Still Rockin' It - Cheryl Lee
Still Rockin' It - Cheryl Lee
What has Midnight Oil's Jim Moginie been up to lately? OR How to kiss the Blarney Stone
When the chords of "Power and the Passion" resonate, one can't help but be transported to a time of potent political statements wrapped in rock anthems. That's the kind of evocative power my guest, Jim Moginie of Midnight Oil, brings to our podcast. We take a stroll down memory lane with him, as he recalls the band's storied past and their electrifying performance at Bluesfest in the throes of a pandemic. Jim's personal journey from an adopted child in conservative Sydney to a music icon is no less compelling, shaping not only his art but his world view. And as we discuss his memoir, we uncover the layers of a song that's as relevant today as it was decades ago.
Beyond the stage lights and guitar riffs, there's a rich tapestry of Irish music that's close to Jim's heart, and it runs through our conversation like a vibrant thread. The intimate pub sessions, the storytelling—they're all part of a cultural legacy that he holds dear.
Our episode transcends mere chords and lyrics, touching on the shared human experiences: confronting fears, the hard-won lessons of personal failures, and the growth that comes from them. As Jim talks about the upcoming film "The Hardest Line", we explore the sustaining power of music and the indelible marks it leaves on our lives.
Join us for a session that's as much about the man behind the music as it is about the enduring beat of rock 'n' roll.
What has Jim Moginie been up to lately ... lets's find out!
Get out when you can, support local music and I'll see you down the front!!
Visit: ThatRadioChick.com.au
That Radio Chick Cheryl Lee here. Welcome to the Still Rockin' It Podcast where we'll have music news, reviews and interviews with some of our favourite Australian musicians and artists. The Oils, Peter Garrett vocals, harmonica, Rob Hurst drums, Jim Moginie guitar and keyboards, and Martin Rotsey guitar, formed in Sydney in 1972, originally known as Farm. Midnight Oil, have sold over 20 million albums worldwide. Songs like Beds Are Burning, Power and the Passion, Blue Sky Mine, Forgotten Years, Short Memory, the Dead Heart, US Forces the list of songs goes on and on and on. Today we're lucky enough to speak to founding member Mr Jim Moginie. To catch up on podcasts from other favourite artists, simply go to thatradio adiochick. com. au. You're with Cheryl Lee. I'd like to welcome into the studio today James Paul Moginie. Thank you so much for joining us in the studio today, Jim. Founding member, guitarist, songwriter, keyboardist for one of Australia's best loved bands that you know created the soundtrack of our youth growing up. 67 years young, Jim. No word of retirement as yet.
Jim Moginie:No wrinkles, yeah, nothing. I'm completely untouched by my life. Yeah, I'm 67 years young and I'm still playing and still writing and still getting out there and doing whatever I'm doing and producing records and running my studio and everything. So, yeah, I'm a busy man really, even though the band's sort of hung up its coats for a while and so, or permanently, I'm not sure yet no one ever knows with bands. Never say never. Never say, never, yeah, for sure.
Cheryl Lee:We're here today to chat about the recent release of your memoir. We'll get to that in a minute. That's a wonderful story in itself. I think the last time I saw Midnight Oil play was at Bluesf est in 2022, which was a really sort of weird time, wasn't it? We were just coming out of all the COVID restrictions and I think everybody I know who was there left with COVID.
Jim Moginie:I know when we did the gig we came in on a bus and we got there about half an hour before and we're totally isolated from everybody, came and played and basically jumped on a bus and left. It was Pete Garrett's birthday so he had a birthday cake backstage. We quickly ate it and left, you know, because we didn't want to get COVID and apparently everyone else got it and we were lucky. It's hard to remember that now. You know sort of we were isolating, we couldn't talk to other people, we were totally in our little sort of you know cones of silence. It was a strange time and it's easy to forget what the world became at that moment. It was quite incredible really, when I think about it.
Cheryl Lee:It is, isn't it? And it is. When you think back you can hardly sort of believe everything that happened. So you guys managed to escape Bluesf est unscathed, then, without contracting anything.
Jim Moginie:The 2022 tour was quite amazing, because Pete got COVID and we had to cancel Darwin and Cairns, I remember, and, yeah, and then Melbourne as well. I think they were that big tennis centre down there we were playing and we got Rod Laver and we got knocked out of that. There was one night where it rained so heavily that they had to cancel the show before we went on stage, right the minute before we went on, which is very disappointing as well. So the COVID thing really sort of pulled the rug from everybody, including touring acts. It's only now just starting to get back in the groove again with touring bands.
Cheryl Lee:Yeah, that's for sure, and it's hopefully coming back with a vengeance for us punters, because we certainly missed it, probably almost as much as you guys missed performing. You are listening to Still Rockin' It The Podcast with C heryl Lee. I think we'll listen now to arguably one of Midnight Oil's biggest hits Power and The Passion.
Cheryl Lee:It's the second single from their 1982 album 10, 9, 8-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1 after US Forces and has been performed on every Midnight Oil Tour since that album, as well as the Wave Aid concert and, in 1983, Countdown Music Awards. The song won best single In 2018 in Triple M's Ozest 100, the most popular songs of all time. Power and The Passion ranked at number 29. The lyrics mention former Australian prime minister Goff Whitlam and his dismissal in 75, as well as Pine Gap spy base, which remain controversial issues in Australia to this day. It also makes reference to McDonald's Big Mac and Emiliano Zapata's line "it's better to die on your feet than live on your knees.
Cheryl Lee:The song also includes a drum solo by Rob Hurst. It's the only studio recording by Midnight Oil to feature a drum solo and it was written by Jim and Rob Hurst and Peter Garrett. We're going to be back to speak some more to Jim straight after this. Your memoir, available with Harper Collins. Oil fans will love it due to, you know, the little bit of the sneak peek behind the scenes of one of our, as I said earlier, best-loved Aussie bands. But there was a more personal point to the story too.
Jim Moginie:Yeah, there is. It's a book that I've kind of wanted to tell my story for a long time. I think it was basically when I was in 1956. When I was born, I was adopted out, raised by a really loving family up in the north shore of Sydney, right up near Hornsby actually, if you know Sydney and then. So it's quite a conservative area, kind of quiet, very suburban, bushy kind of area. I grew up in that sort of Australian environment but you know, England was the sort of the king of everything at that stage, or the queen.
Jim Moginie:The motherland, the motherland and we kowtowed and tugged the forelock with Menzies and all that. I always found that kind of strange, knowing what the Australian story was deep down. And so, anyway, it ended up the book's called the Silver River, because I did find my birth parents when I was about 45 years old and with that I realised that I had five full-blooded brothers and sisters younger than me. I was given away. My mother was about 20 when she had me.
Jim Moginie:She grew up in a very conservative Catholic country, Queenbeyan. Down there she was brought up in a convent and led a very kind of hard and austere life in the convent. Very harsh, no running water, one bath a week, you know. Colds were treated with kerosene, which they all had to share. Yeah, and pumpkins were grown in open drains, et cetera, et cetera. They ate that and they had porridge for breakfast and made soup out of it later. Very harsh, incredibly cold down there, of course, as you know, in the snowy mountains, and so she had a very hard life. So she gave up when she was about 20 and the priests and everybody else who sort of said, look, you can't tell your mother, no matter what, because it'll kill her of course, in those days, babies who were born outside of wedlock were, you know, weren't even considered legitimate.
Jim Moginie:Illegitimate was the word yeah so that that was my story. And then I found that my people then came from Ireland and I'd always had this funny feeling about that. I always knew that deep down. So the search for my identity was really what the book's about. And throughout the middle of all years, especially when the pressure got on, we became a world band and we were making albums and touring the world, touring like crazy, like no time for family life. Really. We were just all foot soldiers in the army of rock, you know. Yeah, playing to audiences everywhere, and there was constant demand for the band, which was great. And of course it's a dream come true in a lot of ways. But at the time, you know, I was feeling very desperate about it. I didn't really know what it was that was, you know, making me feel uncertain.
Jim Moginie:You know, because adopted people do tend to have this sort of well, it's in your nervous system, you in your nerve system, called the limbic system, basically, where when you're born and you're kind of basically abandoned and not given to a mother and put on a breast. I went to an orphanage. My parents got me when I was a few months old and then took me home and loved me, you know, which was great. But that initial trauma, which it really is. It's a PTSD kind of symptoms that you have because you're abandoned, and it's deep.
Jim Moginie:It's not a conscious thing because, hey, who remembers when they were born? Nobody does but it's deep in your nervous system. It's called mammalian expectation. So when that doesn't happen, the nervous system takes a hit and large amounts of cortisol are produced which changes brain chemistry. Basically, this is my science background talking, so my journey was very much finding through the band. I formed this beautiful family with the band and band of brothers, but I had lost the family and I realised that and I needed to find them, to find out who the hell I was really. So that's the search in the book really.
Cheryl Lee:Yes, it's not an uncommon story. I think many families, including mine, have got a story of adoption and I think we're only finding out now how impactful it is. Like you say, you say that there's a chemical link with children to their mothers and when it is severed at birth, there are lifelong consequences. You found your mum and five siblings at about the same age that I found my half-brother.
Jim Moginie:Yeah, look, this is right. I mean, every family has this kind of story. Yeah, it's quite a thing, and I think it's something being really discovered about what the long-term effects of this stuff is. Of course, you know, I don't feel like a victim at all. I don't feel like I'm any kind of victim of anything. I've had such a great life and upbringing and everything. But I needed to find that information. I really needed to sort of feel inside me like a little worm turning. I think about the book tour I've been doing. People come up to me after the if I talk with someone and sign a few books and they come up at the signing table and the stories I've heard, Cheryl, are just unbelievable. You know people where it hasn't turned out well, yeah, and there's also the surrendering parents and the thing they go through. I think my father, when I met him, my birth father, you know, as a couple they never discussed it, but it was in there. They couldn't talk about it, but it was in their relationship as well.
Jim Moginie:And then of course the parents that bring you up of course might feel threatened by this other family, sort of turning up a birth family. So there's all of the various aspects that go into that in the book.
Cheryl Lee:I don't really need much of an excuse to play this song. It's a fabulous cover of Forgotten Years by the Killers, played live at the 2017 AFL Grand Final. Won by Richmond by 48 points, yay, and the crowd goes wild. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did and still do, and we'll be back to speak more to founding member of Legendary Midnight Oil, James Paul Moginie, Well, your band was sort of like your family a little bit, but it's interesting how you said that you always had that affinity to Ireland, unknowingly, in fact. I've just come back from six weeks abroad, including 10 days in Ireland. What a beautiful country yeah, I love it.
Jim Moginie:I mean, the people are just wild, aren't they? They're kind of um, nothing ever goes down a straight road in Ireland. It's very whimsical. The culture works on a lot of magic. It's like the water running through the landscape it just goes where it goes and it does have this thing about it. It's all in their history, of course, and it's sort of incredible history. It's very sad as well and tragic, but also they've got this really strong culture that is coming up now through their traditional music and one of the countries in Europe now which is one of the most progressive, especially in terms of immigration and things like that.
Cheryl Lee:Yes, yes, because for a while there they were losing ground, the Irish population. But now it's reversing. Every pub that you go into there are a bunch of musicians singing, playing. It's so inground in their culture, isn't it music?
Jim Moginie:Yeah, it's the sort of you know the session is sort of the heart what you were talking about, the session in the pubs. It's the heart of Irish culture. In a way. All the storytelling happens to the songs and of course the Irish tunes which, as a musician, are quite hard to master. I'm still a student of it.
Jim Moginie:I'm in no way in control of playing those tunes. They're so devilish in their structure, the way they kind of come around. They don't quite repeat the second time. There's a slight variation in it which is deadly. And then the lilts, of course, in the singing and the playing is the little flick in the throat or the little thing on the fingers which propels the tune in this particular way. You know you don't need a drummer to dance to Irish music, you know it's all in the melody, it's the way the melody's played. So for me that was a fascinating discovery, you know, and I always felt this thing about that music whenever I'd heard it in weird isolated situations and I'd be going what is this? This is incredible, this music. But of course I was a rock dog from a rock band and everyone was going oh, you know the diddly-eyed, you know what's this, and I go. Well, you know it's great. And they go, mm. You know okay, well off you go. So I went down the rabbit hole.
Cheryl Lee:It was in your DNA.
Jim Moginie:Oh, it's definitely in the DNA. Yeah, that's it. It's sort of mad Irishman lurking. And, of course, um, when I did a bit of work with Neil Finn, he pointed it out to me. When I told him I was adopted, he said, oh, you're Irish, of course you are. Look at you. You know you look like it, you act like it. You're a wild Irishman.
Jim Moginie:few times where we toured with some Irish bands like the Hot House Flowers, I just felt a real kinship with these guys. You know sort of the way they joked around and kind of you know whimsy. You know the way Samuel Beattie his plays are. You know they're kind of you might think they're kind of depressing, but actually they're incredibly funny. You know, I think he said something like there's nothing funnier than unhappiness. You know I mean it's a crazy sort of concept, but the Irish sort of operate on those sort of expressions. They do, you know, sort of aliens with the Australian experience in a way, even though I actually know that the Irish diaspora was very successful in coming out here and populating the place. Anyway, it's funny, it's a great thing to ponder. So my journey in the book was to find that and it was really interesting.
Jim Moginie:When you're in a pressure situation like you know the band and every day we're on camera or there was some interview, or we're on MTV Unplugged or playing in a truck in New York outside the Exxon building or in some action, you know it's a band, that's quite political, but we also you'd be on David Letterman, you'd be on, you know, Jay Leno, you'd be on all these shows all the time.
Jim Moginie:And I always found it to be incredibly frightening. I'd always be sort of hiding out the back, but I was sort of and I think a lot of it was. You know, I just didn't know where my stuff came from, but I needed to turn around and face that. You know, and I think that's the thing hopefully in the book that I get to. When you turn around and see the things that are chasing you, they no longer define you. Yes, you're kind of almost in that Freudian way of just naming something and it just goes away and I think now my life's a much more ordered way and I'm much happier and much more sort of in a good place with everything. Really.
Tommy Kaye:You are listening to, Still Rockin' It, the podcast with Cheryl Lee
Cheryl Lee:Sort of facing those demons. It's a bit of a cliche.
Jim Moginie:You know the rock memoir usually is. You know, it's usually like someone young has been picked up and they join a band and they become famous and then they're problems and of course then it's the addictions and then the recovery from the addictions. I'm just talking about the generic rock memoir now, not mine particularly and then of course that's the sort of redemptive part of the story that you come out of that and you find you know, when you're a bit older and wiser, that experience actually did teach you a hell of a lot about yourself.
Cheryl Lee:And you survive and you come out the other end.
Jim Moginie:Extreme situations always teach you more about yourself than non-extreme situations. Things where there's a chapter in the book early on where I talk about a gig I did in Wollongong at a place called the Yellow Roadhouse where 13 people turned up and it was designed to hold 450.
Jim Moginie:Oh yes, this is when my solo career was beginning, back when Pete left the band in 2002. And I thought it's better to put in a failure than some triumphalist thing about hey, you know we go and rock Wembley and you know we did the Olympics and blah, blah, blah. Yes, I thought actually the real the gold in the story is the times when things were very difficult and challenging. So I think life can definitely teach you a lot and certainly taught me a lot.
Cheryl Lee:And we're still all learning.
Jim Moginie:Yeah, we're all students of life, you know, Cheryl. Yeah, and we're all you know so, plodding along like pilgrims, you know, walking along towards the mountaintop, the mythical mountaintop.
Cheryl Lee:Yes.
Tommy Kaye:You are listening to Still Rockin' t. The podcast with Cheryl Lee.
Cheryl Lee:I'm going to play an Irish song for you now by a band of Irish brothers and sisters who got together after playing all night in a pub at the wake of their dear friend. They enjoy playing the music so much they haven't stopped ever since. They are called Kelly's Wayke and this is their song The Night That Paddy Murphy Died. And we're going to be back to speak to Jim Moginie from Midnight Oil straight after this.
Cheryl Lee:Part of the motivation for writing the book and there were obviously multiple factors, but one of them was to give your children a sense of where they came from as well. Alice and Sam, are either of your children, musical Jim. Have they followed you into the family business?
Jim Moginie:Well, interesting question. I mean, my son is a poet actually Not surprising and an English teacher, no, well, it isn't actually. I mean, I think he learned that language was a great source of comfort for him when he was in the last couple of years of high school and then from then he went on and sort of studied English language and Australian literature and everything. He's a very well-read boy now, even though he's sort of 36. He also plays the drums. He's an excellent drummer, but he just doesn't do that for a living, but he can do it.
Jim Moginie:My daughter was more into ballet and dance and movement and things, but she expresses her music in that way, yeah, and plays a little bit of piano, you know. But when I wrote the book yeah, initially it was to sort of give them a bit of a sense of where I was when they were growing up, because we were just always away touring, you know, we were living in Australia and also a bit of an instruction manual into their father's psychology. You know, yeah, one of the nicest things my daughter said to me is she said the other day, she said, dad, because she's got kids now too. She said your voice in the audio book of the ilver river will be there forever with my kids yeah and I just thought that was the most beautiful thing.
Jim Moginie:I mean, wouldn't you just love to hear your grandfather talking about their life, yeah, and about everything they went through? My father never told me much about or wanted to write anything down about his life. You know, he went. He went through World War II. He was a diabetic. He was a car rally madman. He loved racing cars really fast around the countryside and we were always going to racing fixtures like Warwick Farm and Oran Park and things like that. You know he used to. In the war he was in the civilian navy, so they were looking for Japanese submarines in Sydney Harbour. I mean, what I would give to hear him telling me that in his voice. Oral histories are really becoming more common now. You can probably go online and record one if you want, you know. But I think you know people want to hear their stories because it helps in life when you come across difficulty, that you want to know that your parents went through some as well.
Cheryl Lee:Yeah, and survived and came out the other end.
Jim Moginie:And survived. Yeah, that's exactly right.
Cheryl Lee:Have Alice and Sam been to Ireland with you, Because for a little while there it was almost your second home.
Jim Moginie:Yeah, yeah, they have surely. Sam went with me. We travelled around there for a few weeks a few years back and he said, when he saw me jumping in all the sessions or roaming around some ruined castle or standing stones or whatever it was Kissing the Blarmey stone. Well, we did actually believe it, or not? So did I. I'd already kissed it before. Oh God, yeah, that's a thing, isn't it Not what I was expecting? How did you go?
Cheryl Lee:I got within about two inches and had to blow a kiss because I couldn't reach that far backwards.
Jim Moginie:You have to hang upside down and empty all your pockets because the change will fall a couple of hundred feet onto the ground and then grab a couple of bars. When someone grabs you by the feet and you're turning inside out to face the wall, I mean it's the most absurd thing I've ever heard.
Cheryl Lee:Yeah, no, you're not wrong.
Jim Moginie:But it is a thing. So I took him there.
Jim Moginie:But he said at the end of it he said well, I just understand more about you now. You see me in that landscape doing the things that I do there, you know. And he, he just thought, well, you know that that taught him a lot about his father and, um, I think that's all we can do with that kids actually just hang out with them and do what we can do. I mean, I've certainly got more time to do that now, and now the band, sort of you know, hang up its hat. So, yeah, I, yeah, I'm really enjoying spending more time with grandkids and the kids. It's really been great.
Cheryl Lee:Do you catch up much with the boys from the band?
Jim Moginie:Yeah, we do. In fact, there's a film that's about to come out, which we've been working on, which is about the band. It's a history from beginning to end. It's called the Hardest Line and that's going to be out in June, I think it's premiering at the Sydney Film Festival Awesome. So we've been involved in that. And you know there's constant emails and you know it's all of that stuff. We all live in different places. You know we're brothers, so we don't always talk or we don't always see each other, but we know what we are to each other and what we mean to each other, which is the most important.
Cheryl Lee:Let's hear another classic from Midnight Oil now Beds Are Burning, 1987. The first track from their album Diesel and Dust reached number one in New Zealand, South Africa, Canada, three in the Netherlands, five in France, six in the UK, Australia and Ireland, and 17 in the US and Sweden. 2001, at Perth, celebrating its 75th anniversary, named the best Australian songs of all time, decided by a 100 strong industry panel. Beds are Burning declared third just behind the Easy Beats, Friday on my Mind and Daddy Cool's Eagle Rock. Here it is, and then we're back to say farewell to Jim Moginie. Very interested to hear what's on your playlist, Jim, when you're in your car or in the shower. Wherever you listen to whatever you want in music, what do you listen to?
Jim Moginie:Because I'm a musician, I'm always listening to music to see what makes it tick, you know. So even right from the start I was always listening to songs like Beatles songs or, you know, Jimmy Webb songs. So I was trying to sort of deconstruct them to sort of, so I can actually play them or understand what the chord structure is. So I'm always really curious, so I'm usually trying to figure something out when I'm listening. Yeah, I don't really listen to relax, I just listen to sort of learn something. So I do listen to a lot of traditional Irish music. I listen to a lot of classical music. I listen to a lot of Bach. He's my favourite.
Jim Moginie:Yeah, I love noisy bands like Sonic Youth and you know Mogwai and guitar orchestra music by Glenn Branca and Rhys Chatham. I love all that stuff. It's just wild kind of instrumental music. I love a lot of surf music. I love great pop music. I'm just a big sucker for a tune. You know I love a tune. I love, you know, folk music. You know like folk people like John Martin. And also our kind of loud rock bands that we grew up with. I love the Masters Apprentices. I still listen to them. The Masters Apprentices is a great band. Yeah and Skyhooks, what a great band. You know. A great guitar band, all the guitar bands, quirky Australian lyrics and I think they've definitely influenced me in those early approach to writing songs Interesting yeah.
Jim Moginie:Or writing songs about where you're from, not sort of trying to inhabit some other country's point of view, just writing it from here.
Cheryl Lee:We had a very sad day yesterday. It was the funeral of Gavin Webb, one of the founding members of the Masters Apprentices, who just died recently. So that was a very sad day here in South Australia.
Jim Moginie:Great bands have come out of there, that's for sure.
Jim Moginie:All the good bands come out of here, Jim All the good bands come out of Adelaide, except for the Oils, that's right. She still came out of there, exactly Acca Dacca. You know all of that. The Angels, angels, yep, absolutely. Well, the Angels and Cold Chisel were our kind of contemporaries when we started. One of the earliest shows we ever did was for those three bands together for an early double J to a radio station in Sydney which is now Triple J. Yeah, and it was just those three bands and from then on Double J went on to support other other younger bands as well, and as other ones came through they always supported them. So I always thought that I've got so much time for, and also the community stations like Triple R and things in Melbourne. And yeah, it's been a great life in rock. You know we've we've traveled a lot of miles. That's a long time ago now. I'm talking about 1977.
Cheryl Lee:That's right, and you know you have survived it because some of your contemporaries haven't. So congratulations on you know, not just surviving, leaving a great body of work as I said, that formed part of the soundtrack of our youth and our lives, but also congratulations for surviving it.
Jim Moginie:Well, you know, it's been my pleasure. Well, I just think we avoided all the cliches of. You know, we just distrusted the industry, we just trusted so many aspects of the rock music business, all of the myth making about dying young and all that stuff. I think we saw that for what it was. You know, it's sort of. I don't think any of us people intended to die. You're talking about the 27 Club, like and all of those. I mean you know Mama Cass and Keith Moon and all of that, Hendrix, Amy Winehouse, I mean it was all of these things which became overwhelming for them, I think, and they couldn't deal with the things that success brings. I think we saw all of that with a kind of a jaded eye. I that is a cliche. Let's just be more like a footy team, not get on the hash pipe or whatever it is. You get on maybe a few beers and just get on with the gig. Play the music.
Jim Moginie:Give it to the partner straight through the eye. Yeah, sort of play the music. It's about the work you know.
Cheryl Lee:Yeah.
Jim Moginie:I think that became our kind of mantra really.
Cheryl Lee:So there's quite a bit of work out there of the band. You also do have some fabulous other band work and solo work. So get onto the Google-o-meter and have a little look at Jim's other work. And also, while you're on there, buy yourself a copy of the Silver River. It's a memoir of family lost, made and found. So it's a great story about the band, but it's also a great story, a great family story as well. Thank you so much for speaking with us in today. We really appreciate your generosity with your time. No problems, I'll see you next time you're in Adelaide.
Jim Moginie:We'll be down there for something or other, yeah.
Tommy Kaye:You are listening to Still Rockin' It. The podcast with Cheryl Lee.
Cheryl Lee:Not quite a member of the 27 Club but nevertheless dying way too young, age 36. Let's have a song from Phil Lynott of Thin Lizzie. He died in Wiltshire in 1986 having suffered from pneumonia and septicemia brought on by his drug dependency, which we just discussed those excesses with. Founding member, guitarist keys and co-songwriter and now author of the Silver River, Jim Moginie
Cheryl Lee:You're with Cheryl Lee that radio chick. Thank you so much for joining me on the Still Rockin it podcast. Hope to catch you again next time. Get out when you can support Aussie music and I'll see you down the front.