Mista Pierre's Fortified 45s Show
Mista Pierre's Fortified 45s Show - Season 2 Ep 4 with David Nathan
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The Soulful Journey of David Nathan: Legacy and Influence
Join us on a soulful journey as we engage in a heartfelt conversation with the British Ambassador of Soul, Mr. David Nathan, fondly known as Uncle D.
From the streets of London to the vibrant soul music scene, David Nathan, with his five-decade-long career, he brings a wealth of wisdom to our dialogue. We delve into his fascinating experiences, from witnessing racial discrimination to working in a record store, and discuss the important role of artists like Nina Simone and Earth, Wind & Fire in shaping our musical consciousness.
In this dialogue, we explore the social complexities of the 60s and 70s, the racial dynamics, and the cultural evolution that shaped the music industry. We recall our personal journeys, our self-discovery, and the impact of certain songs and artists on our lives. We reflect on the changing attitudes towards interracial relationships, the emergence of black gay culture in London, and the vibrant disco culture of the 70s. We share stories of our personal connections with music, enlightening you with our nostalgic conversations filled with insightful anecdotes of the era.
We also discuss the deep connection between the soul and soul music, leaving you with a deeper understanding of our relationship with music, culture, and personal identity.
So, tune in, listen to our vibrant conversation, and let us take you on a journey through the soulful lanes of music history, personal memories, and cultural evolution.
Intro Song
Yes We Can Can - The Pointer Sisters
David's Choices
Walk On By - Dionne Warwick
I Put A Spell On You - Nina Simone
I Have Never Loved a Man (The Way Love You) - Aretha Franklin
Walking Up a One Way Street - Willie Tee
Armed & Extremely Dangerous - First Choice
Fantasy - Earth, Wind & Fire
External Links
David Nathan.com
Hosts: Mista Pierre
Producer: Mista Pierre
Mista Pierre's Fortified 45s Website
Mista Pierre's Instagram
Send us a text with your support, comments or feedback.
The Soulful Journey of David Nathan: Legacy and Influence
Join us on a soulful journey as we engage in a heartfelt conversation with the British Ambassador of Soul, Mr. David Nathan, fondly known as Uncle D.
From the streets of London to the vibrant soul music scene, David Nathan, with his five-decade-long career, he brings a wealth of wisdom to our dialogue. We delve into his fascinating experiences, from witnessing racial discrimination to working in a record store, and discuss the important role of artists like Nina Simone and Earth, Wind & Fire in shaping our musical consciousness.
In this dialogue, we explore the social complexities of the 60s and 70s, the racial dynamics, and the cultural evolution that shaped the music industry. We recall our personal journeys, our self-discovery, and the impact of certain songs and artists on our lives. We reflect on the changing attitudes towards interracial relationships, the emergence of black gay culture in London, and the vibrant disco culture of the 70s. We share stories of our personal connections with music, enlightening you with our nostalgic conversations filled with insightful anecdotes of the era.
We also discuss the deep connection between the soul and soul music, leaving you with a deeper understanding of our relationship with music, culture, and personal identity.
So, tune in, listen to our vibrant conversation, and let us take you on a journey through the soulful lanes of music history, personal memories, and cultural evolution.
Intro Song
Yes We Can Can - The Pointer Sisters
David's Choices
Walk On By - Dionne Warwick
I Put A Spell On You - Nina Simone
I Have Never Loved a Man (The Way Love You) - Aretha Franklin
Walking Up a One Way Street - Willie Tee
Armed & Extremely Dangerous - First Choice
Fantasy - Earth, Wind & Fire
External Links
David Nathan.com
Hosts: Mista Pierre
Producer: Mista Pierre
Mista Pierre's Fortified 45s Website
Mista Pierre's Instagram
Hey listeners. I thought I'd just quickly check in with you guys to ask you a quick favour. Listen if you like what you hear. Please leave a review on iTunes podcasts. It would do me a great favour. I'll get some feedback from you guys and it'll also help with rankings and help me produce more episodes going forward. Don't forget to like and subscribe and go on and enjoy the show. Can I just hear you?
Speaker 2:Yes, you can hear me.
Speaker 1:You're a bit far from the microphone. Do you want to pull it towards your mouth a bit?
Speaker 2:I beg your pardon. Don't be cheeky. How dare you? And now the new sensation of the nation. Here's Mr Piers.
Speaker 1:Woo, How's everybody doing? I know that intro's a little bit over the top, but I'm sure you know what I'm like these days. Welcome to 4545. My name's Mr Piers. How's everybody doing? You may be able to tell that I'm a bit under the weather. Don't get it twisted. I'm not being a mownie pony. However, I think you'll agree that I'm a little horse. A long weekend in Dublin may have been a contributing factor, but I'm going to try and keep it moving regardless. Now onto some quality material. Check the lyrics to this song. It couldn't be any more apt.
Speaker 4:I know we can't make it. I know that we can't. Yes, we can. I know we can't make it.
Speaker 1:If we try. Oh, and before I forget, congratulations to Carl Gross and Daniel Hamilton for tying the knot. Proud of you, both boys.
Speaker 4:And we gotta take care of all the children, the little children of the world, cause they're our strongest hope for the future, the little bitty boys and girls. We got to make this land a better land than the world in which we live. We gotta help each man be a better man with the kindest that we give. I know we can't make it. I know that we can't. I know down where we can work it out. Oh, yes, we can. I know we can't, can't. Yes, we can't, can't. Or what can't? Well, if we want to? Yes, we can can't. I know we can't make it work. I know that we can't make it. Well, if we try, I know we can't, can't gosh, you're mad at us.
Speaker 1:Yes, we can. I know we can't, can't. So unto my guests. The renowned soul music expert, the award-winning music journalist we're talking about Blues and Soul and Billboard, to name a few. He's also been the contributor to many books and publications around the world spanning five decades. Out of respect to Boogie Hierarchy, I'd like to call him Uncle D. Uncle D gave me a lesson in history across the board, and I'll leave that for you to explore for yourself. So, without further ado, welcome to 4545's. The British Ambassador of Soul. Ladies and gentlemen, Mr David Nathan 4545, 4545, 4545, 4545, 4545, 4545, 4545, 4545, 4545, 4545.
Speaker 2:How you doing, sir? I'm fine, I'm fine, yeah, you good, you doing fine, yes.
Speaker 1:Now tell me I had my little spider sense on Facebook and all the social apps and I realised you're in the country, so I dropped kick during coming over to come and do the show.
Speaker 2:Thank you for doing that Big, massive amounts of massive, big bribe, big, big, big bribe.
Speaker 1:I'm cashing a brown bag. Thank you for making the time for us to come on the show. How are you? What are you doing on this side of the pond?
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, this is still my primary residence, even though in the last, I'd say probably since December of last year. It's when I first started to travel again after pandemic and I think I've been to America about six times since then and, to give some context, that I did live in America for 34 years. It's like I went somewhere I've never been, so I'm currently here for a little while. I'm a fan of the winter, so since I get away, I'm gone.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, no, I get that, you know. Actually, I really like your accent I'm an accent freak and you've got a perfect balance of American and English. And somebody told you that before.
Speaker 2:Yeah well, when I'm in America, people it sounds more bushes to them, and then when I'm here it kind of lapses into something else. So I tell people it's just a transatlantic accent.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So are you permanently here? Are you more in the States now, will you say.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, yeah, in as much as I live here and I have a place here, I could say I don't usually permanent. Yeah, I just say this is where I live right now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:It sounds funny to say this because I thought about when I was about to say I'm a natural nomad. But it's actually not really true. I've only lived in two countries and even when I think about how long I've lived in certain places, I didn't live there, for I mean like when I was in Los Angeles I was in the same building for 20 years. So that's not quite as nomadic as I'd like to fantasize. I am Not as nomadic as I in my head I think I am but I'm not.
Speaker 1:That's good. Well, look, I mean, there's loads of reasons why I brought you on the show A for a music perspective.
Speaker 2:Part from that. I'm fabulous and wonderful, exactly. Oh, shucks, stuff or any stuff, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, but yeah.
Speaker 1:I agree with you. I know it's to give you your flowers. Look, you've done so much for some music, for music in general, and I think it's important, as a DJ, to give people who have contributed to music in various ways their flowers. So I'd like to use this platform to first of all thank you in case I forget and get in broad in your story and not even give you the thanks to give you your flowers and, as part of this show, to share your story with everybody else, but to give you a flower and say thank you for your musical contribution.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you for that. It really does mean a lot to me, in particular because I think one of the things I am challenged by is in because I spent so many years away from Britain, I understand that when I came back here I had some ridiculous idea. There I was like hi, hey, hey. And it's not really like that, because most people don't even know who I am here because I wasn't here, and so when people in Britain such as yourself now I'll give you some we'll say props for all I've done, it does mean something to me. So it's very different when I'm in America, because I spent so many years there, I met so many people, I did so much work there, that there's a different level of respect there and it's not like bad, it's just different. So thank you for that. It's really nice when people here really do recognize what I've done.
Speaker 1:Well, we need to sort of out everybody. Go to davidnathancom check him out. You can find all about him, what he's doing, but if you want to know what, who he is and what he's done, that's what this show is all about and to share some good stories as well.
Speaker 2:Good stories, so good stories.
Speaker 1:Let's start from the top. Let's talk to me about your parents, where you were born and how you got into music in the first place.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, no problem. Well, I was born. I was born by the river.
Speaker 4:I was not born by the river, okay.
Speaker 2:I was born, sorry. So my parents were the first generation of each of their families to be born here. Okay, their parents were from different parts of Europe, so it's not one country. I mean, my dad's lineage goes back to Portugal, then it goes to my grandfather was from Holland, so somewhere in Portugal, ended up being in the Netherlands. My paternal grandmother was Romanian and my maternal grandparents were well, we don't know if they really were Polish, because they didn't have Polish names. So that's where all my family's from. So I was born of immigrants, of immigrant families, I should say, and they were working class. I mean, my dad was a fish and chip shop, excellent Manager, and apparently you can only find these things out as I got a little older. He had a good reputation, he had a particular way of frying fish, so, and actually had a nickname in the family. They called him Jackie Fish, love it, love it. His name wasn't Jack, they were Mark.
Speaker 1:So did he live above the Chippy.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, well, originally no one was. I was born in Manor House and at that time we lived in Stoke-Ewington on a street called Casino Road oh, I know that, I know it. Yeah, at that point no, that was a flat my dad, my mom and dad rented and my sister was born there too she was born four years after me and to that whole area, stoke-ewington, stamford Hill, so forth. And then we moved a few times. The part where we really kind of took root was in Kilburn, northwest London, and that would have been about the mid this late, no, early 40s, early 50s, somewhere like 1954, 55, something like that. And so we lived in Kilburn.
Speaker 2:Above a fish and chip shop there was a fish and chip shop chain called Kruzos. All right, kind of not very original, it was called Kruzos, but there you go. Hey, it was a chain of few shops here and there and my dad was a manager and we lived. So there was a shop with a restaurant, part of it as well, where you could buy the fish and chips take away, and then they had the restaurant in the back and then the next floor was this massive room that had big vats of oil in it where they stored the oil for the fish and chips making the batter and the chips. Big masses of vats of oil. Above that there were two more floors. This is where we lived. Where you lived in, there was one floor which was my mom and dad's bedroom kitchen, blah, blah, blah, and above that was the last floor of it.
Speaker 1:So it's like a big building, so the smells didn't come up from the peppermint fruit.
Speaker 2:Well, I don't know that they really did, but my mom was very conscious of the smell, so she would make sure that we she did laundry a lot, right, because obviously, again, the smell of fish would be there, but she made sure that she's living, she could make sure it wasn't. So that was where I grew up. Most, I would say it's primarily where I grew up. In terms of my education, I went to a school in Kilburn and then I oh yeah, and then we had some music. Here's the.
Speaker 2:We did have music in the household because my dad liked to collect 78s. Wow. So we were people like he liked opera singer Mario Lanza, okay, and he liked Al Jolson. And then, as we went from that, at some point we had 45s in the late 50s, mid to late 50s, because I didn't buy them because I was in school, but they would buy them. I think my dad bought. I don't know my mom and dad bought them. I don't really know who bought them, but one of them bought them and at last times we would hear things on the radio and I was like, oh, can we buy that? And so that was our last period of mid to late 50s would be, I remember 45s by some American artists like Perry Como and Dean Martin not for me.
Speaker 4:It's soulful, but there you go. Hey, that's what it is.
Speaker 2:But we listened to. And then there were British artists of the time, a singer called Alma Kogan, there were a lot of. But the thing's so funny because I do remember one person whose records we did start to buy was Cliff Richards. I mean, we got like 56,.
Speaker 4:We just ever got that.
Speaker 2:And then I had this really fascination with some of the people whose music we heard, and of course that's when we first had our black and white television and eventually color television and so see people on television. Oh, I want to get. Can we get a photo of some? I don't know where they came from, but because a lot of the people who come to the shop were, I don't know if they were involved in entertainment, but somehow my dad was able to get photographs of some of these people.
Speaker 1:So quick question what was? It like culturally around there. So I know Kilburn historically had been the Irish area. He was Irish.
Speaker 2:Was it quite Irish when you moved there, it was almost totally Irish. Wow, in fact it was kind of weird, I mean, at that point. Yeah, an Irish pub right next door. Okay, most of the people who worked at the shop with my dad were Irish. Let me see what else. No, what? Yeah, as I remember, it was just primarily Irish.
Speaker 2:And then we didn't quite fit because, well, first you should observe I didn't say it, but it may be obvious that my parents, while they were my family, background was immigrants and by I always have a bit of a chance to figure this out. By race, I guess one could say they were Jewish, but we didn't really practice it as a religion like some of our well, most of our family didn't actually. But yeah, so from an ethnic standpoint I guess you could say we were Jewish in that sense. I've never quite figured out how that gets worked up to in race and religion, but yeah, so for once it was kind of. We worked an anomaly in that way, and I will take a very quick, very 10-second story.
Speaker 2:So when mum had to take me to register in school, and the only school she could take me to at that time was St Mary's, it was a Protestant Church of England school, but that's the only place she could take me, because that was the only place there was an opening when I was six or seven years old, about six years old, and I remember she told the headmaster listen, it's fine, go bring my son here and then my daughter I'll bring her later when she's old enough. And he said but she told him, listen, it's fine, but do not make my son say in the morning, you know, in the assembly he's not going to say prayers.
Speaker 1:Wow, so that's interesting actually. So, even though white, if you like, you still stood out or felt slightly different, because it was an Irish area and you had a Jewish ethnicity, that you didn't practice that much, but it made a difference enough for you to stand out.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, because in school, in the first primary school, there was only like three other children who they might enjoy I think one would they probably three Jewish children have a school, of having people there. So, yeah, immediately had experience of that being different and that kind of continued throughout my childhood actually.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so as time progressed then, and then obviously had Africa being African people moving in. Do you want?
Speaker 2:to tell me, because I think it's an honor to share with me. Do you want to tell me?
Speaker 1:your story about that, how that became influenced musically and culturally for you.
Speaker 2:Well, just to say that, yeah. So just to go backwards for a moment to say that the music. So there was the 75s, the 78s, 45s, and then by the time we started getting to LP 33 to 33, I'm trying to remember I was telling people, you know, they said, well, do you listen to any music? Well, yeah, but the only LP's we bought I mean I didn't buy them were Soundtracks. So the King and I, south Pacific, west Side Story, seven Brides for Seven Brothers, I don't know why. I guess my mum liked them because she bought me. Are you a musical? You like musicals?
Speaker 1:Well, you're Well let me no, no no, no, no, no.
Speaker 2:Actually I liked the music then but I have never. I've gotten to like some musicals, but I don't fit the stereotypical gay man love of music. I just thought that we're silly. I mean why people give them silly Me too. And the story and they break into some why. Me too, and I've never been, so I've never been a Broadway babe.
Speaker 1:I've heard that term before. I like it. Yes, I was thinking that.
Speaker 2:And now I mean I think there are some musicals I like now, but I'll tell you, the one that I did love at the time of all the ones we talked about was West Side Story, the two King and I and West Side Story.
Speaker 2:And that story of West Side Story was amazing. I remember we all went to see the film, like my mum, dad, my sister and myself, and yeah, my mum was crying. I mean it was like very emotional, because a lot of that is about what people deal with as immigrants and being outsiders. So at some point in the time period though we lived in Kilburn, the population did such a change. I would say probably in the let me think, probably like 61, 62, 63, around that time period, it started to become more culturally diverse. So it had always, primarily always been Irish, and with some English people too, but mostly Irish. Then it started to become more Caribbean, or Caribbean Caribbean's was the right way of saying it, and so we noticed that, and how that affected me specifically was that, yeah, it's pocket money.
Speaker 2:I worked at.
Speaker 2:There was a record shop around the corner where we lived in Kilburn High Road, and the record shop on Woodland Lane was literally around the corner, and it was called Music Land. Music Land was started by a guy called Lee Gopfor, who was a very smart entrepreneur from Jamaica, of Indian ethnicity, and he also apparently had a lot to do with what was happening in Jamaica before he came to live here in terms of the whole burgeoning music scene of Scar and Bluebeats. So he was already involved in somewhere in that back then. So when he came here and so he's record shop called Music Land, he was very smart. He had imports come every week from Jamaica, which was very, very smart, because that was a way for people here to connect with their homeland, because most of the guys that came to buy records on Saturday mornings at Music Land would have been like in their early 20s. Maybe then many of them had not started families here and so that was a connection to home. So that's when I first started to become familiar, as best I could, with certain accents.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:I remember they just coming on Saturday morning latest from Jamaica. I'm like okay, and then I would have to try to. Oh okay, prince Buster, you're playing for Prince Buster. Lord Kitchener, I played them there because you could play a little piece on the tone table.
Speaker 2:I was like yeah, yeah, yeah, all right, buy that one. And then they would say any American? And that's when I, at that point, had begun to listen to R&B or what was it. Soul wasn't called soul, then R&B, so I would have things. So I tell you, the one record I never forgot this that when I played it they always bought it was Otis Redding's version of my Girl.
Speaker 3:I got a sunshine on a cloudy day and it's cold outside. I've got the month of May. That was his. That was his first hit in England, that's really interesting.
Speaker 2:So first of all, did you actually like music?
Speaker 1:or did you go there for the pocket money? Oh no, because I both spoke, because I really did.
Speaker 2:By that point that I was doing, I would have been in 1964. And at that point I was like, and at that point is when I had to first start to develop my own interest in pop music, and that began with the Beatles actually.
Speaker 4:I loved the Beatles.
Speaker 2:Because like well, yeah, and all the kids of my age you know kind of had to if you want to be in the end crowd at school. You had to like the Beatles.
Speaker 1:The Beatles and Ronnie of Stones were there too.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I was a Beatles guy, of course, of course.
Speaker 2:And so that was the beginning. And the Beatles they would mention on the back of the LPs. They would list some of the artists who they had done versions of songs. So they would mention, like the Miracles really got hold on me and they say it wasn't, they didn't write it. Whoever wrote the notes on the back of the LP would mention that and they'd say, like they'd show shells, baby, it's you. So that's how I became aware that the Beatles were doing these songs by American artists. So that's really the beginning of that part of it. And yeah, so by that time I was starting to be interested.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and can you tell me about? You told me a really interesting fact which I want to share with the listeners the relationship to Nina Simone and Scar In terms of the beat and why my baby just cares for me was quite a popular song at that time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so how that became. Well, let me go backwards. So after I started listening to R&B or R&B at the time, which was with Dion Walk On by was my first record right, we have to play that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then about. I said probably. And I first heard of Nina Simone as a name when Dion did an interview with Music Magazine and mentioned that Nina Simone was one of her favorite artists of the time. Oh right, so I said I don't know who this Nina Simone is, I can't find out who she is, blah, blah, blah. And then I started listening to Nina. I was like, oh my, amazing. And a lot of the other people around in that time were having so fan clubs for American artists, so I thought I'll last up one for her, cause it gets like beating in the in-crack. You don't want to be your outsider.
Speaker 1:Of course you got to keep it moving.
Speaker 2:Right and so anyway. So I didn't stop the Nina Simone fan club, so I was the Nina Simone Appreciation Society.
Speaker 1:Nice.
Speaker 2:Not a fan club, cause she didn't seem like a fan club person even though she called it a fan club Anyway. So that's how I found Nina Simone music. And then in 1966, I had Ruckle Shoppe with two other guys Dave Golden who started Tamro Moten Appreciation Society, and a friend of his, robert Blackwell, who says Ruckle Shoppe is called Soul City in Deppford Right, and at that point most of the custom or Deppford at that point was very heavily West Indian. I don't know if it was much anything else.
Speaker 2:Maybe I'll keep my other play, but I just remember on Saturday mornings guys would come in to ask for American records that they couldn't get easily from a major record shops. So they came to Soul City to get them and they were records they heard. They heard them from radio stations in Florida which would beam because of the signal. They would hear them in Jamaica and other islands and there were these few records they loved and they would all come in the same people every Saturday. My baby just scares, needs more. So we can't get it because we couldn't get it. So that is how that interest in that developed and it really was. And that song was on her first LP ever in 1959 that she recorded and it was like she's like 11 songs. She's an 11 song recording session for her first LP. But it wasn't like a hit or anything, but because of the way she did it, the song was originally done by Frank Sinatra, didn't?
Speaker 1:know that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, it was the same song, but the way Nina did it that had that kind of scar rhythm and that is why the guys wanted to buy that record. That's why I so love that record.
Speaker 1:Well, look, let's jump back to the first song, which is Walk On by. Let's play that and we'll talk about your relationship with that first.
Speaker 3:Okay, All right then, if you see me walking down the street and I start to cry each time we meet, walk On by, walk On by. Might be me and you don't see the tears, just let me grieve. And five it's cause. Each time I see you I'll break down and cry. Walk On by, walk On by, walk On by. I just can't get over losing you. And so if I seem broken in two, walk On by, walk On by Foolish pride that's all that I have left. So let me hide the tears and the sadness you gave me when you said goodbye. Walk On by, walk On by, walk On by. Walk On by, walk On by, walk On by Foolish pride. That's all that I have left. So let me hide the tears and the sadness you gave me when you said goodbye. Walk On by, walk On by. Now you really gotta go. So walk on by. Stop, baby, leave it. Never see the tears or cry.
Speaker 1:Now you really gotta go, so walk on by. So that's Walk On by by Dion Warwick. That song is just polished. It's funky, Is that Bert Backerac? Am I right in saying that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, let me correct you, cause people say Bert Backerac. No, it's Bert Backerac and Hal David because, let me tell you something, my friend If there were no lyrics and it was just a Bert Backerac melody, they never wrote any lyrics, Bert Backerac never wrote a lyric ever.
Speaker 2:So without Hal David's lyrics, you wouldn't even know what that was. That told me, boy, I like that. But you're not the only one. And I have to say there's a pet peeve because Bert Backerac with respect, although he's not here with us any longer he often wouldn't recognize I mean, he knew that, but he would when people say, oh, I love your music, but you're the Bert Backerac music, but you can't.
Speaker 2:There's no music without those songs the lyrics and Hal David was one of the best composers of lyrics ever. That's all of his lyrics, all those songs, alfie, what the world is down. He is the lyricist. So we just had Bert Backerac just wanted for the soundscape and the overall Well he was a composer and you know, in collaborations you usually have a composer and a lyricist and so he was a composer, but they produced that together. That song is nice man, I know man.
Speaker 1:It's polished. It's a great choice. You want to know why? Yeah, go on.
Speaker 4:Before you get somewhere. Yeah, go on, tell me the why. So why Break it down?
Speaker 2:Well, the end of 1963, I'm still in grammar school, and before Dion there was Sylla Black. Yes, Sylla Black with her red hair and Sylla Black now we won't get Freudian, but my mother also had red hair, Don't make it mean anything. But I was completely besotted by Sylla Black.
Speaker 1:She was about. She produced by Bert Backerac as well.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, no, she was a prodigy of the Beatles Liverpool. No, she did not. I think she won recording session with Boatback right, but she was usually produced by the same producers of the Beatles George Martin. Anyway, love Cilla Black, amazing, amazing, amazing. I love, crush on her. She's like a voice. Oh, yeah, man, I liked her voice, but I always said a Crush on her, is it? Yeah, I've been in crushes, you know, alright, anyway, so, and I'm a schoolboy, of course, you know we were in crush. Maybe Do you have any crushes.
Speaker 1:Of course, oh my gosh, where do?
Speaker 2:I stop. Oh, you have a.
Speaker 1:Come on, let's talk about your crush, magnum. What is his name? What's his name?
Speaker 2:Magnum, the guy I don't know, tom Selleck, oh, you had male crushes, yeah, oh, okay, don't, I didn't. Okay, not that poor, that guy.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, so I like Tom Selleck, 6 Minute Donner man. The list goes on. Don't get me started. I won't. Yeah, this post goes on logging up, we'll stop right there.
Speaker 2:Alright, that's right. It's a funny show, not really. Alright, we'll get about family You're talking about.
Speaker 4:Anyway, moving on, moving on.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, Selleck Black. And then. So she had recorded a song called Anyone who had a Heart, and I'm not getting into the story of it because it takes too long. The point is she recorded. It was Dion had recorded first and Selleck Black was massive hit in England. And I remember one day in school there's a guy, One of my schoolmates, a guy called Roger Walters, Not Roger Walters, he's a famous rocker.
Speaker 2:Alright, does it, and he was like we're all a fierce argument. He said you should, you only like Selleck Black version because you like her. And I said, well, yeah, I don't like the Dion version because I don't like the trumpet. In the middle of anyone who had a heart, he said yeah, yeah, yeah. He said yeah, yeah, yeah, here it is. So you had a big musical discussion.
Speaker 1:That's quite good, yeah, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2:I can tell you not lying to you I can actually see where we were in the class. You're on a break Amazing and we'll have this little conversation Because people love music back then. Be all all that stuff going on. So, yeah, and anyway, so that that so, and then the next follow up of from Dion was Walk On by, and I know it sounds terrible. It shows you how fickle a human being can be as a teenager, but we did a certain time period. After that All the Selleck Black photographs came down and all the Dion photographs went up, which probably tells you a lot about me.
Speaker 1:But we won't go there yet, yeah you don't have to, it's all right.
Speaker 2:So Dion and then. But the song itself had a lot to do with a real crush. So I was in school and, like I said, we had a girl school across the street and so I had a crush on a girl called Marilyn Wolfe. I was just like again like oh my God, and she was a big girl. This is wrong.
Speaker 2:I don't know what to say Like but she was a big girl and she was a, she was somewhat bosomy. La Baocon she was, yes, and I was this little nerdy little guy, geeky little guy.
Speaker 4:You know, but yeah you know anyway.
Speaker 2:So and so Walk On by was like how I felt that when I was, I didn't, I was always scared to speak to her. And I'll tell you a story. This is a very quick story. So when I was, like you know, I never talked to her. So I found out where she lived, because back then you could find people's phone numbers and all that in the book a phone book, Damn. And I know, and I kind of didn't stalk her. Well, I found out where she lived Damn, I know, I'm terrible, I'm terrible about that and on this one Saturday morning I called her from the phone booth near where she lived and I said hello, this is.
Speaker 2:Dave, she I think that's me to Marilyn yes, this is Marilyn, she said. I said this is David. I go to school across the road from you. So, oh yes. I said, well, I just want to know if I'm I'm, could I go out with you? And she said I don't. How old are you? I said, well, I'm like 50. So I don't go out with younger boys. Oh dear, and that was that as my first heartbreak man.
Speaker 1:Heartbreak. How did she like that?
Speaker 2:So all I know is this that that was out, for I mean I would. I bought the Dion first LP presenting Dion Warwick, as it said, america, and every song on that LP was expressing how I felt, you know, and the songs were. So I feel like this is a song times you're like, oh boy, I cry a love. This is all this LP game, ready for the heartbreak, this empty place. I mean I was like ha ha, you were in your emotions, man.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, and you know that now I'll tell you this is good, because this, as we continue to talk, you'll find, is the theme that runs through my entire relationship to music. It's the emotions that it evokes. It's the emotions that I can empathize with. It's the emotions I feel that get expressed through the music. So it's always been that, always, it still is, and you know what the music that I found most, I guess, reflected those feelings was. At that time we would call R&B and soul music, because there's something about the way that music was delivered and the expression, the emotions in it that matched how I felt, and I couldn't hear that in a lot of the pop music, because it wasn't like that in Britain. It was over, you know and those songs you know, if you put the song with Dion, that LP, that's it. Man, that was the thing I mean. It just helped me get through it.
Speaker 1:Amazing, amazing. That's really Like therapy. Yeah, as music is, music always will be therapeutic for me Totally. Because it is so descriptive where it's classical hip-hop, rock, whatever.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:It's so amazing and sometimes you'll play a song and you'll have a different relationship with the song. Depends how old you are.
Speaker 2:Absolutely as you go back to it.
Speaker 1:oh, that makes sense now. I thought it meant something else at the time, and then you can revisit it and it's like a new song to you because of that.
Speaker 2:And you know what? The walk on by, even as we were just listening to it, I could still have the same emotions. Yeah, I think that's one of the most amazing. I mean, it is my favorite recording of all time, no question.
Speaker 1:No question, yeah, and do you think? Because it is a soul record, but because of the sweeping strings and the clean production, it is actually quite cinematic as well as everything as well. So it's beautiful, beautiful, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think what people would start to call it uptown soul because of the strings and the arrangement. It's not a hardcore like funky record but, yeah, uptown soul.
Speaker 1:And just going back, you referred to Silla Black and the Beatles and stuff. One thing that I really liked about the Beatles apart from them being amazing is when they got Billy Preston involved and stuff like that. I was really impressed by his piano work. Billy Preston one of my I think his family as well. I think he was amazing, his input there as well and I like his stuff as well. That gave him extra credence for me and the. Beatles in terms of their open collaboration as well.
Speaker 2:That's right, absolutely. And then they also, if you know, at some point during that, when they first saw Apple Records, they signed Billy Preston and Doris Troy, who was also a great one of my. I think of Doris Troy who I miss. I still miss her. She was like my godmother in the music industry, right? She gave me all the tips to not have to deal with things. She said, baby, baby, you know, make sure you get your money you know, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Make sure you get paid. Yeah, yeah. But Doris Manch was amazing. Just one look was her big hit. But yeah, an issue with Beatles, with George Harrison and Billy Preston and stuff, yeah, great human being.
Speaker 1:And how did you feel racially? How did you feel that you fitted in? Hopefully Were you quite broadly upset. Did you have to get respect? Or you just fit in seamlessly, in terms of the respect the West Indian or the black population had in terms of the music you were enjoying and selling, because some people may think, oh, you're just making money off our culture? Or did you just fit in seamlessly, based on your obvious integrity?
Speaker 2:Well, I think if we go back to the music land, of course I was working on part time, I was doing satis, so it wasn't really about that, I was helping them out Then I think, at some point when I started to become more aware of different aspects of the music, so it was much more a school to educated and different artists and knowing it. And one of the things that I find interesting is some ways people who are record collectors are like stamp collectors, yeah.
Speaker 1:They're like oh man, passion. I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know what you're talking about, Passion.
Speaker 2:Passion, yeah, yeah, of course.
Speaker 2:But, I've got to get that one going, of course. So it becomes like a knowledge. You like the knowledge about that? So by the time we get to 1966, where we had the record shop Soul City, I knew a lot and I started to know more about it and I think I saw interesting, I don't wow, I think I'm thinking back to this. You asked me about the racial aspect of it. See, back then it wasn't, I mean, when we had Soul City in In Death Fudge, death Fudge. Yeah, we're just customers. We didn't. I don't think, oh yeah, they were seeing just customers come in. Yeah, that was the reason I mentioned that particular group was because of those particular, the few records they wanted that we could not get.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but yeah, I didn't the reason why I asked you that is it's quite based on the culture of the country at the time. Politically and how things were quite polarized in terms of the reception of the West Indians. For you to want to go to a shop, a black shop, run by an Indian, an Indian Jamaican guy, it's still quite a bold move.
Speaker 2:It was radical. Yeah, it's quite radical. So where did you get?
Speaker 1:that intrepid. I'm not saying that you had any prejudices or whatever, but you just bravery. Maybe it might be youth, but I feel that's quite an intrepid thing to do.
Speaker 2:Well, I think two things. Firstly, I wasn't the only person who worked there. They had people work there full-time. I was there on Saturday. It was really I don't. Yeah, I only met Lee Gough for a couple of times, it wasn't. Yeah, I'm a teenager, I'm not thinking about like that, I'm just like, oh, you want to earn pocket money, you want to buy records, want to be around the music. So I wasn't really thinking about it from that particular perspective at that point. Yes, and then. But then when I tell me to go to Seoul City, well, it's kind of the same thing. I think the only when it became I became more I wasn't, I wasn't aware.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Because there was something. I know that there was. Something happened when I was in grammar school that stayed with me forever. Two things stayed with me forever and one was so awful I'll tell you what it was, just because it gives you some sense of what I'm talking about. At that point there was when this would be in the grammar school system, that is, stupid system of prefix yeah, prefects and fags, which I don't know. That's what they used to call you. If you were a prefix, you had fags. I mean, I'm not. Do you know that?
Speaker 1:As a cigarettes or as in the as in the pejorative term for gay men.
Speaker 2:Well, but it wasn't gay men that it only became that later. So it was. If you look it up, you'll find there was this whole thing in grammar school systems of the prefix and the fag. But it wasn't a fag like a gay got Okay, it was just the person who had to do what you wanted. It was hard. I'm not telling you that.
Speaker 1:Oh, the Joey like a go for it.
Speaker 2:You say fag, go get me my books. So I said I mean, I think back to that shit. It was all.
Speaker 2:I'm not saying man, that was horrible. That was a message of that whole system of like Lord, yeah. So here's what I remember. We had the first. We only had one student who was African and he was I don't know where he was from and I'll never forget his name was George and he had to deal with people staring at him and I'm going to be really honest with this a boy school. So when everyone to the toilet and we were staring at certain parts of his body, it was a horrible man. I mean, we think of it now but like, yeah, really.
Speaker 2:Anyway, the point I'm saying, the point I'm like so we had this one head prefect and he had it in for George. He just did so. He found a reason, something George did and he summed him to the prefix room. We were all in the prefix room. It was brutal. People were did shit that they should not have done. So you could beat, you could hit, you could, you know, you could punish Physical. Yeah, and I'll never forget, he bought George to the prefix room and he said I dropped your trousers and he started. He was going to start to cane him. I said you don't stop this. Right now I'm going straight to headmaster. Yeah, what's wrong with you guys? I said stop it now because the guy was tears.
Speaker 2:Yeah of Humiliation, as if so he stopped and I'm nothing. What's wrong with you? You know me pain. I don't care if you then so you did, to stop, but that incident Stay with me, for for even to now I can see it and just that told me how Deeply in a sense ingrained the whole racial prejudice experience was in England.
Speaker 2:And I mean, I had to deal with it too, with my family and myself as a, as a Jew and I'm not you know the things happen, do you know? My dad got there we had this manager was nasty to him. They can't add up and you try to cheat us. No, that's shit. You know all the mythologies that go with each each because a race. But so. I'm saying that to tell you that that helped me to develop a certain kind of understanding Of how people dealt with things.
Speaker 1:Can I ask a question in terms of granularity? How did they know you were Jewish? How do they know you were different? How could they tell? Because externally that's not always apparent.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm gonna be really straight up with you, okay, oh, lord, I Inviting you to look at my profile. Oh right, okay, can you see my profile? What do you think?
Speaker 1:maybe, Okay, right.
Speaker 2:Okay, and I had curly hair. Yeah, I mean certain things that I was told to a bastard I was it.
Speaker 2:And you know, yeah, and I'm gonna show one thing with you what when I started the new year's summer, after I saw the new year's summer Appreciation site here, so this school, and you know they, my deputy had knew what I knew about what I was doing. And he said to me what I did Do you want you know we were doing? This Appreciation is our fan club, for this is fact, appreciation site. He and Nina Simone was barely known in England at that time. She'd only been here once or twice. And he said I like you, could you, on one of our Day after this end in the library, would you like to bring one of the Anita Simone LP so we can hear what she sounds like? So I bought in an LP and Into the library and all my, all my same classmates were in there and I thought, well, I'll explain to them a little bit about who she is. And she, I explained to them that she who's a little bit about her background and how she had become, very much at that point, an advocate for civil rights. And so I thought, well, what can I play? I thought, what can I play? Them? That will then illustrate this.
Speaker 2:And Nina had recorded a Billie Holiday song with strange fruit. Billie Holiday Co-wrote it, I think, and it's about lynchings. It's a one of the most hot, one of the harshest Songs anyone has ever sung. Yeah, I mean. Lyrics are like really, your black bodies swinging in the southern breeze, I mean it's, I've really. I mean, I know anyone could sing the song.
Speaker 2:It's very, very intense, and Nina did her version of it, so it's her on a piano and it is one of the most emotional Performance of anything ever and that's the song you chose to play.
Speaker 2:in a song I thought what can I play? Yeah, it wasn't somebody, was a guy. We had a day in the afternoon we could, like, do things in the library and share things. I don't remember why we did it, but anyway. So yeah. So I told them ahead of playing it what it was and I told them what the song was about. I pet played it and After it finished it was completely like for moments of silence Because the way, if you heard the recording how it ends, the way news ends, that song it's like. It's like Like hits you in the plate. It really can. It gets to people and so, and then I got Arousing ground for applause.
Speaker 1:And so you should I.
Speaker 2:And yeah, I'll tell you years later.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Thanks to social media. At some point one of my school friends Connected with me on Facebook. He said you know we didn't meet. But he said, you know, I still remember that when you played that Nina Simone song, so I know, at that point I was very, I yeah, I understood. I Well, I didn't understand it like it. You know all that was going on in the world. I had some understanding, I don't know. So, being around Nina, I met me. By that time I'd met Nina.
Speaker 2:Yes so it wasn't like I was playing music by some that didn't know and it was kind of like, yeah, so yeah, it's all to do with how well, how my perspective on life and I it's interesting something you said. I mean Only in recent times has anyone even made any reference to appropriation, and I know what, why people say it and I know what they mean and you know my entire career has been about a dedication to music that I that has helped me get through life and it just so I'm gonna say, just happens. But it's been a music of African-American primarily and it is soul music. So for me it's not about appropriation and all my keen money off of it. It's about in fact, we'll talk about that little, maybe a tiny little bit about the research stuff I do, which is about Giving, making the music available to people again.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So it's always been for me about sharing the music and sharing people's stories, and it's um yes, so that's what it's been about.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm, you know we're gonna play a song from Nina Simone shortly, but I was the just follow up from what you just said there and what I understand. You know playing that song. I'm I'm hats off for you for doing that, because that's quite a brave interpretive thing. It's probably on the back of the experience that you saw with George and stuff, but it's the power of music and the things that people learn from it and I'll talk to you on our journey up here, the power of music and and how people react to it, and that's what made me fall in love with music and DJing and yeah.
Speaker 1:It can be soothing, it can be a good reference point, it can be your, it can be a karma, it could be your therapist. It can also just change your mood and Absolutely absolutely and look at things from a different perspective. Totally get in touch with joy or get in touch with negative emotions or pain.
Speaker 2:They're just, yeah, sadness. I mean, as you're listening, walk on by a little bit. I saw the feel will come reflected. Yes, it's like sad. The song's not a happy song.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I know you're obviously listeners can't see this, but I soon put that. So on we by side gesticulating gesticulating in our ways just beautiful. Can we wait until our zone? And it just tells me that you're a music lover class, because I was watching your energy there as well as enjoying it. So let's play the next record, and we're gonna talk about Nina Simone, and I'm jealous that you've met her.
Speaker 3:I'm a good boy, I put a spell on you Because you're mine. You better stop the things you do. I ain't lying, no, I ain't lying. You know I can't stand it. You're running around. You know better than it. I can't stand it cause you put me down. Yeah, yeah, I put a spell on you Because you're mine, you're mine, you're mine. I love you, I love you. I don't care if you don't want me, I'm yours right now. You hear me. I put a spell on you, you're mine.
Speaker 1:That's, I put a spell on you by Nina Simone. When did that come out roughly?
Speaker 2:1965. You don't mess. I actually think that is the as a performance. That is probably the best performance I've ever heard by anybody. That recording that's probably like two takes she probably do more than two takes that's live in the studio with an orchestra that was not punched in, and if you play all the way through at the end of the song she does this jazz thing. I don't think she could recreate it. It is so like out of this world kind of thing. It's like oh, not how this world would say. It's like Just spontaneous.
Speaker 2:Yeah and it was in the moment Surreal, yeah, but I think, and you know what I love about that record, that recording, she sings that lyric Like no kidding man, do not mess with me, Because I will mess you up you know what I want to talk about it when you met her, because she's amazing, but she scares me, but good, scary not like she scared most people, she did scare me.
Speaker 1:Talk to me. Okay, she did not Break it down for me. How did you meet her? Was it part of this appreciation?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, I thought so I said well, everyone got the fan club, different people. I want to start the appreciation society for Nina. I write to her record company, the English record company.
Speaker 1:Well, you sit at school at this point.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah yeah, absolutely 17,. Yeah, in school, yeah, and I sent the letter to Philip Records, england. They sent it to her manager in America, new York, who happened to be her husband I didn't know that at the time and wrote the letter saying I told them I wanted to form an appreciation society for Miss Nina Simone, and he wrote back. At some point. I got a letter back saying we are thrilled that you would like to do that. Please, you absolutely can do that. We'll send you some photographs and stuff to start promoting it. And told me at the same time and Miss Simone will be coming to England, europe, for her first performances in June this was about March or April of that year and so to my shock, I mean, she's actually going to be in England for the very first time ever in her whole life.
Speaker 1:Because she moved to Europe for a while, didn't she, but that's much later Much later. Alright, so this is before I okay.
Speaker 2:So she. So that's it, and so I go to the airport on a Saturday morning, so still in school. She thank God they arrived on a Saturday, yeah, so they didn't have to take any time off school I go. I still don't remember how I got to the airport. I think someone should take me there, because I don't know you got to Heathrow back there. I also got 10 buses or something. Anyway, no tube back there.
Speaker 1:Are your parents for cool of all this? Just go, go, go.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, I mean my parents used to be strange, so they were always used to be a little out there, Idiot some credit, especially that one.
Speaker 1:You can say that yes.
Speaker 2:So if I'm at the airport with flowers for Nina, I get there. I knew when you know her manager, people would tell me when she was going to arrive. I get to the airport, she comes through with her husband, manager Andy, and their daughter, Lisa, who was five years old at the time. Right, I come. You know they come through. At that time it was not as massive airport like it is now and they're coming through and I'm standing there and I go forward and say hello, I'm David, I'm the person who started your appreciation society here, and Andy shakes my hand, and Andy shakes my hand and I give her the flowers. She says thank you, thank you, thank you. And then so we're waiting for them to get the luggage and she tells me to talk about music and stuff. And then Andy says do you want to come in the limousine with us back in London?
Speaker 2:They've never been there before, I mean the first time they've been to London too. So the rock company had hired a limo and she said they want to come ride in the limo. I'm like what the fuck? I don't even know how to explain what it was like. I'm sitting in the limo with Nina and I didn't know much about her because she's never been here. There's nothing to read much about.
Speaker 2:I do kind of sense of who she was, but I didn't really know. And she sends me oh you see these little houses with the chimneys? Because she couldn't get over the fact that there's a little rose of houses with chimneys. It's so funny, man. So that was the first time I met her and then during that visit I went to the television studio with them. I mean, I didn't spend a lot of time on that first visit. That's amazing. But here's the thing, because people would be very scared of Nina, not because she was a big human physically, but some about her manner of energy that scared people and I think I might give you many reasons why.
Speaker 2:I think she and I didn't have anything like there was never, anything, never, never, any kind of. There's only one time, many, many years later, when we had a moment. That wasn't so wonderful, but it was years and years and years later and she I think she just was so thrilled that someone in England, where she had never even been, had such interest in her music and her career.
Speaker 1:Well, let's jump in there as well, because some of her history and correct me if I'm wrong with this she didn't tell her mum that she was doing non-church music. She had to do some, you know, some sly moves to get where she was. And then, obviously, her appearance she wasn't pretty enough in some places and her features were all.
Speaker 1:So she, that must carry a certain determination, anger and perseverance, and that must come out. You know, and you know I can say, in order to get to where I was, you have to. Whether it's anger or perseverance, you're driven for every reason. Does that just come out in your personality Overtly sometimes? For some of those reasons, as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and I think, and we'll go back to I put a spell on you. Because it was I mean I. You know I could get. I don't know. I can't remember her ever telling anyone why she chose the song, but you could tell from her manner that it fit.
Speaker 1:That song. I put a spell on you. Did she write that, or?
Speaker 2:did something.
Speaker 1:No, oh, right okay.
Speaker 2:It's a song was written by a guy called Screamin' Jay Hawkins.
Speaker 1:Oh gosh.
Speaker 2:And if you heard Screamin' Jay Hawkins version, it's nothing like that.
Speaker 1:It didn't have nobody like her.
Speaker 2:No but I'm sad. So that song it wasn't just the performance. There's something about the way she I think what it was she inhabited that song. That's a good one. So like she lived in the song, like it was really how she was, about that way of being in life. And we don't have to have whole conversation about the power of Voodoo, but we do know there are aspects of forces that we don't necessarily have to talk about, and let's keep it there for a time.
Speaker 1:Let's move to the next track, called Walking Up One Way Street by Willie T.
Speaker 2:Yay.
Speaker 3:I told you that I loved you time and time again. I'm walking, walking, walking up one way street. I'm walking, walking, walking up one way street. I'm walking, walking, walking up one way street. I'm walking, walking, walking up one way street. I'm walking, walking, walking up one way street. I'm walking, walking, walking up one way street. I'm walking, walking, walking up one way street. I'm walking, walking, walking up one way street. I'm walking, walking, walking up one way street. Keep on walking, keep on, keep on talking.
Speaker 1:That's Walking Up One Way Street by Willie T. That song's awfully jolly. Yes, yes.
Speaker 2:And that's a nice tune.
Speaker 1:It's a nice tune, and it's just on the back of what we were just talking about and how that song is just so bright and jolly.
Speaker 2:It can be such an interesting juxtaposition, absolutely, I think it's like case in point there. Yeah, I don't want to tell you why I chose that to listen to it play. When I was talking about Soul City in Debtford that was one of the records that people come in on Saturday night Willie T Walk Up One Way Street. Nina Simone, my Vavious Kiss For Me and Barbara Lynn, a song called Letters to Mummy and Daddy.
Speaker 1:I'm going to have to Google that and check that.
Speaker 2:I'm going to have to Google the three. But that Willie T record and we couldn't get it. I mean it was not available anymore. But the time they came out, the time we had the record shop, it was not a big hit in America, it was a little record. But because it was, as I said, it was one of those records that the people would hear in the West Indies, different islands in the West Indies. They could get the signal from Miami Florida.
Speaker 2:That record actually was from Willie T's from New Orleans, so that's probably how they heard it on the New Orleans Louisiana station. And that record, man and every time that is such a joyful record Is that part of the stacks. No, no, no, no no, no, no, it's a little label. He was around people like Aaron Neville from that sometime period.
Speaker 2:He was like, yeah, yeah, it's a very, it's just something about, it's the flavor, that beat, that hold, and that was one of the records that this particular group of people from the Caribbean they loved it, man, and I loved it. It always brings me back to that time period To my own, you could say introduction socially, beyond work, to being a part of a I would say everyone wasn't West Indian or Caribbean, but certainly it was part of then became expanded from my work into a social environment. It wasn't I don't know how to say, it wasn't like I said. Oh well, I don't say this. So I wasn't at that time I was a kid, I was at 17, 18 years old, so I didn't really hang out anywhere at that point.
Speaker 2:I still lived at home and so then, as I was starting to work at a record shop, that's when I became, I think I'm trying to remember how this really happened.
Speaker 2:Well, specifically with that, going to the minutiae of it is that I do go to little parties here and there with other fan club people from like Dion and Sheryl's fan club, different fan clubs we had, different people had, but the thing was I remember what it was is I began being aware that, beyond them, beyond being customers, you were people you know, and so what would? I'm trying to explain this to you? Well, let's just say that I got introduced to a whole another subculture of a subculture, and that was by virtue of some of the music and in particular because, just to be really clear with you Right, the partner boyfriend of the guy who ran a fan club for Irma Thomas, who was also a New Orleans singer, was Jamaican, and on the New Year's Eve of 1966, me and Dave Golden and Robert the three of us were walking at Rott Solstice. We had New Year's dinner there at their house in Oval, about 10 minutes from where I live now. Albus Square, not the Albus Square.
Speaker 1:I know it's that stockwell.
Speaker 4:I don't know which house number it is.
Speaker 2:So they had dinner there and then, after I said, let's all go to a party, I had been by to a party and they said, oh, I didn't know at the time that everybody that was in that group were gay Bob, bob, the fan club guy, his partner, jack, dave and Robert they're all gay, but I was not considering myself to be gay, I didn't have had. No, I don't want a little fumble with someone, but that wasn't like gay, it was like I was like really not.
Speaker 1:An encounter.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So here I said, I went to this party. It was like a regular New Year's Eve party. They get upset. I don't know what they thought it was going to be, but they all wanted to. They left. They said, well, we don't want to stay here and I'm having a good time. This girl, she's just kissing me. I'm like, oh shit, yeah, that shit. I say oh yeah, so I want to stay. And they all left. So anyway, the bottom line is that somewhere within that time period I got invited to their house by myself and I ain't going to tell you the next part.
Speaker 2:It's too, deep and graphic and you don't go there. But I will tell you within a few weeks. I had to choose because I started going out with that girl a little bit and then I'd also gone to my first gay male party, which was primarily from these guys who didn't at Alba Square, and most of the guys there were West Indian. Yeah, they were West Indian and Caribbean and they were at that point to be a black gay man in England. We're so under underground you couldn't even imagine, because no more you got all the religious thing of those families Like what You're baddie man. It was horrible for them and everybody had to operate in secret. So they had a little house parties and I remember that went to this party, first party I ever went to at that house on Alba Square and I was scared. I was so scared.
Speaker 1:You weren't that scared if you went.
Speaker 2:Well, I would see what was going on. Yes, you were 18, curious, hello, hello, hello. And so this leads to the next record you go play. So I'm going to tell what happened. So I'm there, I'm there, this is a guy sitting on the staircase. The first time I ever saw men dance together and I was a little freaked out by that anyway. So this guy sitting on the staircase and he says I was like hello. Oh, he says hello to us, hello, and I'm just like I'm really basically a kid. I was 18 years old. I went like I'm grown adult person. He says hello. I said hello. He says what's your name? I said David. He says what's your name? He said Franklin. I said Franklin. Oh, I said is that your first name? I said yeah, I said your first name is the last name of one of my favorite American singers. He said who? I said Rita Franklin.
Speaker 2:Now, that point of Rita Franklin has not had no big hits in England at all, completely unknown. I said chat, chat, chat. And then you're back in those days. You said you said so, you want to come home with me Now, back then, now, listen, now. Back then there was an unusual night. She said what are you going to do so? I said I'll phone number. What phone number? I'll give you a phone number.
Speaker 1:No mobile number. At least got to Nando's first, or something.
Speaker 2:Well then I said, all right, all right, off we go. And then, within some period of time, we were boyfriends. Rita had gone out together, proper, yeah. And then two things to tell you, okay. So firstly, I was that guy, that was this girl from the party, marion.
Speaker 1:Hustler.
Speaker 2:No, I was going to marry it and I was also going out with Franklin.
Speaker 1:Player.
Speaker 2:And terrible, terrible. And then on my birthday of February 15, 1967, they went to this party, birthday party at this disco a manor house disco on the top on the corner and I shouldn't invite it. I should not have invited Franklin, because he'd know anybody there and everyone like, who is he? And I'm like always a friend of mine and he kept giving me like these, he kept giving me dagger looks because I was dancing with Marion. I couldn't dance with him in the bloody 1967. Hello, no. And so she, he's giving her dagger looks. And here's what happens I was dancing slow dance with her to Aaron.
Speaker 2:You're a crook Aaron never tell it like it is of dancing with her. And she started crying. I said what's wrong with her? Who is he? Who is he? Why is he looking at you like that? I said no, she knew something was funny and at that point it was a little oh shit. So she went home with Tearies and I went home with it and, as it turned out, she was a look. She wasn't something. Exact truth, because about a month later I went to. I went, she said I want to talk to you, I'm not romantic. And she said well, I didn't tell you. I have a fiance who's coming back from Canada. I said what I'm going through all this stuff about? Oh, I shouldn't do, do, do, do, do. Anyway, whatever.
Speaker 1:That's fortuitous, wasn't it?
Speaker 2:Terrible, so now I've gone out with Franklin and he turns out to be epitomizing the lyric lines of the of Ruther Franklin breakthrough recording.
Speaker 1:I never loved a man.
Speaker 4:I never loved a man. I never loved a man. I never. I never loved a man the way that I. I love you. So time ago I thought you would run out of food, but I was so wrong, you got one that you'll never lose. The way you treat me is so shame. How could you hurt me so bad? Baby, you know that I'm the best thing that you ever had. Kiss me once again. Don't you never, never, say that we're through, Cause I ain't never, never, never, no, no, I loved a man the way that I. I love you. I can't sleep at night and I can't eat a bite, cause I'll never be free. Since you got your hopes in me.
Speaker 1:Oh, oh, oh, yeah, yeah, I ain't never loved a man. I ain't never loved a man, ain't never had a man to hurt me so bad. But this is what I'm gonna do for my life. I've heard that song for ages and talk about inhabiting the track. She owns that track there.
Speaker 2:Uh-huh, she did. She, absolutely 100% did. She didn't write it, although the person who did write it was a songwriter who was part of the stable of songwriters that were um that her husband, manager Ted, was managing. There's someone I just got called Ronnie Shannon. He wrote the lyrics, even though she didn't. She didn't write them, but they were clearly about the relationship she was in with her husband at the time and it also reflected what I was dealing with, my first boyfriend man.
Speaker 2:Mixed up, boy, that's good, that's good. Never loved the the the thirst at first line. You're, you're, you're no good hopper, you're a liar and a cheat. And how I knew that cause? One day I came down on a Sunday afternoon at his place in Fingery Park. He wasn't expecting me to come in and I had knocked on the door and there's some one of his younger guys there Sitting there sitting on the on the sofa with him. So I was just. This is a friend of mine.
Speaker 1:You know what I love about these stories cause um, true, yeah, but it part of them being true stories. My um references about gay culture are not non-existent either in America, or they're the story of white males in this country yeah, but they're all valid, but I've never had it from um. Stories that are are from your journey coming from a soul part with with West Injans, and it's interesting to hear about the gay life that existed from black men in this country.
Speaker 1:Oh man, it was yeah, it actually is quite inspiring. It makes me feel like there was a history of people like me before me, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:And to hear that, conversely, via yourself, it just gives me my own history that has never been documented, and this is why these stories are important to know that there are people who look like me or inter-musical like me and heritage like you say it actually gives me a bit more history. That has been avoided. It actually adds to my complete in terms of my identity. So thank you for that. You're welcome.
Speaker 2:I want to say a couple of things about it as a PS. So, firstly, I realised that Franklin was really that it said in the song, and then see, I did this thing, which was naughty because, when I found somebody was doing that to me, I started doing the same thing with someone else. So I went to some party with him again at the same place and he was being acting all foolish. So I saw this other guy, peruvian doctor Tony. He was about nine feet tall. He was six feet tall nine feet tall.
Speaker 2:And I saw dancing with him. And Franklin, are you coming home? No, I said I'm not.
Speaker 1:I'm not coming home, it's cute, not coming home with your face, you know.
Speaker 2:No well, you know what. You're gonna mess with me, I'll mess with you too. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:Hello, hello, hello, hello, hello.
Speaker 2:And so that was off for Tony about that for a minute or two or ten or whatever, or, everything. And then so a few weeks later, about months later, I said well, this is not working.
Speaker 2:So I thought, how am I? I've never broken up with anyone, so how do you break up with someone? I said we best thing to find a record. They can say which one to say. So I went to Franklin's flat in Finby Park. I said I got something to say. He said well. I said well, I think I'm gonna let the record say what I want to say to you. Oh no, yes.
Speaker 1:You dropped a tune on him.
Speaker 2:All righty, then. That's the end of Franklin by Cia Wanna Be Ya, and now we move quickly on to what happens after that, which probably will totally end up with another record. But we can stop for a second.
Speaker 1:Yeah, one second.
Speaker 4:Never gonna, get it, never gonna get it never gonna get it never gonna
Speaker 2:get it.
Speaker 4:Never gonna get it. Never gonna get it, no not this time.
Speaker 2:So after after Franklin's was duly dumped, so you keep me hanging on. Oh no, that was the answer. Well, maybe I should just not do it right now. Go anywhere. And one day I went home. I was, I was at a fishing ship shop we stayed at, we were in in Fulham. Now we moved to Fulham.
Speaker 1:Right, I'll see you sit, we'll sit at home. When you're carrying on the removal, you're excited and shenanigans, you're still living at home, right, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And your parents. Well, you're old enough, but your parents, they might just stay out late and didn't ask you your business, what you're up to?
Speaker 2:Well, I was well, I don't think they were thrilled, but you know what I'm gonna say. Were you out at this point though.
Speaker 1:Or a job.
Speaker 2:Well, I was. I was as a. I was as a function of something that was not pleasant to happen. I was working in the studio at Soul City, the record shop, and this is exactly what happened, and I've never shied away from telling people this because and it's 100% true so I Franklin, a foresaid Frank, a previously mentioned Franklin would come to Soul City sometimes on Saturday to meet me for work. Yeah, yeah, because people did that. Your boyfriend. Now he was also a bit naughty because he's winking and blinking at the other guy who worked there, robert, which I was not happy about. They're just winking and blinking. Yeah, sometimes you wink and blink with someone, but you don't do anything. Yeah, and I was not as aware as I am now that Dave Golden and Robert were an item. I don't know why I didn't know that, but I didn't anyway, naive taking, sometimes slipping there.
Speaker 2:And Franklin came this one Friday, saturday night, to meet me at the shop. And Dave Golden, who was about 10 years older than me, and Robert, he said I don't want him to be here. I was wondering I don't want him here. He said he got to leave. I said no, he's not going to leave because he's waiting for me. And I know now why. Yeah, because he was being chatty with Robert. Yeah yeah, jealous is a thing, man, it really is, anyway. So I said well, no, he said David, I want him to leave. I said, well, you know what, if he leaves, I leave. And that's what we did. I walked out the door with Franklin, before the shop closed, sat in, Monday came, I didn't go back, and Tuesday I called.
Speaker 2:He called and was home with my mom and I told her I'm not going home, I'm not going to work. I said not going to work. So, all right, I've had a disagreement until what it was about. She said okay. So Dave calls. He says is David there? She says he doesn't want to speak to you. So she, then Dave, says well, is he coming back to work? And I told her no, I'm not.
Speaker 2:So then he says to my mother will you tell him that I've got some things I can tell you as his mother about him? And I knew what he was going to do. So I said give me the phone. And she said, all right, I said listen, I'll just. I said I'll call you back. I slammed the phone down and it was. The phone was in the bedroom, my parents bedroom. So I sat my mother down. She said what is he mean? So I told her. I said well, you know Franklin. She had met Franklin. He's been to our flat, but not, you know, I didn't stay over anything, but I'm introducing him to her as a friend of mine.
Speaker 2:I said he's not just a friend, he's my boyfriend. And of course, like a mother would do in 1967, she just cried. She said why not? And she said that asked me silly question Do you kiss a civil or corny kiss? And these are getting to more graphics I said I'm not answering no questions. So my mother was a little bit more worldly than she acted like she was, but she was. I mean, I'm her son, I'm her first son, I'm a, you know, I have a sister, she.
Speaker 2:It was hard for her to listen to all that. And then I called David Dave golden, back. I said well, you're going on to tell her now. And I didn't go back to that workshop for months and we had to work it out. So I came out to my parents, but not because I had chosen it, in a sense, and with my dad. My dad said well, she said I have to tell your father. So, all right, we'll tell him and we're going to do it. I'm like a lie. And she told him and he said well, he said well, you know, don't worry about it, your sister phase. But see, but he couldn't say nothing. You know why? Because his sister, phoebe, was in a open well, she was living with her female partner. But what was he going to say to me, you know, because he was aware that. So, years later, my mom says, oh, your father's fault you're the only.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right whatever.
Speaker 1:I might be starting to repeat myself, but it's really important for me, and I think other people that might be affected by this, to know that you know there was a black gay scene that evolved when you were doing all this. Was this pre when it's illegal to be a gay man, or was this post Okay?
Speaker 2:well, in 1967, it was no longer illegal, right, that's true. However, I was a minor.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So, while it wasn't, how old were you? Oh sorry At that time? Well, I was Actually, I was 18. Yeah, yeah yeah, so the time period from 18 to 21 was illegal, so that would be like 66, all the way through to 1969. Yeah, because I was a minor, I could not have been prosecuted.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:But anyone who I engaged in intimate relationships could have been yeah.
Speaker 1:But you know what, on the flip side of this, amongst all of that, it was good to see that you still were a teenager, a mischievous. You did teenage things in amongst all the things that you weren't allowed to do. Society-wise as well, you still live, yeah. So it's good to know that it wasn't always bad for some people. I know it still was bad for a lot, but you still managed to be a mischievous teenager within your formative years like any other teenager who?
Speaker 2:wasn't gay. Yeah, and the truth is, I also want to say that that time period where we To get some context for it, yeah, there weren't, there were club. There were beginning to be clubs in the time period from about 69 to oh, I mean, there was still, probably, were In fact. No, let me go backwards. So there was a disco, a little disco. First of all, I went to a club, so to speak. It was called the Juice. It was in Soho, on Dobbley Street. Dobbley Street, I don't know what it is.
Speaker 1:That's right, that market records. Yeah, you go downstairs.
Speaker 2:And it was a jukebox. There was jukebox. There was no DJ Jukebox, jukebox. And there's jukebox. There was a oh my God, yeah, and a coached guy and they were not allowed to. They didn't say alcohol, they were not allowed to. And they, they had the jukebox but it was so funny.
Speaker 1:So what people would go over and choose songs, of course put the money in, yeah, of course.
Speaker 2:And then in that jukebox was usually lots of soul, r&b stuff, yeah, and some reggae. It wasn't reggae, there was Scar, some Scar stuff in there too. So, yeah, you put your money in, but almost I could tell you almost without fail, the last tune of the night was Jimmy Ruffin, what Becomes of the Broken Hearted, and you know. Then you could slow dance with someone. You could, you could, and so people did, you know, and it was kind of like I don't want to say it was just, it was kind of. I mean, you talk about 1967. So this is the time of Carnaby Street and all that Hope be a revolution in, yeah, yeah, clo, everything that's going on in London, yeah, the counterculture of that time. So it wasn't everybody there, it was men and women, but it wasn't really like. It wasn't like defined sexually the same way, and it was a place where a lot of gay men would meet.
Speaker 1:So before you, tell me your story about? Associated with the song we just played we heard, can you just give us an idea of what it was like to live in the 60s in England, but also in light of the things that was going on in America of Martin Luther King, the Civil Rights stuff and how? What was your reaction to it? But also the black population over here at the time to that? How did that feel?
Speaker 2:Well, a couple of things. First of all, I remember very distinctly when John F Kennedy was killed and how that affected my mom she was very clear about. She just was like, wow, I don't remember what she she felt. I remember she cried, she, I think she said to us, because that would be 1963. Yeah, and I would have been how old was I? 50? Yeah, and I don't know, somehow she conveyed to us that she felt like he was someone who was going to give hope to the future for the world, because he was a young president and I remember she cried and that was that.
Speaker 2:So there was, we were aware and I think probably my family had a different relationship to To race and to prejudice and all the things that people that maybe a lot of the general population did not have. I mean, because for me it was a little different because of Nina, because Nina made sure that I was very, very aware of who she was in the world of music, but also in terms of her activism around civil rights. Yeah, so my relationship was probably a little different from other people's. Yeah, I mean she, you know, I had conversations with her and not a lot of conversations about that, but as I got to know who she was and I got to see how she was very she was very clear about what she wants to say.
Speaker 2:And there is one moment I remember and this makes reference to what we're talking about as she became more popular, yeah, and she played at London Palladium and, as her still appreciation society founder, I was there and it was a bit of a controversy because she, yeah, london Palladium was mostly of, yeah, an audience that could have fought to go to London Palladium and they were mostly Caucasian. And here's what happens no, nina is doing her show out there and she's now a good player song and she says Now how many black people in the audience and three people put up their hands Because that's all what I think she could see, yeah, or that we're there. She said, and this song is for you. She went there.
Speaker 2:And she played Young Gifted in Black, which she co-wrote, and it was a song inspired by a play by one of her good friends, edelweight Hansberry, and it was like, and I'll tell you what happened, so her manager, her husband, and he was like, oh shit, because I mean she was very clever, she was singing it for you. You got a whole audience and I don't have any people, london Palladium, but it was sold out and she's saying that.
Speaker 2:And he was not happy Because she grew a song and said this is specifically for, but she says this is for you, I mean everybody else in the audience. I don't care if you like it or not, but that was who Nina was. She looked like, you know, hey, and she was. She had to deal also you made a reference earlier with her how people were related to her. She was not in the realm of a performer who yeah, she wasn't Lena Horne.
Speaker 2:She wasn't Diana Ross. She had, she was had dark features, african features, and she was Afrocentric before more than really. She was basically Afrocentric before most of her peers she was Afro everything. And now you know, I have to say that I, because I was so enamoured of Nina and what she was about, I started doing the same thing and there are photographs of me from very clear from about 1968. I think. I just let my hair grow and because of the, because of the nature of my genealogy, I had a oh, no, it was better than Leo man it was a prop.
Speaker 2:I could show you a photograph right now of my hair. They'd be like people say no, it's not a prop, that's my hair. And, the thing is funny, my sister's hair was the same way, so we can say that likely it was from the genealogy of my dad, who originally the rest of the genealogy was in Portugal.
Speaker 2:I don't know how else it happened because nobody else had hair like that and they were like big, massive curly hair. So then I think I had a little bit of an identity crisis, all right, all right, I'm being honest with you.
Speaker 3:That's honest. That's honest it was.
Speaker 2:And I love wearing the. I feel more comfortable in the tishiki than I did in my regular clothes. Yeah well, don't you?
Speaker 1:interrupt me. I respect you for saying that, whether it's identity crisis and you didn't try and hide it or whatever, but that actually makes you more authentic, in a way, because you're telling me your whole journey, yeah, and what you did there, whether it was good, bad or indifferent. I was actually quite open on it, sorry, especially for that yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:As the time period went on, I would say as we got to the early to mid-70s. That is when you would find what would happen is because of what was. It was kind of like a reflective of what was happening in America in gay culture. And the two things I want to say. Firstly, it was unusual in America to have interracial relationships, not just men, it's just inter. Even now it's not common. Yeah, in Britain, even though we had all the silly madness of the colonial shit and all that, there was still a kind of funny tolerance for that. I don't know how come, but there was a when you say tolerance in comparison to America.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. A lot of people weren't so like this.
Speaker 2:I didn't notice people staring in the street, particularly here. Maybe they did and I didn't see it, but certainly when I was going out with guys here at that time they were primarily West Indian. Yeah, pretty much A lot of that was really, I tell people was to do with what my work, my life was about music and it was about the music of a particular culture. But they were.
Speaker 1:You don't have to justify that, no, I know, but I'm thanks.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but for some people they're like, what's that about?
Speaker 1:It's not about anything.
Speaker 2:That's who I'm around. You would be. You'd go find some other people around.
Speaker 1:Good for you, good for you, man.
Speaker 2:And and and the two things that said about it. So it was, I don't recall, or maybe I was oblivious to it. I never actually had experience of going out with any guys here where people would stare at us in the street. So there was a certain tolerance in London. In London, I may have been different in other places.
Speaker 1:Is this within a gay capacity? Because I know that's.
Speaker 2:No, I just mean to walk you down the street.
Speaker 1:But I know, like some of my friends that I have who are mixed race or whatever, sometimes their parents had difficulty in London straight in a heterosexual capacity.
Speaker 2:Absolutely no, they're totally, totally. But then it was says that, you know, by the mid 70s I think, there was a lot more of situations where it will say generally black, gay culture here, Well, it was much more common for black guys to date other black guys, which was not true prior to that.
Speaker 1:Right, okay.
Speaker 2:I mean it was. I mean there's nobody, but there wasn't as obvious and as that started happening in America, which I did see that happen. You could see. What I was saying earlier is that the certain clubs started to become. You could go to clubs. It wasn't, as all, just house parties. The good thing about house parties is you could really meet someone, and I don't know what the term you used for about dancing close, what was the term you used, crubbing.
Speaker 1:So so so we call it slow dance.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so Jamaica's called it yeah yeah, so Jamaica's called it crubbing.
Speaker 1:Now I love Jamaica, I love Patel, because it's very descriptive. So crubbing is an abbreviation for scrubbing. So dancing closely, but abrasively. So you tuck in, don't you? You dig in, so you put the S off and call it crubbing. You are crub, so it's called crubbing, and I know my old school people know that word. It's as a cascading into contemporary language. Going forward, my back is like it's called crubbing. During a crub you can ask a woman for a crub, a girl for a crub, and when you go in deep, so if you look at small acts when I think it's a series, when they're playing silly games and Janet K and stuff, you'll see a session where it gets the lights go down and you are crubbing. That's what that is.
Speaker 2:Well, I can't tell you, we had our gay version of that. They didn't call it crubbing, they just grinded it, and it was not a movie.
Speaker 1:David Nathan. Come on now. Shocking behavior.
Speaker 2:You know, everybody was doing it in a party and you would have found someone who would dance with you. You would have found someone who would dance with you. You would have found someone who would dance with you. There was a group of people, there was a whole crew of people. We were all being at the same parties together and friends. I mean I have my friend Ally, who worked at BBC. Ally was from Zanzibar.
Speaker 2:He introduced the whole gay Zanzibar community which is a whole different thing, because they're a mixture of African and Arab and there's a whole world of that and there's just all these different subgroups right.
Speaker 1:Well, Brunos went to do quite nicely. On the next tune it was called Arms in Extremely Dangerous, by first choice. So let's drop that track and talk about what led to that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a brilliant part of the story too. He walked into my life, he caught me with my guard down, guard down. I walked into the world at first sight. Then he started to play around, play around. So, girls, let me warn you, miss, don't let him go. He's sweet talk for you. Look, I've been all afraid that he'd feel and I've got hope. Don't let it happen to you. On an extreme dangerous, on an extreme dangerous, on an extreme dangerous, on an extreme dangerous, on an extreme dangerous. The day I came into his talks, who would think that he would succeed?
Speaker 1:Would succeed, and those on his way, leaving me here with another mile, to be your girls. If you see him, you might think that you need a room. He might look like the end of time, but he's more than body and he has the air. On an extreme dangerous. On an extreme dangerous. On an extreme dangerous. On an extreme dangerous. On an extreme dangerous. On an extreme dangerous. Oh, I feel good. Be good, I promise. On an extreme dangerous. We don't care for nobody but his little soul. On an extreme dangerous. On an extreme dangerous. On an extreme dangerous. On an extreme dangerous. He might be walking the streets by now. On an extreme dangerous. On an extreme dangerous, that's, on An Extremely Dangerous by First Choice. I love First Choice. I love that drama, I love the drama and they did a song called the Player as well.
Speaker 1:But, also same LP. It also reminds me of a song called Once a Dead or Alive by voices of Harlem.
Speaker 4:All that sort of excitement and stuff like that. So tell me, tell me.
Speaker 1:That's a really good song too, on the back of your interview. Yes, that's because I love it.
Speaker 2:Here's what it was. So after that, all that trying to find a true love or something, I would go to parties and hang out, go club and stuff. But why that song in particular is a very important part of my history Was that I said we had a group of people like a crew.
Speaker 4:We were like the crew, like that.
Speaker 2:But within that crew, as I mentioned to you, there was a guy called Patrick Liverpool, and Patrick Liverpool had this house on Moorville Road in Brixton and he was like the grand poo bar, of the you could say he's the grand grand, he was the grandfather, the godfather.
Speaker 2:We were like grandmothers sometimes of that whole crew and most of the guys of what we call the West Indian or the Blackgate community, and what would happen is Saturday nights, when there was a party somewhere, meeting was nowhere was. So everyone convenes at Patrick's house, so we all there and try to forgot where we're going to go. Some wait to hear a phone call from where we're all going to go as a group to the party. Right Now, I'd be honest with you. I was one of maybe two honorary people of with a whiteish shade of pale, that's alright, was all good.
Speaker 2:And amongst all that group was some people who loved doing drag. They went to the Miss Gay West Indies or what I mean. They had the little things that happened. I mean, really, I'm serious. It was the beginning of a culture that was growing up within a culture, and here's what I can tell you. So we all, if we couldn't find a party there was no party Patrick will have a party here. So it all started. You know, invite people over, he's in his house and then that night we will sleep on the floor and then the next morning get up and I because I didn't cook, I would be the one of the people who would do the dishes for this big part of rice and peas Sunday morning, nice, and it was just a real different way of living.
Speaker 2:So now there's a group of us it wasn't just us, but there was a growing number of people who felt comfortable going out and about. There was a club in Kensington called it was called incorrectly the Sombrero, because it was actually a real club. It's called Yours or Mine and it was downstairs above the Spanish restaurant on High Street, Kensington. It was a big Sombrero hat outside of what we call it Sombrero and then people are going down a regular basis like a club. This was till about like 1969, 72. It was one of the most popular gay clubs. It wasn't just, it was all kinds of people. A lot of Arab princes went there because they couldn't be out there, Because, unfortunately, I never hooked up with any of the Arab princes.
Speaker 1:You had enough in your plate. You take it easy, oh man, I could have been.
Speaker 2:I could have been. I could have been a it's not a buffet, you know. No, I know, but I could have been do anywhere, anywhere. Okay, yeah, go on. Anyway, I digress Anyway, so that was that. So here's the thing. As time went on, we became more aware of some kind of dance music. It wasn't yet called disco, but it was people with sons that there were discos, but it was called a music disco, and Armed and Extremely Dangerous was the first song that I can remember. There were two songs that got played at a place called the Union Tavern, which was on Kennington we're Kennington Lane and Kennington Road Meet.
Speaker 2:Will it merge? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Near where the cock is now yeah yeah, Well, whatever was that. That's what the place is called, sorry.
Speaker 2:Now it is, I've seen it, you write wherever Anyway. So then we go. It was Wednesday and I was gay night and it wasn't just, you know, everybody, black, white, gay, everybody people go to dance right. And what I remember vividly, pierre, is that there were two records that they played there that were new America. They were hits first of all. They suddenly become hits in America. Yeah, that one Armed, extremely Dangerous, and Gloria Gaynor, honey Bee, that's like a real anthem. You know there was and then so it was really for me it's like the beginning of the world of disco.
Speaker 2:And within a certain period of time of that, I went to live in America. That would be like 74 in 74. And when I got to I think I'm trying to remember, yeah, I had a flatmate called Gary here who was from Guyana. Gary went to America in June 74 to visit and he ended up staying there and he invited me. He said when you come over for a holiday, nice. So I went in October 74, he was the most amazing.
Speaker 2:First week I hated being in New York, haters dirty. The second week because I was then writing for Blues and Soul in London. I do three interviews Ashford and Simpson group, labelle and Millie Jackson. Three interviews for Blues and Soul. Yes, man. And then I went to see Aretha Franklin and the group Blue Magic of Radio City Musical and I was like, oh man, this is an amazing, this is amazing. So I said we are going back to living. I came back, so I'm going back to living America. So what you're going to do, I don't know. I'm going to write and I begged.
Speaker 2:John Abbey from Blues and Soul, founder of Blues, says can I please? He said, well, you're more used to me here. But I said I know. But he said have you bought your ticket? I said yeah, but two weeks before I left, three weeks before that he says look, I tell you what. You bought your ticket and you are going to leave. I say I'm going to leave. He said well, I tell you what. When you go there, let's try three months trial basis. And let's try three months trial basis where you can, you do enough work to justify me paying you and we'll go from there. And, man, I tell you I got there on February 8, 1975.
Speaker 2:I stayed at Gary's place until I got myself sorted out and then I worked like a crazy person to interviews everybody. And I don't know that I interviewed first choice, but I do remember interviewing Gloria Gaynor, I do. I remember very vividly, and also at that time, that album, the first choice of the player, man, smarty pencil, that's all. And so that album yeah, the album was. It carried on from 74 through to my time being in New York, and then I was in New York for, like, I was there for six months. I went to LA for six months and I came back to New York for eight, nine, eight, nine years and that was a high of disco. So, but I always go back to that song Because I'm my first time thinking this is proper disco. I love that.
Speaker 2:I love the lyric man. I mean, the song is brilliant, and that's when he starts to hear how the string. Everyone would do these records with a string Amazing man, amazing. So that's why I chose that and that was the beginning of my American odyssey.
Speaker 1:Listen, we're going to have to do a part two because I'm loving these stories, I'm finding them fascinating and it's interwoven with your career. It's amazing. So if you don't mind, well, it's not really up for discussion. You're coming back. We're going to do remote sessions.
Speaker 1:We need to do a part two to learn more about your professional career but how everything's interwoven. But I was going to say thank you for being so open, candid, sharing our stories. It's part of your history, it's part of my history. I'm learning more about that and just showing another side of gay history that's aligned with the career, but also giving an idea of what my gay peers that preceded me.
Speaker 1:That was what it was like, because I never get to hear these stories in the context where doing that. So thank you very much for sharing that, being open, and thank you for joining 4545,.
Speaker 2:David, and do you have time to do that? One, one fantasy.
Speaker 1:See, this is what happens on my show with people. I'm trying to close the show and then you tell me to another time.
Speaker 2:We have to talk about this. We have to talk about this too Now, and I'll tell you there's a reason it's very important.
Speaker 2:Okay. So here I am in blue, I'm in New York and there's 75. And I'm doing and by then I'm John Abbey says all right, you're going to keep doing stuff, all right. And CBS Records, all the record companies. When I came to work that live in New York, they were thrilled. Oh my God, this guy on the spot, he loves R&B, so music fantastic. And they wanted me to interview everybody, which is great, so lucky.
Speaker 2:I mean it was like someone right here on the spot, you know, doing this stuff, which was a big thing for them because I meant that British audiences, through blues and so, would find out about these artists, right? So a lot of people are interviewing for the very first time for blues, and so Now here we go. They say, well, we've got a priority that Earthling and Fire has not been to Europe yet and they're having a, they're breaking through into mainstream in America, which that's the way of the world. We need a cover story for blues. And so blues, I've had no problem and they sent me to Los Angeles to do the interview. And I'm there, I did a couple of inches, bill Withers and Ramsey Lewis, who other interviews and then here I am, you know, trying to do this interview with Earthling and Fire, and every time we try to set it up it doesn't happen because of their schedule. So finally, the day before I have to go back to New York, I'm at the rehearsal studio on on Sunset Boulevard.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And more Reese's there for the whole original Earthling and Fire and I'm waiting for a break to be able to do the interview and more. And I'm the only one sitting there in the rehearsal series. I'm watching this amazing band rehearse. It's like a private rehearsal. I'm like, oh my God. So then there's some point more. The tour manager guy goes to more Reese and says you know about me being a we can't, can't stop that, I can't stop. Now we're in the middle of the verse, so they says all right.
Speaker 2:So what we're going to do so mad calls to the record company in New York. So I'll tell you what you have to get on a flight with Earthling and Fire. The next thing they're doing is in Seattle. You get on a flight with them commercial flight. There was no Earthling and Fire played, it was just them with everybody. And they were because reasons important because they were going to be coming to England to open for Santana, special guest, special guest for Santana. And so I went on a plane and they made sure I sat next to Maurice. I sit down to Maurice's interview with him. I can still see him.
Speaker 2:So back then I did not tape anything, was all notes, handwritten notes, and I put a little proud envelope, you know. And I started talking about the songs and why he was inspirational for him to do some. What was the thinking behind songs like devotion, keep your head to the sky? I want to know why was he doing songs that had these kind of messages? And he told me a little about his interest in spirituality and about how important it was for him to send, use the music to send a message to people, to open people's eyes, open their consciousness, and somewhere in that conversation we talked about reincarnation, yeah, and he said you're interested in that. I said yes, I am. Tell me you read two books, wrote the name of the books on the envelope. I went back to New York where them.
Speaker 2:Now I'm going to fast forward to tell you that that was the first time I did the interview with Maurice and over the years, apart from developing, it changed my life, because now I start thinking about my soul, as in my soul I was in the world of soul. I was about who am I, what am I here for? And that one conversation really shifted my whole thinking. And over the subsequent years I did several interviews with us when a fire and when that album came out. All in all, and that one, I mean there's so much of those early albums I mean I mean that's the way of the world, your gratitude all the way, but that, that spirit, the album spirit, and that all in all with the Egyptian motifs on the front pyramid and the one song, even recently when I was walking along the ocean in America, in South America.
Speaker 2:I put it all just because I just need to hear it. And there's some lines in that song that are pretty man, you will find other kind that has been in search of you. Many lives have brought you to recognize for this I realized that man right there. That is what I've discovered is what's most important connecting with people from whatever level, from however you've known them on one lifetime you knew them or whatever energetically, and that song is absolutely a piece of brilliance. And that end of that song when Philip Bailey, I was advised nobody to try to sing along with that part.
Speaker 1:You know, in the bathroom I did try. Can you do it now, but I'll tell you man.
Speaker 2:the thing to say last thing says the earth went on fire. For me, those recordings that Maurice and the whole group did are so much a part of my life and life and so many of you have literally changed lives, and the last thing to say about that is life is interesting because in 1986, or 85 into 86, he hired me to be his publicist For the one album he did by himself, the one album that I had solo album. And the fact that I created that kind of connection with him, I mean I still go like man, what an amazing life. I mean I could definitely imagine that. And so there you go.
Speaker 1:I'm big gobsmacked by that story and the song we're talking about is Fantasy by Earth, wind and Fire. This is one of my favorite tracks, if not one of the best what?
Speaker 2:why you tell me yeah, I mean.
Speaker 1:I've always heard that song and at the time, musically, I remember that song. It was amazing, but I parked it. I don't know why at the time I just parked it. It was just there maturing my head and then, with respect to Johnny F, back in 1992, he just came back. I'll sit with Johnny F. He's had a record label, a hip-hop record label, and we sat there.
Speaker 1:The first time I met him, my friend said you've got to meet him, you've got to meet Johnny F, you've got to meet him because you're just like him. I was like what do you mean? So we're talking about funk and music and break beats? And he sat down and then he played some songs. And he played the song before he went. He said tell me why you like this song. I go, how do you know I'm going to like it? Before you play it, just tell me why you like this song.
Speaker 1:He put it on and he came from a hip-hop background, like me. But the early days of hip-hop works about peace, unity, love and having fun. And he, I think, a white guy. He suffered not suffered, but in a different way racially injustices, because he just wanted to like me, just wanted to mix with people and just take before they are, and about love and spirit and stuff. For me that song is very futuristic, about what the world can be, or an idea of what the world should be or will be, and it just described sonically for me what that felt like in my imagination.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean Abs, 100%, lutely.
Speaker 1:And he just touched me, we played it and we both sang along to it and I was like it was just a mad musical journey and that's the first time I've actually locked in with somebody musically and understood and once that happened I just found more like-minded people on spirit. I learned about spirit and energies and musical affinity and that's what that song did for me.
Speaker 2:And that's exactly exactly what I would say about everything that's happened in my career, in my life. It's really, it's essentially about spirit. It's about bringing people together, about being a part of a much bigger plan or existence, and I think it's not coincidental that I've been working my entire life and career in the world of soul music and so much of what more recent. Everything that we're talking about right now is about the soul. It wasn't called soul music because someone thought, oh, that's a nice name. So there's something about the soul and soul music that, for me, is very integrated in together. So, yes, I mean I could give you other Earthman and Fire songs, but would you mind playing this little?
Speaker 1:piece of it. Yeah, oh guys, listen. Before we go I want to say it's not by chance that we reconnected. I'm so glad I met you and reconnected. I'll remake you again. Thanks for going with 4545. And I think it'd be really apt for us to close by playing this song. And thanks again, and we're going to do part two.
Speaker 3:I'm true, right away. So, as you fly in your stride with the wind, as you fly away, give a smile from your lips and say I am free. Yes, I'm free, yes, I'm free, oh.
Speaker 1:Once again. You've been listening to 4545, the soundtrack to Inspired Lives. My name is Mr Pierre. I hope everybody out there has a happy Christmas, Peace and one love.