these women in our church that just have the call the lead.

A.  That’s right.

Q.  I love the leadership pipeline.  I love your alignment.  You are raising up leaders in the house.  

My question, and I just thought about this, why not just stay in houses?  Do you know what I’m saying?  Eventually you end up being on Sunday morning gatherings but I’m not saying one is better than the other.  I’m just saying, just from your standpoint, you are starting in houses, you are seeing some success, why not just kind of multiply the houses, maybe talk a bit ---

A.  Yes.  Sorry.  I think because there is a dynamic in being able to worship together as a congregation so that brings unity and that we’re able to worship God together and be able to see that same vision.  Because when you have too many ---

Even our satellites having different churches it is really hard to kind of bring that vision together.

Q.  Yes.

A.  So in the same way if we look at the local church if you’ve got all these life groups or small groups they need to come together so that they are able to share the vision together, you can communicate and bring unity.  And it does have a biblical example.  They met in homes and they met in temple courts.

Q.  Um-hmm.

A.  So they had the small group and then the large gathering.  So I think that’s important as well.

Q.  Yes, that’s a great answer.  I think bigger churches are trying to get small and smaller churches are trying to get big and they are both good, you know.

A.  (Laughter)

Q.  The bigger churches have to get the small groups going and the smaller churches are going yes, we’ve got small groups but we want to reach the community and on and on and on.  Great thought there about why.

Here’s what I’m discovering.  It is more both-and.

A.  That’s right.

Q.  It’s not either/or.

A.  And I think when you also ---

That’s why there’s an emphasis that we need to grow the church because you can’t make an impact in a community when you are very small.  You need to also grow the church so that you will be able to make a difference in that community.

Q.  Certainly.

A.  You can’t be fragmented.

Q.  No, you can’t be fragmented.  I like the alignment piece.  That’s a big part.

So why is church planting working so well in your context?  You have explained some things but why don’t you talk to us a little bit about the burden, because I think that’s ---

You mentioned it but that word stood out to me that all of your churches have the same vision and the same burden.  How did you get them to feel that, come alongside, probably not easily, but ---

A.  I think it is very difficult.  That’s why it is very important I think to transition the church through more the culture of the church.  It’s hard to just teach that.  You need to really get involved in the lives of all the people in the congregation.  So it takes a while to get that culture thinking this way.  So you need to be really focused.  I always say that you can’t produce a son or a daughter from the pulpit.  You can’t do that.  You’ve got to walk with them.  So it takes time but, you know, when we’re able to do it ---

So we had to first change the culture of the church where people are beginning now to align themselves with what is the kingdom, not just a gathering.  So we can just be an audience or we can be the army of God.  That’s a big difference in how the church looks like.  Right?

Q.  Yes.

A.  So when people start to see themselves as: I am a child of God, I have a purpose, then collectively they start to think this way now.  It grows over time so if you don’t start now it’s going to be a repeat of the same thing.  So I think we had to transition the church to start thinking kingdom.

Q.  Yes.

And you have a pretty clear discipleship process, don’t you?

A.  That’s right.

Q.  Like for all of your leaders if you are doing leadership in any capacity there’s a pretty clear ---

A.  Yes.

Q.  How important has that been for you guys?

A.  Well, because we always lack leaders, right, and when we talk about the leadership pipeline, we can’t produce enough.  So we always have to be thinking about how do we raise up leaders.  So one of the things that we’ve done that I’ve seen work is that we created, aside from the other ministry leadership training that we do, we did a full-time one-on-one leadership school.  And that was just to train people from 18-35 who are still fresh.  They are now in leadership and to give them a full-time understanding, to be there full-time, so we can really pour into them because we are going to need them to be able to rise up.  That is very important.  We make sure that we do that.

Q.  Yes.  I just love the fact that you guys have that leadership pathway for them.  Here’s the clear steps moving forward.

One of the things that we’re focusing on in September for the Multiply Network is some of the newer churches that have been started.  You have a couple in your kind of network in your church.  Why don’t you talk a little bit about those two because I was quite excited when I was chatting with you recently and you told me about them.  So why don’t you tell our group what’s happening in your church?

A.  Yes, okay.  Well, I’m excited about them because, well, the first one is our Durham Church plant.  This is led by Nicole and Elena Beleazar. This is in Oshawa actually, about one hour, for those listeners that we have, one hour east of Toronto.  It was started in July last year, okay, so it celebrated a one-year anniversary this July.  But this is how it started.  This is the most exciting.  We in Brampton, our church in Brampton, planted a church in Toronto.  Then Toronto planted a church in Scarborough.  They were releasing about thirty people.  That Scarborough church grew to about two hundred.  So then they released about thirty and planted Durham.

Q.  Okay.  That’s so great!

A.  But here’s how it worked.  It started one year before that when they were already reaching out to that community.  All right?  So there were already people coming there.  They were doing small groups there.  So after they had been doing it they were bringing them to Scarborough.  So now it became natural to say hey, you don’t need to come here.  We can just start it over there.  So get trained.  So now they average about forty fifty people and are actively reaching that community.  They are only a one-year-old church.  So we have a strong base now of about forty or fifty regular people who are sons and daughters in the house.  We are actively reaching that community over there.

Q.  Wow.  That’s four generations?

A.  Yes.

Q.  Brampton to Toronto, Toronto to Scarborough, Scarborough to Durham.

A.  Yes.

Q.  Wow.  That’s so great.

A.  It is not dependent on us.  It is the other churches.

Q.  I hope that is encouraging some people out there that are thinking multi-site and thinking maybe if you are a campus pastor, a multi-site pastor and you are thinking is it possible to grow a multi-site?  Well, you’ve just heard it here first folks from first principles.  It is possible.  Obviously we know it is but it’s great to have a real life story in our group.

So the other one?  Or go ahead.

A.  The newest one is the one in Exeter.  This is one hour west of London, Ontario.  It will launch in July of this year.  We planted the London church, again Brampton planted the London church and then London planted the Exeter.  This is actually led by Joseph and Loli Rosano. Again, it started a year before that because a couple started a small group in that area and started counselling them, winning souls and that grew.  They continued to come to the London church so they would bring them to London and they were doing the small groups over there.  So eventually they started worshiping in Exeter.  So they now average about fifty to sixty people.

Q.  Wow!

A.  So we launched it in July of this year so they are only a couple of months old but they are doing very well.  But you know what is more exciting about these two churches is that they were not led by pastors or planted by pastors.  They were planted and led by leaders in the church.  Okay?

Q.  C’mon.

A.  They oversee fifty to a hundred people and they are not full time.  Okay?

Q.  Wow.

A.  Our only involvement is training and coaching and providing resources.  But these people, you know, I really admire these people because they are working, they have their jobs but they have to counsel, raise up leaders, they have to develop the small groups, like this one, the recent one, Exeter, they have about five or six small group leaders and they’re running it.  We don’t call them the traditional “pastor” yet but they are pastoring the church.  But they are not full-time and that is what is exciting to me.  Because we have now broken through to see that now we can do church multiplication with leaders that they don’t need to be a pastor to get started.

Q.  Yes.  And what you mean in the formal way with formal education, but many of them probably have the pastoral gift.

A.  That’s right, yes.

With that they know that hey, you know, they didn’t have a Bible College training and they were not ordained yet, but they cared for people.  People see them as people who have been with Jesus.

Q.  Yes, yes.

A.  They minister to them, counsel them, grow them, win them to the Lord and so that grew.  Eventually that kind of thing transitions and people become the pastor of that church and sometimes some other person is raised up.  In Scarborough, for example, it was started by a person from our Toronto at that time and eventually somebody raised up from within and became the pastor of that church.

Q.  Okay.

A.  So it could be different when you are gifted different.

Q.  Is there a certain number that you guys have in your head that you go, well, once you hit the 150, once you hit 250, you know, like or is it just really dependent on the leadership team at that site?

A.  I think primarily it is dependent on the leadership, but there are certain guidelines.  I think that when you reach about 200, about 150 to 200, I think you need to be thinking already about planting.

Q.  Yes.

A.  Because at that time you have enough, hopefully you’ve been raising up leaders during that time, you have enough people who are saying hey, I can do something, so you can release them and get them ready to develop another church.

But prior to that I think what is important in a church world is up to 200 you’ve got to build momentum and you’ve got to be winning souls, winning souls.   Sometimes we get clogged up with so many programs before anything so we need to grow the church up to 200 first before we have all of these other programs and then plant the church.

I think it depends also on the leadership, of course.

Q.  Yes.  And the culture, the culture you created.  You know, some of the stuff you’re saying is just so rich.  I told you this before.  You should write a book.  I know you keep laughing every time we meet I tell you: You should write a book, you should write this stuff down.  Because it seems simple but it is so profound that you built a culture, and for those who are in the journey in existing church ministry, your church for a while didn’t have this kingdom culture, you know, for a time it didn’t.  You had to work at it.  You had to shift.  You had to let people move on.  You said your first five churches you needed to do that because it would have been too hard to shift the whole church.  You had to kind of hit a reset button.

A.  The reset. 

Q.  Yes.  That was a pretty courageous move in my opinion to just kind of send ---

Hey, we’re going to bless you and send you off.  But hey, we’re going to reset because we need a new culture because we need to multiply and we can’t ---

That’s a courageous leadership step and I honour you for that.

A.  Thank you.

Q.  So write a book, would you?

A.  (Laughter)

Q.  You know every time we see each other I will probably say something.

A.  Oh boy.

Q.  So what would you say to some of our leaders, senior pastors out there thinking about church multiplication?  How could you encourage them?  What is in your heart today to speak to some of those leaders out there?

A.  Well, I would tell them what I would tell all of our churches, the pastors in our churches and also to other pastors whenever I see them in conferences and whatever.  I would say that first to seriously think about what they are doing in light of the Great Commission, because I had to confront myself and what I’m doing.  In thinking about the Great Commission am I doing what I need to be doing?  So the question is are we building an audience in our community or are we building an army to reach the nation?  So we need to grow our local church but we also need to reach the nation.  I believe that church multiplication is still the best way to disciple a nation.

Q. Yes.

A.  We need to give access to the gospel in other communities, not only through technology but alive worship where people can get involved, they can be a part of, they can serve.

Q.  Yes.

A.  So that can only be done through multiplication of churches.  And then the other thing I would say is be open to change.  If what we’re doing is not seeing the results that we want then let’s change it.  Somebody says we can’t change.  We are always teaching our congregation to change.  Then we as leaders and pastors, sometimes we have to change our methods and things that we’ve been doing before.  I always have ---

What keeps me in check, Paul, is I have children who have grown in the ministry and they are part of the church.  One of my daughters is a pastor in the church and one is a director in worship, so I always ask them: what do we need to change, what are the things that we need to do as we’re reaching out in this culture, this community?  So be open to change to see that maybe some methods need to be changing so that we can continue to fulfill the Great Commission.

And finally think about our legacy.

Q.  Yes.

A.  What are we leaving behind?  You know, I think about this, Paul.  Even if we don’t finish what we started it would be great if we could position our church for multiplication.

Q.  Yes.

A.  If you don’t start, right?

Some of us are already five years behind because the youth are already there, the young adults are already next in line.  But we need to start really positioning the church already for multiplication, already talking to them about what we see the church to be.  So we’ve got to do it now.  If we don’t do it now it’s another year late. Right?

Q.  Yes.

A.  So it’s very important that we think about that legacy.  Some of us have been thinking about it for a long time so don’t over analyze the process.  Just get started!  Sometimes we analyze it so much and we never get started.

Q.  Yes.

A.  I saw a quote one time.  It said: The hardest thing to do is to get started.  

Q.  Yes.

A.  It’s true.  Just get started.  If you are thinking of doing church multiplication, just get started doing something about it.  Start small with something.  But I think we need to do that.

Q.  And that kind of leads into the next question a little bit because I like to give our podcast guests the opportunity.  Obviously speaking from a Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada perspective, I know there are other people who have come up and told me, saying hey, I’m listening to your podcast.  We’re from another Fellowship or whatever.  But are leaders in that Fellowship.  So what would you say to our group and to other tribes out there that have a heart to multiply, from somebody who I think is doing it at a local church level, what would you say to us as a group nationally?  What are some of the things that we need to do to get our Movement moving forward with church multiplication?

A.  Well, first I would say do more of what we are doing now in church multiplication.  I think that you’re doing a great job.  What you’re doing is a great idea that somehow some people thought about that, to put that in place and put you there.  We should continue to do that and develop it because it’s a great resource for people out there to be thinking about church multiplication.  Somebody has to champion that and you’re doing a good job doing that.  So I think that as a Movement that’s a great thing so you need to keep doing that.

Q.  Yes.

A.  The other thing I will say is, out of respect and love for the Fellowship, because I was credentialed in 1994 in the PAOC, so that’s twenty-five years I’ve been with PAOC.  What I’m saying is from my experience in the Fellowship.  So here’s the thing I would say.  We need to revisit our governance regarding church planting, meaning how do we govern church plants.

Q.  Okay.

A.  I think the Districts are still operating the way it was when the Fellowship first started.  I feel it is still very much territorial, which can be an obstacle to church planting.  And because of the system sometimes it discourages church planting, a church planter from planting in another District or another province, you know, whatever.  So if you’re coming from a different Fellowship that becomes a hindrance.

But the reality is we live in a global economy and society.  An entrepreneur can start a business in Toronto and be instantly global and have customers around the world.

Q.  That’s true.

A.  So there are no longer borders, especially with social media.  Right?  We need the borders and structure to bring order but accountability is stronger through relationships rather than structure.  If we keep enforcing structure we can suppress creativity and expansion.

Q.  Yes.  Much of what you’re talking about I’m feeling, you know, that there has to be some shifts.  I know our leadership are talking about that.  I know other groups at their leadership levels are saying, okay, so what are the changes that need to be made at a  governance level, you know another one would be credentialing, you know how do we credential the pastors that you are raising up to plant these churches, where’s the credentials, is there a new track, do we create some ---

These are good discussion points I think and I don’t know if there’s an easy answer and I don’t think you are suggesting there is.  But there has to be, there needs to be some changes moving forward to help encourage church multiplications.  So, yes.

Any other comments?

A.  You see, I had a conversation regarding a church plant in a province before and I was told there was no way a person in Brampton can oversee a church in this province.  And they said that’s why we have districts.

Q.  Yes.

A.  And so my answer was that the apostle Paul did it without email, Facebook, Zoom, WhatsApp, whatever.  So I mean he governed the church in Galatia, Ephesus, Corinth, I mean ---

And he had to ride in boats and deliver the mail, a letter.  So I’m thinking with the technology that we have how can we not oversee these churches, how can we not?  So I think we need to have partnerships in districts that allow church planters to be able to continue doing that.  I think that is the way to move forward.

You know, I’m blessed to hear our Fellowship has this 2020 vision.  Let’s do this and church plant all across the country.  The implementation is where we’re going to ---

We need to do that and I think we need to be thinking what do we need to do and we need to start doing something about it so that people are encouraged rather than discouraged in doing.  Because some people, their connections may be in another province, not just in the neighbourhood.  Maybe they have a number of connections somehow and they could easily plant a church somewhere else.

Q.  Right.

A.  So if we have the partnerships that would be great.

Q.  Well, I can tell you that is something that I’m looking for.  I think our Assemblies of God friends in the US have a model that I think is working, that we’re trying to figure out how can we overlay that with our (something), which I think would answer some of your questions.

But it’s not as easy as you would think or as straightforward.  I know you have run into those things.  

Those are really good thoughts, Jerry.  Thanks so much for doing that. 

We like to end our podcast usually with some rapid fire questions, if you don’t mind.

A.  Okay.

Q.  So they are questions I don’t send ahead.  Some of them I do, as you know, but maybe we’ll start off with this one.

What’s a good book you’ve read recently?

A.  Oh, this book is called ---

Developing Leaders.  No.  Oh, the title.  This book that I was reading is written by ---

I’m having a mental block.

Q.  Okay.  We’ll come back to it.

A.  We’ll come back.  That book is really about developing leaders and it is from every nation.  He wrote this book and I’m reading about it, I just started reading about it actually because it was in the line of developing and looking, the title, but it was about that and it was developing leaders, looking for ---

How do you develop leadership today.  We’re always short of it.

Q.  Yes.  That’s good.  Leadership.  So you’re reading stuff on leadership development right now.

A.  Yes, yes.

Q.  Do you listen to podcasts?

A.  Yes.

Q.  Who do you listen to?

A.  I listen to Craig Groeschel.

Q.  Yes.

A.  I listen to some of his leadership podcasts.  I get a lot from that.

Q.  If you could have a favourite supper, someone is taking you out for dinner, where are they taking you?  What is your favourite meal?

A.  Ribs.

Q.  You like ribs?  Nice.

A.  (Laughter)

Q.  Not lobster?

A.  Well, I like lobster.  I like it a lot.  But I like ribs, too.

Q.  That’s good.  Do you watch any sports?

A.  Yes.

Q.  What is your favourite sport and team?

A.  My favourite sport is golf.

Q.  Oh.

A.  I don’t get to watch much golf.  I watch basketball at times, when it’s the championship.

Q.  Of course.

A.  I don’t get much time to watch these things.

Q.  But you are a fan.

A.  Yes.

Q.  Maybe we’ll end with this last question.  What are younger leaders teaching you these days?

A.  I think they are teaching me more about how to listen, you know, because they have some things to say and a lot of the things they say are very valuable, especially in the things they are doing in the church.  So I find that when I’m talking with younger leaders they are teaching me to listen and learn.  Because we tend to talk more and tell more but we need to listen more to them and what they are saying about the generation in front of us right now.

Q.  That is a great thought to end on.  Thanks so much, Pastor Jerry.  Man, you just have enriched me again today and I know the listeners with experience.  You are not talking about theory.  You are living it.

A.  Yes.

Q.  So keep going and we’re believing for our best days in Canada ahead.  Amen?

A.  Amen.

Q.  C’mon.

A.  Thank you, Paul, for having me and to all the listeners, God bless you all.

Q.  Yes.  Thanks so much.

--- End of Recording