The Power of Play: Boosting Productivity with Kimba Cooper-Martin

Have you ever wished you could turn tedious tasks into fun, rewarding games? This week, we're joined by gamification specialist, Kimba Cooper-Martin. Kimba is a true master of the game, weaving gamification not only into her professional life but her personal pursuits as well. 

Even as a sponsored hula hooper, she uses gamification to reach new heights. Tune in as we discuss practical ways to inject fun into the things you do, like setting timers and rewarding yourself with points. Plus, we uncover how to find your personal motivators and leverage them to excel.

Audience engagement has never been so fun! As we navigate the realms of gamification, we also shed light on understanding your audience's personality. We explore how understanding your audience can help you tailor your content for a more personalized experience. Perspectives on how polls, quizzes, and competitions can serve as unique market research tools are also shared. Discover the concept of personality colors and how they can help you better understand your ideal client avatar. 

In our final lap, Kimba and I delve into the essence of purpose. It’s not just about getting things done, it's about understanding why you're doing them. We stress the importance of making tasks more enjoyable and rewarding, finding our 'why' in everything we do. As we wrap up, we promise to keep the engaging conversations and learning going online. This episode is a must-listen for anyone looking to inject a bit of joy into their daily tasks and boost productivity in a fun way.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:02

Hello and welcome back to the Overcome Yourself podcast. As you know, i'm Nicole and I'm super excited to be here with Kimba. Am I saying that correctly? Yes, okay, because I didn't ask you that first. So thank you so much for being here, kimba, like I said, i'm so, so, so excited. You are a gamification specialist. I love gamification, so first I would love for you to introduce yourself and then let us know what is gamification.

Speaker 2: 0:30

Sure, hi. Thanks for having me. Really glad to be here. Okay, so let's jump straight into what is gamification, because it's one of those things that gets different reactions from different people, and even the experts can't agree on that definition. So how I describe it is everybody's played a game, whether it be chess or Tiddlywinks, or a sport or Wordle on your phone, or Farmville or some sort of game. It can be a board game, a video game, whatever, and in those games are things that are built in, that are designed to motivate you to keep going, that make you want to play, to get to the next level, to beat your opponent, to beat that final boss, whatever that is. And what my job is is to take those things that make games so compelling, that motivate you even when it's frustrating, and put them into non-game settings. So I specialize in things like courses and launches and memberships and things like that, and using these game elements we call them these tools and techniques that are built into games to help you get better results for you and your clients.

Speaker 1: 1:31

That is amazing. Tell us a little bit about you. How did you get into this? This is so interesting.

Speaker 2: 1:39

So that's probably the more interesting thing how I got into it. So the short answer would be that I've just always done it. It's kind of part of who I am. My other half said to me at one point are you only ever exercise if you set yourself a challenge? and I was like, no, i don't. And I looked into it and I was like, oh gosh, he's right. Like I do, i do gameify everything. And whilst in terms of like business direction, i worked in marketing for a long time and then I set up a marketing agency and all those kinds of things And I was doing gamification as part of those things, at the same time I was getting really into hula hooping and I became a sponsored hula hooper, a small company in America And what I did was I used gamification to outsell the other sponsored hoopers by about 10 times.

Speaker 2: 2:24

I was what is now known as a micro influencer, but back then it was just. You know, i was OK on social media. It was a slightly different world back then, but yeah, i was using games to interact with other hula hoopers and train and have fun and make friends, but also to sell. I didn't know it was called that back then. But yeah, when my other half says to me he's like, oh, you do this all the time, i was like, oh gosh, yeah, i did it in my hula hooping, i do it in my business, i do it in all my courses, i actually do it for everything that I do. So then I was like, right, there's got to be a way that I can help other people do this. So I did loads of reading. We've been doing some beta testing, we've been, you know, running things here, there and everywhere, and now I'm able to say that I genuinely help people to gamify for better results as a business. And it's so fun and so cool And I feel very fortunate.

Speaker 1: 3:11

That is amazing. I learned about gamification within the last like that word, right, because like it's something like you said, it's something that we've done you know our whole lives, i guess. And then I was talking to one of my clients and he just looked at me He's a coach as well. He's like wow, nicole, you gamify everything.

Speaker 2: 3:31

You're like what does that mean?

Speaker 1: 3:32

Hold on, and so I started learning about it. So when I ran into you and you're like this is my specialty, this is what I do, i was like, oh my God. So the other day it's really interesting what you said about the definition, because I went to I made a TikTok the other day about like things that you know neurodivergent business owners any business owner can use to make things easier And I said gamify everything. So like everything, you know everything. And then I was like how do I describe what that means? Because, like, in my brain it makes sense, but then you know, how do you bring it out into the world? So I was like, well, you give yourself points, or like you set a timer and see if you could beat the timer, kind of thing. So, but can you give me a few more examples of what gamification looks like in our everyday life?

Speaker 2: 4:20

Yeah, so I think. So those examples that you've given are great examples, but I think, if you wanted to break it down anymore, it's about motivation. So it's about figuring out who is in your audience, or whether it's you what motivates you, and finding things that will compel you to do that thing. Excuse me, no, you're fine, that's better. We'll compel you to do that thing. So, like, for you it might be points, but other people might be put off by points. So you might. You know, it's that kind of carrot or stick analogy. But some examples that you may have heard of some everyday things. So remember when you were a kid and you had to cut out coupons from the back of a cereal box and send them in to get a toy. That's a company gamifying you to buy more of their cereal and you get a prize of a toy. Or I don't know if you have this in America, they do it in the UK. You go to like a Christmas fair and you'll have a game Guess the name of the teddy. Have you seen that?

Speaker 1: 5:13

They do that in America? They probably don't.

Speaker 2: 5:15

I think I've seen something like that. It's a really simple game, ok. So they'll have a sheet of paper with the grid on it And it's got loads of different names on the grid And all you do is you pay a pound or a dollar and you guess which one is the name of the teddy, and if you win, you win the teddy bear, right? so the idea behind that is that they will have enough squares to more than like pay for the teddy bear, but they're doing it to attract you to their store. They're using games to entice you over so that you'll look at their other things and buy something else for you there, and a really smart store holder will also sell the teddy. So if you don't want to play or if you don't win, you can still buy it. So those kinds of things are everywhere, but they're in every app.

Speaker 2: 5:57

Now that it's like it's everywhere, it's in loads of TV adverts, like if you do, if you're in any fitness apps. So the example I always give is Nike Plus. It's a fitness app. It's very simple. The idea is that they motivate you to be more active, and they do that because obviously, what I talk about is a win-win. So for their customers, the win is that they get fitter, and for them the win is that the more those people exercise, the quicker they have to buy new running shoes, new kit, new equipment, and also all of this data in the app enables them to do better marketing so they can sell more. So I talk about gamification from a win-win perspective quite a bit and that's a great example. But all fitness apps have got it built in like Couch to 5K Run, zombies Run. It's kind of hidden in everything.

Speaker 1: 6:47

How my Fitbit, how it gives me like a little like the little birds or has like a little display when I get to my 10,000 steps and you're like, yay, Exactly.

Speaker 2: 6:55

And I know, is it Apple that has the circles on the watch and you're supposed to complete the circles, or something?

Speaker 1: 7:00

I don't know, i don't know.

Speaker 2: 7:02

So I'm not an Apple person, no, i mean I've got a garment, But yeah, they look at us just throwing brand names out there.

Speaker 2: 7:10

So, yeah, they all have it built in because the more motivated you are to keep fit, the quicker you buy new stuff, which makes them more money and you get healthier and they get what they want and everyone's a winner. So that's the kind of standpoint that I look at it up. But if you see competitions on TV, adverts, commercials you guys call them those kinds of things it is in everything. Like you guys listening to this, you're gonna be coming to me in the next week, two weeks, three weeks going. I've just seen this example here here. Here it's everywhere, cause it is, and I love case studies, so please do send me them. I love it.

Speaker 1: 7:46

Well, there's a store by me. My partner came home and she brought home a. It's like a little bingo card, and when you do all these activities and then you do all these things, and then you bring it back filled out, and then they give you 25% off, that's gamification, right.

Speaker 2: 8:03

Oh wow, what kind of brand was that that was doing that? The?

Speaker 1: 8:06

dispensary by me. Yeah, yeah so. But they're always doing little games like that and they're encouraging you to come back. They're like, oh, you bought something, here's some like here's a discount, so you could come back and buy more. And I find it interesting that they do the little things like the bingo card.

Speaker 1: 8:23

So you feel like you're playing a game, right, and I've also seen that in summits. In summits where and like, there's this lady that does a challenge, and then at the beginning of the challenge, she's like here's your bingo card And as you do each one of these things, you get a certain. If you fill it out like this way or across or diagonal, then you get, you win a certain thing. And if you fill out the whole thing, then you win a prize. But all of those things are saying like share something on Facebook, go and share this with a friend, and so it's like marketing that's built in. So you're like okay, i'm gonna go give a Google review. So to you it's just a little review, and they just gamified, help marketing, your marketing for them for free, or they're paying you with a percentage, right, so we can use that to our advantage too.

Speaker 2: 9:10

Yeah, definitely. So I mean a challenge that the kind that you were just talking about is gamification in and of itself because of the challenges. And when we run things like that, we did like we do things like bingo cards as well And you'll see like people running like little competitions within there. So I think the thing is, is people like gamification? I could just run a competition and that would be gamification and it would be. But within a challenge you can have so many different types of gamification to motivate those different types of people to do things.

Speaker 2: 9:37

Like you said, it's not always about making a sale. It could be leaving a review, it could be following somebody, it could be more engagement Like. The idea with gamification really is to think what things are inherently boring to people and what things do I want people to do more of. That will also be a good thing for them. And then how can I use gamification to encourage more of that activity rather than just I wanna make this thing fun, which is great, and that's what a lot of people say. They're like Kimber, can you make my membership more fun? Can you make my calls more fun? And I'm like I can, but what's the business objective? What is the problem you're trying to solve here? What are you trying to do more of? Because that's going to make the difference And the fun will come as like an additional outcome.

Speaker 1: 10:17

That is awesome. So how, you know what, i guess what is the top tip that you give your clients? So like, when someone does come to you and they're like I want my course or my membership to be more fun, so you get down to the, you know, you find out what is the objective and then what happens, like, how do we incorporate, like what's the I guess the? what do people ask you the most about? What's the most common thing that you end up advising?

Speaker 2: 10:45

Oh, my goodness. Okay, that's like 17 questions in one.

Speaker 1: 10:48

So let's go with the let's go with the.

Speaker 2: 10:51

It's okay. I love how excited you are about it. So much easier to talk about this, but somebody's as excited about it as I am. So I think tip wise would be something like you can start small, like I know I said, it's a good idea to have lots of elements in there, but you can test and learn with really small things And I suppose the important word there is learn. So you can try something little, like you can try some polls or you can try a quiz or whatever with your audience and see how it works, and then you can review and add in more things or take it away if it didn't work.

Speaker 2: 11:26

The other thing to consider always is that different people find different things fun. So clearly, me and you find some things fun that other people might be like God, not another one of this, like oh, another one of these things. So you have to think like what are the personalities in my audience, what kinds of things do they find fun And how can I work towards that? And also, what kind of things would motivate those people? So, say, you're trying to get them further through a course. Maybe they're getting to a point, a certain point in the course and something stopping them from carrying on, and maybe that is that you've put something in that's so boring that you need to make it more fun, or maybe it's just it's demotivating for them because it's too hard. So, like, really think, like I think it goes back to that kind of ideal client avatar thing that everyone talks about. But as well as knowing the kind of person they are, remember, let's say, that you're trying to target plumbers. You might have 100 plumbers in your audience, but they might find different things fun and they might be motivated by different things. So don't just assume, because you have an audience of the people that you think are all the same, that they are, because they're probably not, and I know that that's like how long is a piece of string kind of question.

Speaker 2: 12:39

But you can use gamification to do the market research, to find out. So you can use polls and you can use quizzes and you can use competitions to get people to complete those things, to find out more about the kinds of people who are in your audience, so that you can make it bespoke to them, because that's the important thing. Like I've been talking about this quite a lot recently, personalization is a gamification technique and things like Netflix and Amazon and those kinds of things. You turn it on or you log in And what I see is different from what you see. They are completely personalized and people are getting used to that. They're getting used to seeing it everywhere And so when they log into your course or your membership or whatever, it should be really starting to be moving towards that personalized setup whereby it's designed with them in mind. It doesn't show them things they don't need to see. It helps them to move along in a way that is fun and motivating for them.

Speaker 1: 13:37

Yeah, no, that makes so much sense And I hadn't thought about it. but, yeah, yeah, the personalization and those apps that we're interacting with every day, even like in our like, if you've ever grabbed someone else's phone and then you pull up like their Facebook and you're like this is weird, this is weird, i don't know any of these people. like I don't understand these ads, you know, so it's very like strange. you're like no, i want to go back to my world. this is my world and I'm comfortable here and you know, i know these people. So it's interesting and I hadn't thought of that as a as a gamification aspect, even.

Speaker 2: 14:08

Google as well. Like yesterday, me and my other half were Googling trying to find the same thing, and I got that quicker just because of the way my algorithm works. So like, yeah, everything's completely personalized.

Speaker 1: 14:21

Yeah, that's that's. I hadn't thought of it like that. That's so interesting. Those are good, really good things and something that I teach my audience a lot about. I think I've learned more about it. Really.

Speaker 1: 14:31

Personality colors That's one way that I like to help people and it's interesting. Right colors? so that's kind of gamification and there's like animals that go with it, like red is a race car, you know, that's what helps me remember. Yellow, like, like flowers, for some reason. I don't think that's even correct, but in my mind it works. Green green is more analytical, so I always think of a calculator, and then blue is dolphins because they're so much fun.

Speaker 1: 14:56

But when you're writing to those personality colors like something to help you, because everybody talks about your ideal client avatar and sometimes you're like, what does that mean? Yeah, and so many colors have helped me, you know, because there's certain traits that people and, like you said, there might be plumbers, but you're you'll have some plumbers that have all those personalities, some plumbers that are like go, go, go, go, we got to get this done. And then you've got the analytical plumbers and then you've got the ones that are just like having so much fun and they're just all over the place and they're like yeah, let's get creative, let's put like seven bathrooms in this house, and then you've got like the more family oriented ones and they're going to think about things that the other ones aren't going to think about because they're like but you know what? my son does this. So we need to put a big day in here, we need to make sure you know, and so there's differences that you can speak to in personality, colors and like make it fun so you don't have to be like.

Speaker 1: 15:46

You know, what show does my ideal client watch? no, like you know, are they more family oriented, so they're probably going to be watching, you know, maybe cartoons with their kids, or are they more fun where they're watching like adult cartoons?

Speaker 1: 15:59

you know, Or are they more analytical, where they're watching the weather because they need to know what's happening and how everything is and is it correct and and so when you, when you think, even narrowing it down like that, i think that's really helpful.

Speaker 2: 16:13

There's different ways to categorize those people so like, like you said so in your examples of the colors. That's very interesting because I've heard a different example of the colors. They're the same kind of personality types, different colors. There's disk profiling, there's my as bricks, there's all of these different ways of kind of the star, yeah, so no matter which one you pick, is just.

Speaker 1: 16:35

It's just kind of like a framework to help you speak to things inside of people that maybe they didn't even realize we're there right. But it when you can narrow down, like their personality coming out of this person, and it's not that disclaimer you have to have a different personality color. There's usually one that's like with all of these, there's usually one that's like dominant, and then the other ones are still there. But when you speak to those facets you get to people in different places. So I think that's really cool.

Speaker 2: 17:04

I think the other thing as well is that, like you might think, oh, i want to attract red plumbers, for example, so I'm going to build a course that's going to attract red plumbers, but you're still going to attract other types of plumbers and people who aren't plumbers. So you have to remember to build, whatever it is your membership, your course, your social media platforms to also provide for those other people. So, say, somebody comes onto your course to learn something and they happen to be you were saying greens, analytical, right, so you want to put in extra PDFs for those people. You want to put in extra learning modules that go deeper into the topics for those people that aren't compulsory for everybody else. So if they were compulsory for everyone, then the other person outside is going to get bored and they're going to get demotivated and they're going to stop learning, whereas if you don't have those things in, maybe the greens will get demotivated and won't keep playing.

Speaker 2: 17:50

So you need to think like, how can I make this even better so they get even more out of it, so that they learn as much as they possibly can? So at the end they're happy, they're going to tell more people about my course, i'm going to make more sales, they're going to get better results in their life and their business. Everybody's a winner. Like it's just about being a bit more considerate, i think of like the fact that not everyone's like you And I wouldn't sing when I say that, because I've done it as well the amount of times I've built a course or I've built, like well, just a social media post, and really I'm writing to myself and it's like no, you need to think not everybody is like you.

Speaker 1: 18:24

Yes, that is so, that's so cool. You know, i've always focused on gamification and, like my personal, because my book is called Overcome Yourself and so those are some of the things I had to do to really overcome myself, you know, and get to where I am right now and gamification, understanding that, it just it really changed everything. Like you said, the boring things helping me like doing the dishes, you know, setting timers for me to do the dishes because, like I hated doing the dishes. I worked in a restaurant for a long time. So I have like this trauma, you know, like when you. You know, if you've ever watched dishes in a restaurant, you know it's freaking, traumatizing. Yes, so you know it's traumatizing.

Speaker 1: 19:14

And so, like I always had this thing and it always felt like even at home, you know it just maybe that's like an ADHD thing where we have this time blindness, but it just felt like it would take like the rest of my life you know, like you're just, you feel like you're gonna be stuck there, so like doing something, like setting a timer for like five minutes, and then you realize you know what this shit doesn't take as long as you're making it up, you know, and it becomes fun because you're like, oh, let's see if I could beat. So actually it didn't start with a timer for me. It started with me making coffee. I would go in the afternoon into the and I can. I wash these dishes before the coffee is done And by the time the coffee finished, there's like two things left, so I would go ahead and finish.

Speaker 1: 19:54

So I learned more about gamification in my personal life. I love how you've expanded my vision and shown me how this can be applied, not just like in your personal stuff, but also in your business, to help other people, you know, get through courses, because some courses it's really hard, Like you have seven million other things to do and now you've got 18 hours, of course, that you have to sit here like this.

Speaker 2: 20:21

So, destroying.

Speaker 1: 20:22

Yes, So like an example for me, if the video doesn't have like times two, I have to listen to everything at either time and a half or times two, because my mind is so fast. If I'm not, like I'm already distracted, I'm thinking about something else. So that helps me, like sit down and focus on what's so. That course doesn't have like a times, you know, a times one and a half option. It's going to be almost impossible for me to finish it.

Speaker 2: 20:46

Where I also hate it when they hide, like they hide the amount of time it's going to take. So you press play and you're like how long am I going to be sat here for? Is this a three hour video or a three minute video? I can't tell. That's not good.

Speaker 1: 20:58

And if not, you know it's not. I just I just need to know so I can organize my time. Yeah, So there's little elements that you don't think about, that you're like you're making a decision and it's kind of like, eh, no one cares. But you really have to think about the personality types and think about little things like this, like things that people You might not notice. I don't know. Like, have you ever listened to a video? at times to speed, like, do you do that regularly?

Speaker 2: 21:26

Always, and in fact at the beginning of all of my courses, i do a little video which basically says this is how you do it And I speak fast a lot of the time anyway, but if I'm droning on or you know about this stuff already, feel free to speed it up. Like, this is how you do it. It's really important because when I found that out it was a game changer. I was like I'm going to say something.

Speaker 1: 21:44

Yes time, Oh, and I can actually watch things and I can actually, because if it's slow my mind gets distracted and then I got to watch it like three times to understand what's going on, you know. So, yes, these are like little tricks, little ways, and I didn't even think about that as gamification, like you're just making it easier for your brain. You know, it's not that complicated, just anything that makes something easier for your brain, i guess could be.

Speaker 2: 22:08

You can gamify yourself as well to get more stuff done. So the examples that you gave are great examples, and I've done the same with getting in the gamification reading, because gamification books are dreadfully boring.

Speaker 2: 22:18

They're either written by like academics, so they're like really long winded and hard to understand, or they're written by gamers, so they're really full of jargon. So yeah, i gamified myself. I set up a chart with like exactly how many pages I was going to read each day And I would tick it off like a small five year old. But you know that reward thing is important And you build these things in to motivate yourself And it works. Like you put in the diary silly little things like that. That's essentially a sticker chart which you do for five year olds. If it works for five year olds, why are we not doing it for ourselves? Like, why do we stop doing these fun things to help ourselves get things done that are boring?

Speaker 1: 22:58

Yes, like writing gratitude, I write. One of the things that I advise everyone is you need to write down three things every morning. It seems dumb, it seems simple, it seems too easy to work, but every morning, write down three things that you're grateful for, and then at night you write down three wins. What do we tell little kids to do? when they get there in the morning, the teachers reframe them. Write down three things you want to accomplish today And then at the end of the day, three things that you want.

Speaker 1: 23:22

Did you get a sticker? You know, did you get a happy face? And yeah, we can absolutely do those things. Nobody has to know that. You know you're giving yourself stickers. You could have it like in your closet or something and then just give yourself stickers. But in a post that I wrote the other day, i was like you know, in a TikTok I made, i was like you write your wins at the end of every day And then at the end of the year you look at that notebook. Because at the end of the year you look back and you're like I didn't do anything this year. And when you actually write it down, you have like a whole mountain of things And you're like Oh my God, i got so many things done. So when you're feeling really bad too, you could go back and be like Oh my God, look at all this shit that I accomplished. And I didn't even realize those things were gamification. That's so cool.

Speaker 2: 24:03

This is the thing when you start talking about it, you're like, oh my gosh, it is everywhere And there's a lot of stuff that people are going to find. They don't even know that they're doing it There's I mean, there's a lot to it there is, but there's also some, some parts of it that you're doing it without thinking anyway. So why not try and be a bit more targeted about it and put it into your business, put it into any area that you're struggling with? I mean, obviously, i specialize in my particular areas, but you can add gamification to anything that is boring.

Speaker 2: 24:31

Basically, i would say, steer clear from adding it into things that are already fun, because so, for example, let's say, i was to say, if I hear the hoop every day for the next 30 days, i'll give myself a bar of chocolate. I'll hear it for 30 days, i'll give myself a bar of chocolate. I'm like, right, i've got a habit now, because you know, somebody somewhere once said 30 days is a habit. I'm not sure it's true, but there we go. So I've got a habit now, so I don't need to do the chocolate anymore. And I'm like, well, why would I hear the hoop every day, like I'm not going to get chocolate anymore And there's no reason for me to do it. So what I've done is I've demotivated myself from doing something I already enjoyed by adding a reward.

Speaker 1: 25:05

So like don't.

Speaker 2: 25:06

Don't try and motivate yourself to do things you already like, because it takes away the fun And then all of a sudden you feel like you need a reward to keep doing it. So don't do that. Just look at things that are boring, that are hard, that you're like putting off. Try and gamify those things.

Speaker 1: 25:24

Love it. That's it. That's a really good point. Like you mentioned working out too, yeah, you don't have to.

Speaker 1: 25:31

You don't have to like run on a track, you know you don't have to you don't have to do boring things, like I taught myself aerial yoga because I wanted to hang upside down. I just feel like it's awesome, and I wanted to work out and I wanted to be fun. So we went and got mountain bikes and I started doing aerial yoga because I was like I can't, i'm not doing a gym, i'm not doing these home workouts, like I can do some yoga, but then it's Like every day I can't do this. So you know, like I gamified even, like working out is like let's go have some fun. And then you know you're out there like stand up, paddle boarding and like I'm working out right, but it's. I'm not counting reps, i'm not doing, i'm exhausted at the end of the day, but it's fun, you know. So, yeah, i love it. I love gamification. I'm so excited about this. So How do we stay in touch with you?

Speaker 2: 26:14

So we are Kimber digital everywhere, so my name is felt weird. It's k. I am the a Kimber digital on, so any platform you like not actually on tip-talk, thinking about it, but Instagram and Facebook on my main two, but we are on Twitter and LinkedIn as well. If you are interested in this kind of stuff and you'd like to learn a bit more about how gamification could be Useful for you in terms of things like courses, launches, social media, we have a free quiz. So if you go to the game plan quiz, calm it says on there it takes three minutes, but it's multiple choice and so it can take as long as little time as you like and At the end, depending on what you chose, and you get the PDF with tips and advice on How it can be helping you in your business.

Speaker 1: 26:57

I love it, perfect. So I was gonna ask you for, like you know, you're freebie, but that's it, so go to quiz. Yes, yes, that sounds amazing. I love how you like you, you talk the talk and you walk the walk right. So, like your freebie is a Quinn, just like you recommended to us earlier. I love it. That's so cool.

Speaker 2: 27:16

Any last minute tips before we sign off here Um, i do have another quick free thing that I should probably mention. It's not yet, but it might be by the time this goes live. So it's a Facebook group called the business game and it's not gonna be like other business groups. It is going to be gamified, obviously. So if you're in any way interested in any other stuff or if you just want to see how we gamify it, definitely request a join will. Let everyone in all at once. I would be there in terms of a, a final tip or a final thing. Let me have a think. I Think focus on the two wise. I mean, i've already gone over this a little bit, but I think it's really important. So, before you do anything to do with gamification, think why am I doing this? What is the business objective? and think why should somebody care? Why should they stop the scroll? Why should they stop their day to do this thing? And if you can answer those two wise, then you're gonna have a much better gamification project.

Speaker 1: 28:13

I Love it. That's, that's solid. That's rock solid. Not just doing things to do them, but actually having yeah, that's the thing I just. I've had so many meetings, but why are you doing this? right, like I did this, but why? what's the point? what comes after it and there's no answer. I'm like that's why it's not working. Guys, all right, this has been absolutely incredible. Thank you so much, kimba. We're definitely gonna have you back. I'll definitely be hanging out in your group. We're We're friends now. Like we're just gonna be hanging out together And I will see you. I will see you in cyberspace, i guess. Thank you for having me. It's been fun. Yes, absolutely Bye.