Barney Clarke | From Nature to Nurture

In this episode I sit down with my husband Barney Clarke, a passionate outdoor educator, to dive deep into the transformative power of outdoor education.

Barney's journey into the world of outdoor education is a testament to the profound impact nature can have on our lives. From his humble beginnings to his current role as an advocate for outdoor learning, Barney shares his personal story of how his love for nature paved the way for his career.

We unravel the myriad benefits of outdoor education, from fostering resilience and confidence in children to nurturing their mental well-being. Barney talks about the challenges facing this vital field, from funding woes to behaviour management in the great outdoors.

Throughout the conversation, Barney emphasises the value of hands-on experiences and the importance of instilling a love of nature in the next generation. From teaching respect for the planet to promoting healthy minds and bodies, outdoor education is a powerful tool for empowering children and shaping future stewards of the Earth.

So, grab your hiking boots and join us as we journey into the heart of outdoor education with Barney Clarke. Get ready to be inspired, enlightened, and reminded of the boundless wonders that await us in the great outdoors.

00:00
Introduction and Background

08:01
Memorable Experiences and Impact

16:12
Challenges in Outdoor Education

31:08
The Impact of Parenthood on Teaching Approach

39:41
Never Growing Old in Nature

Instagram - @kenchhill_centre
Website - https://kenchhill.co.uk/

You can find this episode on iTunes, Spotify and many other podcast platform

If you have any questions or would like to suggest a guest please get in touch! You can email India via indiapearsonclarke@gmail.com or send a message via Instagram @india_outdoors / @finandflow / www.indiapearson.co.uk

~Music - Caleb Howard Almond / @oakandalmondcarpentry

Transcript

India (00:00.754)
Okay. So we're recording. I'm going to get my little questions. Okay. Right. Here we go. Barna Clarke, welcome to the Start-Up of Podcast. All right. So, hello Barney. Um, this is a bit of a weird one because I'm talking to you in one room and you're in the other.

You're going to say hello? So a little bit of a disclaimer before we start. Barney is in fact my husband. And we were chatting the other day. I needed to have, I was looking for another podcast guest and then Barney said, how about me? And I thought, actually, do you know what? You would be a brilliant guest because I haven't spoken about outdoor education on this podcast before.

Barney Clarke (00:27.086)
Hello everyone. Hello.

India (00:56.194)
and you are an expert in it. So there we go, perfect podcast guest under my nose without me even realizing it. It's taken me to series six to get here, but there we go.

Barney Clarke (01:08.686)
and I never stop talking about it, so it'll give you a chance to let me say it.

India (01:13.926)
Yeah, and you're the reason that this podcast started in the first place, so I have you to thank for that. So I think it's probably about time that you give your two pence piece on your take on moving in nature, but from an outdoor educator's perspective. So let's start by giving listeners a little bit of a background to you, kind of where you started.

to where you are now. So looking back at the ripples and where they started for you.

Barney Clarke (01:50.398)
So, thank you for letting me on the podcast, that's very exciting. It'll be fun. I started off, for me, really it was all from a childhood thing of, I just went down to the river with my brothers and we'd play in the streams and with my friends we'd make tree houses and I'd play a lot outside. I was really fortunate, I grew up playing outside and in the road and down at the woodland.

India (01:53.79)
..

Barney Clarke (02:18.174)
and sort of trips to the beach and things with families and friends. But then that eventually led into my career. When I went to uni and did environmental science at Plymouth, and I always loved working with children anyway. So we sort of, I combined that alongside a part-time PGCE with my skill to start sort of working the outdoor industry and worked my way up. So it's just always been something that's sort of in my bones, really.

and I just, I struggle being inside for too long, well you know, living with me. If I do half a day inside, I struggle, so I have to be outside and active outside and asking questions outside and just enjoying it.

India (02:52.99)
Hehehe

India (03:03.622)
I notice it if you've ever worked from home, by the end of the day, you're a little bit like wired. Yeah.

Barney Clarke (03:09.986)
I go stir crazy with cabin fever. And I'm sure there's, you know, so many people that are the same, especially people in the outdoor industry, you know, all the instructors I've worked with and the outdoor tutors and forest school leaders and teachers, about teachers that I've met who teach in a classroom. And they always say, oh, I'd love this job. I'd love to teach outside. And I would just say, well, just go and do it then. Just go and there's other ways into this career. And if it's what you're passionate about, because it's very...

you know, if you know that's the sort of person you are, you can still be a teacher, but you just do it in a different way.

India (03:45.21)
I think you're a prime example of that, aren't you? Because you've got your teaching qualification. And there was a time when you thought, oh, maybe I should go and work in a school. And then you just thought, actually, no, what? Just because I've got a teaching qualification doesn't mean I have to work in an actual school. And that wouldn't be good for your soul and actually what you do now, running an outdoor education center, having schools come to you, you know, you're...

But using your qualification in a different way and it's, yeah, it's what is better for you.

Barney Clarke (04:18.254)
Yeah, well I was fortunate in that I worked for a charity and they put me through a part-time PGC and I pushed for it to sort of work up in the management with that charity. And it was a big outdoor charity that had eight outdoor centres all around the country. So we'd do conferences and we'd meet people from all walks of life but all with that same passion of connecting children with nature and having fun and learning through that.

And then when I did my teacher training, it allowed me to sort of connect it all together and really speak to teachers and speak to schools and get an idea of what children are, how much input they're getting, how much outdoor learning they're getting. And sadly not a lot when you compare it to other countries. But I feel it's quite difficult as well because it's a bit of a double-edged sword because I get to enjoy it and then I meet people who are teaching and they're so stressed at the moment, they're under so much pressure and they come to me and we have to...

a teacher the other week at the centre who was saying, how do I get into this sort of job? I love the idea of it. And I was saying, well, you know, you're obviously already a teacher and you're passionate. So try this avenue or try this, or go and get a bit of work experience, or the fact that you've got a teaching degree will make you really appealing to outdoor education. So you've just got to give it a go, really.

India (05:34.982)
Yeah. I mean, so you just said that this country, we're not that great at outdoor education. What countries are prime example of being really, really good and kind of embracing it.

Barney Clarke (05:48.878)
Well, it depends on what level of outdoor ed. Like you've got primary in places like Scandinavia that have the kindergartens and everything's taught outdoors from a really early age. And then you have other countries that have places like New Zealand and Australia, and even Wales and Scotland that have, that part of the curriculum is outdoor education in a much stronger part of the curriculum than that is in England. You know, we have it as part of.

which is a tiny part of it, and you tick it off with one little, we'll go on a trip and we'll take the group rock climbing and that's it. That's the Outdoor Ed done for that year. Whereas you go somewhere like New Zealand, I went to a Maori school in New Zealand and sort of worked at that school for a few weeks and you see the way they embed it in their culture and the children just thrive from it because they grow in such confidence, they grow in such passion and as a community and they understand what they're learning about.

in so much more detail so they actually care a lot more about it. But you know it depends really on where you are. Some of the systems, you know there's free schools in London that do it and some that do it really well and then there's others that have been to and I think it's not really outdoor education or it's not really forest school. It depends on how it's being delivered. But yeah, there's a huge rise.

India (07:07.39)
Yeah. I mean, the term forest school has become a bit of a tick box thing recently, hasn't it? Obviously it's great that it's becoming more well known, but I think there's forest school and there's forest school. There's ones that do it really properly and then there's others that sort of just do a bit of pond dipping maybe or something and then call it that and it's not.

Barney Clarke (07:17.158)
Oh yeah, massive.

Barney Clarke (07:27.863)
Yeah.

Barney Clarke (07:34.286)
Nothing wrong with pond dipping? Ha ha ha! No.

India (07:35.918)
Love a bit of pond dipping, but you know, yeah. I mean, but it is amazing. I mean, I look back at my primary school years and I think one of my most prominent memories is going on that outdoor education week away in year five or year six, which is obviously what you cater for mainly at Kent Shield Centre where you work. And...

It's so clear in my mind and I think for a lot of people, it's the same. It really makes quite a substantial mark in your memory.

Barney Clarke (08:13.934)
The simple, I think the simple reason for that, because I was actually having this conversation with one of our trustees last week, who's just walked from Hackney to the Kent Shield Centre, which is in Kent, to sort of trace through different country sides, the route that some of the children will come in the bus from Hackney, because the centre I've managed is owned by Hackney Council. So it's primarily primary school children from Hackney who haven't been to the countryside.

and they are doing that exact thing as we all have. They will go to a residential centre, be sort of thrown into this unknown, and within a week, I know it's sort of this picture perfect idea of it, but without knowing, a lot of them, if not all of them, will be building from some sort of challenge in this new environment that really does test them in a way that they have to test their character, and then they build from it. And I said to...

Louise last week, the whole reason I do my job is because of the outdoor education trip I went on in year six to France where I remember doing archery. I remember running around the woods with water bombs in this woodland. I remember a magic tree that was there that you went inside. It was a huge old... what was it? A trilling of the tree? I can't think. A yew tree. It was a massive yew tree and it was beautiful.

And that ignited this passion and also I remember leaving thinking, wow, I've been away from home and I've succeeded. And we see that every week with the kids that visit. At the end of the week we talk to them and we say, oh, you know, what have you learned? What's your favourite bit been? And it's not hard to get that information out of them. You ask them a question in school, you know, what did you do at the weekend? No, you know, I went to Tesco's or I went to a theme park, but they don't talk about it in any more detail. Whereas if you...

ask them about what they've done that week away from home, they feel more grown up about it and they take an ownership of it. It's so powerful.

India (10:14.49)
Yeah. Oh, definitely. And like you say, like it will stay with them forever. So have you got any sort of heartwarming tales then from, you know, your, your time watching kids come from inner city London to you, um, and seeing them sort of light up through outdoor ed.

Barney Clarke (10:35.862)
Yeah, we're lucky that I think where we work for the charity is a small team and we really love it there. It's something like a family. And it's very rewarding because you do finish the end of the week and you talk about, wow, how well did that child do? And you really get to know them suddenly over one class at a time. So every week there is something. There's one child or there's a group of children or, you know, even if it's a really, really hard week with a really difficult school.

you go, actually those kids found it difficult, but they did amazingly well from the start to the end and how much they progressed in that week. But I think probably standout ones are, I remember there was a primary school that I had and there was a, they were doing a campfire for them. And there was a little girl who'd been really quiet all week and sort of just been ticking along in the background and doing it really, doing amazingly well, but just.

happily, you know, one of those people in a classroom who the teachers know will always do their best and are polite and are sensible and have a nice spirit, but they're quite withheld and she had built in confidence through the week and then she was at the campfire and she was asked to sing a song and we didn't know the staff knew she was very good at singing and she was super nervous and she sang this song and the whole class was sort of cheering her on and you could see like

you could just see how proud she was of herself at the end of it when she sat down. And that was, I'll never forget that because I felt so proud of her, even though I didn't know her, well enough to be proud of her in a way.

India (12:19.442)
So do you think if she'd been sort of sat, obviously inside in the classroom or in a hall or something, she would have had, or not had that week with you, she wouldn't have had that courage to do it. It was because she was outside by the campfire and built that sort of connection.

Barney Clarke (12:34.889)
Um...

Barney Clarke (12:40.014)
Yeah, I think that's obviously a huge part of it. And I believe that, you know, that learning outside gives you so much more freedom and you don't feel, but again, that's the sort of person I am, you don't feel sort of contained by this classroom space and you don't feel the pressure of people watching you or you have to conform to an exact way of doing things. So you might feel a bit more free, but you might in a way feel a bit more safe as well.

because especially where we were, the biggest thing of what we tried to do is about nurture. So the start of the week is all about making sure that they feel like it's their home for the week and they're safe and they can learn in an environment where they're not gonna be judged. And also everyone else is, a lot of those children are, if we are realistic, they're probably quite scared because they're away from home. So they're in a situation where they're together, they're all having to look out for each other and having to support each other. That's why they build these communication skills so quickly.

because they're having to learn these skills because you don't have that sort of challenge so much in school because it's so regimented and there's a structure to each day and each week and each term. Whereas you come away for a week and you're like, oh wow, what is this? How are we gonna do it? And you see these bonds build really quickly with other children as well in the class. But then I guess it also depends on the teacher. You have to have the right teacher and the right role model and the right sort of advocate and cheerleader.

who's gonna encourage these children. So you don't get me wrong, in a classroom, if you've got a good music teacher or teacher or TA or higher level TA, if they encourage the child in the right way and support them and foster that love of what they're doing, then they'd probably still do it in a classroom. But I just feel at that time in the space she was in, she was like, it was like a little spark just blew up around the campfire.

and she was just singing and everyone was... It was like a siren with everyone watching her and then all cheering at the end. And then on the other scale, we'd had a secondary school dropout, who's a lovely guy called Charlie, who came and worked at a centre I managed in Eltham. And he came in because he had major anxiety. He didn't have many social skills. He struggled at school.

India (14:42.014)
Amazing!

Barney Clarke (15:02.718)
He was so anxious, he was sort of shaking and didn't really talk much and he didn't look very well because he was not doing anything with his life really. And he started, his mum got him to come and volunteer and he was sort of 16 and then he started volunteering mucking out the goats and the chickens every week and he built up this rapport with all the staff in the office and he'd come in every week and we got to know him better and better. And then by the end of a year or so he was coming in and doing magic tricks with the staff and coming to all the socials and...

that was like to see him grow and that was all because he was working outdoors and then he'd be proud of what he'd done. So I guess that's another example of it on a different level.

India (15:44.286)
Yeah, absolutely. And also, you know, there's all the science behind it, isn't there? The more time you spend outside, you're breathing deeper, you're, you know, you're getting vitamin D, more oxygen is going to your brain. You're just gentle, like there's so many positive things that come from spending more time outside. And obviously we find that society boxes us in a lot more. And it's no surprise that you are getting

these are really positive stories coming from kids, teenagers, adults that sort of spend time in an outdoor education center. But I guess on the flip side, there is probably, well, I know that there's quite a few challenges that come your way as well. Um, and it's not all obviously songs around the campfire all the time.

Barney Clarke (16:41.643)
Yeah, oh yeah.

India (16:42.094)
what challenges do you face on a daily basis within your job?

Barney Clarke (16:50.239)
I think you break it down into a few categories. If you're looking at a school and the class and the children, obviously there's the challenges of, if children are uncomfortable outside and they're not used to being outside and playing outside and learning outside, and you have a group that come, we had a group in January this year, and it's...

freezing cold and it's raining and a big part of it is that resilience, building children resilience and you know there's a lot of stuff post-COVID and all that sort of thing but the reality is even before COVID there were children who didn't have strong resilience and that's why outdoor education centres have always been such a key part of children's education because they put on that extra physical challenge which builds them, you know it's a physical challenge for their

physical health, but also their mental health, because once they've completed a walk in Wales or a mining in Wales, or going for a mine in Wales, or a big abseil, or even, we take year six children on a three hour walk through a stream, through an ancient woodland, and for some of them, the children in Hackney have only walked to Tesco's. So that is a huge achievement for them, but you have to encourage them, and you have to cheer them along, and you have to remind them of...

the positive side of it and the joy of walking as a group and talking as a group and looking around you and observing nature and again, all of that links to curriculum without having to tick boxes. You just can see it as they do it. So I think there's challenges of resilience and building that, but once you get there, that's one of the best things with a group and individuals as well. There's a challenge more so of behavior. I've noticed there's a real trend in

schools struggling with behaviour, schools struggling with supporting challenging behaviour, staffing for challenging behaviour, training for challenging behaviour, you know, staff coming to us who haven't got the right restraint training for children or haven't got the right one-to-ones, and then us having said that we can't do this trip because of this or... you know, so I worry for schools.

Barney Clarke (19:04.202)
and the school system at the moment, from what we see coming in and the trends of the pressure on teachers. In outdoor education it's slightly different because we have to have strict ratios for our operating procedures and our risk assessments and our insurance. So we wouldn't run any other way. So we can't go around and go, look, we can't do this because it's not going to be safe. But that still makes it a challenge because then you have to adapt the whole programme and that sort of thing. And then the last one I'd say is funding.

So it's about recognition of the importance of outdoor education. And if some schools have it right, and I have schools that come to us and they have amazing models where they have year three go and do a trip for one night, year five go and do a trip for two days, year six go and do a trip to Wales or Scotland, where they really are put under lots of challenges and pressure. Which is amazing that they are so invested in it. And you see the rewards, because you see how well the children behaved and...

how well they're doing academically. And then you have other schools that, the first thing they say is, oh, have you got any bursary? Have you got any money towards this that you can offer? And you think, well, you obviously don't really understand the importance of it, because if you did, you budget for it, and you'd support families, and you'd go, right, let's do a fundraiser. And we have schools that do bake-offs, and street jamborees, and street barbecues to raise money so every child can come. So there's ways around it.

Um, yeah, but there's definitely challenges, as you know, from me moaning at home.

India (20:40.247)
Yeah, well, I think that's the thing is, I guess, when with obviously, you want to encourage kids to go outdoors and you want them to not be any sort of safe boxes that we find ourselves living in nowadays. But you've got responsibility with that to keep these kids safe. And it's, that's, that's a big, that's a big hurdle that I see you come across.

And yeah, it's the funding thing. It's the, watching you look at your accounts every day and go, oh, are we gonna do this? And it's hoping that, you know, the government sees the importance in it because if there was more funding, you could, you just think, would we have healthier kids? You know, if they were putting more funding into outdoor education, would these kids be?

Barney Clarke (21:13.602)
was.

India (21:32.838)
generally happy and healthy and we see so many more younger people with depression. And there's so much evidence to say that being outdoors moving your body in nature can help. So, I know that there is, the NHS have trialed things before where they sort of put money into paddle boarding or something like that. And they tried to use that as a

prescribe people, things like that. But I don't think everything ever has gone past a trial. So it's about recognizing these more like holistic approaches to health and wellbeing, I guess, and starting with young people, but it's easier said than done, isn't it?

Barney Clarke (22:16.81)
Yeah, it would be interesting if someone did a survey on... because there are schools out there who do not only support residential schools, but they're all part of their PE. You know, they'll be lucky if schools in Cornwall will have surfing as part of their PE, or places like the Wave Garden in Bristol. There were children when we went there, there were children coming off buses and going for surf lessons as part of their PE. Same with rock climbing and things in Wales.

it'd be interesting to see and do a study of those children and how happy they are compared to children in a classroom, in a school where they're not doing that. But then again, it's very difficult, isn't it? Because you could argue that football and rugby and things are a form of out there education. You know, they're a sport, but they're also doing something outside where they're learning about teamwork and team skills. So...

India (23:06.259)
Mm.

Barney Clarke (23:12.99)
It's about switching, but what is exciting is that I feel like the UK, separate to Ofsted and the government, we are moving a trend towards more...

adventurous sports being recognised, so surfing being in the Olympics, climbing being in the Olympics, skateboarding being in the Olympics. You know, nowadays, I remember growing up at school when it was football or rugby, mainly football. That was it. You didn't really have an option. Okay, they'd try a bit of hockey. That was sort of fun, a bit of a to show they were doing something different. But really, PE was football. And I didn't like football.

So I didn't get on with PE, I didn't get on with sport. So going away to do scouts and going away to do CCF and going on trips with my family and walking in Wales, that's where I thrived. And knowing that children now, if the government do the right thing, and Ofsted does the right thing, and opens up the option to do more, which I think they will, because then there's gonna be a pressure to you. I went to the skate park, F1, the skate park in Folkestone the other day.

and I went climbing and I went upstairs and there were three girls skateboarding who were sort of 11 to 14 and they're amazing. I thought wow, that's, you know, the fact that they want to do that in their Easter holidays is so cool. So it is moving in a good direction for that, I think.

India (24:42.37)
Yeah, I mean, I think the local girls school to us, they've got a load of mountain bikes there that they've kind of incorporated in. So yeah, like you say, like it is there, there is sections of it, but I think it's just not, it's not across the board yet, is it? And I guess that's where we're hoping to get to. Do you find that kids come to you sort of with their iPads, with their phones, and you have to...

try and confiscate those or is it about finding a balance between the kind of digital world that we live in and the outdoor natural world that you're trying to promote? How do you, how do you balance that?

Barney Clarke (25:25.706)
We are really lucky actually, I think, because we, the centre, the Kenshill Centre is an old manor house that is only big enough for one school at a time. It is like a big home. It used to have a home, there used to be a maternity hospital for the town. We have a small common room they come into. We have one TV in the building which is occasionally, I'd say, once a month used for a movie night for a group. If it's ridiculous weather.

But that's not our decision, that's if the school wants to do it, we don't encourage that. But also the schools are great because they would normally turn up, none of the children have phones, they don't watch TV during the day, they don't ask to because the program... And what's interesting is I've worked at a lot of outdoor centres and some of them jam-pack the programme full, so they don't have the option to do any ask to go on a phone or anything like that. Others...

have a bit more relaxed approach. We at the moment, the way I am at the moment, we manage it in a way that it's a bespoke program for every school. So we, something that a lot of the schools that we have really value is actually downtime and free time where the children are playing outside and they're making up games outside or they're in the house playing board games. And that's really, I think everyone gets it. And it's lovely to see.

And also it really encourages people to talk. You know, I, you know what I'm like, I talk to anyone I can and I love talking to people. I love hearing their stories. And I think that's one of the best things about life is learning about everyone's journey and to sit next to a child and have that conversation with them and then feel comfortable enough. You know, obviously, you know, you don't, there's certain things you talk about, but.

A child, once they've been with you for a week, and we don't do rock climbing at Kentshire, we don't do all these high adrenaline activities, but after taking them on a three hour walk, and they've never done that before, taking them to the beach, and they've never been to the beach, you build a bond with them, and they trust you.

Barney Clarke (27:36.566)
and you can sit next to them and they'll start talking to you about, you know, they asked me about our daughter Malou all the time and they're obsessed with our dog Tiggie and they'll just ask questions and you can talk to them about what they've got and it builds bridges so easily. And then you go and we go to London and you see people on the tube just staring at their phone and

not talking to each other and it's just gutting because I just think there's so much missed opportunity. So I think we're, sorry I'm answering them quite long, but I think we're really lucky and that we get to see that and not many people nowadays do. We're in a really privileged position where we work with children in an environment where they're not stuck to their phones, they're not asking for their phones.

India (28:06.902)
No, no, that's such a good point.

Barney Clarke (28:22.846)
asking about the activities or they're asking what's well they ask every 10 minutes what's for lunch but that's okay because they love the lunch and it's really healthy so what we serve them so nice education all for them as well yes

India (28:38.802)
Yeah. It's amazing, isn't it? Because screens are there to some extent, and I know schools use them to help communicate with the kids, you know, homework, whatever it is. But actually, what you're saying is the polar opposite, isn't it? When those screens are down, the week that they spend with you, it's about communicating on such a different level.

Barney Clarke (28:56.193)
Yeah.

India (29:04.122)
It's so nice that the kids are actually asking you about your life as well, because, you know, we live in quite a self-indulgent world, don't we? And where a lot of the time it's all about promoting ourselves, we're on social media or whatever it is. And I think that's really cool that, yeah, you have this kind of conversation.

Barney Clarke (29:08.277)
Yeah.

Barney Clarke (29:25.942)
I also I think nowadays is vital because it reminds them of their children. They're in a world where you know I'm scared for our daughter because we were just growing up when mobile phones were coming into use and stuff like that. The things I hear them talk about on social media and they don't have any of that control so they don't they have a break from it and it's amazing to see them revert to not.

talking about all that rubbish like love island and all those sort of things, which they shouldn't be talking about at their age anyway, you know, in my opinion. But they, it's to see them revert back to going and getting as muddy as possible and realising that that's okay because they're a child and going and rolling down a hill and...

And to ask if they have to roll down it, if they're allowed to roll down the hill, and you're just like, well, of course. We've just done a three hour walk, we're in the middle of a huge field, there is a hill. What else are you gonna do? Go roll down it, yeah. And they do that and they're happy. And that's what we, and then we might talk about that area and stuff like that, but we don't force the education, because normally it naturally comes from doing an activity. They might talk about why there's a hill on that land and what the land's made out of.

India (30:23.085)
You roll down it. Yeah.

India (30:40.959)
Yeah.

Barney Clarke (30:42.018)
you know, the topography of the area, but we don't force it, we wait for them to ask.

India (30:48.891)
Yeah, the wall becomes very natural. So obviously we've spoken a little bit about Malou, so our daughter, so would you say since becoming a parent, it's changed your approach to teaching at all or changed your approach to...

seeing what these kids are experiencing, has there been a shift in the last two and a half years since you've become a parent?

Barney Clarke (31:19.898)
Yeah, there's been a really positive one and a really negative one, which is the positive one is that it's taught me a lot of skills to work with children where I have more patience and I give them time to think for their answers, which I did anyway for and I learned that during my PCSE and things but

I now think, oh, do they understand that question? Or, you know, Malou's only two, but I still have to think, does she understand that question? I think the same for children in year six. Do they really understand what I'm asking? Or what do they think of that question? Or are they scared? Or, you know, just, it's taught me, and also the little things, it's taught me to really appreciate when they smile and when they laugh and...

when they like walk together and have little chats and you hear things in the corridors and you hear that you think it's just so nice to hear them doing that because I guess in a selfish way I think I'd love Maloo to grow up in that way and to be that well behaved and to have a sense of humour. So when I see other children doing I think oh what a lovely child. So it makes me value people's personalities more which makes you connect more which is great.

makes you care more because you want those children to be okay. And then the negative thing is that it makes it harder when you see a child who has been really badly treated and they come to you and you hear their backstory and you see how it's affected them. And I had a child the other week and it was really difficult for everyone at the center and having a child, you then relate to it even more. So you want to help more.

But then when they do well, it's like the best thing as well.

India (33:09.512)
Yeah, you just have a whole different appreciation, I guess, for someone's childhood. Thank you.

Barney Clarke (33:15.226)
Yeah, and knowing that they... and also like, knowing that if a child knows their mind and they don't want to do something outside, it's okay. They don't have to do it. You know, before I'd sort of, when I was younger and I was working for other out, my first sort of started in the career in the sector, I always used to be a bit more like that sort of excited...

India (33:28.194)
Yeah, exactly.

Barney Clarke (33:42.41)
rock climbing instructor who every child has to get this high and every child is... and you know, but I've realised that actually it's okay to set their own goals and to reflect on it and to talk about it afterwards and... yeah.

India (33:56.802)
Yeah, something not to be for them as well. So the tagline that I use in this podcast is the power of moving in nature for the mind, body and the environment. And I'm curious to know from your experience and your opinion, does the outdoors and the time they spend at your center, do you see it contributing to kids' respect for the planet?

Yet do you see glimmers of hope the more time that they spend outdoors in how they see looking after the planet?

Barney Clarke (34:34.414)
Yeah, yeah and that's why I started the career and made that choice because I was doing environmental science at Plymouth and I was worried and that was back in 2009. I was worried about the state of the planet and how can we do anything about it and I thought well the only way to move forward is through education and educating everyone that we have to do something and not just

that we have to, that we want to, and that we care, and that we're passionate, and we have a respect for nature. So that's the underlying thing at Kentshire, and everywhere I've worked I've always tried to foster this love of nature, where people respect and care about it, because we're so lucky to have it. And I see children coming to us, and a lot of what we do is hands-on.

nature nurture where they'll go and pick their own food from the polytunnel which will go into their salad so they'll go and pick this week we've got mong to growing so they'll go and pick some try it where they picked it we've got ridiculously hot chilies growing so they can try those and laugh about how you know we've got mustard growing and things like that we've got potatoes they dig up so that goes into their food and they're excited by it

and then they want to learn about it, or they want to have a job in that sector, or that, and they care about it because they understand it. And it goes back down to that holistic education where they understand the world around them and why it matters what they do. And it might not matter to them, but it might matter to other people that they care about. So if you're also building bridges and people that have kindness for each other, then they'll realize that, okay, they might not want to go swimming in the sea.

but if they don't do something about the litter and the sewage and things like that, it's going to affect other people they care about who do want to go swimming in the sea. So, yeah, and I do see children leaving asking, is the questions they ask, you think, wow, if they're asking that sort of question, like, where can I go and do this, or how long did it take you to do that, or why has that grown that way, or...

Barney Clarke (36:47.158)
how can we stop that happening? Or even just trying vegetarian, you know, we, you know, our diet is quite mixed, but since working at Cancho, I eat more vegetarian food. Since meeting you, I eat more vegetarian food. I wouldn't go vegan because of, and we don't, because of, you know, I think it needs to be a balanced diet. So we, and that's up to people to make that decision. So we, we...

we encourage and we give children the knowledge to make their own decisions with that and you see children going away from it and go, oh I tried a veggie burger and it was really nice we don't want them to go and go, oh all I'm ever going to do is eat veggie burgers again just to go, oh I had a nice veggie burger I might have that as an option somewhere else or if it's the only option I'll eat it and then not buy some other, you know what I mean?

India (37:40.226)
You're planting a seed and I guess for them as well, spending a week in nature, you're putting these things into perspective. You know, if for example, the winter we've had, right, it's been so wet and the produce that's going to be coming from growing food is not going to be great right now because of that.

So I guess, you know, if kids come and you go, they say, oh, last year, the group were picking Monge too and this year we can't. And it's about, and then you go, yeah, you can't this year. And the reason is because it's been so wet and the reason is because of global warming and they can see the effects of, you know, what's going on in the world in reality.

And so they can put it into perspective themselves because, you know, as a child, otherwise, how are you going to understand it unless you physically see the effects on the natural world? And I guess that's what you're able to offer.

Barney Clarke (38:45.802)
Yeah, and it's not about the trying to, that doom and gloom of climate change and scaring children, is saying, right, okay, this hasn't grown this year because it's too wet, what can we grow instead? How can we manage the farms? How can we manage our allotment? Because there's children, year six children shouldn't be worrying about, to the point that they are scared and upset and anxious, having that climate crisis anxiety that children are getting.

So leaving feeling empowered and excited about like connecting with nature, that's the key. Leaving happy, that's why you know you've got to pick your challenges. You don't want misadventure on an outdoor education trip. If you have misadventure, the children are like, oh I don't ever want to go outside again. You haven't done your job right and it's not fair on that child. So it's about encouraging it from the roots all the way up.

India (39:41.974)
Yeah, no, that's so, so true. So last question I ask everybody is looking back at the ripples you've made in your life and your career. What are the key elements that you've learned from for keeping your mind and body healthy? And I guess this is very much looking at kind of the key things that you've learned from the outdoors.

Barney Clarke (40:07.062)
Well I've had a funny one in the last few years because where we moved to Kent Chil when we were in the woods, where we'd been living by the sea, and I've always loved the woodland, that's been my safe place, is going for a walk in the woods and taking time out in the woods, going and climbing trees, and swinging on branches and just being silly in the woods, or going rock climbing or something like that.

That's been my sort of go-to to ease my mind and to have a break from everything. And to, I guess it gives you that space to just zone out from those pressures of the economic world that fall on everyone and they don't even need to, you know. So I used to do that, but then we moved to the sea and I, without realising, built this bond with the sea with you, we're together sort of. I think you...

helped build that in me. And we moved away for a year and I didn't realize how much I needed it. So moving back, you know, ridiculously, I went for a surf in Hive the other day and I want to be the first ever man surfing Hive and set up a surf club for Hive because there's never any way. No, but I did last Christmas and then the other day I sweat, there was a storm and when it's on...

India (41:25.757)
Nobody believes you, do they?

Barney Clarke (41:34.822)
when the tides out and I've been saying to you I need to go surfing I'm craving it that is surfing with you is like my happy place but also even just surfing on my own and being in the water I don't I'm quite scared if I go out too far but if I'm in manageable surf it is like peace for me being able to sit and watch the waves on the board and catch some waves at the right size that is like just complete zone out like I'm in and

almost like I'm in a vortex or like a bubble. Yeah exactly and then so the other day when I went and did that and I ran out I took my board out and met this crazy German bloke taking photos that was like

India (42:09.591)
and your flow state.

Barney Clarke (42:21.418)
just fun but it was also so invigorating and the adrenaline and the physical and mental side that I came out and I had a shower and I just felt so myself again. So I think it's about however old you are, I sent Caleb a video the other day of, I think I might have sent it to you, of that lady who was like 92 and she was going out on a surfboard and body surfing and I just thought...

She's doing that and she's healthy because she's happy. And she's going out and she's doing it in nature. She's getting those, getting the adrenaline, getting the senses, like the smells, the movement of the water on her skin, the heat and the temperature. You know, all of that is gonna help you. And it also didn't feel too bad on my hernia, so that was good. Ha ha.

India (43:08.126)
It's always a bonus. So yeah, I guess it's about connecting nature with whatever works for you in your life at the time.

You know, and as when you were a child, it was climbing trees. And then, you know, it doesn't mean that climbing trees is always going to be your thing, but equally, maybe as a child, you were scared of climbing trees and now you've reached adulthood and maybe climbing trees is worth trying because you don't know what you're going to get from it. And, but nature is so broad and so vast and so many different ways to enjoy it. It's about finding what works for you.

And like you say right now, it's being by the water and embracing that. And that might not be the same for somebody else. For somebody else, it might be being in the thick of the countryside, but finding what works for you. And if you know that it brings you joy, and if you know it feeds your soul, then keep connecting with it, because it's what's gonna keep you being you at the end of the day.

Barney Clarke (44:15.962)
Yeah exactly and that idea of you know one of my, it sounds ridiculous but one of my favourite quotes and you know is and almost like a...

Barney Clarke (44:30.186)
almost like a... someone I...

Barney Clarke (44:35.79)
I don't know how to say it, but I think of Peter Pan and like never growing old. And that concept as well, as an outdoor education practitioner and a teacher, it's not just about being silly, it's about never growing old in the way that you approach stuff. So the way that you have a sense of humor and you care about stuff. You know, you think grumpy old men, you think of...

You don't need to be that person. And if you have a sense of humor and you approach things as if you were a child still, when something's new, you ask questions about it and you're inquisitive and you touch it and pick it up and you smell it and all those sort of things, then you are gonna thrive in life and probably be more healthy because you are challenging your senses and you're also gonna be more happy because you've got a sense of humor. So that's something that, you know.

I think's important in nature is that concept of never growing old in nature. You know, even going and doing snow angels when you're 50. Like I'd do that now.

India (45:41.086)
connecting with your inner child always. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Definitely, definitely. I guess come back to being a parent what's one of the joys of being a parent because actually you get to almost your children force you to do that a little bit, which is really cool. Yeah, in the garden, exactly. We wouldn't have done that if it wasn't for her. Well, thank you very much Barney Clark for joining me on today's episode. It's been really, really cool. And actually I've...

Barney Clarke (45:50.126)
Hmm.

Barney Clarke (45:54.334)
Yeah, I like putting fairy doors out like we're doing this morning with Maloo.

India (46:11.554)
I've learned a lot that I didn't know about your world and your job and stuff. Considering I'm married to you, that's quite something. So there we go. So yeah, I'll put all the links to where you work and everything in this show notes too. So if anyone's interested, they can.

Barney Clarke (46:24.683)
Thank you.

Barney Clarke (46:33.706)
Yeah and if anyone's looking to get into outdoor education from a teaching background, you know, I'm not, you know, by no means I've still got so much to learn and I'm well aware of that. But I feel quite fortunate in that I'm a young manager, I've worked at a few different centres, I've got my teacher training, I've got other qualifications that mean I have enough experience to help and give people a bit of advice and hope that it will help them.

So if there's anyone ever wanting to know what they could do next, I'm more than happy to have a chat.

India (47:06.574)
Yeah, definitely. Oh, thanks, Barn. Right. I'm hungry now. It's time for dinner. Get, get the oven on.

Barney Clarke (47:11.358)
Yeah, dinner.

Barney Clarke (47:18.446)
Bye.