9 Relationship Red Flags You Should NOT Ignore

I talk to Sex & Relationship Therapist & Expert Deb Laino about some of the biggest red flags people run into when dating. These 9+ red flags should not be ignored! Find out why.

In this episode you will learn about:

Bread Crumbing
 Love Bombing
 Orbiting
 Gaslighting
 Hoovering
 Icing
 Cuffing
 Ghosting

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 1:24

Do the sex Think fun, honest and feminist as fuck, and always with the goal of fighting the patriarchy. One female orgasm at a time. Welcome to the locker room. Today's lockerin' Shots topic is from gaslighting to love, bombing, dating red flags that should send you running. And I'm excited about this topic because well, not only because it's going to help y'all in your dating and sex life, but also a lot of the things we're going to talk about today. We all need to stop and take a look at ourselves, because a lot of them, while we like to post about the awful person who's done these things to us, if we're really honest with ourselves, we've also done them to other people, and so this is an opportunity to improve your dating life, but also improve yourself, and I'm extra excited because we have a professional here to help us really understand what they are.

Speaker 1: 2:33

My guest is a returning guest from one of my favorite episodes on why people cheat. If you haven't listened to it, you're going to want to. I learned a lot. And my guest is Dr Deb Lano, sex and relationship expert. She is an author, a professor and a major media contributor, and she is going to talk us through some of these terms. But, deb, can you reintroduce yourself for the listeners who may not have listened to the last podcast you were on?

Speaker 2: 3:05

Yes, and thank you for having me back on. It's always a pleasure. So, dr Deb Lano, I'm a sex and relationship therapist and you pretty much honed in on all the big stuff there. Professor, private practice sex and relationship therapist and I do some media work and you know I'm just kind of all over the place.

Speaker 1: 3:28

Yeah, and definitely an expert on what we're going to talk about Cheers. Let's talk about sex and relationships and dating.

Speaker 2: 3:38

All right and all those, all those weird behaviors and that have probably been going on for many, many, many, many years, but now we have names to it and now, because of like dating sites and all of that, they've just come up and they're, you know, just all over the place.

Speaker 1: 3:55

Yeah, so a lot of these terms are really new, like I want to say, within the last five years. And I think you're right that the dating because of the dating sites. But I love that we've started to put names to behaviors when I knew they were happening to me. It's like I can never call them out, and now there's a name for it. But I also think we abuse the terms a little bit. So I mean, let's just dive in. I've got a list and I think we're just going to kind of go through them. I wanted to start with bread crumbing.

Speaker 2: 4:24

A lot of these are actually very similar too. Okay, so like bread crumbing and like icing or simmering, like they're all kind of similar. So you know, bread crumbing is you show an interest in somebody, right, and then, but you don't, you're not committing to anything and you're not really going out on dates, but you're giving them, like just enough to keep them somewhat interested. Okay, like you're giving them breadcrumbs. Okay, so you know, and this, I think, is a big one with online dating, because it's like okay, I like this person, but then we've got this paradox of choice that happens right when there's so many people to choose from, most people don't end up choosing anybody. Okay, that's why it's a paradox. So I like this person, but is there other people out there that I might like better? Okay, like, maybe you know, so I'm going to keep this person around. Okay, I am interested, I'm going to give them a little bit, okay, but I'm never really going to follow through.

Speaker 1: 5:36

Yeah, yeah, I've definitely had that done and I've definitely done that Both of them.

Speaker 2: 5:41

Yeah, but I mean, think about it. Never before in history have you been able to have access to all of the opportunities that we have now in the dating world. Ok, like before, you would go to, you know, the local few bars around your closest area and sometimes you would step out. But you know, for convenience sake, right, and you probably run into the similar people. Okay, now you know there's thousands and thousands of people at your fingertips.

Speaker 1: 6:18

So what about? What is you threw out? Simmering and icing? What are those?

Speaker 2: 6:25

They're actually pretty similar, so simmering. Well, let's start with icing. Okay, like you convey interest in someone, okay, but you also let them know that right now you can't be with them. Okay, like you got other stuff going on, all right, so I'm going to put you on ice for now. Now, what the other person has going on could be legitimate. It could be work stuff, or it could be other dating opportunities.

Speaker 1: 6:56

Right.

Speaker 2: 6:57

And then simmering is expressing an interest. But you know, you you're kind of stringing them along for a long while, okay, um, and it may or may not end up in in something Okay, so they're, they're all kind of similar, okay, like icing, simmering, bread, crumbing, um, you know, but you keep with with, uh, simmering you, you keep with simmering. You keep them at more of a comfortable distance, okay, like you don't want them all up in your business, okay, but you are talking to them, you know, occasionally you let them know that you have an interest, but I'm doing other stuff too.

Speaker 1: 7:41

Yeah, and you know it is funny. I think everybody does these to some extent at some point of time in their dating life and and I think you're right that the, the access to so many people, has changed things also. Yeah, I think reason when I'm cause, as we're talking, I'm trying to think of when I've done this, why I think I've done these things without bad intention. I think I've done these things just because I'm like, oh, I'm just trying to figure out what you're about. I also have this person who's also interesting to me, but I do think people also do it where it's harmful and where I think I've had it done to me is like when someone is making me feel like they're really into me, but they just need time and and but they have no intention of ever following through. They're just kind of playing me out or trying to get me in bed or having sex with me and with the promise Now this doesn't happen to me anymore.

Speaker 1: 8:44

You know, at this point in my life but I can call these things out and, um, you know, whatever I I just have a different take on dating and stuff like that at this point. But you know, when I was monogamous and when I was young and when I was looking for the one and I know there are plenty of women my age who are still doing that um, this was something that would happen to me, and but a guy would be using me for sex with no intention of being the one down the road and I was like, but maybe he will, but he will not ever. Yeah, that will never turn. Never turn into anything.

Speaker 2: 9:20

Yeah. So intention, right, is a big thing. I mean, there's, there's definitely manipulative people out there that will do all of these behaviors with an intention of getting what they want, whatever that is could be sex, could be money, could be, who knows? Um, and then you know, just kind of not really having any thought of you in the future, okay so.

Speaker 2: 9:47

And then there's the people again that you know they don't want to hurt somebody's feelings. You know they do, they really like the person, you know, but they're also, you know, maybe they don't know how to tell the person, maybe they're conflict avoidant and if they say, look, I really like you, but I don't want to get into something serious right now, I do want to date. I hope that we can still date too, so that you know everything's kind of open and clear and you know there's no weirdness or anything like that. Like some people feel like that's conflict, you know, and so they don't approach it and you know they end up doing some of these behaviors. So intention and you know this as well as I know this but the intention behind the behavior is obviously the thing to look at.

Speaker 1: 10:35

Right, right. So let's move on to love bombing.

Speaker 2: 10:40

So this one is something to really look out for, okay, something to really look out for, okay, just because it tends to be a beginning sign of getting into a relationship with someone who, at minimum, has narcissistic tendencies. Okay. So, and while all of these again can be abusive, you know, again, like we talked about, it depends on the intention. But love bombing is in the very beginning of a relationship and it can last, you know, usually, you know, can last up to six months, until you start to get to know the person and then the love bombing goes away and the true person comes out. But the person gets to know you, gets to know what you like, what your weaknesses are, and this is where we get. We can get into narcissistic tendencies, right when you become the prey.

Speaker 2: 11:34

I become very aware of what it is that you want, you like, and I'm going to play on that, okay. So in the first you know date, I can tell if you're a romantic or not. If I can tell that you're a romantic, I know exactly what to do to get you hooked on me. Okay, I'm going to buy you some gifts. I'm going to take you to romantic restaurants, I'm going to eye gaze, I'm going to start to, you know, really compliment you right and do all of these wonderful things, okay. So, and it's going to feel really intense and for somebody that is, uh, not aware of that, or has some trauma, or wants to be loved, or is empathic, um, it's going to feel really really good to them, Okay. Like it's going to be like to feel really really good to them, okay. Like it's going to be like oh, my God, I found my soulmate, I found my one Right and, uh, you know, six months later, it turns into, you know, a reversal, you know, of uh behavior patterns and I say this loosely because I do believe in, like the love of first sight type things, okay, but I do believe that you should, this day and age, you should be cautious, okay, and I would see that as a yellow flag, not necessarily a red flag, but if things are really really intense in the beginning, I would, I would throw some caution up there.

Speaker 2: 13:16

That's a yellow flag. Okay, take a step back, look at it. Okay, get some grounding and you can proceed, but you need to proceed with caution.

Speaker 1: 13:27

Right. So in love bombing, what happened when it is a person with bad intent? What happens after they love bomb? What is the behavior that follows that?

Speaker 2: 13:41

The emotional abuse.

Speaker 1: 13:43

So then they start emotionally abusing you and then using all of the romantic things they've done as like some sort of defense or justification.

Speaker 2: 13:51

Yeah, and weapon you know weaponry because you know it's not very difficult for somebody to get to know somebody else's weak spots.

Speaker 1: 14:01

Okay.

Speaker 2: 14:02

So, for example, during love bombing and during that intense phase, right, there's going to be a lot of conversation, right, because the vulnerabilities there and you trust the person, because they're doing all this like stuff for you and saying all the right things, right, so all of that information you know gets used against you as a weapon later on down the line, right, that's the abuse of love bombing.

Speaker 1: 14:28

So that's love bombing. Now the next one is a word, and I know that this one is kind of close to the other ones, but it's used oftentimes Gaslighting. Can we talk about gaslighting? And let's be really clear about it, because I think it's used incorrectly often One of those buzzwords right, like everything everybody does now is gaslighting.

Speaker 2: 14:55

Okay, and it's not necessarily true at all. Gaslighting is when somebody turns the situation around on you, okay, and there's different layers and levels of it and different ways to look at it. Okay, so we'll look at at those. But you know, if I'm having a conversation about, um, something that you did, okay, hey, annette, this this really hurt me and, um, you know, if it continues, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. And instead of you saying you know what, deb, you're right, um, I shouldn't have done that, that was wrong, I'm so sorry, can you forgive me? Like, how do we move past this? Right, instead say so, wait a second, it's okay for you to do this, but if I do this, I'm wrong, right, well, what about the time when you did all of this?

Speaker 2: 15:56

Okay, or it could show up like I'm looking, uh, I don't trust you, for whatever reason. I'm, look, you're my partner. I look through your cell phone, right, and I found some interaction between you and you know this other other female, and I call you out on it. And now, instead of you saying oh, my God, yeah, I cheated, I'm so sorry, you know, blah, blah, blah, you turn it around on me and I'm the bad guy because I'm through your phone and I'm the bad guy because I'm going through your phone, because I'm like so, so everything gets off the other person and onto the other person.

Speaker 2: 16:34

Okay, that's gas. That's what confuses people. It's like well, wait a second. Okay, shit Like, uh, you're right, that was wrong, I should. And before you know it, you're you're thinking your own self is wrong. Okay, the other gaslighting move that's interesting is what I call circle talking. Okay, and that is, you're in this conversation with somebody and you're trying to get to a resolution, okay, but an hour later it feels like you're dancing, like nothing's happening. Things are going around in circles. We've said this already. Why aren't we getting to another level? Okay, and that's a manipulative conversation. Somebody's manipulating in that conversation and that's a form of flighting as well.

Speaker 1: 17:23

Oh God See, I also don't get into that anymore Because I don't know it must be age. I just get exhausted really quick when I'm talking to someone and it's getting nowhere Like I get exhausted. And I remember when I was younger and you know dating, and I would get into these all night week long circular conversations. I just man, I just don't have the energy anymore.

Speaker 2: 17:45

Yeah, it takes a lot of energy. A lot of energy, you know, and relationships will often not survive. I mean, you know with those, and if they somehow do, it's usually a very disconnected relationship.

Speaker 1: 17:59

Guys that should have cleared up gaslighting. Just it's okay to use it. Just make sure you're using it in the right context. You can't just throw around your gaslighting at people. I see it online all the time. People are like they were gaslighting me and then they talk about the situation. I'm like wait a second, maybe they were just telling you you're fucked up.

Speaker 2: 18:18

I don't know, or, for that matter, maybe they're poor communicators, right? I mean, I look at that in my office, right? Because I'll hear people say, oh my God, they're so narcissistic. You know, they gaslight me, and a lot of times what I'll find out is that it's not necessarily gaslighting. It's that you guys are seeing things from very different perspectives and nobody's listening to the other person or trying to understand. I will say this with any of these things, when you feel like something is off, learn to listen to your gut, okay, and bring up the conversation with someone, and in a healthy environment. The conversation should bring a resolution. In an unhealthy, toxic environment, ok. Or relationship, it's not going to bring a resolution OK. It's going to bring either, you know, circle talking or manipulation or blame or any of those types of things, ok. Don't not listen to your gut, ok. Like people need to learn how to trust their gut. Have the conversation and if it's a toxic result, then that person probably doesn't need to be in your life.

Speaker 1: 19:32

Yeah, and I'll tell you what because I'm in the relationship I am in currently. It's one of the most most growth oriented relationships I've ever been in, and I'll tell you why. It's not because we haven't done some of this stuff to each other. Certainly, old habits have popped into this relationship, but what has made it worth, beyond worthwhile and healthy, is that I can actually say I'm feeling this thing to him and he'll like sit down, self-reflect, and then we talk about it and figure out. Sometimes some of it's my stuff, I have anxiety or you know whatever my anxious attachment style or his avoidance stuff, and then we work through it. But in the past when I've been in these situations, it's gone into the circle talking or the throwing everything back on me. It's because you're this way. So, yeah, that that is great advice. I want to move on to hoovering. This was a term that I hadn't heard about, so this is new to me.

Speaker 2: 20:39

So hoovering is a fairly newer term and basically it's, uh, you know somebody, it it's an abusive behavior too, uh, like all of these, but it's somebody has this deep fear of somebody withdrawing from their partner, withdrawing from the relationship or leaving the relationship, and they Hoover, okay, like they are trying to make it work in different ways. They become, uh, excessively attached to the relationship out of their own fear of losing the relationship. Okay, and they can get manipulative too with something like this Okay. So, uh, you know, if you, you know if, if you don't come over right now, I'm going to hurt myself.

Speaker 1: 21:33

They kind of they kind of suck you back in. I guess that's like the right. They kind of keep sucking you back in when you try to like yeah.

Speaker 2: 21:51

Yeah, so you know, again very manipulative, very sort of personality disorder type behavior. You know you'll see a lot of this with borderline personality disorder. Ok, like very fearful of losing relationships and, you know, leveraging. Ok, if you don't do this, I'm going to do this. Uh, and again, just unresolved trauma, right, cause BP, borderline personality disorder is now, you know, for the most part viewed as like a trauma personality. You know, disorder right, unresolved trauma, right, and it gets, you know, kind of put on the relationship.

Speaker 1: 22:27

That's an instant red flag.

Speaker 2: 22:30

For sure that is a red flag Because, again, it's leverage, it's manipulation and it's usually with something so big that it would cause a tremendous amount of guilt. Okay, like, and that's the goal, right, if you don't do this, I could make you feel a really bad way and then that kind of brings the person back and if those patterns you know kind of are common in the relationship, that relationship could go on for years like that, okay, and cause there's plenty of people in abusive relationships and they have no idea they're in an abusive relationship. They know something's not right but because they're not getting like physically hit, they don't believe that it's abusive right, or they're so used to the emotional abuse that they don't even really recognize that it's emotional abuse.

Speaker 1: 23:24

Let me give you an example of how bad this behavior is. The first time I experienced it was my senior year of high school. I was in a relationship with someone who I didn't realize at that time I was so young and naive was a recovered alcoholic. And when I finally left him and he kept me away from all of my friends, like he really isolated me. When I finally left him and he kept me away from all of my friends, like he really isolated me. When I finally left him, he started drinking and making sure I knew and doing drugs and all of this scary, self-destructive stuff and showing up wherever I was to let me, like see what a mess I had made, I had made. He even at one point got so violently ill from drug and alcohol that and in the middle of getting sick he shouted to everyone and me that it was because of me, it was my fault. To this day, this individual will still reach out to me and this is. We are talking almost 30 years later and it still scares me.

Speaker 1: 24:25

That is a behavior. When I see anything like with friends, new people in my life, I'm like I am just no way, because you know, even though I know, and you will know that it's not your fault there is a part of you that's like, oh my god, like if I triggered this, if I you know, and so yeah, that I would say that that is a red flag run for your fucking life. Now, this is a new term that's out that I would love to hear you speak to orbiting. Now, I just found out about it this morning. I stumbled across it, so I'm glad that I did, and I think with a.

Speaker 1: 25:54

You know, in the age of social media, we all have experienced this where you're into someone, you like them, they ghost you or blow you off or you break it off and it seems like they're not really into you, but they still look at your stories on Instagram and check out your social media, and so you know they're still there and you're like do I reach out to them, do I not? You know I have had a lot of that happen. Can you explain what the fuck? What the fuck are they doing, dr Deb? What do they want from us?

Speaker 2: 26:35

what do they want from us? So I mean, this was, I guess the old, you know drive-by right, like if you broke up with somebody pre-social media you did a drive-by, where you know they hang out Like are they there? Are they there? What, what they're doing? Look at their stories, look at all their pictures again, see if they're dating anybody new.

Speaker 1: 27:04

But the question is if they ditched you in the first place, why are they doing that? And so what the person sits there and thinks to themselves is oh, they must actually still be interested. Oh, they must actually. You know, I read it wrong, you know, and so you just keep, but it, you know. Is that the case? Are they still interested? They never reach out again. Do they want you to talk to them? Do they just want you to stay hung up on them?

Speaker 2: 27:34

I think, like some of the other ones, there's multiple reasons and intentions with this, okay. So, for example, they ditch you because they think they got something going on with this other person. This other person ditches them and now they're looking at you, know what you're doing, because maybe they recognize that they've made a mistake, okay. Maybe they don't know how to reach out, okay. Or maybe they want you to see that they're looking at your stories and then they expect they want you to reach out. Right, it's all this like kind of manipulation type stuff going on. Are they? Could they still be interested in you? Yes, they could still be interested in you. Are they just nosy?

Speaker 2: 28:16

Is this what social media? Is this one of the outcomes of social media? Right, like you know, do we have, do we look on people's pages, that? Because orbiting isn't just with relationships, okay, it's also with friendships that you're not friends with anymore, okay. Like I've orbited, okay, like I've got some people that I know that I care less if I'm friends with them or not anymore, right, but once in a while, you know, I'll check out their page, see what they're doing. I don't know if they see me or not, I don't really care, okay, but I it's almost like a. You know, I'm curious. On one level I hope they're doing well. So on one level I'm bored. I'm bored whatever I'm doing Right. So I just start with social media. I mean that's, look at what social media can do, and anybody that's on social media has likely done something like this. Okay, if it becomes obsessive or, you know, compulsive or whatever, then obviously it's a problem. But you know, I think I think these types of things are the result of, you know, social media and technology.

Speaker 2: 29:23

Yeah, that um you see it on dating sites too. Some of the dating sites you can orbit too, Some of the dating sites you can orbit on. We've got all of this access to people's lives, and I think that it you know it's creates curiosity and interest and maybe a little bit of obsession.

Speaker 1: 29:43

So do you feel that orbiting is an unhealthy behavior? You're right, it used to be. When I was a little girl, people were just gone, like once you cut them off, especially if they were long distance. You didn't have access to anybody, they were just literally gone from your life, unless they decided to write a letter, you know, which I think led to healing faster if that's what you truly wanted. Faster if that's what you truly wanted. And that's why, in relationships or whatever I'm very aware of, when I'm done, I'm done. So do you think it's healthy or unhealthy?

Speaker 2: 30:17

I think it depends. Okay, to your point there. If you know you've been broken up with, you know and the person's orbiting and you see that they're orbiting or you're, you know, you're checking out their stuff um, that's going to be tremendously unhealthy and it's going to prolong healing. I see that actually a lot, um, in my office and I have to tell people like you need to get off of social media, like you need to block this person, or you need to get off of social media until you have the strength not to do that. Or, for that matter, if you see somebody orbiting an ex or a friend or whatever and that's making you uncomfortable because you're getting all these thoughts, well, maybe they're still interested. You know, I don't know what to do. It's causing you stress. Take your butt off social media, okay, cause you're likely going to get involved in some toxic you know communication pattern. You know, with this person, that makes sense.

Speaker 1: 31:11

That makes sense. All right, I've got two terms left. I'm leaving the big one for the end because it is way overused and I'm going to have you clearly define it. But before we get to it, maybe the second biggest one is ghosting. People have so many feelings around ghosting. I am going to tell you up front, dr Deb, I love being ghosted If it's early on.

Speaker 1: 31:31

If back when I was dating like no, my boyfriend right now could not ghost me, I'd punt his ass down. But when I was just in the dating phase and trying to meet people you know and I'd have some people I get kind of excited about, and then they'd ghost me. And I always tell people I was so thankful for it because A I don't want to know why you're not into me, because I don't know you well enough to give a fuck Like, it's not about me, you don't know me well enough to affect my self-esteem. You're just not into me. It's about them, it's their stuff and I don't want an explanation, I don't need to talk about it, you can just fade into nothingness.

Speaker 1: 32:10

And I liked that. I was not one who wanted to give someone a chance to say, who didn't really know me. To say something kind of that would make me feel bad about myself. I just moved on. You know, in a couple weeks I'd forgotten about them. But some people are really man, it really gets to them. I would love to hear, like what, what it is the behavior, what are your thoughts on it?

Speaker 2: 32:35

So your like outlook there is awesome, it's the way it should be, right, I mean, and it's the truth. If it happens in the beginning, okay, cause there's nothing, there's no emotional time made. I uh, I think where, where ghosting becomes a problem is, you know, the third date, and each date was like intense and it felt good and somebody person a really wants a relationship and gets really into person B person, person B being the ghoster three dates in, everything's going great. You know, sometimes people you know they fantasize about what the future is going to look like, right Like, before they ever should. I mean, you know, we've got all these nuances that go along with this, and then the person just completely disappears, disappears off social media, dating sites, right Like, and they're left wondering what happened.

Speaker 2: 33:38

Did I do something, you know? Is, you know, I mean, think about it. By the third date, things can be very intense for some people. We could even throw love bombing into this mix a bit, but it can be hurtful, okay, and I think that that's what happens and it can actually cause all of these behaviors can cause like minor to like moderate PTSD symptoms, okay. So, for example, by the third day and I'm not saying this is healthy either, and I feel connected to you and we're having a great time and I'm telling, starting to tell my friends about you. Like you know, these things are great and I get ghosted. And then I start to question myself. And then I go out on another date when I sort of heal from this, say a month later, and the same thing happens, right, like that becomes who do I trust? You know, like, how do I start going on dates and how do I actually trust people when I feel these feelings? And then this is what happens, right. So therein lies the toxicity of it when, ultimately, you know, if we lived in a world that I don't know knew how to communicate, it would be more like and some people do know how to do this, but a lot of people don't, and it's. It would sound more like hey look, I think you're great. I don't really feel an intimate spark between us. I'd love to hang out, but I just want to let you know that you know we could be great friends, but you know, this is where I'm drawing the line Right, because it's almost like they. They think they're going to hurt the person's feelings. Well, if you ghost them, you're going to hurt them even more, right, you know. So it's like, yeah, but again, in the beginning, you know you go on a first date, you know it was okay. You give them a second chance, it was okay, and then they disappear.

Speaker 2: 35:40

Your perspective, there is the perfect thing to take, you know platform to take. You know, thank you, because you know, I know this is about you and it's not about me. Okay, and I'm not going to. You know, take that personally. Okay, but there's got to be some. I think, when you're doing that and you let me know, uh, or let us know, like there there's, you haven't given yourself like you're not into it a hundred percent Right, given yourself like you're not into it a hundred percent, right, because you know, and that that person that does get into somebody really fast, they may need to check. You know what's going, what's driving that.

Speaker 1: 36:20

I don't. I'm not someone who will look at the future with someone else until I am way down the road. I'm going to be honest with you, even if and I did I did back, and this was back when I was dating quite a bit. I even had times where, after you know, we we had sex and the ghost and it was. It wasn't like when I say I was ghosted, it wasn't like I was reaching out and reaching out, it was like just silence happened and I was like pretty sure and it didn't affect me.

Speaker 1: 36:53

But I go into things knowing it takes a long time to know when a person is the right person for you. It takes and I am talking a long time. There's some on TikTok, some relationship person woman on TikTok right now selling this book to women, and women are eating it up. Three months, no kissing before you kiss a person and then and then you're in the clear and this is how you're going to find the man of your dreams and I'm like this whole three month thing is bullshit, you know. I mean, yeah, it is like it can take six months or a year before we all we really start seeing things that we're going to deal with.

Speaker 1: 37:38

We're all at my age. Once you're in your 30s, 40s, man, we're coming with some baggage and there are things that pop out between me and my partner now we're two and a half years later New behaviors that we're like OK, how are we going to deal with this? This is affecting our relationship and I just, but I for me, I just really not, until I actually sat with a person and we both say, hey, this is something we're doing right, this is you know, and have that conversation. I'm starting to feel something for you. Are we going to keep doing this? Have that conversation before you get invested Right, like I just, but I really first worked on loving myself.

Speaker 2: 38:23

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 38:23

To the point where it was like I'm not going to let some jackass who slides through my life for like whatever, a couple weeks or a month, derail my work.

Speaker 2: 38:31

Fuck that, you know you can't give your, you know, your, your health away that easy. But Annette, on the other side of you know the three month thing, there's this I think she's a comedian rolling around on I don't know Facebook, instagram reels and she actually kind of makes a little sense and she goes the exact opposite and her basic tenet is this I'm going to fuck somebody sooner, right, because I need to know if you can fuck with my body before I allow you inside my head and my heart. It was a really interesting take.

Speaker 1: 39:15

I love that you bring that up because I am literally, literally like. I want to know that we have passion. I want to know we connect. I want to know our chemicals come together naturally. You know these other women are like you can teach someone to kiss you right? No, you cannot. People can argue this with me. Yes, you can get better at things, but I want to know that I'm going to be honest with you.

Speaker 1: 39:39

The person I'm with right now, who is the love of my life, went down on my kitty the first night because I asked. I was like please, and that's how I knew we had something, and that's how I knew we had something. I mean, maybe the first person ever to in a car, take care of my business 10 minutes flat. I was like huh, well, that's. And I was also just, I was just horny that night and I was like I want to take care of some needs and I'm kind of digging this guy on the state.

Speaker 1: 40:54

I in no way thought we would end up where we are today, but I cannot. I would never put three months into someone without knowing how we feel when we touch. And this idea, this idea that you don't get attached to someone, unless you touch them and kiss them is bullshit. You can fall heavy in verbal exchange. That's sex, that's like you get you know. Anyways, we could talk about that, but I know that's not what you're here for. I have strong feelings. I agree with the comedian. Fuck that dating coach, whatever her name is.

Speaker 1: 41:28

But the final term that I want you to clear up, and you've used it throughout this I always hear people calling their exes or someone they're angry at a narcissist, and it is a term that I think is dangerously abused, because true narcissism is truly, in my opinion, scary, it's a big deal. Scary Like it is, it's a big deal, and people who are true narcissists, I think, as I understand it and I'm not educated to your level are really dangerous people. So throwing that out about everyone who treats you like shit is it's not helpful. So could you define this term as as it should be used?

Speaker 2: 42:14

So I think the most important thing about narcissism is to recognize that there's layers of it. Okay, so when someone is a narcissist, okay, technically they should have been diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder. Okay, that is the person that really doesn't have remorse, okay, is very self-involved, um, manipulative. Okay, narcissism is usually unresolved trauma. Okay, it's not. Like you know, again, antisocial personality disorder Okay, like, uh, you know disorder. Okay, like you know sociopaths that their amygdala is 17% smaller than someone who's not sociopathic, right, like, you get some brain stuff with some of the other ones. Narcissism is oftentimes unresolved trauma, but there's layers of it.

Speaker 2: 43:08

Okay, there are people who have narcissistic tendencies. There are some people who believe that everybody's narcissistic on some level. Okay, so, for example, you know, if I am, uh, an alcoholic, okay, like, I am going to find ways to manipulate, manipulate you without remorse to get my alcohol, because that's what my needs is. Okay, is that a narcissistic tendency? You better believe it. Okay, like, so there's layers to it. And again, I know this probably confuses this question even more, but you know what is somebody's history? What is somebody's intention? Is their intention to hurt you? Is their intention to, you know, twist things around because they don't have to deal with something right, like there's there's really depth in looking at this, okay, and so you've got the narcissistic personality disorder, and I think when people throw around the word narcissist they are, they are leading towards that. Okay, and there's not. There's enough of them, but not the way that people are throwing this word around. The way people are throwing this word around is everybody is a narcissist. Okay, not recognizing that everybody has some layer of narcissism or narcissistic tendency.

Speaker 2: 44:37

The person the female, because I see it a lot with females, I see it with males too that says you know he's a narcissist, okay, blah, blah, blah, blah. If she was in the same situation she probably acts similarly, okay. So you'll oftentimes see it with affairs, but you'll see it with communication patterns. So you know the she catches him having an affair Okay, which can be narcissistic.

Speaker 2: 45:04

If you're in a monogamous, sexually exclusive relationship, right, because what you're not caring about the other person's feelings, okay, you're concerned with yourself in the in the middle of that affair because you fell for somebody, okay, and she finds out and he doesn't have the amount of remorse that she thinks he should have, Okay, cause he's got feelings for this person, okay. So, but if she was in the same situation, she may actually respond and act the same way, right. So there's some questioning that in that situation she may need to look at Okay, and sometimes it might be. I would never cheat, I wasn't raised like that. I think about other people's feelings, okay. Now, does that mean that this person is a narcissist because they had an affair?

Speaker 1: 45:59

No.

Speaker 2: 46:00

It means that for a brief moment in their life they had a tendency towards narcissism, because they didn't give a shit what, how bad they were going to hurt their partner. That does not mean that they're a narcissist. Okay. It means they're capable Like, I believe, everybody is capable of narcissistic behavior patterns.

Speaker 1: 46:20

Absolutely. I would agree with you At the end of the day, and maybe this is your opportunity to give my listeners takeaways, like with these behaviors, like how can you minimize these behaviors yourself doing them? But also I think you've already kind of told people what, what to do when they're being done to them. But if you want to sum that up, uh, for my listeners, how to minimize doing them in their own lives to other people and then what to do when they feel like maybe they're being done to them when they feel like maybe they're being done to them.

Speaker 2: 46:57

Yeah, I think awareness is is big, okay, like, just uh. Self-awareness as well, as you know. Awareness of the dating world Okay, like, you don't if, if you go fast, have a reason to go fast. Okay, um, you want to see if there's bodily connection, fine, but don't get your head and your emotions too far ahead of yourself, okay, um, because nobody wants to be in that situation where they're looking at another human being like you hurt me, okay, um, and most people don't want to be in that situation where they're hurting another person because that doesn't feel good, right. So awareness in general is just amazingly important. Listen to your, your gut, okay, set some boundaries, obviously, is all important, right, Like, if you, um don't like a behavior, let it be known. If it continues to happen, then you need to step away, right.

Speaker 2: 47:49

So, owning yourself Okay, and you know. Having dignity for yourself, right, and loving yourself. I think you had said that and I know that is almost cliche to say right now, but for whatever reason, people still haven't learned that that is a very important aspect of life in general, okay, self-respect, self-love, care you don't like the word self-love if it sounds too crunchy. You know just dignity, self-dignity, right, not allowing other people to. You know, treat you a certain way, right, like I, maybe when I was younger, and this is the problem. Right, like we don't want to wait till we're older to to realize all of this. Right, and that's what happens now. Hopefully at some point the younger people, like in their 20s, will realize this, okay, maybe even a little bit younger that they don't have to take these behaviors right.

Speaker 2: 48:46

One of my major gripes is that you know sex education sucks in this country, right, and certainly relationship education sucks. And you know we don't know what a healthy relationship sucks. And you know we don't know what a healthy relationship is. And you know people get into these abusive relationships and stay there. You know without. You know without understanding that they don't have to.

Speaker 1: 49:07

Right, right, you can leave. So self-awareness make sure you're not doing these behaviors. If you're doing them, go find a therapist and figure out why.

Speaker 2: 49:19

Yeah, understand why you're doing them right. If you're a poor communicator, you're a poor communicator. Work on that communication. If you're doing it because you, you know. I've had people tell me in my office I'm doing this because I like how it feels, oh shit. Yeah, that's different than like I don't know how to tell the person like I don't want to, you know hurt their feelings right, or you know there's there's different intentions and you got it. That's got to look at, be looked at.

Speaker 1: 49:49

Yeah, absolutely. Do you do the work man, do the work on yourself and that's a lifelong job right there. And if you feel like something's being done to you, don't jump to the conclusion that it's all bad, but bring it up. You've said again and again trust your gut. You've gotten listeners, you've gotten great advice here. Trust your gut. It may be you're reading something wrong, it may be that you guys need to work on communication, but bring it up, See what the response is. If it spirals into another one of these terms you know, and the circular conversations, then maybe like bail, Because, on the other hand, when it comes to dating these days, you do have access to lots of other people. Go find one that doesn't make you feel that way. So, you know, I think I feel like we've done a lot here today, Dr Deb. Like we've done a lot here today, dr Deb.

Speaker 2: 50:55

Yeah, and we even missed one real quick Coughing season. Be careful of this, ladies and gentlemen. So somewhere around September timeframe, right, you start to feel like fall's coming in, right, and coughing season is basically September to about little post Valentine's day, right Pre-spring. So you want to, like, hunker down with somebody for the winter, okay, but then spring, summer comes in. You want your freedom, so the breakup happens, so that you know you go down the beach and have fun, hook up with whoever you want, but you know, during the winter, when there's nothing to do.

Speaker 2: 51:33

You want a partner.

Speaker 1: 51:39

Watch out when the weather turns. If someone's suddenly so sweet to you that's been breadcrumbing you along, you know that they just want someone to like get them off through the winter. Oh man, wow, these all go together quite interestingly, don't they? It's a puzzle.

Speaker 2: 51:53

Yes, they're all very interconnected and you'll see people who have all of these behavior patterns all at once.

Speaker 1: 52:00

Ron Deb, can you give my listeners how they can find you and get ahold of you? Whatever you have to offer, let's let them know, because I mean obviously it's very clear Dr Deb has a lot of good answers for us.

Speaker 2: 52:18

Yeah, just go to my website at your sex doccom and all the information is there.

Speaker 1: 52:24

Yeah, and I will have um links, of course, in the description. Uh, do check her site out. She's got some great videos up and um. I just I love these talks with you. I learn a lot. I know my listeners do too.

Speaker 2: 52:41

So thank you for cutting out some time for me today. Yes, thank you for having me, and I will see you again soon. Yes, and listeners, I will see you in the locker room. Cheers ring loop.