Dr. Oscar Alleyne – “Freemasonry’s Social Contract”

This week we sit down with our friend and Brother, Dr. Oscar Alleyne, who hails from the Grand Lodge of New York. Oscar shares fascinating insights, not only from his professional career in the national public health sector, but also on his extensive global Masonic travels and copious research. 

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Hi again, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Minnesota Masonic histories and mysteries. My guest today has a ton of experience in the local and national public health sector, skilled in epidemiology, equity, health communication, biosurveillance. Data modernization and environmental health and systems integration. He is a strong community and innovative professional with a doctor of public health focused on health policy and management from New York medical college and a master of public health and environmental health and epidemiology. He is also an active Freemason with the grand lodge of New York, traveling extensively to share the findings of his extensive Masonic research. And history. Welcome brother. Oscar Allen. Thank you. Thank you very much. It was quite a surprise today to receive a text message from you saying, guess where I am right now? And I first thought, mom, where, where might you be in your Masonic travels, England, Poland, somewhere, and here you are in Minneapolis. So it's great to see you number one, and even more of a privilege to be able to sit down and chat. Hey, I'm in your hometown. I'm better. Make sure I check in. So tell us where, where were you born? Where'd you grow up? Everything for me is a story. I was born on the Caribbean Island of Grenada. And I grew up in the island of Barbados after age 5 to 14 until we emigrated and moved to Brooklyn, New York, so I'm a New Yorker. You are a New Yorker through and through. And where'd you go to school? I went to school in Queens, New York, Beach Channel High School, the only school in New York City that had an oceanography program because I had an interest in oceanography, marine biology. Appreciate it. And subsequently, um, from there went to college in New Jersey, then figured out marine biology was probably not where it was going to be for me. So I ended up going to the University of Buffalo in New York for biology, uh, and then subsequently, into graduate school for public health and epidemiology. How does someone end up in public health, epidemiology, clearly the path before you was, you know, made itself known as you went through school, but what was the pull that really interested you in that? Well, I always knew that I wanted to be a doctor from a very young age. and, What was unique for the move into epidemiology came from two fronts. One, my grandmother had developed multiple myeloma, which is cancer of the bone marrow. And as most individuals, you have a person who loved one, who didn't drink, smoke, didn't do anything that should have led them to have this illness, and you want to find out why. And, In order to find out why, and whether there's an environmental reason, et cetera, that's how I chanced upon environmental health science or environmental epidemiology. Um, and secondly, my, So, um, my youngest uncle, which is her youngest son, uh, was also, he's six years older than me, and he was in medical school, and when I would pick him up, um, as he was coming back from his residency program, he essentially said, you know, these doctors nowadays, they're, they're doing this thing called epidemiology, you should really look into that, because you're a people person, and I looked at him and said, you know, I want to be a doctor, and you're it. about to be one or you're doing your residency and you're not a people person. So pretty much, um, I went into, uh, went into epidemiology and environmental health, found that. The reasoning, uh, for many of these illnesses are not clearly defined, so while I was hoping to find an answer, it wasn't the answer I hoped for, but it did help me identify how issues around equity, issues around, populations in health, safety, wellness, uh, just the total construct is unique and something I really got very, very involved in and became a national leader in. It's hard to imagine going into that field in today's world and not being a people person, but I know that's, it's not always the way it's been. Yeah. Yeah. You would think, you know, physicians, especially if you deal with patients, you better have people skills. So I always find that to be the biggest point of irony that the doctor is telling me you should go into public health because you're a people person. Well, we earlier this year, we talked with Dr. Douglas Yee, who is the director of the Masonic Cancer Center here at the U of M. And he mentioned years ago that transformation of really taking the health care, the relationship to the bedside. And in the moment, I thought, well, of course, how else would you do it? But that wasn't the way that it used to be. I've got to imagine that it really goes a long way with patients and families and the whole. group of people involved. Yeah, the, I, the entire concept of public health and population health is very unique because it goes back to those foundation stones. So when someone's sick, you don't just look at the cause of their illness. You look at everything around them, how it's impacted, who else? It's not just the individuals. What I used to always, when I was the epidemiologist for a county, Rockland County, New York, I would have to explain to physicians that, you know, You're just looking at your group of patients. I have to look at the entire community. So, when you are testing someone for, uh, a highly infectious disease, you can't just say, oh, I'm gonna test for this and not report it, because that individual may have been in contact with this person. They may have gone to church. They may have been in the supermarket. Um, they may have children that are in other, you know, there are all these connected points. And all of that comes together when you think about the whole health, uh, construct, not just the The humans, right? The environment, the animals, all of those things are part of the scenario that really comes into play. And if you think going back to how medicine used to be practiced, where you had the local physician, they didn't just ask, What was your temperature? What's going on at work? What's going on with your family? What, you know, how are things with this? How's the, you know, how's your business? How's, you know, farm, whatever it may be in that holistic or whole of systems approach, I think is really where we see the most benefit of trying to really make a change. You have an extensive amount of experience in areas of expertise, but what would you say? that you find the most rewarding about your career, generally speaking? The most rewarding at this stage of my life is the ability to mentor the next generation of public health leaders. And that's what I've been spending the last seven plus years, and not only identifying innovation, But making sure if others can see their value and what they can bring to the table because others mentored me and now I'm in a position where my leadership is not want to say, Oh, I'm in the room, but what else is there and how can we help drive things forward to make a change to make an impact? And it's not to just say, Oh, impact and check a box, but impact that you were able to execute something that either helped. The next generation of professionals move the needle even further, and be able to really ensure that communities, individuals, families, all of the above, institutions have a better concept of what it means to be, uh, living a healthy life in the absence of disease, but also wellness, mental, behavioral, all of those aspects are really important. So that's what I cherish the most and look most forward to. know you're in town for a conference that's lasting several days. I'm glad that you're, you're getting a nice feel of autumn weather in Minnesota. I know you're grateful to not be here in January, but what, what three words would a colleague use to describe you, uh, to describe me, uh, energetic, um, passionate, and, someone said, I'm usually. I would concur on the Masonic front, because our, our paths have crossed through Freemasonry. while on that note, how did you, in this busy schedule, in the, the professional life you lead, how did you end up at the Westgate and pursuing Freemasonry? Everything's a story with Oscar. I wonder if you ever, um, you know, chance upon having conversation. The answer to that question goes back to college. I was in college at Buffalo, and I was joined in my local college university, college fraternity, and I was the founder of that chapter. Which house? Um, it was Malik Fraternity Incorporated, an African centered fraternity. And, they, required you to know more than a typical chapter member. And part of the requirement was to do a history of fraternalism in the U S and everything I kept researching, kept popping back to Freemasonry. Everything. And I'm a very good researcher, you know, not patting myself on the back, but I just kept seeing and hearing and downloading and identifying things about Freemasonry. So I go home for a school, um, you know, school break and I'm telling my mom about all the stuff that I'm learning and, and I'm bringing up Freemasonry and she says, you know, the older guy that lives on the fifth floor, uh, his name is Jimmy. He loves the fact that you're in college. He's so proud that you're in college. And every time I would go talk to him, he goes, he's a Freemason. I'm like, what? I had no idea. Jimmy's a Freemason. So I run upstairs and I'm talking to Jimmy. He's so happy to see me, you know, coming back from college, asking what I'm learning and I'm telling him about this stuff with fraternalism and Freemasonry. And by the time we were done after that hour, Jimmy looked at me and he said, I always remember this. He said, you know more about this than guys have been around for the past 50 years. And he hands me a petition. Wow. That's how, that's how I was able to get to that Westgate. And even the Westgate wasn't as direct as it was then, but it was, uh, it was where my interest really peaked. That is quite the endorsement of just general research for your college fraternity and to have, um, Mason say, you know what, you're pretty dialed in to say the least. Yeah, it was definitely amazing. And to your question about even the connection between that, of course, that was 21 years old, grad school, blah, blah, blah, kept, kept with it. But when I joined my lodge in the Grand Lodge in New York at the time and really become more active, Of course, you have to show, say what your, what your occupation is. It took them two years to ask me what the heck was epidemiology. This is before COVID where now everyone knows, but they had no clue and they were like, Oscar, what is that? Is that about skin diseases? And I explained, no, it's disease investigation, et cetera, and I was like, Oh, and it was one time I did an interview for local news that. That broadcasted on like the six o'clock and they saw Dr. Oskar Allen, Markham County Health Department. They're like, you're a doctor? As a matter of fact, I am. You know, so that's always hilarious. They never knew what an epidemiologist was and it took them two years to ask me. They didn't know how to say it. Nobody wants to ask the, no one wants to be that guy. So it was your lodge you joined in Buffalo? No, no, no. I ended up joining the lodge. that lodge that Jimmy was in, it was Queens. But I, when I, when I moved into Walden, New York, which is in Orange County, New York, I joined Walkill Lodge 627. And then I, um, I moved into Walkill, Wappinger's Lodge 671. That's the lodge which I became a two time master of. Well, I wish we had, uh, Four hours to chat about all of your involvement in travels and research, but keeping this more of a general overview of your Masonic journey as well. Same question. What do you find the most rewarding? You have, I guess, tell us please more about your role with Grand Lodge of New York. You travel, you research, you've been to some amazing places. I don't know where to begin, and you're a storyteller, so it's all you. So, within the Grand Lodge of New York, I was the Junior Grand Warden elected from 2018 to 2021, and not, for some people it doesn't matter, but I was the first person of color ever elected to the Grand Lodge of New York since its foundation in 1781. but my desire to be in the Grand Lodge was more so an opportunity to illustrate that. Thank you. Our generation, the younger generation, and those masons who really want to embrace Freemasonry, do have a chance to be part of its leadership. Um, and it was very rewarding. Of course, we had COVID. Um, so I had that experience, uh, right after the first year of our, um, first two years of our term. but really, essentially, uh, really trying to, you know, Truly embrace the spirit of brotherhood. What has been very interesting to me is the ability to travel all over the world for Freemasonry, whether it's Minnesota or, you know, as you said, Poland, England, Bermuda. I've been in Nigeria. I've been so many different places in Freemasonry and it's so unique to find brothers every place. everywhere, to say, I know someone there, or I can find you someone there. And just that sense of camaraderie, the sharing of that coming out commonality, and that the message that we say that oftentimes we find ourselves amongst folks that, with the exception of Freemasonry, we would not, we would not have been exposed. And truly embodying that sense of spirit and, and, and. understanding has really been so remarkable. Also, I've been able to do research in Paris and in, in, Actually, Minnesota as well. There's a paper that I wrote that you guys had some very important information that helped and really find it in brothers who not only are thinking about history, but thinking about even contemporary issues as it pertains to what can they do? What are practical elements like I'm in public health, some practical and not just in theory. How do we Put things into practice and really applying those same principles and how we embrace the work that we do with entry masonry. And as I tell people, I'm in free masonry in the manner in which I do, because if you hear what I do in my real world, I want to escape that a couple of times. Right. I want to ground myself in things that really, um, allow me to. express and allow me to really, truly embody what it is that I believe I'm here on Earth to accomplish. How have your travels, the connections? And I say connections, I mean, that friendship connection, of brotherhood and meeting someone, you arrive in a different state, a different country, and we say frequently in this organization, there are no strangers in Freemasonry, only friends you have yet to meet. What has been the biggest, shall we say, a light bulb moment of feeling that energy, of friendship, of Because we often say in this organization that we are like minded, but we're not like minded. We're very, very different, but we do coalesce around certain core values of friendship, kindness, dignity, courtesy, and respect. Where was it in your Masonic journey where that really came to light? Like that is what this is all about. Several. there have been times where I've been at Masonic gatherings of Where we have an opportunity to share ideas, whether they're symposiums or conversations, Norway that happened, um, Iceland, France, uh, both in Bordeaux and, uh, Toulouse and Paris where you're in a room of all these individuals and they're just sharing information, not just, not just history, not just philosophy, not just administration, but just, this total. euphoria of people coming together with a commonality, though, to your point, everyone's distinct, everyone has their own story. And I get the same experience when I enter a lodge room in a rural part of Vermont, for example, or, you know, go in upstate New York, there, there are all these things that the differences in where you are geographically make are not, but it's the opportunity though. You may not have. the same viewpoint, uh, politically, religiously or otherwise with the other individuals used to have that commonality that you're able to speak the same language. And that's where I find it to be the most rewarding. Um, and the most of the Times where I've been able to feel energized, just like I'm at this conference for work. There's an energizing feel of that community, um, being in, whether it's conducting ritual or seeing an opening and closing from a different jurisdiction, or even as we sit on the social table, whether it's a table, a lodge, or, or as we would say, a, um, uh, harmony that, Brothers just coming together and sharing and asking and, and, and relating things that you can see everyone has similar thought processes or similar areas of focus. And that really, I think, tells you made the right decision and join this organization. Perhaps we underestimate what you just described that it doesn't matter if you are in a highly cosmopolitan population. A place like London versus a rural lodge in Vermont. It's essentially the same vibe. Totally same vibe. And in fact, it's the welcoming that one receives is, is it's amazing. I, I can't find the right words and I'm, I'm usually a verbose person, but I can tell you that I remember going to a lodge meeting and brothers were like, Oh my God, uh, it's only like 12 of us. And this isn't New York city. And I'm like, does it have to be New York city? What you have here is your pride and joy. It's your jewel. And I love the fact that I'm on an old stool that was the same stool that someone had since the early 70s or 60s or 1800s. This is an enrichment that you provide. So, don't compare yourself to You can't, you know, you don't have to have a table lodge with 200 guys. those are the things that I, I always tell folks, right? You know, you compare, contrast, but it's, you own the experience and it's the experience that you own, that you're able to provide within the confines of being the best lodge you can be in your jurisdiction. That's what makes the difference. It's so true. And that's the conversation that we've had along the way with, Lodges that we're all guilt. I know I'm guilty of it. We're romanticize. The historical photos and think about a lodge hall filled with 200 members at at all times. And yet those smaller intimate experiences. Are where it's at. That's what it's all about. It does not have to be a absolute. It doesn't have to be the Grand Lodge of England with thousands of members around where it can be just as special with a small nucleus. It's, it's less about how many are there and more about the quality of the experience, the connection of friendship and brotherhood. as I say so often on this podcast, really peeling back and getting into the meaning behind the words. Yeah. And it's, it's not about the show. Cause I know sometimes it's, it's the, the, the pomp and circumstance. But it's in the individuals that come together as a unit. We talk about that cement, right? That spreading that cement of brotherly love. Literally, if you put that into action, the Spirit of Corps that comes out of it is just so fantastic to witness, no matter where you are. If you are in Europe, if you're in Africa, if you're in the Caribbean, if you're in Midwest, Southeast, it all connects to that particular element. Well, and that leads to a topic often discussed on the membership front. personally, I really believe that there is a lot of power, positive energy in what we do as Freemasons. We can take a group of. Very different backgrounds of our members, both socioeconomic, education, political and religious views, and put all of that aside and meet, as we say, on the level, I think a lot of people out in the world don't realize that is derived out of the Masonic Lodge experience. To me it looks like we have the recipe for a harmonious society. How do we get that message out there, starting at the lodge level? Before we go out and set to perhaps change the world, how do we get our own house in order on the membership front and the experience? Intent and dedication. Intent from the lens of making that purposeful approach to intentionally make that difference. Now, you're not forcing it, but you have to ensure that you're dedicating resources, thought, and effort in order to accomplish it. So, a lodge, like one of my lodges, for example, they, every holiday season, they would go out and give, if there's a family who has been disadvantaged or whatever, I'm going through hard times. They actually buy all the Christmas presents for that entire family. Like it was a fire that basically made an entire family, you know, displaced just for that evening. They didn't know why or didn't they just were given all these gifts and that connected that lodge to the community by virtue of Let us help. Let us provide that work of charity. Now, others can say it is in the ability to go, uh, at a food pantry, or, um, or even, um, doing research, or I should say supporting, you know, early childhood development. There are all these things that we connect. Back to that concept of charity not charity in the sense of cut a check But what are you doing to make sure that you are intrinsically a part of the community which you reside? Right. So if you think about it from quote unquote the older times people knew who the Lodge people were They knew that the upstanding person in this civic government or, or the physician, or whomever they were associated with lodge, there was a value, there was a commitment to doing good in society. Lodges were not always viewed, or lodge membership was always viewed as something being negative. So the way to counteract is by being present. is by, uh, recognizing it's still a personal journey, right? You're not out there to say, Oh, look at me. But how are you applying those same lessons that we're taught internally, externally, and that's not hard to do. Our Masonic lessons tell us to do so. It tells you to go out into the world and impact that change on society and provide those lessons to all. And it's not hard, but I think at times we, we canonize it into, well, I'm just going to go here, do my large stuff, and then I go out and act like nothing happened. That's where the discourse I think really needs to be applied intentionally. Well, and it's not a complicated playbook, and I see it all the time, we feel as though maybe the, solution or the, the pathway needs to be, or should be so much more complex than it really is. But it's, getting out there and doing what we have been, and even in a small capacity. And to your point, not in a look at me or a look at us type of way, but identifying where we can provide relief as a friend, a neighbor, as our, or as a group in what you described in the, the, the gifts at the holiday time. I would say it's the number one ask of incoming. Perspective members that express an interest in learning more about Freemasonry. The number one thing they want is community engagement. How do I give back to the greater good? Visiting lodges and sharing that and saying and the first question I get asked frequently or the other Grand Lodge staff and Grand Lodge officers. Well, are we growing? Are we growing? How are the petitions? And of course we want to grow. We want to grow in a meaningful way in order to do so It's about getting our our own house in order So to speak that are we providing an opportunity to give back in the community in a meaningful way? Are we giving our members the opportunity to learn something new whether that's Masonic education or Or non Masonic education of something applicable and relevant to our lives outside of the Lodge setting. I have to believe that if we were to focus on a handful of these core, really distill this down and focus on community engagement, the education piece, and truly getting to know one another in that setting. Phone's down. Heads up, face to face, person to person, planting that seed of meaningful friendship that will flourish for a lifetime if we put the work in. Maybe that's the big takeaway so often is we can identify these things, but Who's willing to put in the time commitment and doing the difficult things to see these things through? Yeah, you're absolutely correct. And whether it is in the, the experience, right? The experience is important. People are coming to disorganization because they perceive that it's supposed to provide an answer to something that they're seeking, whether it's for their reason for being, or their reason for doing. How can I be more impactful in my community? How can I improve myself? How, how can I be, how can I help? How can, how can my purpose be felt? How can the impact be seen? Now it doesn't mean that you have to go out there and as you mentioned, be on every parade, but it is literally in that application of the knowledge that we are seeking. And in our social, as I call this, the social construct, Our social contract, let me say it better that way, it is in our social contract. Freemasonry has a social contract to society as a whole. And each mason, not only in our obligation and our, and our firm beliefs with respect to the great architect of the universe, our fellow brother, but also our neighbors. These are things that we say, we inculcate. This contract that we have emboldens us and enables us to be successful if we do that work. We have what I would like to call the playbook for the most satisfying, Harmonious personal life and as a community and as a neighborhood and as that just continues to, to grow. perhaps we all have been guilty of taking that for granted at times, or just we focus on the words and we're not peeling it back to get into the meaning of that. And not underestimating the power of a small act of kindness, of relief, It doesn't have to be grandiose. We don't have to, we could do a fundraiser or an activity at a lodge level that may not be a 10, 000 check. It may be significantly smaller than that, but it's also about the sincerity, the genuineness of it. And knowing that a difference is being made. not only maybe financially or with the resources, but how much peace of mind that recipient is getting too. It's, it's so powerful. Yeah. The gifts, gifts, as you know, gifts come in all size and packages, but it's the intent. And it is the, if you ever have to make something, whether it's a food item or a craft item or something, it is the joy of crafting that and delivering it and seeing. The reaction and seeing the gratitude. Similarly, as we say, the work that we do in Freemasonry allows others and allows ourselves to feel enriched from that experience. And if we just take that effort a bit further and not just hope that, oh, I do this and check a box, but it's that intent that truly, I think, inspires, drives, attracts, and helps us, uh, our own personal and our organizational growth. I'm so excited and grateful to have you here in studio today. We're talking to Dr. Oscar Allen. He is a member of the Grand Lodge of New York. I know you're a member of some other appendant bodies. You're a Scottish Rite Mason as well, correct? Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Where did you recently travel? You were at a I was in the Prince Hall Southern Jurisdiction Grand Session that they just held in Memphis, Tennessee. Um, and, What was cool about that, you had the Sovereign, uh, Grand Commander from the Northern Jurisdiction and the Southern Jurisdiction, Wall Wheeler, Jim Cole. You also had the Prince Halled Northern Jurisdiction, Melvin Baysmore, and the Southern Jurisdiction Host, which was, um, Cory Hawkins was the host. And it was just that sense of camaraderie because you had representatives from every one of the four, Prince Hall, of the four Scottish Rite jurisdictions in the U. S. And then Brazil's there and a few other folks. So it was really neat to interact with the brothers and um, and see Freemasonry practice and Scottish Rite Freemasonry also, um, in that sense of harmony. I still think about the statement of unity in, was it September? I think two years have gone by already. That was a powerful moment. It was definitely powerful because when people think of Freemasonry, and especially now in contemporary society, they lack of the depth of knowledge of how far we have gone and how much further we can go. And oftentimes, you know, I tell brothers who are very focused on history, like, yes, we could talk about something from 1785 till the cow comes home. But it's what we're doing with that knowledge to improve the next generation and the next set of time. So that statement of unity re emphasized that The Scottish Rite Freemasonry. Does look at unity does look at diversity does look at leadership and regularity with great respect and honor, and they're going to take the next step further of cementing that not just doing a ceremonial. Let's sign this. But let's have a commitment to meet regularly, to interact with each other, to learn and grow together so that though we come from different quote unquote, uh, though we have different branches, we all come from the same root, especially in a world that is so focused on our differences in it's a contentious election season. We hear political opponents across the board that are spending less time talking about what they would do differently and just othering and demonizing their opponents. But yet, day to day in this world that wants us to focus on our differences, we really do have far more in common than the world would have us think right now. This is what the hamster wheel is doing to my brain at three in the morning and how the craft and what we do, what we stand for in that we're not just saying the words in to the credit of all of the grand commanders of the Scottish right. It wasn't just a ceremony to say, look at us. We're not just going to put this on the wall, slap up the core values in the corporate setting and say, yeah, we align with that and then not do the work. We're doing the work. We're coming together. It's harmony, it's friendship, it's just a beautiful thing. It's beautiful, but it also is a beacon. I don't want to say warning light, but a beacon. Because, to your same point around, um, a reflection of our current state of affairs. We're seeing that microcosm and that macrocosm blend. Where, to the same extent when there's social discord, that's often times being presented from the Masonic lens. Thanks. And it's up to us to basically provide that wise counsel to pull ourselves back to don't fall into the, uh, the trappings of what's happening in the outer world, because we still have our core fundamental elements to help us navigate it. And when I see brothers saying very mean things with the, you know, squaring compasses, um, or with this and that or a body, and it's like, hey, You gotta remember that while we can get into that, those worlds, that we have a responsibility to at least ensure that we can have polite discourse, um, polite conversation, even if we disagree, that we still meet and part by that core principle of being on the level. And I think if we're able to. enact that a lot more and just re emphasize it. It may change some of the tenor that we're seeing because I think it's so easy for folks to fall into the myths and disinformation. Um, I, I deal with it in, in the public health world, um, and we see it in the Masonic world, right? Uh, so it's, it's very helpful for us to really make that effort to, um, to be better. Sometimes silence and circumspection can be far more powerful than a flamethrower of a social media post or a verbal argument or what have you. As we wrap up today, What would you say is your favorite Masonic memory so far in all of your journeys? I love putting you on the spot. Ladies and gentlemen is rare for Dr. Oscar Allen to be Wow my favorite Masonic journey Or memory of memory place you visited that real it moment Well, I will tell you that one of them was actually here in your great state when I came to your annual communication and I got a chance to meet for the first time, lay my eyes on and have the blessed conversation with most worshipful John Cook. Now, everything that you guys had done was fantastic. It was, you know, tremendous reception and interaction. But I saw that brother and I ran up to him and he wouldn't, he didn't know what the heck was going on. I gave him a big hug and it's like, Brother Cook, you know, I've been looking on, I'm looking for all this time to meet you and to just let you know how much of a legend you are. And he's like, what are you talking about, young fella? And that was right before I gave that talk that I gave that you all keep mentioning that folks and he came up after me. He's like, wait. You just told me that it was a pleasure for you to meet me. It's a pleasure for me to meet you. And I was like, no brother cook. And we just had a great conversation. I learned so much about him, um, and still learn great things. So I would say I left that annual communication meeting one of my Masonic heroes, and I didn't even tell you, you all that at all, but I was just so happy that I was able to actually shake, meet his, shake his hand, meet him, talk to him, see him in his element, seeing how he interact with all the brothers in your grand jurisdiction, and just develop a, an instant friendship, out of, respect and admiration for what he was able to accomplish and he's just a regular brother like anyone else but he's not he's not no he's not so humble he does so much work for on the board of minnesota masonic charities and and beyond and in such a renaissance man i keep finding new finding out new things about him hobbies skills Life experience that and I had not heard that before. I appreciate you sharing that today. He shared he shared with me like one of one of His regrets when he was grandmaster, not being able to affect, um, a change that I think we all wanted to see, which is better unification with the Prince Alfred Masonry, at least in this home state when, um, he was from Georgia and of course they didn't interact. But when that finally changed, you know, he was, he was so, so happy about it. And I'm like, you know, all it, all it takes is that first pebble. So you, you know, Don't feel discouraged. You know, things may not happen immediately, but it's just one of those things where you learn and you just sit at the feet of greatness, even though that person may not feel that they're anything other than a general, you know, regular individual, but it's, it's, it's that generational wealth. Of experience that that's what I was talking about. How do you mentor and how do you prepare others to take things further? And the slow, sustainable progress. Yeah, we, we all, we're, we're so wired in this world to push the button. I get what I want. Amazon deliver it tomorrow. I find myself frustrated when Amazon's going to take more than a day, but on so many of these things, if we commit ourselves to that, the infinite timeline, the long journey. things can be done and they start and in that case, many things started with the small efforts of, of John Cook and so many others. We could tell several stories of that, but yeah, we, we love John and it's been just an absolute pleasure having you here today, visiting our states and visiting our studio today. Any final words, final comments before we wrap up? Yeah, thank you again for this opportunity. I know, uh, we had so many different things to talk about. One thing, if I, if I can, in closing, we, uh, on the topic of even membership, and as we were discussing earlier, there's so much being done, so many tools, and we know we have a recipe for how to bring people into the fraternity. It's how we keep them. It's the retention. It's the speaking to that experience, enriching, and there's no one solution, but a multitude of efforts that can really ensure that every man that sets foot through our doors has an opportunity to not only expand his knowledge base, his, his satisfaction, uh, and his, the rewards of the experience of becoming a Freemason, and that. That level of effort. It's what's going to help us when we think about what are tools. What are the activities? What can we do to really ensure that we keep our membership? Maybe we don't need to be a hundred gazillion masons but we can retain the quality that we invest in so that our Organization and masonry can continue for the next generation to come Well said, and thank you so much, Dr. Oscar Allen, This has been another episode of Minnesota Masonic Histories and Mysteries.