The Great Michelle Nicolini: Her Journey to the Top of Jiu-Jitsu and MMA

Michelle Nicolini is widely considered to be the greatest Female BJJ Athlete of all time! In this episode JT talks openly with the legend as she shares her triumphs and challenges that built her remarkable journey. From her early days training in Santos and Itu under the Checkmat team to her impressive switch to MMA, Michelle's story is a testament to passion, resilience, and dedication. With insights into her development of the shin on shin, spider guard and her experiences competing internationally, you'll learn how she has navigated the male-dominated world of BJJ with grace and strength.

Michelle opens up about the hurdles she faced as a lightweight woman in a predominantly male sport and how her persistence and innovative techniques paved the way for her success. Hear about the mentors who influenced her, the cultural passion for Jiu-Jitsu in Brazil, and the financial struggles that almost derailed her career. Her path to black belt is filled with memorable competitions and significant shifts in strategy, showcasing not just her skill but her adaptability and mental fortitude. This episode also highlights the evolution of women's participation in the sport and the growing support systems that have emerged over time.

From competing across the globe to her move to Singapore to join Evolve MMA, Michelle's journey is nothing short of inspiring. Reflecting on her notable achievements, including her first black belt world championship and her transition into MMA, she provides a candid look at the grit required to shift from one martial arts discipline to another.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:07

A good martial artist does not become tense but ready. Essentially, at this point the fight is over.

Speaker 2: 0:17

So you pretty much flow with the goal.

Speaker 3: 0:22

Who is worthy to be trusted with the secret to limitless power. I'm ready.

Speaker 1: 0:29

Do you need the best inside information on Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu? I have the answer for you. It is Tap, nap and Snap, the Jiu-Jitsu newsletter. We have partnered with them to help you guys connect to the latest happenings, drama, gossips and going-on in the BJJ world. We even have our own little section dedicated to helping you move better for BJJ. So if you're interested to find out more, click the link below and get connected with Tap, nap and Snap, the BJJ newsletter. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another Bulletproof for BJJ podcast. I'm JT and I'm here with the pound for pound greatest of all time female champion, michelle Nicolini. Welcome, michelle.

Speaker 1: 1:19

Thank you so much it's so awesome to have you here. We've just been blessed. Michelle came in and she actually helped teach for us and also I did a seminar with her the other day. It was amazing. So for some of our listeners, they may have heard of you but they don't necessarily know all about you. So I'm going to quickly just rattle off a couple of details, but if I miss anything you can let me know. Know for a lot of you out there if you haven't heard of michelle nicolini, what are you doing? Get your head out of the sand. This woman is an eight-time world champion, adcc champion. She was also world pro champion, but what a lot of people don't know is that she actually started in capoeira oh, secret facts all the best people did. And also she is an mma fighter fighting on one championship. So this is this is crazy, because I don't know if anybody and you you may know this has done what you have done before in terms of jiu-jitsu or even MMA. It's a lot no.

Speaker 1: 2:25

Yeah yeah. And I can't remember. Tell me which year you won the absolute as well.

Speaker 2: 2:31

Yes, in 2007.

Speaker 1: 2:33

Right, so you're Pluma right Light feather no. Light feather, that's what?

Speaker 2: 2:39

55 kilos 53 and a half, oh not even so skinny.

Speaker 1: 2:47

The thing that I've always been amazed by not just by your game, but anybody in jiu-jitsu who is like more lightweight to stay in the game, because the majority of people who do jiu-jitsu are bigger and heavier. They're usually over 75 kilos. You trained with a lot of people, but famously you were under Checkmatch. Is that right?

Speaker 2: 3:10

Yes, it is right. I was under Robert Dreiser since I started training and then since 2009,. I moved back to Checkmatch and I'm with them since then.

Speaker 1: 3:28

Since then and Shekmat is such a historical team, right, they've got so many champions and such a great amount of jiu-jitsu legends in this team, and you being one of them. Now, for those of you out there, the reason why I got to talk this hype is because Shelly, much to her credit, she's very humble and she doesn't like to talk. She doesn't like to talk about her achievements. What I wanted to do is go back. I wanted to start at the start, because I didn't know the story and I wanted to ask you what got you started in Jiu-Jitsu? Because, you know, I was doing a little bit of research and it said you started in capoeira and then you switched. So what got you interested in BJJ?

Speaker 2: 4:17

You know, I think I was like a troublemaker when I was younger, at home or in school. I like to give my parents hard time. I like to fight a lot with my sisters or in school, you know. And then I was doing sports. If I was not doing good in school, my mom take out, take me out of sports. And one time she said I her, I want to fight.

Speaker 2: 4:44

Back in the days like 20-something years ago jiu-jitsu was not popular, you know. And then I started to search and I found out capoeira. So I started capoeira and I think it was very nice because we learn I think this is a principle that we learn in any martial arts when you fight, we don't, uh, do street fight anymore, you know. So I start to have to have the idea of a die splint. Since then I trained capoeira for like two, three, four years.

Speaker 2: 5:16

But as a teenager I want to test myself. You know the ego I. I think I was doing very good for my age, you know, I was young and flexible, I was not afraid of flips or anything. And then capoeira didn't have competition and then I said, ah, maybe I do something else. What was popular was judo. So at the same time I started to be friends with Dreisel, robert Dreisel and then he told me ah, you should do jiu-jitsu instead of judo, you know, it's more like a dynamic and you still can work on takedowns, yeah. Okay, I don't know what it is, but I invite a friend to go with me, a girl and then we went together and since then I start training, but mostly because I want to compete, yeah. And then I moved to jiu-jitsu.

Speaker 1: 6:14

Nice, so that's really cool. So your home city is Santos. Is this where you grew?

Speaker 2: 6:20

up. No, my home city is Itu. Okay. It's one hour away from Sao Paulo, where I was born and where I grew up, where I met Dreisdorff as well, because he is half American and half Brazilian, and his mother used to live in this town as well, so we met there.

Speaker 1: 6:42

Right and so because he was on the brasser team for some time yes, we are together, uh, under maromba.

Speaker 2: 6:49

Yeah, I don't know, maromba was from, uh, tiago stefanuti tiago stefanuti. Yeah, he was my coach for some time yeah, he represents maromba, so you are under the same coach, paulo strecker. And then ro Robert decided to move to a bigger team and then he started to join. In that time it was Brazza, everybody was together you know, A lot of big names.

Speaker 1: 7:14

Superstar team yeah.

Speaker 2: 7:16

I think it was the best, but I think Grace Baha by that time was the biggest team, followed by Brazza and maybe alliances. And then I started training with Robert and then he decided to move to Brazza and we were together with Brazza for a long time until people in the team broke up. They split in 2008 and I was with a driver, so I keep with him, and then in 2009, I split with a driver as well, yeah, fair enough, this is Jiu-Jitsu.

Speaker 1: 7:55

Right, the time goes, and then you've got to train with who you train with Exactly. But so just out of interest for me, because when I first started Jiu-Jitsu, one of my inspirations was actually Leo Vieira, leo.

Speaker 2: 8:09

Vieira.

Speaker 1: 8:09

Yeah, because he was like so amazing, right, but the team that I trained with in Sao Paulo was Alianze, right. You can't talk about Leozinho with Fabio. Like I said to some of the guys, hey, man, I want to learn more about Leo Vieira because I only ever met him at competition, like hi, but I never learned much about him, even though I was a big fan and they were like no you can't talk with Fabio about him, he will go crazy.

Speaker 1: 8:41

So anyway, that's to the side, Because my friend Livia Giles now. She trained with Rico. He's his brother in Rio.

Speaker 2: 8:54

In Rio yeah.

Speaker 1: 8:55

But did you train with Leo Vieira much?

Speaker 2: 8:58

A lot, a lot, a lot, Because we signed in 2009 and then I was living in 2007, 2008,. I was living in America and then I moved back to Brazil without dry zone. So I started training under Leo Vieira. I trained with him a lot, even like he was very busy all the time. He traveled a lot, but I was under his wings. We trained a lot, like he helped me in so many competitions and then, unfortunately, in 2009, one of our good friends, a black belt from our team, had a fatality accident. So I didn't feel like me and my friends like luisa priscilla, we didn't feel like me and my friends like Luisa Priscila, we didn't feel like staying in the same place anymore because the vibe was not nice.

Speaker 1: 9:49

I understand.

Speaker 2: 9:50

That's why we moved to Santos.

Speaker 1: 9:52

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 9:52

And then we started training under Cavaca. But all the time when I go to America, Leozinho pulled the gun and he smashed me, you know. Yeah. I think no, but he's super cool. I trained a bit with Rico Vieira as well, that he now lives in Portugal and I really like Rico because every time when I'm in Europe competing like, he always coach me, and he is a really good coach. You know, even like I was never his student, but he's part, like he's part of the team, of course, and he's a good coach.

Speaker 1: 10:31

Yeah, yeah, that's so awesome. And so the things I wanted to touch on, because you have had like so much success in your jiu-jitsu and I think you know it's really hard for anyone who's a lightweight, feather, rooster weight to stay in the game because you just get squashed a lot. Like I think about Malfa, like he's phenomenal and that guy for his size he's so strong, but he's a an excellent mover. And it was interesting to me the other night at your seminar because you were like oh, when you get to this position, sometimes if they're really big, they throw you off. And I thought to myself I never really feel like that.

Speaker 1: 11:15

What are you talking about? But but it's, but that's totally possible. Like, if you don't weigh 90 kilos, then it is possible because I, I mean weigh 90 kilos, then it is possible because I, I mean I have rolled with some huge guys and I understand like you can't think I'm just gonna hold this person down, but for yourself you obviously you have a very strong motivation and you know you wanna, you wanna fight. Talk to me about that experience coming up as a lightweight woman doing jiu-jitsu.

Speaker 2: 11:44

Again back in the days we're talking about, at least 20 years ago or 24 in total. But when I started to understand a little bit better about jiu-jitsu, I didn't have girls to train with, so mostly I was training with guys. I always like to say that I was able to train with other black belt girls when I was already black belt. So, before that only guys, or eventually you have one or the other girl come into training, but they didn't stay. You know, because of this it's sweaty, it's pressure you know, yeah, it's pressure, you know.

Speaker 2: 12:25

Yeah, it's hard. And then, um, what made me stay, I think, was because at that time, one of my biggest inspiration was drazo and he was like a my hot model. You know, I want to do everything that he was doing because for him was working. Yeah, he was training, he was competing, he didn't party, he didn't drink anything, you know. So I was just following his steps and I know that was super hard.

Speaker 2: 12:53

He was never easy on me as well as a coach, and today I'm very thankful, but back in the days we have so many you know a hard time on the mat as well, um, and I don't know, I think I just um, persist a lot, you know, because when you're small, uh, maybe they go too easy, they go too hard. You know it's very hard to find, like, the balance, uh, but I think I like it so much and I persist you didn't care, you just go for it anyway. Yeah, and then I started to find, but that was a long time after I started, you know, to find better, like angles, how to position myself you know, after I pass the guard, all the time they are swapping me back you know, and I didn't like that.

Speaker 2: 13:41

So, okay, maybe if I do this or this, and how can I move a big person if they are on top, so I start to use more of my legs instead of only pushing, you know. But uh, yeah about I was like being smashed all the time and then I survived nice, this is the game right, and so your first world championship was 2006 as a black belt?

Speaker 1: 14:06

yes, right, but you were winning the championships at all the belt levels coming up.

Speaker 1: 14:11

Yes, I was because I started jujitsu in 2008 8, yeah, but I I was very early, within one year of training, because I my first trip to Brazil was 2009, with my first year of Jiu Jitsu. I was like I want to go there and compete, and so I became aware of how passionate Brazilian people are about Jiu Jitsu, because I went to Tujuca Tennis Club and I fought Rio Open and man, it was crazy, you know, and my coach also had old tapes of the championships, like tethered air and hodger, and and it made me more passionate about jiu-jitsu because I was like these people like living for this, live and die for this, you know, and it made me become even more, oh, I gotta do this, I have to go back to brazil, I have to train. Did you have a moment like that where you and you're like I have to do this?

Speaker 2: 15:07

Yeah, Do you have a?

Speaker 1: 15:08

moment like that.

Speaker 2: 15:10

Yeah, as a white belt blue belt I was competing in all the small competitions or big competitions. I got promoted to blue belt in May and then, when it was June in 2002, I was doing my first world. Wow. Yeah, but I lost the first one. I won, I think, one fight and I lost. Okay, I want to do anyway because I didn't feel that I was ready to win, but I want to take the experience you know how it is to fight the world. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 15:42

And then in the next year, in 2003, I went back and stronger and then I won my first blue belt and back in the days then I got promoted to purple. Purple and black belt was fighting together First year as well as a purple. I lost as well again. And then I started to think like, oh, you know why I need to focus more on jujitsu? Because I was studying. I think I was in the second year of university. Yeah, of nutrition.

Speaker 1: 16:17

Oh right.

Speaker 2: 16:17

Yeah, but then I had to have a serious conversation with my parents and say like, look, I was winning everything before and now as a purple, brown, black. They put together.

Speaker 1: 16:28

That's so hot.

Speaker 2: 16:29

Yeah, I had to train more. They didn't have enough goals so they had to do that. And then my parents. Of course they totally understood. You know, I promised them I would go back to school, but it took me like a few, not a few, but a lot of years, many years.

Speaker 2: 16:47

So in 2004, I decided to focus only in jiu-jitsu. So I have that. I still didn't have money. So I had to have a part-time job, work a little bit, get my money and pay the registrations or the trip, the travels. And then that was my moment. You know, uh, fight uh the woods when it was in uh tijuca. Uh was amazing. That was uh. I had a good memory. Every time they asked me what was your for your favorite fight or something. I don't know if it's a fight, but the moment when I was a brown belt and I was fighting the final in the woods in Tejuca against Wongo, and I was losing, you know, and that year we were still Brazza, so I was losing the final, and I saw all my teammates they make a lot of noise. Let's go, let's go Vai. Michelle bora, I think the girl got me in a choke. She took my back. I was losing very bad. I don't know how, but I found the strength to escape and I put her and I tap her in the triangle.

Speaker 1: 18:03

So the.

Speaker 2: 18:03

Tijitsu was crazy.

Speaker 1: 18:05

Blowing up.

Speaker 2: 18:06

Yeah, and that energy from that place, it's so unbelievable. Amazing. And now we don't have the competitions there anymore, but it was like the people that had the opportunity to experience that you know, has different feelings about Jiu-Jitsu and about competitions, for sure, like it's nice when it moved to America in the next year, in 2007,. But we always like the old school people. For sure we miss the Tijuca energy. You know, not the place in C, because our pyramid is much more beautiful, for example, but the energy over there yeah, it's pretty amazing.

Speaker 1: 18:49

I remember, yeah, going there 2009 and the, the bathrooms were like really old school. I was like, wow, it feels like a bit like coliseum, you know. But the green and yellow mats, you know, because I had been seeing that on the tapes, the old bjj tapes, their fights with like margarita and um, yeah, roger and and also um, jacare and yeah, like tethered eggs going crazy and all of that man. But I saw one match, which that you're talking about the energy. It was hodolfo, when he was still brown belt, fighting braga netto in the final of the brazil era and I didn't know, but it was.

Speaker 1: 19:36

Braga netto hurt his knee and he's and hodolfo put him in the x guard and it's like a tie match, like eight points each something, and you know it's like 30 seconds. If hodofa is going to sweep, it's game over. And I was training with gordo jujitsu and then brago netto was there in this time and so all their teams going crazy and gf teams going crazy, everyone's going crazy. And in the last second, when hodofa is coming up to sweep, braga Neto jumped the triangle with his bad knee. He just pulled his shin, locked up the triangle, cranking it on his head, and then tapped him in the last 10 seconds. Everyone's going. It was huge like the moment, like you're saying just pulling out that win and yeah, that still stays with me as a moment in time.

Speaker 2: 20:29

Yeah, it's so amazing Like I still remember. And after that fight in the finals, I got promoted to black belt.

Speaker 1: 20:36

Oh, amazing.

Speaker 2: 20:36

So when I look, you know, I finish the fight, I look everybody was standing up, you know, and clapping. It was like one of my biggest memories in Jiu-Jitsu in Tijuca. In that moment I decided you know, know, I don't know what's gonna happen, but I want to live with jujitsu. I I had decided that when I was purple, but I still was a little bit struggle with, uh, money and and a lot of things, and then after that I said, no, this is what I want to do that's so good.

Speaker 1: 21:05

Tell me a little bit more about your game, because the first time I ever kind of came across your game was actually through YouTube and watching the Shin on Shin and playing like a sit-up guard, and I was like, wow, this is so cool. And then I started going down a bit of a rabbit hole watching your game and then I was very lucky to do your seminar. I can't remember what year it was, maybe it was like 2011, 2012 long time ago. How did you evolve this game? Because I was aware of open guard, spider guard, but then like spider shin, like, can you talk a little bit about that?

Speaker 2: 21:44

yeah, uh, we are all under.

Speaker 2: 21:47

I was under Robert as a purple but he he used a lot of the spider guard and I always like it and but he was switching a lot from neck to X guard or butterfly, you know. And for me I I really want to focus on the spider guard. And one day he told me I if you really want to play spider guard, you should watch Romulo Bahau. And then I took a lot of details from Romulo by watching his fights. Later I had the opportunity to go to his seminars and learn from him.

Speaker 2: 22:22

So I think when I was purple brown belt, then I started to I always like to say this because I was purple, small, flexible and they had a lot of pain on my lower back. I think I told you this before. And then I went to the doctor. The doctor said I don't know what you have been doing, but something very bad for your back. You have like an old lady lower back. And I said okay, okay, let me see. I think I did it.

Speaker 2: 22:53

And then that was when I started to change a little bit my posture when I fight or if, because I still want to play guard. So my back was always flat on the mat, not accepting the pressure on the lower back anymore, as I was was doing before, or then I start to sit more and hold the leg on the shin guard. You know the shin spider or the shin guard I used to. I had to use the hooks Somehow. As a small person, I always start, because Dreisel also, he was always saying like, ah, you cannot push, you cannot push all the time because you cannot exchange strength with a big guy, you know. So I started to use more the little hooks and I don't know what I would play if not for my hooks. Yeah, I don't know, I don't see what I could do.

Speaker 1: 23:45

So it just kind of came a little bit from watching Romulo and then also just yourself, like playing with the position.

Speaker 2: 23:52

Yeah, like, of course, I had a lot of inspiration, like Spider with Romulo, then we trained a lot with Tereré, who is like phenomenal butterfly player, dreiser as well, you know, leo Vieira with his flying style, you know. So I was very lucky to get a little bit of everybody, but I of course I had to build in what was working for me, because all these guys are guys. You know, I didn't watch, and that time I didn't watch too many girls, so I was more inspired by the guys.

Speaker 1: 24:26

Yeah, I guess that's the evolution of jiu-jitsu, now that there are far more women in the guys.

Speaker 1: 24:30

Yeah, I guess that's the evolution of jiu-jitsu, now that there are far more women in the sport, even though it's still not, as you know, it's not, it's nowhere near the same as the men, but you are getting now, like uh, classes which are women's only and and more teams that have classes focused to help introduce women to jiu-jitsu, which is it's nice.

Speaker 1: 24:50

But I see, I remember the first female jiu-jitsu athlete I saw was leticia heberiero in. Somehow in my mind I thought, oh, she must just train with women and I have all women to train with. I didn't think, oh, she's getting smashed by guys, like how rough it would be, you know. And then I came to realize like, wow, women who stay in jujitsu, like at this time, like 2007, 2008 they are so tough because they don't even have, like uh, comrades, like other women they can share with, because often the only other women doing what they're doing is like they're competitors, so maybe they don't get a chance to, or maybe over time they become friends, I don't know. But uh, tell me for yourself, uh, nisheli, when you look at jiu-jitsu today and you think about your whole journey.

Speaker 2: 25:46

How do you feel the game has changed in terms of the way it's played, but then also like community in jiu-jitsu, because you're very well connected in jiu-jitsu community yeah, uh, I'm like always when I look back, you know, and I see where we are now, I feel like a very proud and happy, you know, to see the explosion of jiu-jitsu all over the world. Sometimes I travel to small places and I say, like you know, I think you're going to have like five people in the gym, but they have a big team and a lot of people come for the seminar, for the classes. You know, like I don't know Scandinavian people. They're very interested in Jiu-Jitsu. I go to all the countries that I've been, all the places always like the Jiu-Jitsu. You cannot imagine you have Jiu-Jitsu there and then somehow like, oh, can you do a seminar in my place? Yeah, of course.

Speaker 2: 26:38

I just love to see, I love to help spread more Jiu-Jitsu all over the world, and when I start, of course we didn't have that much. Also, maybe we had a lot back in the day, but the quality was not, the level was not good. Right.

Speaker 2: 27:00

And the people to get the money from Jiu-Jitsu. They had to get better. You know they had to work a lot to be able to teach in a high level. I just feel like super happy all the time. Again when I look back also, the way that this is turning to more and more professional. You see a lot of people getting well paid. They get a lot of a job of like talking about Brazilians, you know all the black belts that move out from the country to teach this national martial arts in Abu Dhabi, in Doha, here in Australia as well in America. So I think it's impressive.

Speaker 2: 27:51

I'm like always impressive over this yeah I could not never imagine it, that would be so, so big like it is today.

Speaker 1: 27:59

Indeed, yeah, for sure, and it just from what I understand, just from talking with more people who are running competitions and organizing jujitsu events. They're saying every year it's growing more and more like 30, 40 percent every year, growing, growing. I'm kind of I'm going too far ahead. I want to rewind, because so you won your first black belt worlds in 2006, right, and how was? And that was in, that was in rio, yes, but then 2007 was in united states yeah, can you talk to me about that?

Speaker 1: 28:36

because 2007, like you, went on a bit of a, you're starting to own the division. This is a the reputation people online say you are the pound for pound female greatest grappler. So can you talk to me a little bit about this time?

Speaker 2: 28:53

I started as a light feather named pluma and all the competitions I was doing that pluma consistence consistently. Uh, in uh 2006, when I was, I won. I was Pluma 2007. I was Pluma Uh, I think uh when I moved to uh in 2000,. After the woods in 2007, I moved to us in 2008. When the year that he started training, I was not. It was not good for me. Yeah, because we had just moved to America and everything was new. You know, we didn't have our teammates.

Speaker 2: 29:35

We didn't have our team. Actually we are training. I was training more like no gi at Extreme Culture because we are living in Las Vegas and you know, when you win, win everything, and then I start to put pressure on myself. So the 2008 in my mind I was like because I won everything before, until 2007, I won the open class. So I was like in my mind was like everybody expecting me to win again. So I didn't perform as good, like I was not happy with training. I didn't find a good training, I didn't have my teammates. So 2008, if you Google, there is nothing. You know I think I compete but I lose everything. Yeah, and then in 2009, I went back.

Speaker 1: 30:33

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 30:33

I had to lose, you know, to go down, and then I had to restart.

Speaker 1: 30:38

And can you talk a little bit about that? Did that become a motivation, or was it more that your situation changed and that enabled you to then get back to your competitive level?

Speaker 2: 30:48

No, I think the situation was like because I moved out from my small city in Brazil to Las Vegas. Big big place. First time ever, I live outside, you know, so it was a very big change. It means my family and everything. So after one year living there I was more like okay it is what it is.

Speaker 2: 31:12

It's my choice. I think I was a little bit happier, you know, but 2008 was very difficult, very difficult, I think, yeah, I start like I put back my head on the place and I start to focus. Okay, I had to focus, I had to go back stronger, but of course there was a lot of motivation. You know, Nobody likes to lose.

Speaker 1: 31:38

No, of course especially.

Speaker 2: 31:40

Yeah, we take the lessons. What I did wrong last year, you know, and I start no, no, no, it's not going to happen. And happen this is I think this is the strong mind of a world champion yeah, for sure yeah, I never accepted to be under myself yeah so, yeah, it brought me up on the 2009. I still lost the fight, the final, but uh, people still talk a lot about that final with leticia yeah leticia wasicia was like the one that was always there when I started training.

Speaker 2: 32:13

She was already probably a brown black belt when I started training and I always admired her. She, I think until now in days. You know she was a great coach, she's like a great coach and we did like in, like my opinion, a really nice fight yeah yeah, but uh, and then after that I start to you know, to find my way back.

Speaker 1: 32:40

Yeah you're coming from the crown yes to be the queen and and so like so many titles. It's interesting to think that you could stay at the top for so long, because even you know, with guys in Jiu-Jitsu, if they win three or four titles, people are like, oh, they're the GOAT, they're the GOAT. There's not many people out there who won as many titles as you. Right, you also went to do ADCC. Did your training change from the Gi to the no Gi and competing for ADCC?

Speaker 2: 33:13

yeah, the ADCC was also. I was always inspired by Robert because he wants to win, so he tries before when he competes. In 2007, and he won, I was in Brazil and I said no, no, I, I want to win this thing as well, you know. Yeah. But it was not luck. And the trials uh, the trials in Brazil was super hard. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2: 33:39

Uh, and I always fail in the finals. I think I didn't understand the rules very well, you know, and I fail, I fail, and then, okay, there was one time that I win the trials, but probably three times, I think I tried and I didn't go well, and the last time in 2011, when I did the trials, then I win. Yeah, I went to ADCC first time in 2011, not long ago, you know, like Robert won in 2007, and since 2007 I was trying and I never was successful and then in 2011, lost the final to Kira by like.

Speaker 1: 34:26

If you see the fight like it was, close, close yeah, it was very close yeah was there some bias, some Gracie bias there? Michelle will never say it.

Speaker 2: 34:38

I've seen it, yeah that's tough yeah. Then again, I said no, I had to win this. Yeah, and I was able to to fight again in 2013 in China, and then I won. I think it was just the cherry on the cake, because that was something that was chasing for a long time. It was super, super special for me.

Speaker 1: 35:06

That's awesome and that China event was crazy.

Speaker 2: 35:09

So many huge matches from that event yeah, man there was a girls, like some, I think, china japanese girl that I didn't fight before, uh, luana zugi that was I think she was on my my final, and it was funny because in Gui I always competed the open class against Luan and she had always won Weight above. Yeah, she always win under me.

Speaker 1: 35:38

Right.

Speaker 2: 35:39

No, she always beat me Right, yeah, in Gui, and then when we face in the finals in China, then I could win, you know. So it was like a double happy for me.

Speaker 1: 35:53

Win the ADCC and also beat Luana huh.

Speaker 2: 35:55

Yeah, because she was always like better. And then that time was my day, you know, and we went to China. It was my first time there and China, I see, the first day the guys wanted to do it's like I had the jet lag, you know.

Speaker 2: 36:14

So I didn't want to go out of my room, I just want to rest and focus on the fight. I don't know if this was right or not, but that worked for me. And then the guys were like, ah, let's go see the city. No, no, no, I want to stay here, I want to stay here. And then, yeah, I think that works. Yeah, for sure, I rest a lot, yeah.

Speaker 1: 36:38

Yeah, I hear that because a friend of mine, big Mick, he's a black belt heavyweight, he was there, he competed, and another friend of mine, james Ross, he is like a coach. He went with him to this event and he said, man, the stadium was huge, was like kind of cold, like he said that the event was, their fights were amazing, but the the way they ran it was like not as nice for the athletes. Whereas when you look at the adcc now, like they're giving food and they're doing presentations and they're really treating the athletes in the way that other sports treat their athletes, like kind of press conferences, media, all of that.

Speaker 2: 37:21

I was worried about the food as well. You, know, because the food that Chinese people eat for breakfast, for example, was so different than. Brazilians. So then Leo was there, leo Vieira, and he said no, let's go for like we find the international restaurant. That was only time that I was leaving my hotel room. Yeah. So we start to go for like different food, like more like similar to Brazilians, but that was one thing that I remember that was hard as well to eat.

Speaker 1: 37:54

And were you making weight at that time?

Speaker 2: 37:56

Yes, for me it was okay because I was always under, but the weight is 60 kilos. People have to wait all the three days.

Speaker 1: 38:07

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 38:07

But I think I was okay for that right, you're also mma fighter.

Speaker 1: 38:14

So you said when we were talking you know, at the start you're like I wanted to fight, I wanted to prove myself. Was that something always in the back of your mind that you wanted to do, mma?

Speaker 2: 38:26

when I did my first mma, I didn't plan too much, you know, but I felt like, oh, I always like to challenge myself. If it's too easy, you know, I want to do something else. I do this with my diet, I do this with everything, with my study and everything Push yourself. Yes.

Speaker 1: 38:46

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 38:48

And then the MMA. I had just went back from the woods and I was living by that time. I was living in Santos and Muay Thai and kickboxing are very popular there in the city. So one guy contacted me one of the Muay Thai coaches there and he said, oh, would you like to do a MMA fight? Without thinking too much, I said, yeah, I would love it.

Speaker 1: 39:13

Oh bang, what have you got?

Speaker 2: 39:15

And the guy said Anyone can get it.

Speaker 1: 39:17

I'll just fucking. Of course, let's go.

Speaker 2: 39:18

So I didn't worry about the weight, I don't know. They said 60 kilos. Okay, 60 kilos. I didn't worry about the girl as well. You know, I don't know if she has 10 fights or no fights.

Speaker 1: 39:32

You're fearless.

Speaker 2: 39:33

And also he said we pay your flight, hotel of course. All right. And he gave me like $300. Nice Whoa.

Speaker 2: 39:44

Totally. So, I said okay, I, I go. Of course I go. No, coach, I couldn't take my, but I was looking because in the semi-event I have two other friends, like teammates from Sao Paulo that was competing, that was fighting, so we used to stay together. They helped me a lot and then I go. I went there in Peru, in Lima yeah yeah, so that was my first experience at MMA and I like it, but I had only like two weeks to get ready for that debut so just sorry.

Speaker 1: 40:22

Just I'm clear that that was a kickboxing match or that was an MMA fight, mma fight. So MMA gloves in the cage. You went straight to pro Pro. Yes, Straight to pro.

Speaker 2: 40:32

I had no idea actually what I was doing. You know this guy that offered me the fight, the Muay Thai coach in Santos. He said, okay, I'll help you with the training. So he brought all this is very true. You can ask all my friends, priscilla other, priscilla Kavaka, you can ask all my friends, priscilla other, priscilla Cavaca. They brought all the Mai Tai girls from the gym, you know, and the girls tried to kick and punch me. I put them down and finished the fight and then the guy brought the biggest one, the good or the greater one, you know, and all the time I was doing the same. You know, I catch the leg, put it down and finish, and that's what happened in my fight.

Speaker 2: 41:18

You know, when when they go, we both are like uh, zero fight yeah, I was very lucky about that, yeah so I won. Of course, um, of course, no, uh, of course I was smash that bitch. I was super nervous, but I managed to to chew in. Of course I was was very nervous when I got there. I didn't have idea about this, but I liked the feeling In Jiu-Jitsu that was 2011. So in Jiu-Jitsu, I was very comfortable going to the finals. You know, my mind was always.

Speaker 1: 41:43

Confident.

Speaker 2: 41:43

Yeah, but in MMA I didn't know what I was doing. Scary, and that brought me back all the white belt feelings. And then I started to like that I want to focus on that, yeah, but by that time Jiu-Jitsu was starting to pay me something yeah, competitions or sponsors. And then I said I cannot stop Jiu-Jitsu because I didn't have a contract with any big shows in MMA.

Speaker 2: 42:13

So I said I cannot stop jiu-jitsu right now, and I was doing a lot of seminars back in the days and I said, okay, I'm going to do both, but no, I focused on jiu-jitsu for a few more years. In 2014, another event called me to fight yeah, and then I was a little bit more prepared yeah.

Speaker 1: 42:37

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 42:38

But only in 2016,. I had a very, so I was in Asia doing the tours of seminars and then I went to Singapore to have our MMA yeah and then at the last, the guy Chhatri. Chhatri, yeah, the big boss.

Speaker 2: 42:57

He, at the end of one week training, you know so he told me ah, would you? I heard that you would like to do MMA, would you like to live here, be like our fight team? You know part of our fight team. I said, wow, of course. So then the things started to be more professional for me. So they gave me like the whole thing, like a salary, good training, you know house, everything was paid for. Amazing. And then I could move it from brazil to singapore. And that is like a big uh was a big thing for me, because, uh, if was not for that, I don't know if I would have taken it so serious like I did. Yeah, for two years I I forgot about the jujitsu, I didn't compete anything, and that was very important because I was focused a lot on my stand up game that I didn't have any before here.

Speaker 2: 43:58

There in Asia they have good fighters, world champions. So in Evolve MMA it was like totally necessary for my big change. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 44:14

And how did you feel to go from being the best in the world the goat she's the goat in jujitsu to now you're doing Muay Thai and now you're kind of a white belt again, like how tell me about that, what's that feel like?

Speaker 2: 44:29

Yeah, you have to forget the ego. You know, and the first day that I arrived in Evolve, I remember that you're having like a Muay Thai session. You know a pro. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 44:43

So I was very new. I have like maybe one friend over there, you know, everybody was new. And then I remember Angela Lee was training, so Shatri was watching and Angela was already a champion, yeah, and I said, oh, this girl she can help me, you know, because she's so professional. And then we started the training. It was like aspiring oh no. I didn't know my time before. So every time when she started to put pressure I hold and I want to put her down in jujitsu, but we couldn't do that.

Speaker 1: 45:20

It was not MMA. You can clinch, though you could clinch right, could clinch right, but I was going straight you're going for a date dance and the coach is there.

Speaker 2: 45:28

We're getting angry. You know you cannot do that, you cannot, but of course I will. You know, a clinch and because I didn't want to be punching on the face, but she punched me so strong oh so hard, you know. And we finished and I went to the. After I went to the, the shower and I started crying. I said oh I don't know.

Speaker 2: 45:48

You know, I expected this girl was nice with me, because I was nice with people of course but people like she was after that it's funny because we were never friends me and her right she was in Singapore training for men or getting ready for men of her fight. Yeah. I saw her there we. I was like if she was like here. I was in the other side. You know we never like I feel sad about that fuck her.

Speaker 1: 46:19

Whatever, you're too nice, you're too nice. What a bitch. Oh, that's tough man. I think that's so tough like. But look, you know, I've trained with koreans. I've trained with guys from iran. Where they're from, they don't. If you're not on their team or you could be a rival, they'll kick the fuck out of you, they'll break your ribs, they'll break your jaw, they don't care. You know they're not trying to be friendly. You know, and I understand, like I don't. I don't have a grudge against those people because that's how they were taught. Their coaches are like oh, if you're fighting someone from another country and they could be your rival, break them. If that guy could take a world championship from you, you break that guy because it's so important for them, whereas for me I was just like oh, I just want to be the champion, like it was just like a dream for me, obviously not on the same level as you did you find that your attitude as you did mma longer did you get meaner, michelle?

Speaker 2: 47:18

yes, I learned a lot, you know, from after that as well. So, trainees training, you know, of course, as I had just moved to Singapore, I want to make friends, but I now in days when I see it. Ok, that was professional training, just like expectations, you know. I was hoping to see different, to be friend, to make friends there, but it was very hard. Um, I I think, yes, I was a little bit, I mean, you know, but always I respect a lot the people of course yeah, I think we can be mean, we can not mean.

Speaker 2: 47:59

Yeah, we can be mean, but respectful in the same. You know, yeah, tough, yeah sure yeah, tough. Yeah, so I find this way better than you know. If I have, I see people, I always like to talk, I always to see like to be respectful.

Speaker 1: 48:17

But of course, when you fight, it's fight, yeah, it's freaking on, and so I think that's something that you're really known for. Even your one of your patches is like a heart. Right, this is a symbol for the M in Michelle, but this is like at least a lot of people I know who know you, you have such a generous, caring nature. This is a beautiful thing, and you're so great at what you do, but also you're still nice and humble. Thank you.

Speaker 1: 48:49

Where does this come from? Because this is awesome. I wish I was more like that. I got too much meanness, so please tell me where does that come from?

Speaker 2: 48:59

I think when you have good confidence in yourself, you know you can, you can and also, of course, I brought this from from my education, from a parent. You know they try very hard to teach me the good way. I think I learned since I was a kid to share, to help my sisters. Even there was moments that we fight a lot, but in Jiu-Jitsu I was always so confident in what I was doing, you know. So I feel like I can help, but also I know I can be like you know, put in, like I put my way, you know.

Speaker 1: 49:45

You trust yourself to. When it's time to go, you can turn it on.

Speaker 2: 49:49

Yeah, and this is one thing that people always ask me, like what is in your mind when you step on the fight? I said no, I just very confident, because I never lie to myself. If I'm ready to fight is because I did everything. If I'm there to fight, I did everything I could. I ran, I took care of my diet, my sleep and everything. So this brought me a lot of confidence. Whatever the girl is looking angry at me, she's mean. I always can be, and I concentrate a lot on what I'm doing. If I'm preparing for World Snow, gi Gi, I train a lot. No Gi, I prepare specifically for that fight. But I think my mind is always like I have to be what I am. You know, I don't pretend to be nice if I am not. I cannot be nice if I'm not.

Speaker 1: 50:40

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 50:41

It comes from the inside. Yeah, and yeah, I'm not. Yeah, it comes from the inside.

Speaker 1: 50:43

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 50:45

And yeah, I'm just like that.

Speaker 1: 50:47

That's awesome. It's such an amazing. It's very inspiring. Oh, thank you.

Speaker 1: 50:52

I have kind of two more questions and then we'll wrap things up. But do you have a favorite other than that match at Tujuca? Do you have a favorite fight of your own, like a special memory, where you're like you know what that's. That's my favorite match of your, of your, of your career I have a many oh, there's so many, I know, but maybe we go top three. I don't know like, I just um, and maybe the reason why, like why, why it means something to you to win that.

Speaker 2: 51:26

Yeah, I think when I won the fight with Leticia I lost, but that was very nice because I was going through some personal problems and when I went there I made it to the final on Saturday and the final was going to be on Sunday and that night was super hard for me for personal problems and.

Speaker 2: 51:58

I went there and I was going to say to Leticia I'm not going to fight, you're going to be the champion. But then I said you know what I'm going to say to Leticia I'm not going to fight, you're going to be the champion. But then I said you know what I'm going to fight? And then I had like one of my best fights ever, even if I lost by. I think it was one advantage or something like that.

Speaker 2: 52:18

I really liked that one. I liked the HCC when Icc 101 against luana, of course, but uh, there was a some nogi open class as well in the woods, yeah, also. Ah, there was a one time 2010, I think. Uh, we are doing a camp in cal. We finished our camp in California, me, luisa Montero, your teammates, because we went so early to there. You know, we finished the camp there. She was supposed to fight at lightweight or medium, I don't remember, but then she was a little bit sad because she said I'm worrying about my weight. I cannot make my weight blah, blah, blah. I said, okay, we both go up. I was fighting in the light feather or feather, I don't remember and we decided to go medium. Half I went, I said I can go with you. Okay, just so we are thinking about close down the division.

Speaker 1: 53:24

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 53:25

End up like she lost in the semifinal. Yeah. And that meant she do the finals against I don't remember if it was Penny Thomas. She was big name at that time. She was ADCC champion as well, so I fought the final against Penny and I won.

Speaker 1: 53:42

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 53:44

So I was super small, like a light one feather or light feather, I don't remember. And then, yeah, I did that and I ended up winning. It was very fun.

Speaker 1: 53:56

That's so cool, yeah, amazing.

Speaker 2: 53:58

And then MMA as well, like I have a special fight against Angela. Yeah, a lot of people didn't believe that I could win. Mm-hmm. But again, I think, all that holding feelings. You know, when we fought I was like no, I didn't think that I couldn't do it. Yeah. I just decided that I could, and when I won against her, she was, I think, one of my toughest opponents and yeah, I'm very like happy that I managed to win.

Speaker 1: 54:33

Yeah, forget her. Show her who's boss. And so, for many people out there listening to this, they might be a bit earlier in their jiu-jitsu journey. Maybe they're on their white belt, belt blue belt. Is there any advice like if we think you are giving advice to your younger self at white belt blue belt is there any like key things that you would say to your your white belt blue belt self in terms of helping yourself get through this journey?

Speaker 2: 55:03

What I like to say is in life, I believe we must be good in something you know.

Speaker 2: 55:14

I really hope Jiu-Jitsu is this something for you? And we don't learn by watching YouTube? Of course you can, but you just improve as much. You come to the gym and train and sparring. This is the way that you're really going to get good. Depends on your priorities.

Speaker 2: 55:37

Some people can be faster learning or not, but as much as you can come training jiu-jitsu like we are talking early on the mat, jiu-jitsu is frustrating at, in my opinion, at the beginning, you know, when you keep learning and forgetting all the time until the things start to make sense for you and you start just, yeah, recognize this as part of my game. You know, know, I can. This can be useful or not. So train, train, my friend, as much as you can. Protect your body, you know, doing some stretching, some mobility, compliment as a small person, compliment. I can tell you to compliment your training with conditioning, with weight as well, and try to be a better person. You know, on the mat and outside as well. I think this is the essence of Jiu Jitsu, of martial arts to find a better person that is in you, that is able to help others, to inspire others. Maybe we don't know, but you're always inspiring someone. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 56:52

That's a beautiful message. I think we'll leave it there, okay, thank you, michelle. Thank you so much. We appreciate you, and if we get another opportunity to get you out here in Australia, we might do a round two.

Speaker 2: 57:04

All right, we'll do it. Thank you so much. I hope people get some good messages with this and get inspired.

Speaker 1: 57:11

For sure. And if people want to connect with you, where's the best way that they can either communicate with you or connect with you?

Speaker 2: 57:20

You can always message me on Instagram, miss Nicolini, um and that you're at bjj summer camp.

Speaker 1: 57:29

You're a regular person there, right?

Speaker 2: 57:31

yes, this year, in uh end of september, we have our ninth edition oh yeah, 20, about 25 uh instructors and last year we have 800 students. Oh wow, on the five-day camp in Sardinia beautiful island. I have that one in September. I have a woman's camp in Austria in June. Awesome, yeah, some nice stuff coming up for the second semester.

Speaker 1: 57:58

So good, Well, what we'll do. We've got listeners all over the world. We will put some links in the show notes below and then people can get connected with you.

Speaker 2: 58:06

Thank you for inviting me, and I insist that I my pleasure.

Speaker 1: 58:11

Well, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm kind of like you in the way I'm very tenacious, I don't give up you know I have a boyfriend oh, oh, yeah. Well, you know, you know I have a fiance, so I'm here all right. There, it is my friends. Thank you, michelle. You are the GOAT undisputed and we appreciate you so much.

Speaker 2: 58:29

Thank you so much, bye.