Late Life Lesbians: I Thought You Liked Guys! Coming Out at 30+

COVID hit and women who had been living a fairly conventional heteronormative life started coming out of the closet as lesbian, bisexual, and queer. How is it that so many women could suddenly realize they were lesbians after the age of 30? Pleasure coach and sex educator Whitney Miller sits down with me to answer all of the questions and help women in this situation and the people who love them find a way to move forward and find their place in the LGBTQ community.

•  In this episode you will find out:
•  What a late blooming lesbian is
• Why some women don’t realize they are queer until midlife
• How the LGBTQ community responds to late blooming lesbians and bisexual women
• And what late blooming lesbians and bisexual women should do once they’ve realized they are queer

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 1:24

Do the sex Think fun, honest and feminist as fuck, and always with the goal of fighting the patriarchy. One female orgasm at a time. Welcome to the locker room. Today's locker room talk topic is late in life lesbians. What's up with all these chicks coming out gay after whatever 30, 35? If you've been on social media, if you've been reading the news, then you've likely heard about this phenomena, which is women coming out gay, lesbian, queer later in life. We're talking mid-30s, 40s and beyond. What's the deal? That's the question, and my guest today is going to help answer that question.

Speaker 1: 2:20

My guest is Whitney Miller. She is a pleasure coach and CEO of BDE Moves, which focuses on sex education and pleasure coaching that specializes in queer sex and relational communication. She is trauma-informed and kink-informed and utilizes her yoga philosophy background to facilitate healing that empowers her clients to own their pleasure. Yay, yay, yes. Her goal is to expand your knowledge and understanding of intimacy, sex, arousal, desire and all the in-between, ultimately creating a judgment-free space for humans to feel safe, being curious, which is wonderful, I think on my you know, I champion that a hundred percent, whitney, can you? You have been on this podcast before, but I'd love for you to reintroduce yourself to my listeners.

Speaker 2: 3:14

Yeah, so you've done a beautiful job. These days I'm mostly a queer couples intimacy coach, so I help coach people in relational communication and help them with conflict resolution so they can build strong connections. And once you feel safe and connected, you usually want to celebrate that with really great sex. It just kind of cultivates naturally in that environment. So that's what I do, it's my passion.

Speaker 1: 3:37

So then, you are very familiar with, well obviously, lesbians and queer people all around, but um this, this phenomena that we are going to talk about, which is lots of women coming out. As you know, I we're going to talk about late and like lesbians specifically, but I want to by hands like yeah um and I mean I am.

Speaker 1: 4:08

I've always known that I I'm queer. I've known since I was a teenager, so for me I don't qualify as later in life. Um, although I've done a lot, uh, my own journey in the queer world as a later in life person. So let's dive in. And, uh, I'm excited to have you answer some questions for everybody, because I know there's lots of questions out there and we are going to fully understand this phenomena by the end of this podcast, but hopefully also for maybe some women out there, people out there who are thinking I think I might be like I'm getting the tingle when I think about women and I'm like 30 or 40, like what the fuck is up. Maybe by the end you can help them figure out how to figure it out, right, yeah, so stay to the end for that. That's what we're going to end with. Well, let's get ready to talk about being queer Cheers.

Speaker 2: 5:04

I love it, cheers.

Speaker 1: 5:06

All right. Well, I'm excited about this conversation. Well, as I said before, I've always known that I was queer. I identified as bi as a teenager. However, at that time I kind of didn't do much with it. It was like the 90s and I dated men primarily just because it was easy. So it wasn't until I was in my late 30s that I really got to start exploring being queer. I was single. I was like in Portland Oregon, there were queer folks all around me and I was like this is it I'm gonna explore. So I have some experience that way and a lot of questions that I think will fit into this. But let's just start with what is a late in life lesbian? Can you just explain that to my listeners?

Speaker 2: 5:54

Absolutely so the thing that comes up because I coach a lot of these late blooming lesbians and I have a Facebook group where I witnessed the questions that they ask, and so the big thing with me is like I don't see them as late bloomers at all. I think they're right on time. I think that you self-actualize at the rate that your nervous system can regulate to it, otherwise it would just shut you down if you came out before then. But this term came out around COVID, when we were all shut in our homes, and then you really got introspective because you didn't go to work, you didn't go anywhere, and that man that you thought that you were attracted to is with you all the time. And now it's like I don't like the way he smells, I don't like, I don't like having sex with him, you know. And then all of a sudden there's like TikTok throwing these thirst traps at you and these women are like, oh, I'm feeling some things and I don't have a job to go to to distract me. So there was like less distraction. There was more mindfulness created in that absence of distractions. So this thing that women usually don't get a chance to do, which is observe themselves and ask themselves do I like this? Does this feel good to me? Like, then they're put in that position and so that's what I see is like then they're coming out so late in life is just saying I came out after adolescence.

Speaker 2: 7:13

The thing that most like people like, let's say, cis men they get more of a chance to like, go through that in their adolescence than women do. Women are told cover up, shut up, appease, make everyone else around you comfortable. That's your way of life. And men are told to like try things. See, you know, I know that like trying homosexual sex is frowned upon for men, like I read that in the social soup. But women are not taught, you know, they're not encouraged to explore sexuality. They're taught. Encouraged to explore sexuality, they're taught to stuff it down and that that's not even a feminine thing for you to want sex in the first place. It's like have you ever seen a man be called a nympho?

Speaker 2: 7:57

No, no, that's a word that's preserved for women, women who like sex are called nymphos, they're called whores, they're called hysterical, they're called names, they're ostracized, they're put down. So sexuality and the exploration of that for women and femmes is like no, that's not for you. You're just supposed to provide that for men because they need it and you supply it, but you don't have your own desires, you don't have your own wants, your own pleasure. You don't have your own wants, your own pleasure. So I think that COVID put us in that place where we sit down and go what about me? What about me?

Speaker 2: 8:30

And then, like I see the age range that this happens like 35, 40. That's usually the decline of estrogen. So as estrogen declines, your give a fuck declines, it's just what happens. As it gets lower, you care less about what other people think about you and then you start thinking about yourself. So it's just kind of like the perfect storm being shut up in the house. Your estrogen is going down, your give a fuck is the high you know is going down and you're like it's my time and I want to fuck women.

Speaker 1: 9:01

That's what happened to a lot of them I mean I do think that you you have there's a great point there that thirst traps on TikTok man. Like that was about when? Because I had always kind of and it's almost embarrassing for me to say this now as far as I've come but there was a time when I was very much like I am into cis men and I'm into cis women and I, like you know women who are feminine, I like men who are masculine, and then, and that had shifted quite a bit. But then then TikTok, thirst traps came along and I was like, holy shit, I'm really into androgyny and I mean it.

Speaker 1: 9:41

It revolutionized and changed what my knowledge of my attraction and what lit me up with desire. And I think you're right, I had time and access to see so many different types of human beings basically share themselves as sexy people on, you know, on and out. So women are coming out in their, let's say, 30, 35, 40 as lesbians and some of them are just straight. They aren't like I'm queer, they're just like I'm just a lesbian, right?

Speaker 2: 10:21

They go straight to that all the way to the other end.

Speaker 1: 10:25

if you want to think of it as two ends, which we probably shouldn't, it's a spectrum, it's a spectrum right. But so then people are like so what? You had a husband. You fucked all these men this part of your life. So what are you? So what? You didn't like any of them. You weren't attracted to any of them the whole time. You just wanted women. That is the question, I'm sure they get bombarded with. What is your rebuttal to that? I mean, were they not attracted to or enjoying the sex the whole time?

Speaker 2: 11:06

or enjoying the sex the whole time. The funny thing about attraction is it's really this subtle thing that's really hard to describe outside of yourself and your own experience of it. And I think for women again, it goes back to those sociocultural soup that we're swimming in like women are not taught to be introspective about what attraction feels like it's like. For so long in my adolescence I got real confused because my friends were attracted to these men and like I tried to be like I tried really hard because that would make me normal and you know that would make my grandma stop being like you're going to hell. But it's like it's one thing where you admire someone and another thing when you're attracted to them. And I think that gets crossed up a lot because women will be like well, I thought I admired that girl in high school. It turns out I really just wanted to make out with her and like I thought I was attracted to this man but really I just admired what he did to my perception of my idea of success in life.

Speaker 2: 12:01

Because we're taught that success in life is to grow up and marry a man. I was told to grow up and marry a rich man. That's what I was told my whole childhood as a little girl. That was positioned as success to me Not grow up and be a doctor, grow up and marry a doctor. So women are conditioned to go out into the world and what is attractive to them not necessarily sexually attractive, but attractive in the form of this secures me safety in this society that will ostracize me otherwise. So they'll pick a guy, a nice guy you know, and they'll get the white picket fence and the golden retriever and two and a half children in the car out in the driveway and then they're still not happy and they go. I don't, I don't know what I did wrong. What was it? And if they forgot to look in the mirror and go, do I like any of this Right?

Speaker 1: 12:45

Really like it, really like it.

Speaker 2: 12:48

Or do. I just like the way people aren't judging me anymore because I did what I was supposed to do, right. So it's like hiding from judgment and actually living your authentic life are two totally different things.

Speaker 1: 13:01

Right, and if you've never experienced a real attraction or pleasure or connection, then it's easy to mistake other experiences for those things In some cases, is it? You know sexuality can be fluid. Could it be that earlier in life they were attracted to? I know for myself and look, my fluidity and my sexuality. I'm telling you like it's a week by week, day by day, like what I am. One day I'll be, like I will just be like fuck, like dudes are really hot to me right now. I want you know and this kind of guy, and then the next day I'll be like the idea of touching a man makes me want to retch, but I'm really excited about this thing. Like I fluctuate wildly, which has always been my story. But I know some people really move from one's sexual orientation at one point in their life to a completely different one, and so is that part of the phenomena.

Speaker 2: 15:05

It could be. And I mean, if you really look at attraction closely, it's more about the energy that's created from someone than the shell that they're in. So whether they're a man, a woman, a non-binary person, a trans person, it doesn't really matter. What matters is like what that means to you. Like some people will push away their attraction for someone because it doesn't align the way they want to be perceived out in the world.

Speaker 2: 15:27

They'll be like oh, no, I'm not attracted to that person, but inside they really are and I agree with you, I think it's a lot more fluid than we talk about. It's a lot more fluid than we talk about. I mean, I was at a restaurant with my wife and the owner of the restaurant was this beautiful, like Filipino trans man, and like I'm not really attracted to masculine energy that often, but the way he was like carrying himself with this confidence and he had lesbian hands and he's just like very confident and cool and collected and I find myself just like very attracted to that energy. Like you're confident, you carry yourself with a security, easygoing, I'm like that's, that's hot.

Speaker 1: 16:10

Yeah, sometimes it just sneaks up on you and surprises you, you know For sure and you're like, and then it opens a little door, like for me it's like one. I'm one thirst trap away from being into something new. I'm like it just has to be like one person that I see or that for some reason you know that is in a presentation or an energy that I have not thought of myself as being attracted to, to like meet them and have a spark. And then it's like all right, I'm in.

Speaker 1: 16:42

This is great. So there are several different things that can attribute to this phenomena. First of all, women who just never allowed themselves or were aware of what it really meant to feel attracted to someone else and to to be truly into and turned on by someone else. Women who, for whatever reason, had the sexual fluidity, um, that led them there Is. It are there any other things out there, or people say well, just like really craving to be understood.

Speaker 2: 17:24

And I think sometimes women deeply feel like, oh, if I get in a relationship with another woman, like she'll get me, she'll understand me, and to an extent that is right. But, like, queer people have the same and not that every queer couple is like same sex but like the ones that are, they still get into the same tiffs and stuff. You know that heterosexual people do so it's not an escape from the bullshit Like you still going to get ghosted. You know it's going to happen. Yes, you are. Yes, yes, you are, it's gonna happen. Yes, you are. Yes, yes, you are. Yes, women will ghost you. They're emotionally unavailable women. I know, I chased a lot of them, a lot of them, especially when you're the, the gay woman who thinks you're going to turn the straight women. Like if, if a straight woman is hooking up with you, she is fetishizing you. Like just just know that you're being objectified and fetishized and go with it.

Speaker 2: 18:16

Yes, you are Because she's in love with you. Like, let it go.

Speaker 1: 18:21

Oh man, so many I've been with so many straight women who have yeah, yeah, it's fun, fun. Just make sure that they're actually, when they're late in life lesbians. They're actually late in life lesbians, which brings me to just me saying. That makes me feel a little disappointed in myself. However, comma, the truth is as a queer, a lifelong queer woman, A.

Speaker 1: 18:49

I would argue women ghost more than men. I've been ghost. I don't get ghosted by men very often because they're really working for it. Women, I find in the dating arena, are far more likely to start the conversation and then gone.

Speaker 2: 19:07

Yes, and it's not always malicious. They get anxious. I talk to them on the other side, they're like I don't know what to say. I don't know what to do. I'm like just talk like you're making a friend. Like don't talk like it's going to be your wife. Like lower the stakes, bring it down a notch. Yeah, we're conditioned to appease the other person. So we feel like, well, what if I'm not attracted to them? Then I have to tell them that so you don't waste their time.

Speaker 2: 19:34

But it's hard exactly like the social conditioning is hard. But like what you're speaking to it, like it brings up the like the gatekeeping that kind of happens in the queer community because you know the elder queers are like oh, you're new here and you've never had sex with a woman before, so I need to like put you through the paces and all this and it's like on both sides I can understand it because it's like I've chased straight women before and it's heart-wrenching well, I mean as a bi woman there I I, you know, I get that it's the

Speaker 1: 20:06

same thing, the gatekeeping. But then, as a bi woman, you have, you know, these later in life queer women, lesbians, who want to date me, and then I have one day where I'm like, oh, you're straight, this is never going anywhere. But so this brings me to the next question, which is well, first of all, what? How is the experience of coming out different for late in life lesbians and queer people than it is for you know, like, let's say, you more so than I coming out earlier? And then what are the like unique challenges for these later in life lesbians? One would be obviously people like me going are you really queer? Do I want to, like take a chance with you, because I've already dealt with, you know, the straight woman who says she's bi, and then you know she really wants a guy yes.

Speaker 2: 21:11

So it's like the queer community is a traumatized community. Like being queer in a heteronormative world puts a amount of trauma on you just with that. And that's saying that like your family accepted you when you come out, a lot of us didn't get that, so your families ostracize you. So you've already got like those abandonment triggers in you. So I can understand where the gatekeeping comes from. It. Just it's hard because I also see the late blooming lesbians and they're like I'm not welcome anywhere. You know any facebook group that you call late blooming lesbian, late in lifer. They flop because they're seeking a community where they're safe, because the queer community is not always safe for them, it is not always kind. And especially these gold star lesbians that think it's a trophy because there's never been a dick in them. Like hello purity culture wrapped in a rainbow flag. Hate that shit.

Speaker 1: 22:03

I'm gonna judge somebody off their body count I can only pause for one second on that. Let's talk about body count in the queer, specifically queer femme world. Maybe it's a little off topic, but not so much because it comes. We think of it as a guy, a cis man versus cis woman thing, this body count issue. But I'm telling you right now as a queer woman, it is prevalent, especially among lesbian and queer femmes. So can you speak to it a little bit?

Speaker 2: 22:46

It just reeks of my experience of an evangelical Baptist upbringing Like my grandmother was Southern Baptist, so it was always these abstinence programs that I experienced, where they take a piece of tape and they stick it on something, and the more you stick it on something the less sticky it is, so it's not useful anymore, as if you know, a penis goes in your vagina and you're less of a person for that. I'm like. It's an experience Just like eating ravioli or riding a roller coaster. It gives you information so you can decide what you want to do next time, but it definitely doesn't degrade you, change you as a person.

Speaker 2: 23:15

I have no idea where this comes from. I mean, I've got some ideas. It comes from a place of insecurity, especially when it comes to the gold star stuff. Like you need a fucking um. Like you need a award because you knew you were a lesbian from the beginning and you never had sex with with anyone of any other gender the whole time. Like okay, and it's just bizarre to me, and then they'll look at other lesbians as less queer if they've had sex with anyone other than cis women and really what it comes down to is you're a fucking TERF.

Speaker 1: 23:51

Thank you. You're a fucking TERF. It is so trans-fucking-phobic You're getting obsessed about genitals.

Speaker 2: 23:55

It's transphobic as fuck. It makes so trans-fucking-phobic. You're getting obsessed about genitals. It's transphobic as fuck. It makes you anti-queer. What the fuck is wrong with you.

Speaker 1: 24:00

Thank you, I agree with you. I was actually last year sort of involved in this poly-queer community and I witnessed an interesting conversation and it was femme most all cis women, and it was femme most all cis women and so and they were very much into like who's making out with the most women, who's fucking the most women, and that would make you like the better, whatever, the more, whatever one. But they were talking about dating bi women and one of them said well, I'd be OK if I was dating a bi woman who was with a couple of other women, but if she was with a couple of other men, I wouldn't be into her. If she's dating a couple of men, fucking couple of men, I'm not into it. And I was like that's so well. A transphobic came to mind.

Speaker 1: 24:57

But also, that's a body count, that's a misogynistic you've devalued patriarchy that's the fucking patriarchy, and and it was like a very prevalent thing um and like.

Speaker 1: 25:10

So basically, the more men. In my case, if we all went out, uh, if I wanted to make out with a bunch of people in the room, I could pull men left and right. I'm obviously a femme presenting woman, um, and I struggle far more to connect with queer women. It's just harder dating women we'll get to that, um, for later in life, women who start to try and integrate into the queer community. But but it was interesting because so the more women that women in the group would be with, it was like they were like oh wow, look at her making out with so many women.

Speaker 1: 25:47

But if I were to be like making out with lots of men, it would be my worth would suddenly start to denigrate Right, and, and I, it's the patriarchy. To denigrate right, it's patriarchy, it's the patriarchy, thank you. Having a lesbian say that right now, it's priceless for me, because that's what I'm like. You know my queer mind, because I'm not a lesbian, I'm a queer femme and I'm attracted to all the genders. Sometimes I'm like am I missing something? Am I missing something here?

Speaker 2: 26:19

I hate it. I call it out every time I see it. I'm like, how can you, as a community of traumatized people, feel like you just need to pass your hurt along? Because to me, it just reflects that you have no self-awareness, you're not being aware of yourself, you don't own yourself, you don't know yourself. You're trying to validate yourself through making out with a bunch of women. You sound like a dude. You sound like a regular ass, like not self-aware cis dude just walking around with patriarchal standards and it's, it's, it's gross, what the fuck? Grow the hell up. I give people like that room to grow.

Speaker 2: 26:54

That's what I always tell my coaching clients, because they'll come to me, they'll say this, they'll be like you know, I'm late in life. I'm trying to get out there, I'm trying to date. You know when is the time period that I need to tell the woman I'm dating that I've never slept with women before? Or you know, this is me and I'm dating women for the first time and I'm like, honestly, you don't ever have to say anything Like you don't owe someone your history other than your STI status. Like the fuck, here's my STI status. Don't be doing this Because, like, they'll be like well, I don't know what I'm doing.

Speaker 2: 27:27

I'm going to have to ask questions. It's like, well, it doesn't matter how many women you've slept with. Like everybody likes something different. I'm a sex educator and a pleasure coach. If I have sex with different women, I talk to all of them like it's my first time. Like, do you like direct, do you like indirect? You know I'm nervous, so I might shake a little bit. Then we might go slow, I might mess. It's just being a human.

Speaker 1: 27:49

Right, that's such a good an answer to such a big question that I think a lot of late in life lesbians and queer women have is what? When should I tell someone I haven't been with a woman? Do I need to tell them? What will they think and what will that? So you have your answer now, ladies. You don't have to tell anyone anything about your.

Speaker 2: 28:15

You know who and how you sleep with men, like do you tell them how many men you slept with? You're like oh, just so, you know, I've. I've been around five dicks so and I'm on my way around this ball sack like just listen maybe I'll do that thing next time.

Speaker 2: 28:29

Well, let me know my resume so it's like it's no different. I mean, I get it like you're scared, you don't know what you're doing, but you don't have to like display that like you've never had sex with a woman before, unless you feel like that needs to be spoken and to make you feel you know more comfortable, it'll make you feel more at ease. But like if you feel like you owe somebody like a whole, like backlog geez, Like what are we doing?

Speaker 1: 29:41

So at what point would a late in life lesbian want to like announce hey, I am now a lesbian?

Speaker 2: 29:51

That's hard because, like the thing with late in life lesbians is, most of them are married and have children and they're in a binding contract with a cis man and they have a mortgage, they have cars and for a lot of women, they are the stay at home parent, because that's the sociocultural norm that we're in is like that's the stay at home parent, and we feminize poverty. So women who do that they advance the man's career by being in the home and doing the domestics, take care of the children so that he can further his resume. So he's got this nice big, long resume because of her and she has no work history and sometimes no work experience or things like that. So it's depending on like those conditions.

Speaker 2: 30:34

I know that, like when I left my son's father, I had like $1,800 to my name and I had to flop on my parents' couch and be like okay, I gotta figure it out, because I'm not bi, I'm gay, I can't do this shit with him anymore, and that sucked. I had to blow my life up. That's what late blooming lesbians say a lot. They're like is it worth it when you blow up your life? Because this feels scary right now. So that's when the fear of staying in that closet overrides the fear of coming out. That's when you do it.

Speaker 2: 31:04

When you're just busting because if you do it too soon you'll run back, because that familiar zone is your comfort zone. It's not comfortable. It's just stress that you know, and the unknown is so much more scary.

Speaker 1: 31:17

So that's obviously a strategic thing for women who are in those binding situations Like you have to figure out when to leave how to leave, how to support yourself and your children, and I can imagine that's incredible.

Speaker 1: 31:30

Probably the scariest part Although I would argue a lot of late in life lesbians would say one of the scariest things is going down for the first time on another woman. So I mean, I've heard that as well and just from I actually run a group of four bisexual women, bi-oriented and pan-oriented women, in Portland. We've got about 900,000 women in it and some who haven't ever been with a woman and many, many who are late in life to come to this conclusion. And one of their biggest fears is like, if they haven't already had sex with a woman, they're like I, I feel like I'm into women, but I haven't had sex with women. Um, and there's this idea that until you consummate the situation and you've had sex with a woman, then how do you know?

Speaker 1: 32:27

you're like you're not really queer until you've actually gone down on a woman, and then there's a lot of fear about what if. I don't like it. What it cause, you know. So what? What advice do you give to women who are afraid, afraid of like going down on on their first pussy?

Speaker 2: 32:45

Yeah, yeah. So my first advice would be like educate yourself. I run a Patreon where I do demos. I also run a late blooming lesbian workshop, so I mean you can come to that. That's two and a half hours, we'll dive deep, but with going down for the first time, you know, do it slowly.

Speaker 2: 33:02

And then, before you even get to having another partner, you really need to destigmatize your own damn vulva, because there's so much shame put on that fucking body part that you're probably riding with a lot of sociocultural bullshit in your head. That's got you stigmatizing a body part, because from the time that you're a little baby you're taught that that's not yours, it's gross, don't touch that, you know. You change a little boy's diaper or like a baby's born with a penis, you know. And they reach down and grab it and everybody's like oh, you found your thing. Oh, you've been the rest of your life doing that. You know I got some cute little joke. So there's like this warm energy around that it's fine. But babies with vulvas, they do that and they go don't touch that, you know. So you get this notion that that's shameful, that's dirty. So I would be willing to bet that a large percentage of women who are hung up in their head about, like, going down. They're like they're worried about how it's going to smell, they're worried about how it's going to taste, they're worried about how it's going to look. And all of those sociocultural factors are in your head and got you judging a body part as if it's something to be shameful or that it's dirty because it's moist, it's wet and this is not me talking down to people who have legitimate sensory processing issues. Like I understand you don't want something wet on your face.

Speaker 2: 34:18

Talked a lot to clients who keep like a towel close by and they just kind of dab their face. They talk to their partner about that. What's going on? Everything's cool. It's cool. But if that's not it, you need to jump on the vulvagva gallerycom and look at the array of vulvas. Look how beautiful they are. They're like snowflakes. They're all unique. Most of us have longer labia than the others. You know, if you have short labia, you're still normal. It's great. It's just they're like fingerprints, each one's unique. But like start seeing that this culture has made you feel shame about that body part, because I just don't hear that many women getting hung up about giving blowjobs. They just like struggle through that, I feel like it's so much easier to eat pussy. I'm sorry.

Speaker 1: 35:04

Yeah, a lot less jaw pain, that's for sure.

Speaker 2: 35:09

Holy crap, when they grab your head and do that thing where they want to hear you make the gawk, gawk noise and all that, it's just like it's just.

Speaker 1: 35:17

I don't do that. That is not no, that's a hard no for me, no gawk, gawk for you. Hard no, I will. I'll punch your balls, shove my head down. You're going to get a fist in your in your dick, um I. I think you're right, starting with like getting to know your own pussy and like loving it. So, and I am shocked at how many women don't have a relationship with their own pussy like I'm talking, talk, attaching, smelling like.

Speaker 1: 35:49

I know my pussy by scent. I know everything, everything that is going on. I know every scent it puts out and what it means, which is so important. It's so important which also helps me with a partner. When I'm with a woman or a person with a vulva, like I also know what's going on with them and how to navigate that politely if I need to or like whatever, and then I don't know.

Speaker 1: 36:45

I have taken lots of pictures and video of my pussy and I just have to say she's beautiful Like I have, if my pussy, if there were models, if pussies were models, mine definitely would qualify, just saying, but I feel I've heard when women talk about their own pussy. I've heard them say awful things about it.

Speaker 2: 37:10

Awful things.

Speaker 2: 37:12

Awful things they kind of hurry up and beat you to saying something. They're like let me put myself down first. That's a very like women and femmes move. It's just gosh. We're so heartbreaking conditioned to just like put ourselves down and to make ourselves small and to not take up our space. So heaven forbid you say that like I taste mine. It's like women always work. I'm worried about how I'm gonna taste. I'm like taste it. They're like what I'm like taste it. Like every good chef would never serve anything that they didn't taste.

Speaker 1: 37:43

And if you've been with a guy long enough, if you've been married to a man, you know, he's put his dick in your pussy and then had you suck on it. You've already had your pussy in your mouth.

Speaker 1: 37:52

So now enjoy the process without the dick involved. Don't need it. It's all sex, you know. But yeah, I think it gets blown out of proportion. Plus, I would also say when it comes to having sex with another woman, the pussy is only like part of it. That there's so much more to sex and intimacy like going down isn't, isn't the, it's sort of we make going down on another woman sort of like the P&V version of heterosexual sex.

Speaker 2: 38:25

It's not sex until you go down and eat her out.

Speaker 1: 38:27

And that's bullshit.

Speaker 2: 38:29

That's like virginity social construct. I'm not queer because I haven't had sex with a woman. Queer is an orientation, meaning your sexual attraction, not your experience of sex. If you feel sexual magnetism toward women and you're a woman, ding, ding, okay.

Speaker 1: 38:47

Ding, ding, yeah. So and I always say you know, did you do? Do heterosexual women question their heterosexuality before they've had sex? Are they like? I think I might be heterosexual, but I've not had a dick in me, so I don't know. I don't know.

Speaker 2: 39:06

No, it's sort of so much qualifying for queerness Like holy shit.

Speaker 1: 39:11

What advice would you give for late in life lesbians or queer women? Either or They've decided that they know that they're. This is it. I'm a lesbian, I'm a queer woman, I thought I was heterosexual and now I want to embrace it. What would you tell them to do from there? What are some first steps to adventuring into exploring this part of their life?

Speaker 2: 39:39

Redo your wardrobe, all this shit that you wear, because you think that's the image that you're supposed to put out there. If you genuinely like those clothes, don't change it, but like. If you are like, oh, I want to cut my hair, fucking, cut your hair sis. Like, shave your head. If that is in you and you're like, yeah, I want to do that, pierce the things, get the tattoo, dye your fucking hair pink.

Speaker 2: 40:05

It's called secondary adolescence and there's been research that's come out on this. It's amazing. There's an article you can look it up Secondary adolescence for queers, because we don't go through that. In our adolescence we went that part of your prefrontal cortex was basically stunted and you've been masking this whole time with this piece hidden in you. You didn't like, have the language for it. You're like something's different, not sure what it is. Then you're like 35, 40.

Speaker 2: 40:30

Some of my friends came out in their 60s and they're like, oh, I'm queer, that's it. There it is. And now you stop masking, which has been taking up mental load. It takes a mental load to hide something inside of you which messes with your neuroscience in your brain. So when you let it out, there's these processes that come through. So on some levels. You're still 15, no matter how old you are. Maybe you're 60. But that 15-year-old girl did not get to buy those sneakers, dye her hair, shave her head. She needs to do that. That's important. That's one of the most important parts is like finding what makes you feel comfortable in the shell that you're in and do it.

Speaker 1: 41:12

And in the sexuality you're experiencing. That is not what I expected. That's great advice. Totally didn't expect that great advice, totally didn't expect that. But I think that when you embrace who you really are, then you suddenly realize why certain outfits never felt quite right, or why the hair didn't feel, or the way you were trying to present yourself never seemed to fit like the costume that fit everybody else in the room right. So, figuring out what your costume is, and then from there you've done the thing you've kind of found, like something that makes you feel good.

Speaker 1: 41:50

How do you find your community?

Speaker 2: 41:52

Yeah, so usually it's going to be online. Facebook has a ton of late in life lesbian groups. One of them is called Club Lilies, that's Jamie's group. And then there's Late Blooming Lesbian group or LBL, and you just type this in on Facebook, it'll come right up. Both of these groups have like 8,000 or more members. So immediately as you go in, you're going to be in a community full of women and femmes and non-binary folks who are going through the same thing. As you go in, you're going to be in a community full of women and femmes and non-binary folks who are going through the same thing as you. And I think that community is more important than a romantic relationship. I think people put hierarchy on getting a partner like that's a ledger of success. Your success is dependent upon your community way more than your romantic partner, and you're going to get you're going to be more susceptible to getting into toxic or malicious situations if you don't have a community to bounce things off of. So develop the community first and then date would be my number one advice.

Speaker 1: 42:54

That's fantastic advice. So you start with exploring yourself, self-expression now as a queer person, then building your community and then, once your community is built, then embarking on dating is going to be easier because you've already got a community. So either you'll be meeting people that way, or they'll be able to say, hey, this app or this event, let's go do this, and you can do it with friends.

Speaker 2: 43:20

Yes, it'll keep you safe, because when somebody tries to like breadcrumb, you like, give you just enough attention to keep your attention, but not enough to satisfy you. You need somewhere to go riff on that. Hey, this is happening. Or can you look at these text messages with me, cause I'm just feeling confused, cause it's like it's your first time getting out there and dating, and maybe like 20 years or so or more, so you're trying to find your way. It's much easier if people hold up mirrors for you so you can see if you got lipstick on your teeth. You know Right.

Speaker 1: 43:51

There's a starter pack right there for women who are currently thinking I'm queer, what now? Well, you've got your starter pack, but we're going to back up a little and give people what we said we would at the beginning, which is, let's say, there are well, we know there are tons of women out there that are starting to question. They're just like something is going on and I'm having interests that I never expected. What do they do with that and how do they? When is it that they can go that?

Speaker 2: 44:24

like I said in the beginning, the difference between admiring someone and being sexually attracted to them, because you're like, oh, I thought I wanted to be her friend but actually I wanted to be under her, and sometimes it takes a while to hash that out. So, like you know, reading certain types of erotica is like a safe way to explore that, and I know that there's there's a thin edge there, because there's a difference between, like, fantasies that live in your head and fantasies that you want to bring out into the real world. But if every single time you're watching porn or reading erotica, you want it to be just women, babe, you know it might be a sign.

Speaker 2: 45:17

Or when you're having sex.

Speaker 1: 45:19

You're thinking about women.

Speaker 2: 45:20

You think about women to like stay in it, because women will be like oh, I've had sex with men and I had an orgasm. So that means I liked it Right. And I'm like, I have orgasms with my vibrator but I'm not attracted to it. So, like, good, physical stimulation will get you there. But did you want to open your eyes and look at him? And they're like no, they're like no.

Speaker 2: 45:44

When I'm with my wife, I can't stop looking at everything that's going on. Not one part do I want to close my eyes, but at some points my eyes roll back in my head and I can't help it. But visually I'm all the way there and I'm not wanting to be anywhere else to be anywhere else. Or you know, like I think about the times that I was with my son's father and I would always be so jealous of him when we were having sex.

Speaker 2: 46:08

That one really stuck out to me because I was trying to explain to him. I was like, look, I'm not bi, I'm telling you, because we met when I was really young and I thought I could be bi. I was like I could be. He's a nice guy. He fucked like a lesbian but like I noticed that I didn't really want to look at him, darren, and I would go inside my head a lot and I would find myself getting very jealous of him, like I'd be jealous of what he was getting to touch and what he was getting to do and I would want to be him, I would want to be doing what he was doing and I tried to explain that to him. I was like I don't think this is what, you know, women who are attracted to men do is get really jealous of you.

Speaker 1: 46:45

Yeah, that's interesting. I, my ex, my ex-husband, said to me one day he was watching me. I would. I'm, I really like superhero movies, like the Marvel movies, and I was watching the Marvel movies with all the beautiful male superheroes.

Speaker 2: 47:04

And I don't know what I was saying, or doing at the moment.

Speaker 1: 47:06

But he just was looking at me strangely and he said I just realized something, annette, and I'm like what he's like, you don't love these movies because you want those men. He said, you want to be them. And I was like, yeah, same, I was obsessed with Wolverine. Yeah, it's funny. It's so funny that you say that you felt jealous, because I think I also often experienced that jealousy. I think some another way I kind of knew solidified that I was queer is I would be jealous of other queer femme couples and lesbian couples seeing them, or if I had a friend who had been with a guy and ended up with a woman like I was like, oh, I want to know what that's like.

Speaker 1: 48:06

That was kind of earlier on in my my journey before I realized. I'm pan and then I'm like I like it all for me, it's just finding right the right match.

Speaker 2: 48:16

I love that because, like I wanted, I was jealous of the way hugh jackman was attracting these women like I wanted to be him because of the way he was attracting women. Like jason momoa, I was never attracted him but I was like, oh, I bet it's great to be him though like he gets, he tries a lot of women yeah, it's.

Speaker 1: 48:36

It's an interesting experience. I mean, for me it's interesting because, like I shift into back and forth between wanting to be a thing and wanting a thing, and that's how I knew like I was.

Speaker 1: 48:47

I'm like, I'm all sorts of something. It's confusing at times, actually, but so those are just some relatable things if you are listening to this and you're trying to figure it out. First of all, having sex with another woman isn't what makes you a lesbian or a queer femme. It's the attraction, it's the interest, it's you know, you find yourself looking at women and desiring them and being curious about what it would feel like to be with them, Then you're probably queer to some extent, at least you know, and that's a starting spot.

Speaker 1: 49:31

So one last question before we go Do you find in your experience with late in life lesbians that they do, they start out thinking they're bi or pan and then moving into thinking they're a lesbian, or do you find most often it's just they're like nope, I'm not into men. Is there a path?

Speaker 2: 49:55

Right. I find a lot of them are scared to take on any labels because they feel like they're not welcome. So that's the thing that I see. A lot is they're like I don't know, because I just don't feel welcome in the community. So they feel like they have to earn their right to take up space underneath the rainbow and that hurts my heart. I really hate that because I'll ask them. You know how does queer feel for you? Because that's the label that I take on, because it just leaves a lot of room for the energy to flow.

Speaker 2: 50:22

I could tell you what I'm going to be doing when I'm 50. I don't know, I have no idea, but you know some of them they like lesbian, they feel very strong in it. A lot of them will try bi on and then they'll be like I'm bi, but the only guy that I want to be with is this guy and if I'm not with this guy, I never want to be with a guy again. I hear that one like all the time They'll be like has some gamer boyfriend, or like this really good, cool dude, or you know, like a feminine man or something, and they'll be with him and they'll be like you know, if we don't work out, then I'm never going to be with a man again. I don't know Like there's a spectrum of it, for sure I can't say that there's like one more than the other but the main thing that I see is that they're afraid to take on any label that like puts them in a place because they feel like they're not welcome in the community.

Speaker 1: 51:15

It's so interesting. I feel like we're taught like the community of late in life lesbians, late in life queer women is a huge crossover to my experience with bi women. Most of them are all really coming into their bisexuality later in life, because these are all the things I hear all of the time as well. So, and it is a scary place and I know myself. I don't.

Speaker 1: 51:45

I still, and I I've been involved in the queer community a lot, but I still don't feel at home in specifically well, definitely lesbian spaces, uh, but even just in the queer community spaces, there is like something that, just you know, it doesn't feel like a perfect fit for me, and I do think that has a lot to do with, unfortunately, my generation of lesbians and older, I think, though Gen Z the younger queer folk it's a whole new ballgame. Queer folk it's a whole new ballgame. They are so inclusive and accepting and not tolerant of this sort of outdated bullshit, so hopefully that shift will happen yeah.

Speaker 2: 52:34

I think it's just, you know, like traumatized people looking at the environment they're in and they've just taken this patriarchy and purity culture and wrapped a rainbow flag around it. Well, like this is how I was treated, so I'm going to treat you. You know the old adage like hurt people hurt people. So we're going to see that in the community and that's what I try to tell. Like the late blooming lesbians I talked to, I'm like being queer is not an escape from being an asshole. So you're going to run into them and you just give them room to grow. They're letting you know that they're not your people, but don't let that make you think that you don't belong here.

Speaker 1: 53:03

Right, I love that. Any last thoughts you want to leave listeners with?

Speaker 2: 53:10

Just like, I guess, to repeat again from the beginning like you're not late, you're right on time. If you would have done this sooner, your nervous system might have just collapsed under it. Like you just weren't ready and it doesn't matter when you come out, like the time to be yourself is when you're ready to be your full self and authenticity. That's what our life is really about is like getting to fulfill your pursuit of happiness your way, finding your pleasure, whatever that means to you.

Speaker 1: 53:40

I love that, thank you. I love that, thank you. That's beautiful. I also do want you to talk to my listeners about your workshop. It's, I think, a workshop or a retreat you're doing for late in life lesbians and then tell everybody where they can find you, follow you and work with you, especially if they're in this vulnerable place.

Speaker 2: 54:05

Yeah, so I run a late-blooming lesbian sex ed workshop. It's two and a half hours, it's on Zoom and we always record it. So if you purchase a spot we'll send you the recording next day. If you can't come to the live, and you'll get a survey the day before so you can submit your questions and I'll answer them there. And you'll get a survey the day before so you can submit your questions and I'll answer them there.

Speaker 2: 54:26

But we talk about compulsory heterosexuality and the effects that it has. So I can help you start to deprogram the shame that you're carrying thinking that you should have known this sooner. You're a victim of the program, like, don't shame yourself about what you didn't know, and we can dive deep on that. From there I go into how to talk to someone about STI results. You know, because people will think because we both have vulvas, that we can't pass something to each other. But the viral STIs do pass through rubbing. You know vaginal fluids getting on each other. It's still a risk. So I talked to you about how to do that.

Speaker 2: 54:57

So, safety, communication, common queer terms that you may not understand what they mean. I can tell you about all that, demystifying the queer terms so you know what the lingo is and how that communicates boundaries for some people, like when someone says they're a stone top or they're a stone butch and what that means. And then we ended all like coming around to aftercare and having that conversation so you don't get in situations where the aftercare is not complimentary, because your closure is really important. So it's a lot deeper than just like how to do oral sex, but it's about how to own pleasure your way so that you have satisfying interactions moving forward, because you know, you've been living life for other people long enough.

Speaker 2: 55:36

It's time for you to do you your way.

Speaker 1: 55:38

Wonderful, yeah, you can find all that stuff on my website for you to do you your way.

Speaker 2: 55:42

You can. Yeah, you can find all that stuff on my website. It's wwwbde-movescom and you can find out. My free consultations are on there for my 10 week program. I work with both individuals and couples. I'm very passionate about working with couples, though that's my favorite is that I love helping them carry through the steps to have a really strong connection, and that's just like the best environment to have the most mind blowing sex you're ever going to have is when you completely trust each other.

Speaker 1: 56:14

Thank you for coming on. I've had you on a couple of times and I feel like your knowledge and expertise is so valuable, and so I appreciate you taking the time to have this conversation with me. I feel like your knowledge and expertise is so valuable, and so I appreciate you taking the time to have this conversation with me. Listeners, thank you for being here, and until next time I'll see you in the locker room.

Speaker 2: 56:39

Cheers Ring loop.