Embracing Change: The Art of Conscious Uncoupling and Self Discovery After Breakups with Carly Pinchin

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Have you ever stood at life's crossroads, grappling with the earth-shaking decision to part ways with a partner? That's the very essence of our latest conversation with Carly Pinchin, where we peel back the layers of love, respect, and recognizing the moment to honor oneself amidst the throes of separation. Carly brings a treasure trove of insight as a personal trainer, nutritionist, and beacon for those navigating life's complex transitions. Our heartfelt dialogue traverses the emotional landscape of ending significant relationships, the tightrope walk between personal health and hustle culture, and the transformative process of conscious uncoupling.

The journey of self-discovery in the aftermath of a relationship's end is a terrain both Carly and I have traversed. We share the raw intricacies of codependency, the impact of personal growth on partnership dynamics, and the evolving understanding of what we truly seek in a life companion. It's about fostering connections that resonate with our souls, and sometimes that means embracing the courage to let go. We touch on the delicate dance of dating with children, the push and pull of gender dynamics, and the intriguing world of dating apps, where choices are plentiful but true connections might require a deeper dive.

As the mic lights up again after a brief hiatus, there's a renewed energy in bringing these conversations to light. Join us as we conclude with a reflection on the importance of emotional honesty in building relationships and the significance of being seen and heard for who we truly are. Your experiences, your growth, and your feedback fuel this journey, and I'm grateful for every review and share that helps "Starve the Ego, Feed the Soul" thrive. Tune in, as Carly and I navigate these pathways of the heart with you.

 Carly's Links below!
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/carlypinchin/ 

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and Background
• 2:02 The Importance of Authenticity in Relationships
• 8:05 The Challenges of Trying to Change Someone in a Relationship
• 12:39 Self-Reflection and Knowing Your Values in Relationship Decisions
• 30:30 Challenges of Dating in the Modern World
• 35:22 Embracing Authenticity and Vulnerability
• 39:00 The Paradox of Choice in Online Dating
• 43:08 The Need for Mutual Attraction and Honesty
• 46:39 Breaking Free from Societal Expectations
• 54:57 Biological Drive to Mate
• 58:38 Believing in the Possibility of a Healthy Relationship
• 1:00:38 Roles in Relationships
• 1:06:25 Considering the Impact on Children and Potential Partners
• 1:09:24 The Appreciation for Single Parents in the Dating Pool

Transcript

0:01

Carly, thank you so much for joining me on Starved to Go Feed the Soul. I've been in a little bit of a hiatus the past couple months and people have been asking me for new episodes and you are the first person I've interviewed in probably eight months now. I used to do it once a week. So welcome to the show. Thank you so much for spending some time with me and I'm really happy to have you on. Awesome, thank you so much for having me. Absolutely. Yeah. So we connected on social media, much like many people I asked to be on here come about. And you have a wide sort of breadth and depth background to what you do. Can you explain to the audience that might not be familiar with your work and what you do, how you got into it a little bit? Yeah, so I guess like blanket statement, I'm an entrepreneur. I started maybe closer to 10 years ago and I was in the health and wellness space. I started as a nutritionist and personal trainer. I started building a business in that. Then I had babies and realized I just needed to do something that provided me more space to be at home. And so I built a network marketing business. And then from there, built that, grew it very successfully and now have kind of leaned into, as I've gone on my own healing journey, helping other women on theirs. And so... I lead women's circles and women's retreats and I do things like that. I have a podcast now, just really sharing my journey as I navigate like healing and coming out of the grind of that whole hustle culture of building a business and all of the negative implications that had on me from doing that for so long without realizing it wasn't how I was meant to operate. And so helping other women in that, I've been navigating a separation. So helping people just like sharing my journey, really just openly sharing on Instagram. That's something that I've always done. is taken whatever I'm going through and talked about it as I navigate it. Because I feel like sometimes it's helpful. You always hear people talk about it after the fact, but I'm like, I think sometimes it's helpful when you're in the real and the raw to really hear from people that are moving through it. And so that's just kind of what I do now. I still have network marketing business and Health and Wellness. And then I also do podcasts and help women on their healing journeys. Awesome. Yeah, it's interesting. Like I feel like in today's day and age, you never quite know what you're getting on social media, right? Because we can always act a certain way, you know, and I think it's, you know, it's tough because I understand when people are like, you know, they they're totally against like openly sharing about the, you know, the things that they're going through. But then there's also a beauty and authenticity behind it because it really allows other people to see that someone that has a high number of following that's an attractive human being goes through the same struggles as everyone else can go through separation has to navigate this. how do they go about it? Right. And that's one of the reasons we came together to talk today is because obviously you have a unique perspective on going through the separation, going through a conscious decoupling, you know, with your with your partner who you had kids with. And I kind of want to start the conversation with and we spoke a little bit about this off air, you know, for every couple that decides to separate, whether it's one person or both people, there comes a point where one or both people decide like enough is enough. We've tried enough. This isn't working. And that point of decision making is really difficult and subjective to us all, right? Because most of us get into relationship with the ultimate goal of it working out and sustaining it, right? Kind of that happily ever after term till death do us part to use like the marriage analogy. And, you know, how did you get to the point where you made a decision like, you know, this is like, this is it, right? I'm calling I'm calling an end to this in this container. Yeah, I think my first thought when I became aware like, crap, something's wrong and something's off, to the point of me making the decision, I think was about a year and a half in between those two moments. And so what I will say is in that in-between phase when I was aware something is off, something is wrong, but I was also afraid to almost admit it because like you said, like you get married, you think you're going to be married forever. So when there was this awareness that, okay, something's off, something's wrong, I was like, but it's just gonna go away. Like that thought, it's just weird. It's just like something that must happen in marriage. Like it's gonna go away. And so I tried to ignore it. I didn't tell anyone about it. I didn't talk to my husband about it. Like I didn't even bring it up. I was just like, this is gonna go away and it's all gonna be fine. And then after about six months or so of that, or like a year of internalizing and being in this agony of like, my gosh, what's wrong? In my mind, we started having conversations about it and ultimately... I had kind of communicated what my needs were, what I was needing from him. And it was just, nothing was changing. And I think in that moment, like when I hadn't really made a decision yet, I had to choose, okay, my decision right now is that I'm not ready to make a decision. And that gave me a lot of peace because I kept going back and forth like, should I, shouldn't I, should I, shouldn't I? And it was consuming my mind. And so I had to be like, okay, right now your decision is that you're not making a decision. and giving myself that space and permission to be like, you just don't know and that's okay. Freed up a lot of space and then in that, I feel like I was able to kind of, instead of just spiraling in my mind, kind of tap into my heart a little bit more. And after about a year and a half of like, nothing was really changing. I wasn't feeling any different. Like that feeling that I initially felt a year and a half before, nothing changed. I wasn't feeling more inclined to want to work on it. And honestly, I was so disconnected and... Like I was full of so much resentment at that time. I don't think no matter what he would have done, I could have seen him in the light I needed to to choose to make it work. And so by that point, I was like, OK, I don't think there's any other option. Like I think the energy we have living together is terrible. I can't think I like had lost all creativity. It was impacting my business. And I was like, I just think the next best step is we need to just separate and you go live in your own. You can work on yourself. I'm going to focus on working on me. And maybe we come back together, maybe we don't. But right now, us living together in this process, it was just time. And I think if you're not ready to make a decision yet, it's because you're not ready. Like, you will know. There will come a time where you go, OK, like it's so... You feel it through your whole body that you're like, no, it's time, because it becomes so unbearable to keep living in the same way that you are, that eventually you have to say it, you have to talk about it and like take that next step. And was it... the absolute hardest thing I've ever done, saying it and having that conversation. Yes, because he's not a bad person. There was nothing bad, right? Like I know so many relationships like, if they cheated or they had some reason, like there was nothing. It was just a way I was feeling. And yeah, it's even harder because I feel like it felt like a very selfish decision on my part. But I feel like I almost had to move through that and go through that so that I could choose myself finally and honor what I really wanted instead of. doing everything for everybody else. And so I guess I would just say like, if you're in that in -between, it's like, it's okay not to be ready to make a decision and just trust you're gonna have one. Like eventually you will know and you'll be able to make that choice. Yeah, it can feel quite selfish, you know, for a lot of people. I think that's why people avoid even having the conversation because it can create more fissures between people too. And I appreciate you acknowledging that there wasn't like something horrendous to happen because people grow apart for various different reasons. Right. And they can grow together to like the counter thing does exist. But I think it's also important like you take the time to know that you're sure. Because I think a lot of times in our current culture, we've built this sort of victimization process. we're like, OK, we don't feel good. We're just going to get out really soon. And we don't realize that it does take a significant amount of sacrifice and effort to make any sort of relationship work. Right. But then there gets to a point where if you feel resentment building and you feel like it's just not working, like things are just not changing, then, you know, we are who we are in those moments. And if you don't want to be with that person, you have to, you know, take that take that exit. I find it really interesting because a lot of people, specifically people with like codependent tendencies, I know myself and in that and a lot of clients I work with. It's almost like people get to a point where they realize they are in a relationship with someone that they love deeply, but perhaps there is a portion of that person or situations they've been in with that person that they don't love, meaning that like, you know, they love a lot of things about this person, but then there's these big glaring things that continue to sort of wreak havoc in the relationship and. And they keep overlooking that until resentment builds and they get to a point where they know they should leave. Like even in in session, like they know they should leave, like it's not healthy for either people, but they just can't make that decision. Can you just speak more about like, you know, like you said, it was one of the hardest decisions you've ever made in your life, like the courage it took and how you got to that point of actually, because ultimately no one can make that decision for you, right? No therapist, no counselor, no friend, no family member. No one should make that decision for you because it's yours to own. How did you really get there to where you're like, okay, I'm doing this specifically with. having children involved too. think one of the big ones was me making the love I had for him conditional on him changing because I was like that is not fair and not cool that I expect you to be somebody different in order to have love for me which I was like that's a really crappy feeling I couldn't imagine being on the receiving end of that like you need to be someone different in order for me to love you not cool it also made me realize so much of our relationship in our marriage like we I got pregnant so we just got married like it was very It wasn't really a conscious choice on either of our parts. And so I started growing. I wasn't the same person that I was when we got married. And I feel like for me, I realized so much of what I thought was love was actually attachment. Like you said, like codependent tendencies, attachment. And now the place I'm in, I feel like I could consciously love someone so differently than who I was then. And I fully take ownership of all the roles I played into us kind of coming apart. But it was like that one thing of realizing I need you to be someone different for me to love you. Not cool on your part. You deserve to be loved fully for exactly who you are. And then also I feel like there's a couple of different things. Like I started noticing my eyes were wandering and I went, this is not good. Because every relationship I'm in, I'm like, I'm with you and I'm fully loyal. And now that I'm scanning rooms and looking around for other people, this is really like something is seriously wrong. And as it kept progressing, I was like, I'm gonna end up sleeping with somebody else. So it's like, we have to end up like cutting this off or else now I'm gonna, that's gonna create a whole other thing. And then in addition to that, I feel like one of the things that I reflected on and I had this conversation with someone yesterday was when I was thinking of all the reasons I wanted to stay, it was like, cause of the kids and what about this? And like, what about my business? And what about where we're gonna live? None of those reasons were because I love this person. And ultimately when you're choosing and you want to make a relationship work, that should be your first reason is because I love this person. That wasn't anywhere in any of it. It was like because I have kids and I don't want to ruin them and I don't like it was all these other things. And so I would just say if you're in that and you know your relationship isn't really working, obviously I'm like a huge I would say do the work, right? Like obviously any relationship can be a great teacher. where when you have these things that are moving you apart, they could actually bring you closer together if you choose to work through it and work on it. Having said that though, it takes both parties and you both need to choose that and want that. It can't just be one of you. And if you're willing to wait and give them the space and the time and try to be patient with them, awesome. But I think for me, it just got to a point where I was becoming a really ugly version of myself that I didn't, wasn't familiar. Like it was... I was treating him really badly. I was super cold. The resentment, I was sleeping like this every single night, guarded and just on edge. And I was like, I can't keep doing this and it's not getting better. And so after a year and a half of it not getting better and not shifting and us not even remotely coming closer together, I was like, this just has to be done. And another thing for me was I went back to if I didn't have kids, I'd already be gone. So the only thing really holding me here is the fact that I have children and I'm scared of all of the things that are to come after this. That's not a reason to stay for the fear of like the unknown of those things. It's like in this moment, what do I want? I don't want to be with you. And so that's my first step. And then I can handle everything else that comes after that once I take that first step. Does that answer sort of? no, absolutely. Wonderful answer and very complex, but I think it speaks to like how you went through the decision in your mind. I think, you know, it makes it makes sense to me how you're breaking that down, right? I think you hit a point that I that I speak about a lot and it's the idea of. love being unconditional, but relationships not being unconditional. Relationships are conditional. We're into relationships based on conditions that we agree upon. And once some of those conditions are broken, we can either try to repair or we can decide to exit. And you spoke about like, you know, I never stayed because I, the answer wasn't I'm staying because I love this person. I would even say it was probably because the relationship conditions just weren't being met. You didn't feel like it just wasn't for you anymore. And I think that can be really for people specifically when there's not like an immediate case of trauma like you brought up like someone was unfaithful or someone you know is physically violent or something like that right but these things can evolve over time you know and i think it's even harder for people to leave when there's still a lot of comfort right when it's what they know when they're sort of in this ritual like this is has my person for so long you know and they can feel like they're breaking apart a good thing they're breaking apart their family for instance because you know there's right and and i i can appreciate you being honest because for anybody looking to leave a relationship or marriage or for anybody on the other side, it's a lot heavier to be dishonest with yourself and your partner for years and years and years and not actually have real intimacy and be happy and healthy in that, right? And not to say that you're not going to have a bunch of problems in a regular relationship where both people are committed, you are, it's two people living together, right, cohabitating. But I think honesty and transparency is the only way you can get to a point for really knowing that it's real, right? Because, I mean, people can sit, On Instagram and why all day and they can sit in a house with someone they love and and and lie and being a lie You know be living a lie and they wonder why they feel miserable all the time, you know They wonder why they're not lighting up. They wonder why their creativity slips And you know, I think that it also I do like how you how you explain like, you know It's okay to not make a decision like to decide to not decide yet because a lot of people just leave right and I think it really is important to make sure that the issues that are bothering you are legitimately because of the other person and not just because something inside yourself, right? Because we have that self -work to do still in the relational container and to also give them a fair shake of perhaps changing. But you highlighted even bigger thing, which is like, you know, to require someone to change on a certain level, you're almost require you're saying like you have to be this person in order for me to love and accept you. And that is really not fully loving someone as you brought up. Right. And it's it's awesome that you, you you recognize that and see that. And I think there's, there's this like line we all walk, right? We want to be able to grow with our partners, but at the cost of making someone behave like someone they're not in the moment, it's tough because that in, in essence is like not choosing that person. Right. And so if we get to that point, well, perhaps you might be better off with someone else or even being solo, right. And re re evaluating, you know, what your deal breakers and preferences are in a human being. because if we're asking someone to change like character, things or behavioral traits that are so deeply embedded in them. It's quite hard. And even if they were to change them, it's not going to happen in a year or two years. I mean, it takes, right, I mean, 30 years to develop stuff from childhood trauma. It's going to take a long time to break it or change it. Right. and I think on both sides though, it's the willingness where I Wasn't even though he was becoming open to shifting and changing It's like you can never really change for somebody else like you have to want to do it for you and even though I was wanting him to and it all comes down to like our intimacy was weird There were so many issues in the beginning I had low self-worth low self -esteem like the person I was in the beginning that attracted each of us together Wasn't the person that I was leaving the marriage? And I think I kind of found myself, I found my power, I grew into the person I became and he kind of, he wasn't taking those same steps. And so even for somebody who, if you are on a personal growth journey or you are diving into healing or you're going to therapy and you're doing all of these things, the best thing I could tell you to do if you're in a relationship is do it together, like not together, but like read the same books or make sure you're listening to similar podcasts or... going to similar events because if one of you is growing and growing and growing and the other person is going to get left behind. And so if you want your relationship to stay together, now looking back in hindsight, I can say, had we done all of these things together and treated it like a true partnership, rather than me doing one thing, him doing another thing, obviously you wanna be sovereign and have your own stuff. But when it comes to the growth and the healing, you should actively be moving toward that together. And those conversations should be happening to keep you. connected and on the same page, where I was doing all this growth and I started diving into all of this like trauma stuff from when I was younger, because I, what happened was my entire body was in physical pain. Okay, so I was, my whole body was in pain. I was like, what is going on? Is it because I work out too hard? Like, where is all this pain coming from? I didn't understand at the time you stored emotion in your body. And so when I went to this one healer, she basically started pulling things out of me that I went, holy crap. I've just been shoving everything that's ever been. wrong or hurt me even within our relationship, like I've just been shoving it down, letting it go because it's not that bad. Like I came from an abusive relationship in my teens so it was like well no one's hitting each other like this isn't that bad. So baby baby little things that were really like destroying our intimacy and making us grow apart, I didn't deal with. I didn't communicate. I didn't and if I did try to communicate it, it wasn't met with any understanding or like accountability and so it just was easier to not say anything. And so all these little things were happening on the side, which I can now obviously look back on, that I wasn't bringing up and it was growing us further apart. And then I went on a personal growth journey personally myself. And so not only little things are happening in our relationship that's pushing us apart, but now I'm growing and going through all this work and understanding everything in a different way. And he's staying the same person he was. Not necessarily bad or wrong. But if I'm someone who is like part of, I feel like my life's purpose is to grow and grow and grow and like, navigate relationships and build true intimacy like it's not gonna work with someone who doesn't care about that same thing and Isn't understanding how important that is and so that's his own journey right to figure out Okay, do you want to navigate this and and learn this yourself? But I couldn't force it and it just got to a point where I couldn't keep putting the pressure on him every day to change and be someone different He needed to take his own space and I feel like now we've been separated for over a year yeah, just about a year since he moved out and I can actually talk to him and respect him as a human being again. At the end of our relationship, I didn't have any respect for him. I could barely look at him like he was someone who mattered. Like that's how bad it got. And so now I feel like that space, even right now, I feel like I'm in a space where like, had I seen him doing the work and he was so committed to this stuff, maybe there would be a chance for us to work through things because I can respect him as a normal human being again and I can speak to him. Does this make sense? Where like, I don't think if we had never taken the space that I would be able to see him in the light that I do now. And regardless if we ever manage or try to work through anything, it's like I can see him, respect him, and like love him for who he is now without it being in my life as like a relationship. How old are you? Okay, yeah. I asked because, so I'm 34, and I wonder if this is your same experience. Did you notice, I'm guessing you guys got together decently young, right? Yeah, that's when I first, that's my first real relationship. When I first fell in love, I was 22, right? Mm -hmm. I consider myself a very deep human being back then, even being in my early 20s, but was enamored with this girl I first fell in love with and the relationship was like a year and a half. And it's interesting because back then, if you were to ask me like what my, you know, I didn't even know what the term deal breakers was, right? Non -negotiables. But my list is different now, right? Like back then I wanted someone tall, athletic, obviously physically attracted to, you know, very like intelligent, very driven, charismatic, like the arts, like music. And I wanted depth in there, you know, and emotional intimacy too, but it was like kind of a small little dot within this giant circle of describing this perfect human being that doesn't really exist, but we're trying, right? You know, and now, you know, given all the pain and trauma I've been through with my crash being a pro athlete and with, you know, relationships that didn't work out and, you know, with all these other things, just learning and growing as a man and being in therapy and asking deeper questions of myself and seeing my own... sort of mistakes and faults in relationships. Now, like emotional intelligence and self-awareness is at the very top, you know? And, you know, like being attractive and sexual chemistry and great sex is still up there and those things are up there and all the other things that I sort of describe, but they're almost like the list, like inverted, right? Because I know that if I don't have that connection, you know, looks fade, like a lot of things fade as we age, but I want that. you know, to hold everything together because ultimately, as you said, with that growth mindset, like, I don't want to meet someone who sees that I'm doing these, doing this work, reading the books, actually applying these principles in reality and not just paying a therapist, but actually coming out of that and using things to be a better human. I want someone that's already on that trajectory. Not that they see me, they're like, that looks nice, you know, because in that dynamic, I feel like it feels like you're being a parent or a teacher. And I think the best relationships are when you can sort of share lessons with each other and grow, you know, simultaneously. And of course it's not the exact same rate at every time, but you know, I want to start at least at a base level with that same trajectory, right? Versus like I'm doing, this is who I am. This is like what I do as a human being. This is always what I've been doing, even if I look at a younger age, right? But now that I'm just aware of it, I just, it does shrink your dating pool, I feel like quite significantly, you know, however, me being aware of it knows like, I can tell within five to 10 minutes of a conversation with someone usually, whether if this is my type of potential partner on a base level to invest more time. Right. And I think same thing for me. I was 21, the gym girl, like eating chicken out of a bag, like who looks good on my Instagram profile. This guy has muscles, like perfect. It'll like the way you think is so different. And it was like, OK, good. We look really cute together. Perfect little Instagram photos. We can make the perfect little family. It'll be perfect for Instagram. Like that is that mattered to me then. Where now I'm like, no, the depth, the intimacy. Are you emotionally available? Like I even look at things like what is the situation going on with your mom or your parents or different people in your life? Like there's so much that can show a lot about a person. And like you said, if they're not on this journey already, I don't want to be the one who sets you on this. Like then there's so much to catch up on that I'm like, I don't know. I don't know if that could work. It's like you've kind of got to be already like in this yourself and then you can come together. And I feel like when you do have that awareness. then it's so much easier to be like, crap, like I'm noticing this about, you know, your own patterns and work through it together. And something that I did that I was like asked to do basically a year ago, it's called a PPV list. So basically writing out your presence, personality, values, things that you care about in a person and getting so clear on it, not out of just like they need to have this color hair and this color. I was like, sure, you can write those things, but those are pretty low on the what matters. And I feel like you start to know this as you get older too. But it was like understanding, the values part and the characteristics part because when I first got out of my relationship, I was thinking, I just want someone who can like provide me safety and makes me feel safe or like secure because I was coming out of like being hyper masculine, right? And dropping back into my feminine. Okay, well, the guy who showed me those characteristics, everything else was an absolute disaster. But I was so blinded by those two things that I was looking for that I overlooked everything else because it's, I was so hyper fixated on like, I just want somebody who can like, make me feel safe. Okay, so what did I do? Looked for this like big guy that used to be in the military and it was, I like missed everything else. And so I went, okay, whoa, take a step back, think of big picture, don't get hyper fixated on the one thing you were missing and instead look at like what really matters to you. Like reliability, integrity, the characteristics and the foundations that are gonna make your relationship work in five to 10 years, not the things that look really cute right now. And I think that's been really helpful for me, even like just entering back into dating of I need to see these foundational things that are in your character or I don't want to mess with it because I don't want to be your healer and your teacher and I don't want to be the mother role. I want to be a romantic partner. And I just like I don't even want to mess with that side of things ever again because it doesn't work. Of course, you can both teach each other things and guide each other and be on this journey together. But you probably know this, too, like. As soon as I took on the provider role in my marriage, I never could have known when I did that, the negative implications it would have had. When I was like, don't worry about it. Like, I'll make all the money. It's all good. I'll take on that man role, kind of, right? Like I was handling the finances, the business. I was handling everything. Okay, well, it didn't allow me any space to still be like nurturing and loving to him. It was like, you're just an extra annoying thing with the kids that I don't have space and time for. So destructive for a relationship and a marriage. It doesn't... I look at it now and I'm like, don't do this. It's like, don't tell your husbands to quit their jobs and say that you're going to retire them because it's going to end up in a catastrophe. And I think to be fair, like, I think many men feel that same way too, you know, in that position. I think because relationships are evolving, right? This isn't the 1960s, the 70s or 30s. It's 2024, right? And you're speaking about energy dynamics too, but one of the things that you said that spoke to me was that it almost sounded like the initial parts of the relationship were sort of built upon what other people viewed. versus like what you really needed, you know? And I think a lot of people get stuck in that, like, how will this look? How will my family feel about this? How will this look in a photo, right? How will this look with our children like this and that? And obviously physical attraction is an important part of relating. Like, you know, if you're not sexually physically attracted for something, unless you have a very low sex job, as some people do, but most people don't, you're not going to be able to retain intimacy over 10, 20, 30, 40 years, guys. Let's be honest, right? I say this, you eat the same flavor of ice cream every day. You know, it gets bland for everybody. Doesn't matter if it's your favorite to begin with. You have to be able to put some sprinkles on it. And that involves two people figuring that out. Right. But on a base level, if we're like initially picking like projective partners based on just the outward perception, you know, if we have a lot deeper emotional and intellectual requirements, we're going to fall short on some level at some point. Right. And that's part of growing. It's part of aging. Like, hopefully we get better at relating. We understand more and more of what we need. But I hear you on like the not wanting to be a teacher part and also it's interesting like stepping so much into that masculine role where we associate with like the caretaker or the safety provider like I feel like a little bit different in the role of like no one should be providing a safety or security until we feel safe and secure with ourselves, you know, and I think that like it is a man I was raised by an incredible Grandfather who was like my father figured my dad was never my life and he was always that right very very safe and secure felt very secure around him always a provider always a caretaker but as I age I also realized like you know his partner my not on my grandmother like provided a lot of that safety and security to him too so he could feel safe and secure like he had a partner right and and a lot of times we don't understand that is dynamics we're like okay well that's masculine energy well actually like true feminine energy is that beautiful mother energy we're like Yeah. And so I think that there's these bridges that cross the gap on all of those things. I think in a truly healthy dynamic, we can be, you know, both of those presence depending on what's needed, because let's say your partner loses his job, right? Or let's say he gets injured at work. Like there's gonna have to be a shift in that. But like a relational dynamic that I think is healthy and successful is both people contributing. Not one person just all reliant for being the emotional caretaker, another person being the... the physical provider, the physical protector. And I think in those, especially in today's day and age, and of course, it depends on what you're looking for. If you're more traditional, I understand that. If you're looking for a different relational dynamic, I get that too. But it's important to be honest about our capacity and also what we're looking for in other human beings because so much, we have these huge lists. And I find myself in this own cataclysm. It's like, I have this huge list and I'm almost looking for this human being. that is not real, you know, because I want them to like have all these all these things. And at some point, Alain de Valtan says this a lot, like we have to select a partner and say this person is good enough. And they say about us, this person is good enough. And then we have something to work with. Right. And I think it's hard for people with swipe culture and with Instagram because there's a good looking butt on Instagram every other day, you know, posting a deep quote. And, you know, it's like, well, how do we go about? saying this person is my person in a sea of people because there's eight billion people, you know, and I think that there's still this like inherent beauty in the relational process in that because we have this paradox of choice now where we can just swipe endlessly, you know, no matter what we're looking for, relationship, sex, whatever. And for those people that are still monogamous or consider themselves, you know, monogamous, it can, I think, become really daunting to invest time in the dating process because... There's like, there's just so many people out there and a lot of single people, you know, people that have gone through separations, people that have gone through trauma and had some relationships that didn't work out. and I'm curious, like from your perspective now, since it's been a year, are you, are you in a dating process now? How long did it take you to like, because you said you were like sort of looking like your gaze was averting in the relationship, right? But that's different than like, I'm single and I'm like consciously dating. What was that process like to you to get to a point where you were potentially looking for a different partner? and obviously that person looks and feels different than the relationship that you exited or are you not there? Like how did that process go to get to a point where like, okay, I actually deserve to have a person in my life that actually meets these needs that I have. Yeah, I feel like how you mentioned the safety security within yourself. I think I had to take a moment and go, you were codependent as F, you need to be single for a moment to like, feel how you feel without putting your whole life into somebody else. Because I think that's what I used to do was, my gosh, okay, I love you. And this is gonna be great. And I would put them almost as the priority. And so I had to kind of be like, no, you're the priority. you need to find safety and security within you. The reason this just blew up in your face, the guy that I kind of like hung out with, I wouldn't even say dated. We were friends, built a relationship, kind of hung out with him almost as a rebound, right? Right after my marriage ended, was a catastrophe, but over within like a month. So that for me was, okay, whoa, wait, like pull back and just be with yourself. So I didn't get on any dating apps. I wasn't talking to anybody. I almost was like, am I gonna stay fully celibate until I like find the person I'm gonna marry? Like I was just like, I don't want to take on anyone's stuff. I want to be fully within myself and learn how to find safety, security, comfort. And like, what do I feel like at my baseline when I'm not getting up? Like my nervous system isn't all out of whack with other people. Like what do I really feel like? What do I like to do? What do I enjoy? And so I was like, well, in my downtime, I don't watch TV ever. My ex might have loved watching TV. Okay, well, I don't even turn it on. What do I like to do? I like to read or have peace and do these different things. And so I just got to know myself. And I think that's something if you've jumped relationship to relationship, like I was always the long -term relationship person from the time I was 13. So 13 to 31 in back -to -back long -term relationships, I never took time to get to know myself and be single. So I... I consciously chose to do that. And then it wasn't until, I don't know, maybe six months later or so, my friends were like, just download a dating app, like put yourself out there and just start to see. And so I was like, okay, fine. So I downloaded a dating app, but didn't meet anyone. I went on my first date in January of this year. And so like, we had known we were splitting since December, let's say of the year before. So almost like a year until I put myself out there, went on a date, and that was the first date of my whole life. Like all these other guys, like high school boyfriends, you meet them, you just start dating them, right? Like I've never gone on dates to be like, I'm gonna start meeting people and see, like I've never done this before. So this is my first time. And so that was my first date was January. And now I feel like I'm in a position where I'm open, I'm not afraid. And it also taught me going on that first date, I had a fear of men. I had a fear of going out and being with a guy alone that I didn't really know that I was gonna, they were gonna push themselves on me and I was gonna be in a position where I wouldn't know what to do. To stop it and so that unlocked a whole bunch of other stuff for me, which was showing me like whoa Deep down you have this fear that you can't trust men like where is that coming from? And so it unlocked a whole different thing to start doing even more growth for myself and And to realize like the first guy that I've always talked to I throw my entire life into it I'm not even consciously thinking like do you fit or are you someone who this makes sense with I'm like, my gosh, we had chemistry and it was great and now we're gonna get married and fall in love and so it's been me having to be like Chill out, like don't project this fantasy that you have of these guys onto this person and just start to observe them for who they are. Let them show you who they are and you don't need to. Yeah, I just realized like I was the pursuer. Every other relationship it was like, OK, this is super masculine too. Like I'm locked in on you. I want you. I'm going to have you. And I would like get them like what guys do. And so I'm like now just freaking exist and let them come get you. And then you get to decide. Is this someone you wanna let in your life or not? So. I know I think that's, it's beautiful. What you said, Carla, I will say like, I, I, it's interesting as a man, I really appreciate when I, when a woman is quite forward, right? And does have the energy of stepping in, but I think it has to be met, right? I'm looking, I'm not looking to chase somebody. I'm not looking to be chased. It has to be mutual attraction, right? And I think the honesty and upfrontness, one thing you brought up that's really intriguing is that when you meet someone, you just put all your eggs in this person's basket and you don't even really know them yet. And I have an issue with, with what, weave you in the West is dating because most people, when you ask them, what is dating? They'll be like, well, I meet someone, I decide I like them, and then I'm dating them. I'm like, no, that's a relationship, right? Dating is when you're dating people. So you're going on dates, you can go on dates with multiple people and you're not cheating. It doesn't mean you're polyamorous. It just means you're dating. So dating is actually getting to know multiple people at the same time. It could be one person. However, dating is not... I go on a couple dates with you, I'm feeling good vibes, and all of a sudden I'm shutting the door to anybody else and I'm just dating you. That is exclusivity and that is a different thing than dating, right? And that thing should always be spoken about because many people start committing to one person, another person's like, wait a minute, I didn't even know we were in a relationship. I thought we were just going on dates, you know, getting to know each other, right? And it's important that you... that you say that because I think so many of us, and not just women, men included, because we so badly want to be wanted, we want to be secure, we want to be in love, we want to have our person exist, right? If we want to have kids, we want to have a potential partner to our children. And so we see this person, and let's be honest, we all look great within the first three to four or five months, even a year, of that honeymoon phase. And then once you get into the monotony of someone, you really start to experience who they are and who I am too, right? And there's always going to be shit that comes out where I'm like, huh, is this is compatible? And I think the better you get at dating and the better you get with people in general and with showcasing yourself, like one of the best ways to know who someone is, is being vulnerable. Be vulnerable. And that welcomes vulnerability. If someone shuts down, doesn't show, then you have information. It's not about judgment. It's just about, all right, this person is not right. So I literally can talk about anything. I'm getting to know someone, whether it's sex or kink or childhood trauma or family dynamics. But of course, this is the space I work in. Right. And so, right. It's very easy. And then, you know, I start talking about this and someone's eyes are just like, I'm like, I have great compassion. I'll stop talking about it. But I know that, like, the person that I'm going to be compatible with is a person that has done enough of their shadow work where they know that they can speak about all this because they have met it at least on some level. Right. And I don't. Again, not passing judgment, but I don't want to be in a relationship with someone that is still hiding from themselves in any way, right? And for some, that's fine. Like one of my last therapists, I've said this on the show before, but she described like this mountain because I was a pro mountain runner, so she gave me an athlete analogy. She was like, you know, you have this mountain and this is the dating pool, right? And at the bottom of the mountain, there's a lot of trees. A lot of trees mean there's a lot of people. There's not any view, but there's more people to pick from and there's way more oxygen. So obviously it doesn't require a lot of effort, a lot of people to date, right? You walk up the trail, let's say halfway up the mountain, there's less trees, you're right around tree line. You got a better view, might not be the best view, but there's less oxygen, but there's still some oxygen, right? The more work you do, interpersonal work, the higher you're getting on the mountain, the view is incredible. You can never walk back downhill. It's impossible. You're up there, you're stuck there. Congratulations. But the amount of people up there is less and the oxygen is thinner. meaning the ability to stay up there, to exist up there, to go habitate, it's just a harder process, right? Now in my mind, that's exactly the human I am. Like I want to be up there, you know, but to share that with someone is very difficult, right? Because as that person's up there, all these other things have to align, timing, physical attraction, right? All these other things. And so I always give, you know, like the advice to people with a grain of salt, like the more you study yourself, the deeper you look inside, the harder it is going to be. to find a partner that's going to meet you there. However, in my opinion, the much more fruitful it'll be when you do meet someone, if you do meet someone that's going to meet there with you because it is a soul expanding connection versus a very superfluous like procedural thing, right? And again, there's no judgment to wherever you are in the mountain, whoever you meet, like for some, me in the middle of the beer at the bottom is totally fine and totally acceptable. And that is beautiful. Relating is relating. But for me, just from my perspective, subjectivity, being around the top or continuously walking upwards is just what my calling is. And whoever I'm in a relationship with has to already be on that journey too. Because that's just what's honestly, that's where my intimacy lies. That's what's sexy to me. That's what's going to keep me interested, right? And going to sort of keep the flame in my soul alive, you know? And I feel like you have that as well too. And I think part of that separation process is realizing you have that. Yeah. So did I. teens, but I didn't have enough relational or even sexual experience to really understand like that was achievable that sorry, that was not achievable with every human being. Right. I just assume like, okay, this person's gorgeous and it's going to work out because we dig each other and we have some things in common. It's like, wait a minute, you have to ask way deeper questions. You have to be way more transparent, honest and vulnerable. And as you age, hopefully that gets easier because you realize like, There's nothing to hide anymore about the shit you've been through. Even the things you've done that have been mistakes or hurtful to other people. I share those stories about myself too because I'm a human being, you know? And I've made mistakes and those mistakes are responsible for me growing. I've had choices. Be that same person or grow and change. Yeah, and I think when you mentioned the mountain, it's so true. But the way I see it is like, you need one person if you're monogamous. So it's okay that it's getting smaller and smaller and smaller because you're gaining more clarity on what you actually, and I hate even using the word need, but like kind of what you need in a relationship and a partnership for it to work. Where when you're, because even when you first start dating, obviously you're seeing people, especially if you're on the app, it's all based on physical. And... then you can talk to someone and be like, yeah, there's no way this is going to work because we're just on totally different playing fields. It's the same thing in my marriage where you were saying like some people are down at the bottom and they like it there. Exactly. Like if you enjoy it there and you aren't in a position where you want to go deep, like really deep within yourself and uncover all your shit, then yeah, you probably should be with someone who's also on the same level as you. But for me, I'm going to push you to keep going and go deeper and connect. And I feel like that's what true intimacy really is, is like you need to both be willing to look at it, be vulnerable, be real, be raw, and allow each person hold space for that. And I've talked about this recently too, where I think so many women, especially if you look at what's online right now, it's like expecting these men to do all this stuff for them. But I'm like, what are you also gonna do for them? Because I have two sons and I look at them and I'm like, all they want is the same thing we want. They wanna know that they are safe. to be vulnerable, to share their insecurities, that you're gonna love them through it, that you're gonna fully see them and love them. And I think too many women don't see that side. They're like, what are you gonna do for me? Treat me like a queen. And I'm like, when I think about this, especially in dating, I'm like, if some guy is willing to fly you on a private jet and take you to a eight course meal and spend all this money on you and he doesn't even know you, I know that's what some of these girls are expecting right away. But I'm like, to me, that doesn't show that you're also very rational. Like you're willing to just. throw yourself into all of these things the same way I used to be with relationships. And so I think being really conscious and intentional with your time is actually a good quality. I don't know what you feel on the dating, but I've seen so much stuff where it's like, I'm not a coffee date girl. Like you better take me to, and I'm like, what if I only want to do coffee with you because I don't even like you? I don't want to sit like. Carly I love that you say this because you're a mother of young men that are going to be adult men and I think it really takes women that sort of relationship to change the tune right because so many times it's like well first of all I don't have a private jet I operate on a sliding scale and I work with single parents all the time and sometimes I work for free because I believe in the goodness human beings otherwise I'd be probably a lot more wealthy right but I think The thing is it also showcases like, what do you value? You know, like, are you looking for someone that can light your soul on fire and that you can, you know, maybe live in a two bedroom house, but be the happiest you've ever been? Or do you want like, you know, this tons and tons of money and someone's going to fly around their private jet, but maybe you don't have a connection at all. And maybe, you know, it's just, and so again, those are polar opposite of the spectrums. There could be an in -between, but it's interesting because so many times in the dating realm, and I've spoken about this before, I see women that'll say, Like I'm looking for an alpha male, like, you know, like loves his mom, like, you know, like financially secure, like, like this, this, this, and that, like, and I'm like, okay, sounds like a pretty perfect man. What the fuck are you offering? You know, like, like, what are you offering? You know? And, and I think that the other thing is like, a lot of those things are really superfluous when you get down to it, you know, because if we take away the income portion, the status portion, how many social media followers you have, whatever, you know, this, this, and we look at the actual like manifestation of a human. What are we asking for? We're asking for depth, emotional intimacy, connection, commitment, right? Security in these ways. And we're building those things within ourselves until we die. Right. So really asking is like, does this has this person done enough work to meet me where I am? Right. And a lot of the people asking to be flown across and taken to these Meals, they're pretty devoid internally. It has been my experience, at least from the heterosexual male side, if I were to go on a date with someone like that, asking for those things, which I probably wouldn't be going on dates with those women, honestly, if I'm seeing that on the dating apps. But when I have gone out with someone that's like that, it's been very, very just lackluster in conversation. I mean, you can even tell what someone... what they value with what they write, you know, like on the dating app. Because you're right, there's a very like physical thing, like I'm gonna attract this person, am I not, right? But like when someone's really authentic and transparent and they also put what they're offering versus like what they're looking for, that is like sexy to me because I'm like this person knows that it's not just about what they get against very self -focus, but also about what they give, you know? And you're trying to align those things together, right? What am I looking for? What am I offering? How do we grow together? you know, and I think that it's beautiful that you say you're, you know, you know, you realize as a mother of two young boys, like when they get older, they're looking for the same thing from, you know, from a woman. And I think a lot of times, especially even now, when we talk about the masculine and feminine dynamics, like it's so many people talk about like toxic or shadow masculinity, totally fine. It should be spoken about, but very rarely do we talk about the shadow side of the feminine. which it exists just as much. You have to have polarity to have balance, right? And so just like we have healthy parts of both those energies, we have unhealthy parts, you know? And so a lot of times that's sort of the shadow feminine that's reeking its head in that way. And, you know, I don't have children yet. I want children eventually. But I do think it takes a lot of times, it takes people to like have a kid to like really realize like, wait a minute, like I've been lambasting a certain gender for so long and then I have... young boys that I'm raising, I realized that what they want is exactly what I wanted when I was young, when I was looking for love. And we're not that we're different in this biological levels, but in emotional, we're not that different. It's like society that changes us and tells us you have to be this way. Right. You have to be that way. And as I've gotten older, I've realized, like, wait a minute, like, I also want to feel secure with my partner. I want to feel safe with my partner. You know, I said this on the show before, but like the kind of woman I'm attracted to. is one that if I were to fall, like she is gonna pick up the sword and keep fighting. You know, that's just, I would want that for my children. I want that for my family. You know, that is, there is a certain amount of polarity or sex appeal in that sort of just idea. And I'm using that as a metaphor for a lot of different things in life, right? Some people don't want that and that's okay. But that's just like, that's what I'm attracted to. But I'm like, I think when you come to a healthy place within yourself, ultimately, I think if you're kind of in your healing or like divine or whatever you want to call it, I think most of us do want the same things. Like you want to know that someone like I look at my kids and like they want to they need eye contact. They need to know that they're seen, that they're heard, that all of their emotions are that I can listen to them and like validate them. And they want to know that they're worthy and that they matter. And all the same things that I want to feel. they also want to feel. They at night want to cuddle and be so loving and like get all cutie and cuddly. Like same thing girls do. So any men that are not comfortable in that, I'm like, that's just a part of you that was trained out of you based on your circumstances every single time. Because I'm like deep down you want to feel seen. And I think for more men than women, especially, I feel like they deal with more like these shame cycles and this, this deep fear of really opening up and like allowing themselves to be vulnerable sometimes. Or when they finally did that, they let a woman in and she hurt them and so they cross it off forever. Where it's like you have to be willing to stay open. Even for me, I've been hurt before. Obviously any relationship is going to cause pain. I have no issue being fully open, vulnerable and opening my heart to you. I'm not afraid of the pain that could come from an ending of a relationship. But for a lot of men, I feel like they're way more resistant to that once they've had that heartbreak. And I think maybe it's because... you know, their emotions were never safe and then because they turned into this like crying, blubbering baby, they're like, my gosh, like I never want this to happen again. And they feel weak for the first time. I don't know. But I find with way more men, it's a lot harder. And I think even in my marriage, part of the reason that it ended is because he couldn't tap into his own heart. He couldn't say what he was thinking. He couldn't tell me that he like really expressed love. He couldn't receive any of my love. And so if you're not able to express love and receive it because you're not open to your heart, you're never gonna get true intimacy and your relationship is never gonna grow to the place that it could. But I feel like for women, I just, I watch some of this stuff and I'm like, if they could just come from a place of understanding, we ultimately both want the same thing. And if we could start dating in relationships, being fully honest, transparent, and vulnerable, at this point I'm like, I don't even know if you should be dating if you can't do that. I mean, go ahead, but like, I can't date someone who's not willing to do that. Amen. And I really appreciate you saying like, I think, I think part of the fear and again, I can't use a broad brush because everyone comes from different experience, men and women. Right. And so a lot of times, you know, society shames men for expressing emotion because it's seen as a weakness. It has been seen as a weakness. Right. And, and a lot of times like women will be turned off when they see even subconsciously they'll be turned off because we've been system like systematically programmed to see, wait, guys crying. That means he can't take care of me. He's not, he's not strong. Right. He's not he's not my protector and I'm here to tell you like that's completely wrong, right? Someone could still be your protector still be a safe space, but they still need you in that moment They're still trying to show you even deeper parts of themselves, right? I think we need more media like that I think we need more sort of shows that showcase that type, you know like I really appreciate when like, you know, I see some sort of show that shows like a strong man that's like depicted as a warrior in a character but can also be like deep loving thoughtful sensitive compassionate right those things Because that really you know that that's who we emulate ourselves on you know I remember watching cartoons as a kid and I was watching and that's how I learned right and all these like subliminal messaging as a young boy right and I think you know really it requires both you know both sexes to really open themselves up to Growing you know I mean we were still so in stuck in these archaic ways of relating and you know it's beautiful that you that you've grown into that yourself because I still think it's a really small minority you know for both men and women, you know, just very focused on like what we want, what we need, and not really understanding, you know, that these generational this this pattern of generational trauma can only stop stop if we call each other forward instead of continue to put each other down, right. And it's when I see relationships like that function in real time, whether as a counselor in my practice, or, you know, just, you know, out in reality out in nature. Mm -hmm. inspires me and it's just a beautiful thing. I'm like, yes, there are things like this that are working. I'm curious when you spoke about dating apps, which ones have you used? What have been your experience? Because people ask me about that a lot and it's hard for me to say. It's just a medium to meet people, but it's been quite exhausting for me on a lot of levels where I've been kind of turned off by them for a little bit. I want to meet someone naturally. What has been your experience with using those specifically with who you are and your status online too? Yeah, I feel like I don't really check them ever. I haven't. But last year, maybe in the fall, I was like more actively on them and like, OK, just put yourself out there. Like at least try, like at least just see what's what's on these. So I have Raya and then I have Hinge. Those are the only two. And a lot of the people that I ended up connecting with on Hinge, like moved it to Instagram, followed each other there and. I like that personally because I'm like I want to kind of get to know a vibe of you before I take my time out of my life to meet you and some people feel like you should just date right away, but I'm like I don't know anything about you. Like I have kids, I have a life, like to take a whole evening out to meet you I don't know yet and so I actually kind of like having it on Instagram because I'm also like if you see everything I'm posting and it's not for you, great. Like why are we even gonna go out anyways? And... If it is, you know, and I'm like, I also, I've had friends who they have social media too and they're like, yeah, but it's just such a small portion of who I am. And I'm like, that's fair. But I feel like for a lot of people, they can get a really good read on me through my social, because I kind of just show up as I am. So I've just connected on there and I've only gone on like two, the two people. It's like one I connected with on Instagram. We met one time. I've never really talked since. And then the other one from Hinge, it was another person and I've only met one of them. and like all the other people I haven't met any of them. So it's like from all the people you match with, I've literally met one of the people that I matched with on a dating app. That's it. Do you still? Like I think one of the issues that Instagram, social media and dating apps have contributed to is that a lot of men don't go up to women anymore or even women. Like they don't initial initiate conversation because honestly it's been demonized in society. Like you look at like Tik Tok videos and they'll be like a gal at the gym, like literally putting someone on blast, you know, that it's like looking at it's like it's a gym. Like that's usually what people do. You know, if there's an attractive person, you're kind of like, wow, you know, and then you move on your day. Obviously there's a, there's a gradient of someone being completely creepy, but a lot of times they're like calling. someone else, it's like literally just like looking at someone doing exercise, you know, and I think a lot of... yeah. these girls are going with their shorts hiked up their asses and then sports bras with their tits out. And I'm like, what do you think is going to happen? A guy's not going to be like, like, obviously they're going to look. Right. Like that's literally biologically like, like people, people like demonize it, but it's like literally like at the base level, you're designed to procreate into mate. And so when you see something you're attracted to, you're like, you know, I mean, that's just like, that's how it works. Everybody, you know, women might be more subtle with it, but you all do it too, you know? And, you know, I think, yeah, it's, but it's like, to get back to the point, it's like, you know, It's almost like people rely on, you know, social media or dating apps now where it's like, God, I still. I feel like it's still so much more sexy when like a woman comes up to me and just like says, hey, you know, you seem like an interesting person. I find you attractive. Would you only get some coffee? I'd be much more inclined to say yes to that than someone like sliding in my DMs, you know? And of course there's like, there's the whole thing with like that happening and like timing and like someone having enough courage and nature, but there's something just like incredibly sexy about that still, you know? I mean, people built relationships before the internet existed guys, so we can do it, you know? that's so interesting as a guy. So you appreciate it when people come to you. Like you're okay with it. am totally fine with walking up to someone too. That's just who I am. It hasn't always been who I am. I used to be a very shy person, but now it's not a problem. But yes, I do. I think it's incredibly attractive when a woman is forward enough and has enough self -confidence. to come up and be like, you know, like for instance, if I'm sitting down reading some like, you know, book by Carl Jung and some girl comes up to me and she's like, wow, that's, I love that book or I love that, you know, like, you know, whatever. And it starts a conversation like that is like that took her courage. It took her breaking the mold of like what women and men should do, you know, and I see into all that stuff and that's just, that's sexiness to me. That doesn't mean like I might not be attracted to this person or whatever, but it's, it piques my interest for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. it's a whole thing. I feel like even on the dating apps, I find too, it can be really exhausting. And I think how some people, I don't know, it's just, I don't know. I just think some of the ways that people talk, communicate, and I also think when you are, like you said, climbing the mountain and you're getting close to the top, now you're on a dating app with all the trees that are at the bottom, like how you talked about the trees. And I'm like, I would never even have you in my awareness in my life because we just operate in different worlds. And so it can be very disheartening, I think, when you are kind of, and I don't know what the right word would be. It's not like, I don't know, because I don't ever want to say, I know. mountain, right? And it makes me feel I want to just acknowledge that but also like there's just some validity to it, right? Like there's just a lot of people that have not looked into... There's layers of it, right? And so I get it. Yeah. Right. Right. it's like you see some of these people and it makes you be like, what the F? And honestly, for me, when I first got on them, I was like, I should probably try to make my marriage work because like this is not great. And so you kind of have to come back to having that faith within you that if I know that this relationship that I want. I can see it, I can feel it, I know exactly what it is. I'm not being delusional. I'm not coming at it from a place of fairy tale and fantasy anymore. This is real life, I know. You can cultivate this and create this in a relationship. And I just have to hold true to that and trust that if I'm looking for one person, it's okay that most people are not gonna work. Like you don't have to get upset about it. It's like, yeah, most people are not gonna be a fit and that's okay, because there's so many people and you're looking for one. Yeah. beautiful way to put it. The. I wanted to ask you, you know, specifically when we're talking about dating, dating, being a single parent, right? That adds a level of complexity, you know, that a lot of people don't acknowledge ever, right? cause that, you know, shuts a lot of people off, right? They don't want to be a part of relationship with someone that has kids with somebody else, but a lot of people are, do want to be that. How have you experienced, you know, being a mother and being single, like how has that influenced the people you're potentially selecting or, you know, potential like relational involvements because you're Yeah, honestly, I'm so fresh and new at it that I can't even really say. I think for me, it's like that's another reason I like Instagram. It's like you're going to see I have kids. So even though it's in my dating product, I do have kids. You're going to see I have kids. And if that's an immediate like, no, I don't want anything to do with it. Great. You're probably not really going to pursue me and we're not going to waste each other's time. Where for me, I kind of see it as the person I'm going to end up with is going to have no issue coming in and playing that. role and being like an amazing father figure or like male role model in their life and I think anyone right so I'm like I'm not really worried about it where in the beginning it was kind of like my gosh like what if they're not interested because I have kids I'm like then they're not the right person for me because there's lots of men who would be more than willing to step up just like me I would be willing to step up for someone else's kids and play that role if I needed to so I just I think it's like it's all the way that you come at it if you think it's baggage or like an extra added thing that's bad. I'm like, no, there's so many men who would be more than willing. And I also have friends who are remarried now that had kids. And so like one of my friends, she has two different baby daddies. This man came in and he was like, I don't care. I love you. And I'm going to show up as a father to these kids. And I've had conversations with him where he said it never would have been a deciding factor for me that she had kids or not, because I was so focused on like, this is the woman that I want that that didn't matter in the slightest. So I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. you can certainly, you know, as a man or woman, go into someone that has kids with someone else and it'd be a very dysfunctional, hard dynamic to coexist in, right? Because you're not their biological parent, you know? And other dynamics, it could be a lot easier. I think it depends on the parenting you walk into, right? And how old the kids are and their involvement in that relationship, you know? And I think it's a hard question to answer for a lot of people, you know? Because I think it takes a very unique human being to enter that sort of dynamic and do it well and be a positive figure and not cause like more rifts, you know, but a lot of people do it, right? And I think it's there's so many more blended families these days, but I also know for me, like, I still want more kids. So I'm open to having more where I think if if you weren't, then you're looking for an even different type of person that like also doesn't want more kids, but is willing to take on your kids like I still want more kids. So I'm open to that in any new partnership or relationship. And then I also think in dating, like I don't I'm not really bringing my kids into any of it. It's like I don't it doesn't even really come up a ton in conversation because I'm like, that's not really. me, like yeah I'm a mom, I have kids, but I'm me. So we can get to know each other and at the same time like if it's an issue I feel like it's gonna come up probably fairly quickly like and I would trust them like I think at this point in my life I'm kind of dating people who I think again like I just am attracting a different level of person and so I think they probably have already consciously thought about this like this is a mom, I don't want to take on her time if this is not something that I'm open and okay with. And I've had conversations with guys at similar age to me where they're like, honestly, I'm feeling like the anomaly that I'm still single, haven't been married and don't have kids. Because they're like at 30 majority of people are like married with kids at this point. There are obviously people who are totally single and haven't done either of those things, but they're like, as you get older, it's way more normal that like someone's already been married or maybe had kids and being open to that. If you're looking for a person that it doesn't have to be like a negative factor. But like I haven't introduced anyone. to my kids, I think it would be, I think for me right now, I'm like, if it goes, and we're really getting to know each other, and it's becoming something that we're gonna be in a relationship, maybe, eventually, because I'd wanna see how you interact before I keep investing time with you. But I don't know when the right time would be, or any of that. I feel like, yeah. Yeah, it's tough because it matters for your kids, but it also matters for the person. Like they have to know, you know, if you guys potentially live together, like what it's like living with your kids with, you know, cause I don't know if you have them full time or half of the time or whatnot, right? Pretty much, you know? And so that's, that's like, that's not only saying yes to the person you're in love with, but also saying yes to like the kids, cause you're going to be around them. It's a whole family. Right. into, OK, not only now do I have this, like, girlfriend, but I have a whole family. Like, I have all these people. It's a whole ass family. Like, here you go. It's a lot. Yeah. No, absolutely. And, you know, I think. Like I understand someone saying, no, I don't want to be in a relationship with someone with kids because there's a lot that comes into that. And there's a lot of people that do, you know, and I have friends and clients that are both men and women that have stepped into, you know, like mixed families and just gone well for them. And some that have, and it hasn't worked out, you know, because you can never really truly tell until you're in the dynamic, like it exists full time, right? And some people share custody, some people have their kids full time, but then you, you sort of know, you know, if you're going to fit into that. And I think it does matter on, because you're going to see obviously too, if I think of people where they don't have kids yet, your understanding of what it means to be a parent is so different than once you actually have kids and you understand what it's really like. Like who I thought I'd be as a parent and the rules I would have versus when you're an actually a parent. I'm like, all of those things have gone out the window because it just doesn't work. And so I think of this too, like when I knew the guy that I was friends with, when I met his son, I went, I'm not meant to be your mother. Like I know this isn't going to be something that's a relationship because I feel zero. And not to say I just I feel like I'm pretty conscious and aware if I was meant to have this like soul connection and life connection with you, I would have felt something with that child. He's a baby. And I didn't. And I think obviously that's a totally different realm of woo woo. But like I feel like if there's a guy that comes in with children, I'm going to be able to look at them and be like, no, I also feel something with you. And. if you don't feel that and you feel a ton of resistance to these children. I'm like, obviously that can be normal because you're not their parent, you don't have a connection, but there are certain kids where I feel an openness and connection to, and there's other kids where I'm like, like something, we're just not a fit. And so I don't know. It's like, there's so many different factors that you'd have to look into. And then I also think I would never want to subject my kids to a situation that's not helpful for them. So getting to know like, how does this person operate? I even think of this right now, like when the kids are going crazy, do you have the tolerance to handle the chaos? Or do you freak out and you need space and it's too much for you? Okay, well then it's probably not going to be a good fit to enter a relationship with someone with kids. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. something inside of us which makes us usually more tolerant when it's like came out of us You know, I like to see that with my friends. I see that with people around with children Do you feel like Like because you described like, you know having that connection with someone else's kids Do you feel like the man that would be your potential partner would would innately have that connection with your children? don't think it would happen right away, especially if you don't have kids of your own, right? I think that's something that will have to be built. But I think if you're hanging out with these kids, you're going to have to really think like, could I show up for these kids? Like, can I actually show up in their lives? And if the answer is no, then like, yeah, don't, I don't know. I think there's like a layer of obviously making that conscious decision of, okay, I'm going to show up because I want this woman and I love her and I love her. So I love her kids too. But also knowing... it could feel like a lot because you're transitioning your whole life instantly to like playing the dad role. But I also think, like I had a conversation with one of my guy friends about this because he's dating his single mom with kids. He doesn't have his kids of his own. And I said, the kids have a dad. You don't need to be their dad. All you need to be is like an uncle or a big brother. Like you don't need to come in and try to be a parent. You just build a relationship with them almost as the big brother or the uncle. And eventually if the relationship builds to a place where now you're all living together, Yeah, maybe you can take on more of a dad role, but you don't need to take on that pressure in the beginning to play dad. You just don't. It's like the same way I wouldn't take on mom with my friends' kids, even if we're together, like hanging out. I don't need to be their mom. They have a mom. I'm just there as like the fun aunt. And if they need something from me, obviously I'm going to do it. But I don't need to take on some authoritarian, like teaching role, especially in the beginning. Like if it's not serious and you guys aren't thinking about like moving in together, you don't need to play dad. You just get to play the fun uncle. when you get to that point of like deciding to move in together, it does become like if the parenting dynamic isn't healthy, like I feel like a lot of people have to step into that role of being like, you know, authoritarian figure or putting up boundaries because like it doesn't exist in a healthy. And that's why I think a lot of people have an aversion to it. Right. Because you're stepping into something where it's like, all right, like, I don't agree with this parenting, but I love this person. Like, how do I coexist with these kids that aren't mine? and that can be tough you know for a lot of people because we fall into this thing of like prioritization right if you have children and another person doesn't, there's a certain amount of energy you have to give to your kids every day, right? And that takes away whether we're willing to admit or not from our energy bucket to pour into something else. And so a person saying yes to that has to be okay with some of that energy being reserved for your children because they won't get all of that. Now they might get plenty of energy from you, but there's sacrifices we make in that dynamic saying yes to it. yeah, and I think it's also, as a man, I would think this too. It's like, if you can already see that someone's an amazing mother and you know that you want kids, that could almost be an even better thing for some people to see because they're like, whoa, I already know I want children and I want a wife and she's already got this moming thing handled. Like, I'm just gonna throw it out there, me as a seasoned mom, our phase of life, if we have kids, is gonna be so freaking different than a first time mom. Like this shit is easy for me. I'm not gonna go through any of the stuff that I went through as a first time mom. Not going through any of it. None of it's gonna be hard because I already know how to handle it and I already can compartmentalize and do all the things. So it's like there's so many pros I see too. If somebody already is a parent, you just understand things differently and I think there's gonna be men out there who I know guys even for example that only used to ever date single moms. That was who they like loved and they, because... whatever kind of weird childhood stuff that is too, of wanting to save the single mom, I don't know. But at the same time, they appreciate it because they might be really attracted to the fact that you're such a good mom. And vice versa for the dads. There's lots of women who go, my gosh, he's already a dad and he loves his kids. And so they're attracted to that because it shows a quality that when you're just dating as two single people with no kids, if someone's really selfish and isn't really going to be a good mom, it's hard to tell. And I think some people, that's super important to them. They want to see that like nurture and love and when they see that that can almost be the thing that pulls them in even more. Yeah. it's good to highlight, like, maybe that someone's trauma picking up. But I do think there's there's. You know, it could be a lot of different things. Like the argument is fair to say like, look, this person is already doing it. They're doing it well. They've got two kids that are like, you know, great kids. And I mean, I think there's a certain level of like maturity that exists in that. I mean, it changes you when you become a parent, right? I know I'm not one yet, but I'm around a lot of friends, deep people that are parents. And I can see like, you know, your priorities shift, right? Your things, she shifts like you, you, you just become a little bit different of a human being in your existence. And I think there is. no longer be self -centered. And so it's like, you realize that there's so much more to life outside of you. And I think until I had children, I couldn't really see and feel. I was so like, my gosh, what this person thinks matters and these things all outside of me. It brings you into yourself and helps you see that like, no, none of this other crap matters. And you show up differently in the world. And I think you also have such a higher tolerance for just crap. It's like you're used to just things being chaotic. And so you have... handle stress differently. Like it's just, yeah, it's a whole new layer. Carly, we could sit here and talk for hours. This has been such a beautiful conversation. Thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing some time with me and sharing a bit about your life and your journey. Can you take a moment to sort of tell the listeners what you're up to, where they can find you, how they can get in touch, how they can potentially work with you if they want to. Yeah. You can find me on Instagram. I feel like that's the easiest place at Carly Pynchon. I have a podcast too, the Expand and Evolve podcast, Apple and Spotify. And other than that, like, yeah, you can connect with me on Instagram. I post the same podcast to YouTube, TikTok sometimes. So that's really the best place. This Tecinnac movie is there. Yeah. all the links to everything into the show notes for the show guys. So go check Carly in her workout. And yeah, thank you so much Carly for joining me and I would love to have you back on. We can dive even deeper into this. This has been such a good conversation. Yes, so good. I want to have you on mine too as a male perspective because I think it's fun to talk about. I would love to be on that. Awesome. Thank you so much for having me.