S2E11: 'The Realities of a Career in Entertainment' | (Dwight Smith, Veteran Television Producer and Ball State Graduate)

Dwight Smith is an innovative producer of reality television shows in Hollywood. He’s also a proud graduate who, in his own words, grew up as a “Ball State baby.” 

In this episode, Dwight talks about how our University fostered his love for the entertainment industry and how one of his favorite professors helped him launch his career in Hollywood.

Dwight also describes the evolution of the production company Mission Control Media, which he co-owns with the same business partner he’s worked with for more than 15 years. In that time, their company has created multiple hit programs for networks including SyFy, NBC, and Netflix. The newest show they’re about to launch is a home renovation challenge for HGTV that ties into one of the most anticipated film releases of 2023. 

If you enjoy this episode, please leave a review to support the show. 

Transcript

[GEOFF MEARNS]

Today, I welcome Dwight Smith to my podcast. Dwight is a graduate of our telecommunications department who then embarked on a career as an innovative producer of reality television shows in Hollywood. Today, I'm going to talk to him about his experience at Ball State and about his successful career in the entertainment industry. We'll also talk about some of the exciting projects that Dwight's company, it's a company called Mission Control Media, we're going to talk about some of the exciting projects that the company has in development. One of those projects is a new series for HGTV, and it's a series that is tied into what will likely be one of the biggest films of the summer. So Dwight, welcome and thank you for joining me on the podcast.

[DWIGHT SMITH]

Thank you. It's an honor to be here.

[GEOFF MEARNS]

Well, I know you've listened to a couple of the podcasts and as people who tune in faithfully know, I begin each episode by asking something about my guest childhood. I understand you grew up right here in Muncie. So tell me a little bit about growing up in Muncie and about your family.

[DWIGHT SMITH]

I did grow up in Muncie. Both of my parents are Ball State grads. They met at Ball State. They began dating at Ball State and decided to settle here in Muncie. So I am a Ball State baby. I was born at Ball Hospital. And I always tell people that one of the earliest pieces of music I can remember hearing is the Ball State Fight song.

My dad would always take me to Ball State  basketball games and football games growing up, so it was always in my backyard and in my blood and something that has been a part of my life from the very beginning. My sister, I have one sibling, also went to Ball State. She has three kids. Two of her kids went to Ball State. So we are a three generation Ball State family. Hopefully that will that will continue, there will be a fourth and fifth. We were a super close family and, you know, we were very tight, traveled a lot. We traveled around this country going to national parks and we went to 48 of the continental United States on camping trips everywhere, all over the place. We just missed Hawaii and Alaska. But other than that, we were a very close family that had a great time. And yeah, grew up here in Muncie.

[GEOFF MEARNS]

Well, and as we talked about earlier this afternoon, walking over, I had the good fortune to meet your mother, Elaine. I meet her on several occasions at Ball State  football games. And I was saddened to learn that she had recently passed. Why don't you tell us a little bit more about your mother? A special woman.

[DWIGHT SMITH]

Yeah. Thank you for asking. My mother was a very, very kind and generous person. That was basically how she lived her life. She was an educator. She was very active in her church. She was a Sunday school teacher for over 50 years, and she was very involved in a lot of charities, a lot of volunteer work. She went on multiple mission trips and she really did just believe in that and fulfilled that kind of to her core, in terms of just wanting to make the world a better place.

And beyond that, one thing I can tell you about her that I think you would probably appreciate President Mearns is she was a ping pong champion. She before she went to Ball State, she went to another college and she was her college champion in both singles and doubles. And then she taught me how to play and sort of infused me with her love of the game.

[GEOFF MEARNS]

I had not heard that before. We could have gone to the basement of Bracken House and tested each other’s skills. 

[DWIGHT SMITH]

She would have loved that. Yeah, she would have loved that. I still remember how exciting it was to me the first time I was actually ever able to beat her. Yeah.

[GEOFF MEARNS]

So tell me a bit more also about your parents, your mother and your father. Did they encourage your interest in the entertainment industry when you were growing up and while you were at Ball State?

[DWIGHT SMITH]

My parents were very practical and sensible people. At the same time, they always encouraged my sister and me to pursue our passion and interest, which I appreciated. I was a kid who always wanted to work in the entertainment industry. I don't know where that came from, but I did. It just was a part of me from the very beginning.

So I was always the kid who was doing shows in the backyard and in the basement. And I was also a magician growing up, so I would perform at parties and they would take me around everywhere before I had a driver's license to perform at all my magic shows and even took me around the country to magic conventions. So we would do that a lot. So they definitely encouraged my interest in entertainment. But getting back to the practical and sensible side, when I first started in college, I originally wanted to be an actor and so I was going to be a theater major. And they said, ‘That's fine, we appreciate and respect that, but if you're going to do that, we would like you to actually have a second major as well, something that may be as a fallback plan.’

So I decided to pursue radio and television or telecommunications. And while I was here at Ball State, that kind of became what was my real passion. And I kind of leaned into that and I ended up reducing theater to a minor and pursued the other angle. And it's because of them kind of supporting me, but also sort of pushing me to pursue some other options and I ended up stumbling into that.

[GEOFF MEARNS]

Well, it certainly sounds like you were blessed with wonderful parents.

[DWIGHT SMITH]

I was very fortunate.

[GEOFF MEARNS]

So sometimes I often hear that people say they're not interested in attending the college or the university that's right in their backyard. But that wasn't the case for you. Why did you decide to stay in Muncie and go to Ball State?

[DWIGHT SMITH]

Part of it is I've always had an affinity for Ball State. Like I said, it's always been part of my life. It's always been something I felt connected to. But the two areas that I was interested in, theater and media, Ball State had really strong programs, and so it just made a lot of sense. 

[GEOFF MEARNS]

Yeah … So then building on that, I want to talk about how your education here at Ball State set you up for a successful career. So if you could talk about that, but also if, in responding, if there was a particular faculty member or staff member who had a significant influence on your studying here at Ball State and in your career that you're enjoying today?

[DWIGHT SMITH]

Absolutely. In terms of Ball State setting me up for success, you know, when I joined in and became part of the telecommunications department, I kind of finally found felt like I had found my passion, the people that had the similar interests. It was really great to just connect and kind of find that community of people who are equally passionate about media and all of that.

So that to me was very exciting and the department was really strong and had a great bunch of professors. There are two professors that immediately jump to mine, both from the Department of Telecommunications. One of them is Dave Smith. Dave was an amazing professor. He had a very warm, paternal, nurturing quality. In fact, a lot of the students called him Daddy Dave at the time because they just had such an effect.

[GEOFF MEARNS]

Even to his face?

[DWIGHT SMITH]

Yes, absolutely. And he took that as a … as a name of honor. I mean, he really did. He was just such a good person who really cared deeply about all his all his students and really inspired you to do your best and to be your best. And he was somebody you wanted to make proud too. You wanted to go off and really kind of feel like you had made him proud. And I stayed in touch with him for years, and unfortunately, he passed last year. So that was sad to hear that. But I'm so happy that, you know, he had the impact in my life. And I continue to think about him and be grateful to him to this day, because he really did play a significant role in my life.

He helped me get my internship, which started my career. And yeah, he just meant a lot to me. And then the other professor is Nancy Carlson. Nancy ultimately became the chair of the Department of Telecommunications. Nancy, to me, was always so … she had such a fun, engaging, infectious personality and way in her classes that she just inspired you to be the best. And I'm a competitive person by nature. And so, I just wrote I felt like I rose to the occasion because I felt like she really kind of challenged me and everybody in the best way possible to rise up to be our best. And she's somebody else that I've been in touch with intermittently over the years as well.

[GEOFF MEARNS]

So you graduated from Ball State with your bachelor's degree in 1987. And it's my understanding that literally the very next day after Commencement, you were on your way to California. What do you remember about that moment? That time? Were you excited? Were you anxious? Both?

[DWIGHT SMITH]

I would say all of that, yes. The interesting thing about it is I literally did leave the next day after graduation. I had a U-Haul hooked up to the back of the car and I took off and drove to California. I only made it to Illinois before the car broke down. It broke down in Bloomington, Illinois. I still remember this … next to a bar called The Scuttlebutt and got stuck there, had to do some car repairs, but got that behind me and ended up making it out to L.A. And yeah, I was excited. I was anxious … all of that. It was, I think, culture shock coming from Muncie, going to Los Angeles. A very different world, a very different energy, very different sort of dynamic. But, um, it took me a while to warm up to it. I think somebody had given me some very good advice and they said, ‘Give it six months. Make sure you give it at least six months to figure out if you think this is right for you. You know, at first it may be kind of difficult and rough and you'll it'll sort out by then.’ And they were absolutely right. I think the first three months for me were challenging. I mean, I didn't know a lot of people out there. I knew basically no one. But at the end of three months, my internship was up. I got a job and things kind of turned around and I found my place and my friends and started my roots out there. And yeah, I've loved it ever since.

[GEOFF MEARNS]

So I won't ask you a follow up question about The Scuttlebutt. I understand that what happens at The Scuttlebutt stays at The Scuttlebutt. 

[DWIGHT SMITH]

I did not go in. I did not go in.

[GEOFF MEARNS]

That was prudent. So tell us a little bit more about those early days in Los Angeles. I think you shared earlier that Professor Smith helped you land an internship straight out of college working for a soap opera, General Hospital, one of the most famous soap operas of all time. Tell us, is that correct? And tell us a little bit more about.

[DWIGHT SMITH]

That is correct. In the eighties, when I was at Ball State, soap operas were huge. I mean, not so much now, but at the time they dominated the airwaves. Lots of college students were very into it, obsessed with it. They were just a very different type of programming at that time in terms of their popularity. So I had wanted to be a writer and was interested in the ability to be able to tell people's stories over a long period of time.

And so I had decided in college I wanted to be a soap opera writer. A bit of an unusual, you know, job aspiration. But that was my that was what I wanted to do. So I spoke to Dave about it, Dave Smith, and he said he would work with me to help me get an internship on a soap opera.

So we focused on General Hospital. He had actually contacted the show on my behalf, and the answer that he was given was that they would only accept interns from USC or UCLA. So he came back and told me that and said, “Sorry, I guess … I guess we tried.” And at that point I thought, I do not accept that answer. That is not something that I'm going to take. And don't tell me that just because I didn't go to UCLA or USC, I can't get an internship there. That makes no sense.” So I thought, not only am I going to get an internship on a soap opera, it's going to be General Hospital and we're going to figure this out.

[GEOFF MEARNS]

This is that competitive part of you?

[DWIGHT SMITH]

It absolutely is. “No” to me is a very motivated, motivating response. It really is. It makes me rise to prove people wrong. So that was what I was intending to do. And I got busy and figured out a connection that I and Dave could pursue, sort of coming in from a side angle and was able to make it happen.

So we figured it out. And not only did that happen, but Ball State wanted us for our internship to have a multiple day internship. They wanted it to be over multiple days, not just coming in for an afternoon. So they actually cleared the schedule for me and they had other people that were supposed to be in there who kind of got relegated to lesser roles. And I … because of the access we ended up going through to it through somebody we contacted, they kind of really rolled out the carpet for me, which was kind of amazing. And then after three months, they created a job for me. So I was hired after that and ended up working on the show for four years and worked my way up and ultimately did become a writer on the show.

So that was a very fun and exciting experience. And then I went on to write on Days of Our Lives for a year, and then after that decided I wanted to get out of soaps and maybe explore some other opportunities in the entertainment business.

[GEOFF MEARNS]

Maybe we'll talk about that in just a moment. But I understand a few years after that opportunity that Professor Smith helped create, you had a full circle moment where you got to repay that favor by helping out his granddaughter. Tell us about that.

[DWIGHT SMITH]

Yeah, absolutely. That was something that still makes me so happy. I was speaking to Dave on the phone because we'd be in touch from time to time. And he was telling me that his granddaughter was interested in moving to Los Angeles and wanted to know if I would just have a conversation with her. If I would get on the phone with her and just kind of give her some advice and guidance in terms of what it was like to live in Los Angeles.

So I said, absolutely. So I got on the phone with her. Shortly after that, we had a conversation and I was really impressed with her. She seemed super sharp, really, really great, committed, and just really like somebody that had a lot of potential. And I at that time had a show that we were staffing up soon …  Hollywood Game Night, which is a game show that we produced on NBC, and I said to her, How serious are you about coming to Los Angeles?

And she said, Really serious. And I said, if you can be here in two weeks, I'll offer you a job. So she said, I'll do it. So she had to immediately get her life in order, get her car shipped out, get everything sorted out and get out to Los Angeles within two weeks, which she did. And she was an absolute rock star.

She ended up … everybody loved her. And she has done so well for herself since we have stayed in touch. In fact, when I get back to L.A., we're going to be having lunch and meeting up and actually toasting her grandfather as sort of in honor of him. But she's done so well for herself, and it makes me so happy to have given back to Dave, who gave to me, but also to have helped her and to really kind of helped launch her career.

[GEOFF MEARNS]

Well, it reminds me that in our—we define the enduring value of gratitude as including expressing appreciation to others, but demonstrating appreciation through our actions. And certainly that's a that's a perfect example of how we and why we define gratitude that way.

So going back to your career, what—you spent five years writing for these two soap operas. What did you enjoy about it and was there an aspect of that part of your career that was either frustrating or not sufficiently fulfilling?

[DWIGHT SMITH]

What I enjoyed about it, as I said earlier, was the ability to tell different characters’ stories over a long period of time. To take these characters and really kind of get in-depth and see them through a lot of different aspects of their life and really kind of explore a lot of different creative challenges. And I will say General Hospital and also Days of Our Lives, both of those shows are a little more out there in terms of some of their storylines that we're willing to pursue.

So there was Days of Our Lives had a possession storyline, General Hospital had an alien come. I mean, there's definitely some creative interpretations on stories. So it was a fun playground to be in for a minute. It's also a grind. I mean, you're doing five hours of television a week. It's the equivalent of doing two and a half feature films every week. It's a lot. So it's a great training ground, but it can also be a grind and exhausting. And I think, you know, I loved my experience there, but it really did feel, when I ended it, like it was time to kind of move on and pursue some other opportunities.

[GEOFF MEARNS]

Build on those experiences.

[DWIGHT SMITH]

Yeah, absolutely.

[GEOFF MEARNS]

So it was around that time that you met Michael Ogbeean? Is that correct?

[DWIGHT SMITH]

Agbabian. 

[GEOFF MEARNS]

Thank you. And along with Michael, you created a business that really would change the course and direction of your professional life. Tell us about that relationship and how it developed.

[DWIGHT SMITH]

Michael and I were assistants at New Line Cinema, the film studio. And this was after I left soaps. I was trying to sort of reinvent myself and figure out what to do. So I was an assistant for a moment in the acquisitions film department at New Line Cinema. Michael was there and he and I just had a very similar sensibility in terms of the types of entertainment that we were drawn towards.

And we started just on our own developing and creating some television shows and we didn't know what we were doing. We just were doing things that we thought were fun and that we would watch and Michael was sort of fearless and he would just randomly call people and say, “Hey, we want we've got the show idea. Can we come in and pitch it to you?”

And so next thing you know, he'd call me and say, “Okay, I've got a meeting set up for us next week.” And I'm just like, “What? What? What's going on here?” So we would go out and pitch our shows and people were buying them. We started getting people to take our shows. And this is right before reality television had taken off and the things that we were coming up with were reality shows.

They were game shows, they were things that were sort of in that venue. So I don't think that he and I ever necessarily set out to say we're going to have this long-term producing partnership and that we're going to start a company together. But that's where things have led and that was in the mid-nineties. So we've been working together for a very long, long time now.

[GEOFF MEARNS]

And so before you created your company, what were some of the shows that that you created as a freelancer?

[DWIGHT SMITH]

Well, we didn't create a lot of the shows that we worked on. Some of the ones that we created, unfortunately, either didn't get made or they you know, they didn't they didn't last that long. That's unfortunately the nature of the beast. But we did produce season one of Project Runway, we worked on that. We did Last Comic Standing, multiple seasons of that.

We produced 315 episodes of Weakest Link, the game show. So we did a lot of that. We did a version of I've Got a Secret, which was the old game show from the fifties. That's one of those formats that keeps coming back and coming back. That was a really fun show. We did a lot of game shows and a lot of competitions and things like that.

[GEOFF MEARNS]

So you and Michael created Mission Control Media, your new company, you created that in 2008. Tell us that transition from kind of working as a freelancer to actually creating a company.

[DWIGHT SMITH]

Yeah, I think, I think at the moment … I have to say actually, if I knew now what I knew then, I don't know that we would have done it. It's a very, very difficult task. But I think at the time we had the right combination of ambition and naivete in where — [laughs]

[GEOFF MEARNS]

That’s actually sometimes a very successful combination.

[DWIGHT SMITH]

I think so. I think so, at least at that time, for us it was. We knew that we were driven enough to try to tackle it, but there was enough things we didn't know that, you know, maybe we should have. But, you know, there's not really a training course for starting a reality television production company. You kind of learn on the job. 

So we have been surrounded by a lot of really good people and advisors who have helped us through the process. But you definitely have a lot of larger picture concerns beyond just producing a television show. You're doing that as well, but suddenly now you're in charge of a staff, you're dealing with HR. You're dealing with, you know, benefits for your staff. You're dealing with legal situations and you know everything. So it's facilities, you know, all of that suddenly comes under the headline of company owner. And it's … you get you get all the good and the bad. So that's been a challenge.

[GEOFF MEARNS]

You're working with creative people like yourself and then professionals like accountants and lawyers and HR.

[DWIGHT SMITH]

Yeah. And you're expected as a company owner to be an expert on all of it, to know everything, you know? So it's definitely a challenge and a wide array of specialties that you have to embrace.

[GEOFF MEARNS]

So it's quite an accomplishment that you and Michael, that company has now been in existence for 15 years. Why don't you share with us some of the programs, some of the series, that your company—that you and he have produced. Ones that you're particularly proud of and that our listeners may have heard of? 

[DWIGHT SMITH]

Sure. We were so fortunate when we started our company, we did not have investors. We didn't put a lot of our own money into it. We had somebody that actually had several years before had said to me she would give us free office space at some point. She said it at a party and I didn't know if she—and she had been, I think, had a little a few things to drink. And I didn't if she was ever going to remember it. But when we started our company, I called her and she said, Absolutely, I remember that I will be true to my word. So we had free office space. We started our company. And, you know, it's like here we are in a room basically hoping for the best. And we got a call from Syfy asking us if we would be willing to do a show around special effects makeup.

And so we created a show called Face Off, and that was the very first show we ever did through our company. And Face Off is a competition show for special effects makeup artists. So it's the people who create all the movie magic with monsters and aliens and fairy princesses and, you know, all the beautiful and ugly things that you see in movies that are so imaginative and creative. So it was a creative competition for those people. And the show went 13 seasons. It's the longest running show we've ever had. It's the first show we did. So it was an amazing sort of way to launch our company. We won the Critics Choice Award for Best Reality Competition, which for us was a huge honor because we beat The Voice, we beat America's Got Talent, we beat Dancing with the Stars, all the big shows we beat.

And so that was a very satisfying and exciting moment for us on that show. We also created a show called Hollywood Game Night, which I mentioned before. Jane Lynch was the host of it. We did seven seasons of that on NBC. We just had a show that premiered earlier this year on Netflix called Pressure Cooker, which is one that I'm particularly proud of.

It is a competition for chefs on Netflix. Very happy with the way that one turned out. And we've done a lot of other shows, too. One of the things I'm really proud about for us as a company is that we have a very diverse array of shows we’ve done. A lot of production companies basically get pigeonholed as a company that will only do home renovation shows or only cooking shows or only, you know, true crime shows, and that it's very hard for them to break out of that box. They just sort of get pigeonholed. We, as a company, I'm thrilled to say, have not had that happen to us. So we do game shows. We've done a jail docuseries for Netflix. We did an animated show for Netflix. We do cooking shows. We've done dance shows. We have a home renovation show coming out soon. We've just done a lot. So that's something that that I'm really proud of as a company.

[GEOFF MEARNS]

So what is it like when you and Michael and your company are negotiating with huge broadcasters like NBC or now Netflix? How do you manage that relationship? And do you feel well-positioned to engage in those negotiations?

[DWIGHT SMITH]

Yeah, we have attorneys and agents who handle those negotiations for us. So thankfully, we let them be the heavies and we, you know, can be the good guys who sit back and maintain the relationship with the creative side of those networks. Um, and usually there is a fairly standard template for those types of deals. However, over time, based on your relationship, your track record, you can continue to try to increase and improve your position and then you have a precedent that you can continue to build on. So that is something that just takes years of just, you know, working those relationships, establishing those precedents and building upon it. So every time we do a deal, we hope to make it a little bit better than the one before. But there usually is a pretty standard template which you start at. And of course, they try to not necessarily always give you the best terms, but that's why you have a team in place who go in there and fight for you and try to finagle better terms and get what they can.

[GEOFF MEARNS]

Right? They try to stick with their template.

[DWIGHT SMITH]

Yes. And they also, too, because they work with other clients as well, they know “Well, you gave this to these clients. So we're going to ask for it for these clients.” So they also have that inside information based on the nature of all the other deals they're doing that they can apply it to your deal.

[GEOFF MEARNS]

Yeah. So you've got another series, a competition series for HGTV. Is that another new series? What's that about?

[DWIGHT SMITH]

[laughs] That is a really interesting show for us. We've never done a home renovation show before, and that is its own sort of special challenge because you're dealing with contractors, you're dealing with tight deadlines and supply chains and all of that. It's a whole sort of unique challenge. The show is actually tied into a big movie coming out this summer. And it's an unusual show for HGTV. It is called Barbie Dreamhouse Challenge, and it is going to be us building or renovating a home into a full size, functioning Barbie Dream House. So it is over-the-top. It's crazy, it's whimsical, it is imaginative and kooky and fun. And, you know, everything about this show should bring a smile to your face. It's just—it's a lot of fun.

[GEOFF MEARNS]

So when we launched this podcast series a couple of years ago, I'm not sure I ever thought a guest would utter the phrase the Barbie Dream House Challenge on my podcast. That is a first.

[DWIGHT SMITH]

[laughs] I'm happy to have fulfilled that.

[GEOFF MEARNS]

Yeah, looking forward to it. So you've made Los Angeles your home now for many years, but you come back to Muncie and back to Ball State in part to visit your family, but also because you are very actively involved with the university, with the Ball State Alumni Association and now the Ball State University Foundation. Why do you do it?

[DWIGHT SMITH]

You know, there's a couple of reasons. I have always, as I said early, have always felt a connection to Ball State. It truly has been a part of my life from the very beginning. And I'm also from Muncie, too. So I think anything that is good for Ball State is usually good for Muncie. I think those kind of two go hand in hand, and I think it's important to give back.

I think it's important to try to make things even better for the people that are coming after me. I mean, I had a great experience here, and I would love for everybody to have that experience—or an even better experience. So, you know, I have so enjoyed my time reconnecting with the university and really kind of feeling that sense of pride and learning so much about what's going on back here. So I feel like it is—everybody always thanks me for what I do for the university. I appreciate what the university did for me and also take so much pride in hearing what's happening back here now. It's very exciting.

[GEOFF MEARNS]

Yeah, well, it's gratifying to hear that you find it rewarding to stay engaged. And in addition to serving on the Alumni Council and the Foundation Board, when you come back to campus, you also engage with our students. You speak to them during visits in the classroom and to groups of students who come out to L.A.. What kind of advice do you offer to students or young graduates?

[DWIGHT SMITH]

One of the things that a lot of them have asked me is about coming to Los Angeles. They're considering whether that's right for them. And I always say to them that they should 100% try it because then if it doesn't work out for them, they can come back. It's absolutely something that they can try and figure out.

I'm not trying to say it should be right for them, but you never want to have regrets and you never want to be later in your life thinking what had happened if I had tried that? And before you have a lot of roots put down, a lot of ties to different obligations or things like that, after you graduate, that is the perfect time to try. As soon as you graduate, to go out and try it. And if it doesn't work, it's not for you, it's not for everybody, then then come back or go somewhere else. But I always say, give it a try. I mean, absolute give it a try. Don't just think about it. Actually do it.

[GEOFF MEARNS]

Right. So talking about your volunteer work and your engagement and mentoring of students and graduates, it's kind of a nice transition to my final question, and this is a question I ask all of my guests. So as you know, here at our university, everything we do is guided by our enduring values. These are the values that are represented by our iconic statute of Beneficence. We walked by it this afternoon coming here.

Beneficence is really a tangible symbol. It's a reminder of our mission, our mission to empower our students to have fulfilling careers and to lead meaningful lives. Beneficence also means, at its core, the quality of doing good, doing good for other people through service and philanthropy. So, Dwight, my last question is what does beneficence mean to you?

[DWIGHT SMITH]

Beneficence, to me, is such a beautiful concept. To me, it's super simple. Be good to each other. I think just, be good to each other. And also, I feel like it's a two way street because I think not only is important to give back and to give to one another, but it's also important to be open to receiving kindness and generosity.

I think some times people may be a bit hesitant. They're a little proud and they don't necessarily want to receive, but I think that that's a beautiful thing too, to be open to receiving kindness and generosity when someone wants to extend it to you. And I feel like it should be an ongoing 360 cycle that people are constantly receiving and giving, and it should be all of our jobs to basically be doing that with each other. And like I said, just be good to each other.

[GEOFF MEARNS]

Well, thank you for those insights. Thank you for joining me for this conversation. And thank you also for your service to our university and your engagement with our students and our graduates.

[DWIGHT SMITH]

Thank you. It is my pleasure to be here. Thank you so much.