145 Coaching Client Spotlight: Lisa Carter-Bawa, PhD, MPH, APRN, ANP-C, FAAN

With nearly two decades of clinical experience as an adult nurse practitioner, Dr. Lisa Carter-Bawa (formerly Carter-Harris) is a distinguished behavioral scientist. Currently serving as the Director of the Cancer Prevention Precision Control Institute at the Center for Discovery & Innovation (CDI) at Hackensack Meridian Health in New Jersey, she also holds leadership roles at the Georgetown Lombardi Comprehensive Cancer Center consortium. Dr. Carter-Bawa's research focuses on the intricate factors influencing decision-making in lung cancer screening, with a particular emphasis on understanding the impact of stigma.  

Her advocacy for incorporating the patient perspective in lung cancer screening has been supported by funding from organizations such as the National Cancer Institute and the American Lung Association. Beyond her research endeavors, she actively contributes to various professional bodies, including chairing the Stigma & Nihilism Task Group of the American Cancer Society’s National Lung Cancer Roundtable and serving on the Editorial Board of Nursing Research. Additionally, she is involved in executive roles on boards and committees dedicated to enhancing cancer prevention, early detection, and reducing inequities in care at both academic and national levels and is also an alumnus of our Get That Grant® coaching program! 

Listen in as she shares how coaching has helped her break free from the hamster wheel, redefine success, align her work with her purpose and 

• The impact of coaching on redefining success for yourself and breaking free from the hamster wheel mentality. 
• The importance of defining one's purpose and how it transforms your perspective and decision-making. 
• Why shifting from external validation to internal gratification, leads to better integrity and a sense of pride in her work. 
• The difference between success being a title versus an integrated, purpose-driven experience. 

 Loved this convo? Please go find Dr. Carter-Bawa on Twitter/X @drCarterBawa, on LinkedIn and show her some love! 

And if you'd like to learn more foundational career navigation concepts for women of color in academic medicine and public health, sign up for our KD Coaching Foundations Series: www.kemidoll.com/foundations. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:00

Listen, mic drop. Like I tell the people, don't listen to me, listen to them. Because it's true. And it's like, before you get here, it feels unimaginable. What do you mean you could just make decisions based on your purpose and then just leave everything else? It's the only thing that's getting you to the integration. It's actually the only thing that's creating this successful experience. And ultimately, because at its root, it is reclaiming your own power and agency over your life. You know, not to get too deep, but like at the end of the day, it's like, are you living this life? Is it yours? Yeah. Or is it literally all of theirs? And ultimately, don't you think that that is your sign that you've grown? Yeah. Where you're like, okay, if I needed a sign from above, from the universe, from God, whatever we call on, you know, that is my sign of growth that I realized that and totally walked differently through the space of my life. Hello, hello. You are listening to your unapologetic career. Being a woman of color faculty in academic medicine who wants to make a real difference with your career can be tough. Listen, these systems are not built for us, but that doesn't mean we can't make them work for us. In each episode, I'll be taking a deep dive into one core growth strategy so you can gain confidence and effectiveness in pursuing the dream career you worked so hard to achieve. All you have to do is tune in to your unapologetic career with me, your host, Kemi Dole, physician, surgeon, researcher, coach, and career strategist for an always authentic, sometimes a little raw, but unapologetically empowering word. I keep it real for you because I want you to win. I don't know about you, but for me, whenever I'm trying to learn something new or integrate something new in my life, I really need to see it written down. I need a framework to understand how to make it come alive for me and also so I can adapt it to make it work for me. And that's what I was thinking about when I started writing the KD Coach Foundation newsletters way back in 2019. I spent about 18 months writing these twice a month, thinking about all the ways in which I could communicate really clearly and honestly, briefly about some career shifting tactics, strategies, and perspectives that can truly change people's experience of their career. Now, let's be honest. Some of these were great. Some of them were good. And some of them were just a really good try. But what I've done is compiled them into a digestible format of all of the great ones. I want to be able to keep this knowledge going. I got so many messages over and over again, Thank you so much. can sign up at www.kemidoll.com. Once you sign up, you will get one of these top tier, best performing, most cited newsletters from that period of time in your inbox every two weeks. I share these because I know, honestly, a lot of people are never going to sign up for Get That Grant. A lot of people are not going to be able to access the coaching we do because we're unapologetically focused on women of color faculty in academic medicine. But hey, I still want to help our entire field. I want to start a revolution. So if you haven't checked it out yet, definitely sign up at www.kemidol.com slash foundations to check out our career foundations series. Hello, hello, folks. Welcome back to the show. It's Kemi here, of course. I'm not alone today, which is really lovely because I kind of had a rough day, y'all. So I am really excited to be in dialogue with somebody other than myself. If this was a solo episode, I would just spend the whole time talking about how hard it is to be a parent. And like, that's not fun. So instead, we're going to have a fascinating conversation with a person that you are also going, you're going to end this episode and be like, I just want to hear more from her. And I just want to let you know that that is my reaction too. I mean, She is so dynamic. Her work is so interesting, but also just the way that she shows up in all spaces and how much value she brings to all spaces is so intriguing and enticing. And so I am super excited to bring to the podcast episode today, one of our Katie Coach clients and members of our community, Dr. Lisa Carter-Bawa. Welcome. Thank you. I'm not sure how to start after that intro. Well, you can start with telling the good people about your area of expertise, your specialty area, where you work, and what good work are you doing in the world, Lisa? Yeah, so I'm a behavioral scientist, and currently I'm the inaugural director of the Cancer Prevention Precision Control Institute at Hackensack Meridian Health, which is a long name in New Jersey. But I also hold a second hat as the director of cancer community outreach and engagement at our cancer center. I think what I consider the good work that I'm doing in this world is I design, test, and implement tailored interventions that are delivered upstream prior to a person engaging with the health system that ultimately works to equitably bring everyone around the table about complex cancer screening decisions. I'm particularly drawn to lung cancer, but all cancers. But I do this in a community setting, either in our African-American faith-based communities or by leveraging social media platforms to reach people in the community and intervene. I love it. And Lisa, correct me if I'm totally wrong, but Do you also have clinical training as a nurse or did I make that up? You didn't make it up. Okay. Yeah. So I'm a nurse practitioner. Skip something. Okay. Yeah. So I usually tell people I always, and I do, I feel like I did my career backwards because I'm a nurse practitioner. I've been a nurse practitioner for over 20 years and I own my own practice. Yes. For several years before I went back to go and get my PhD and my colleagues were like, don't you remember? We hated stats in grad school. Yeah. I was like, yeah, but I want to create new knowledge, you know, all this rosy

SPEAKER_03: 6:50

stuff.

SPEAKER_00: 6:51

Yes, I feel that so much. So first, I just want to make sure we give you your full flowers because that is like, I mean, it's just so intentional and deliberate to be like, okay, I'm a nurse practitioner. I am practicing at the top of my specialty. I have my own practice. Like I am boss level doing these things here. And yet I know that I have more value to bring. And so I'm willing to go on that journey to do so. But also it just means that we end up now with somebody like you in academic medicine and public health, like I said, just so valuable to any space you inhabit because of all these different experiences. Being a nurse practitioner for two years is not the same thing as for 20 years and had my own practice. I just think that level of wisdom elevates your research work too. And I just wanted to say that out loud. So thank you for sharing with us. Thank you. Okay, so with all of this, especially all these different career transitions, I mean, I feel like you already made the hardest transition possible, which is like, you were like, okay, I'm gonna go from this clinical practice I own being my boss back into grad school, which I don't even, but having said that, obviously there were other challenges. So I, I just want to hear a little bit more, if you could tell us where were you in your career when you started considering coaching, going through this kind of professional and personal development process and like what wasn't working for you as somebody who clearly is very adaptable and clearly able to switch contexts and be successful. Yeah. So, you know, although I hold the touchstone, and I'm at the full professor faculty rank, I still think of myself as mid-career. And I guess it's because of all those transitions, but I think it's just where I think I'm at. But I started thinking about coaching because I had just accepted this role that I'm in as the director of CPPCI. And while I've been able to secure grant funding for my own personal research, transitioning more prominently into a leadership role is what I realized I needed coaching on because I felt like I was a hamster on a hamster wheel and I thought there's gotta be a way to work smarter, not harder. And I actually, I found you on Twitter. Actually, I think somebody else I follow had posted something you said, and then I are one of your links to your podcast. And I was like, oh, wait a minute, let me check this out. And then I started following the podcast and then I really learned more about the coaching program and what it could be, or even not just the coaching program, but but coaching in and of itself from all the gems and wisdom that you were giving on your podcast. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. I appreciate that. And I think you're highlighting something that it has taken me time to grow into, but now I really do see it, which is you could land these concepts in any point in a career. You could land them at like, you just got your first leadership position or you are in your second year on faculty trying to figure out where, what to do now that you know where the bathroom is or wherever. And I just think that you're a great example of somebody who had a lot of experience in her career, who, like you said, you were at the full professor level going up for leadership positions, but we're hearing some of the concepts that we teach and coach on and like, whoa, whoa, whoa, like this is a real shift. And I'm just highlighting that because it is possible to be successful and go your whole career without any of this. You don't have to do coaching. You don't have to do any of this and you can be wildly successful. The question is, can you be successful and have a life and not on the hamster wheel and having all of the, you know, the balance where it is like so charged at this point. But basically I would say the integration that you're looking for that makes it feel like this is exactly what I worked for. I worked for this experience, right? Not like I'm still trying to work towards some other future experience. Does that make sense? Absolutely. Absolutely. Working towards something and always feeling like you're on that hamster wheel. You're always have a to-do list or you're running and running and running, but not really having a clearly defined path. Like what does success look like and how do you define it for yourself? And I guess really internalizing that to know that I can define that for myself and not let the external world define that for me. Because when I'm old and gray, I want to be proud of what I did, not what somebody else says I lived up to. Girl, yes. That is exactly right. You said when I'm old and gray, I want to be proud of what I did, not what somebody else thought you did or like defined for you. What I was going to say was like, yeah, I think it's a difference between like thinking that success is getting the title, thinking that success is getting to full professor, thinking that success is like arriving. Okay. Now I've done it and not realizing like, those are just more titles. Yes. They're just more titles. Like they will not define for you what success experiences, what any of that is. And that was so good. And I always tell people like when they really want to know what I do, there are a lot of titles that I hold. I only let name two of them. Yes. All that means is I get to go to more meetings, but I also learned in coaching that I can construct my calendar and I can decide what gets on it and who has authority to get on it. Yes. Oh my gosh. Like my friend Monique says, it's like your time is yours. Yes. It's like such a radical concept. Sometimes it's like, that's yours. Like you don't owe it to anybody, especially when you get to a place where your job is really to be the leader you're orchestrating you are arranging the thing you are the one who has to like build a pathway for others you better make sure that your time is on your side

SPEAKER_03: 12:29

yes

SPEAKER_00: 12:30

because otherwise it compromises all of the other things that you're supposed to be doing okay let's keep going because we can talk all night okay would you share with us a moment or more and get that grant or any of your coaching experiences where you did notice something shift for you in a big way because like you said you were already listening to the podcast and like, okay, there's like a different way to go. So I'm really curious about the difference between that listening and then like, okay, now I'm in the program and something is shifting in a different way for me. Yeah. So I think you're so humble because you just said, you know, get that grant or something else. And I'm like, no, no, no, it was get that grant. The biggest thing that shifted for me during GTG was the realization that I don't have to be all things to all people all the time. As a woman of color, behavioral science, I'm always keenly aware of my movement in the space. And I've always felt this intense pressure to be better, to do better, et cetera, just to be considered on an equal playing field. So my entire career has been a feeling of being on a hamster wheel, like I said before, just running and running and running with no clearly defined end point that says you're good enough, you've made it, you're worthy. So day in and day out, I had this never ending to-do list that, you know, you never get to zero. That's a fallacy. Completely. What changed in Get That Grant was clearly defining my purpose. When I went through the exercise of defining my purpose and writing my personal purpose mantra, suddenly my lens totally changed. Every decision I make is through that lens. And when I successfully do this each day, I no longer have endless to-do lists and I no longer allow things onto my schedule that are not aligned with my purpose. It's that simple. Listen, mic drop. Like I tell the people, don't listen to me, listen to them. Because it's true. And it's like, before you get here, it feels unimaginable. What do you mean you could just make decisions based on your purpose and then just leave everything else? It's the only thing that's getting you to the integration. It's actually the only thing that's creating the successful experience. And ultimately, because at its root, it is reclaiming your own power and agency over your life. Yeah. You know, not to get too deep, but like at the end of the day, it's like, are you living this life? Is it yours? Yeah. Or is it literally all of theirs? And ultimately, don't you think that that Yeah. way far in. So you're not at five years, you're much deeper into your career, right? So we're at 10 years, we're at 15 years. We're like in that road. There really is a bifurcation. It's like, I've been doing it a certain way for a very long time. It has, I am successful externally for sure. And there's just this bifurcation in that, like, I do not believe there's any other way to do this and maintain my success. So I don't want to hear about any of this because I'm not going to compromise everything I've worked so hard for.

SPEAKER_03: 15:43

And

SPEAKER_00: 15:44

then there's the other group that's like, I have been doing this and been very, very, very successful. And I am not doing this like this for another second. I don't care what you do. I don't care what it is. Do we have a sacrifice core? Like I don't know what we're doing, but whatever we're doing, we are not doing it this way again. And so it's like that part, like that belief part, I can't do anything about that. You know what I mean? Like you have to be willing to realize, okay, I could do this differently, even though it's worked for me in a certain way up until this point. But then I also feel like, I don't know, Lisa. It's like, I feel like once you do make that shift, those of you who are way farther in your career, the way that y'all make decisions and like revolutionize your schedule is very different. Y'all are like, cut it off. Tell them no. Like, it's almost like all of that pent up, all of those years, all of that pent up potential energy comes out. And so your transformations are so fast. And so I just love it. Did that make sense to you? Did that resonate with how you're experiencing? Oh, absolutely. assistant knows my whole schedule and he doesn't put anything on my schedule that's not in my blocks. And I don't have a problem saying no anymore. Oh my gosh. Amen. You know, a long time ago, my personal mentor, when I went through my postdoc told me no is a complete sentence. I don't think I ever heard that until I went through coaching. I don't think it sunk in. Right. It's like you can hear it, but have you operationalized it? Do you believe it? You know what I mean? Yeah. I think it's the difference between like, I heard somebody say this was great. And like, I'm actually using this to make decisions it's like is it embodied yet is it in you or is it just something you're hearing about there's something else I remember something else you've said that I wanted to pull on is that you said like back when I was trying to be all things to all people recognizing that I'm coming in from the margins right I'm from the outside like for all these various different reasons definitely centrally because I'm a woman of color and so none of this stuff was built for me like you said something which is so important which is that the to-do list will never end right it is actually Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. answer wheel starts, right? Yeah. And you're just chasing it and you're chasing it. And so that unhooking and saying, my goal is no longer this. My goal is this alignment with my purpose. My goal is the work that I do. You're still going to work hard. You're still going to do amazing things. You're still going to be challenged, but it is a completely different feeling to know that it's not an impossible task. It's a possible task. Right. And I think you also had one of the things that comes bubbles up as, as you're talking, is the fact that when we're not aligned with our purpose, I think sometimes we seek gratification from externally. We need to have people say, we're doing a good job. We need to get this award. We need to get that grant. Not that saying get that grant is not that you don't know. No, I get it. I mean, it's named that for a reason. At the end of the day, we need the money. Exactly. But you want to be recognized for things. But when you actually are aligned with your purpose, suddenly that gratification comes from inside you and you're no longer chained to the outside world. And actually, I think it makes you a better person moving through this world because you don't have those concerns of, oh, I need to be recognized by my boss or I need to get this before this year. I need to do better integrity. Yes. Yes. Because you're not trying to like, please all these different folks. And then all of a sudden you told Jack this, you told Jill that, you know what I mean? Because you are earnestly trying to meet this goal of being all things to all people and unfortunately what gets sacrificed I think a lot in academic medicine public health is people's integrity and it's like I get it I'm not even like judging you I'm just saying like you can't hold on to that when you've got all these different people to please as your goal so I agree with you I think it makes your work better because your focus is not on the external so it's like the difference between like do you start with well what are they going to think about this and then go back to what I want to do or do you start with, this is what I want to do. How do I make sure they see what they're supposed to see? Yes. Right? Like strategy is still deeply involved, y'all. It doesn't mean your work doesn't get reviewed. It doesn't mean any of that. But where you begin is, like you said, inside. It is a completely different place than beginning outside. And do you recall that you actually start Get That Grant telling us that we need to get off social media? You know, I do. Yes, I do. That's very intentional. And it relates to- Because you go through and it's like fear of missing out or you start judging yourself against like people you don't even know or people you do know. Yes. And you allow us to do the work, the inner work that will lead, lays that framework and that foundation for everything else that's to come with coaching. Yep. You have to practice hearing yourself. I mean, that's part of the issue is like, you're so good at the, I'm going to check all these boxes. Like nobody's going to be able to look at this resume and find a chink in my armor, right? Like you're just, you're so good at that, that your attention, I think I did an episode about this, like the hypervigilance. Your attention is so external constantly that you barely know what your own voice sounds like. You think your voice sounds like, let me go do this because that would be good. Let me go do this because that would look good. That's what you think your voice sounds like because it's been so long since it's just like, I want to do this kind of work because I just want to. I think we should do it in this way just because that's what I enjoy. completely different hearing of yourself. So yeah, we do do that, by the way, y'all. I tell people like, you need to go on a social media cleanse, you know, and you can take it as far as you want. But what I do, I can tell you right now, you can tell who's cleansed and who's not. This is why, because when you're quiet and you're only listening to you, Lisa, and you're going through our lessons, right? Like you're going through the modules, you're doing the work. You will have questions and challenges, but they're always building on what you just did. You're like, okay, I figured this out. So now this is my next question. Okay. So I understand this. When you're still at the mercy of all the voices, because you're scrolling Twitter or you do this, your questions are never building on what we just did. Your questions are like, okay, I just did this, but now I'm worried because I saw this person posted this. So now I'm asking about this. And we're like, we're not even talking about men. Where did this come from? And you start to realize, oh, this came from this comment over here. This, well, I saw this person was doing that. So the reason why it's really in there is actually E efficiency because all of that noise slows people down. And for me personally, I like to learn and let's learn. Let's go. I don't want to be circling back and over and over again. So that's part of why it is there, too, is just to get people focused so they can move forward quickly in the program. Yeah. Okay. So we touched on some of these, but anything else you want to share about what you have now that you feel like you didn't have before embarking on coaching? I think clarity, a clear path forward, a framework for getting things done. And most important is that framework that aligns with me being my most authentic self. Yes. It's so personal too. Like that's what I, I think where it feels so good to see y'all blossom is that it's like you make the rules, you know, it's so funny, right? Cause at the end of the day, people are like, okay, what do I need to do differently? And it's like, we do all this stuff and we go through a lot of very specific, you know, kind of exercises and things. But at the end of the day, what you come out with that is so helpful that you're like, oh my God, I love that this is working for me. You made it. You created it all. Like we give you permission and some tools, right? These are things that work, these don't, that kind of thing. But then ultimately you make it and that's why I think it lasts. Yeah. Because you didn't take it off a frame. You didn't just read a book and be like, okay, let me try it. Like you really sat down and thought, what does Lisa want in her day to day? Like what does Lisa want Tuesday to look like? Yeah. Not a generic book that tells me, oh, I need to do morning writing or E Yes. Yeah, no, not that. Exactly. Yes, we talked about that. Everybody's different. I'm not sure how every person on the planet is supposed to equally enjoy morning writing time. That literally just cannot be the truth. It can't be possible. So let's explode some of that kind of rigidity that we've created in the wellness balance space and get back to what it's really supposed to be about, I think, which is how you co-design your experience with the micro environment that you're in, how you actually assess, this is the work that I want to do. This is the environment I'm meant to do it. This is me and my preferences. How do I actively design the experience so that ultimately it feels good for me? That's really what we're doing. And that means that you can take it anywhere. So when your context changes, you can still do the same thing. You can still do that work.

SPEAKER_03: 25:03

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00: 25:04

Yeah. So Lisa, what advice would you give? And I'm going to be specific here because again, you're one of our more senior faculty members who joined our program. I know you said you think your early career or mid-career, but girl, you the director of this, that, and third, you full professor. Come on now. If you're not senior, who is? So I can ask you something more specific, which is what advice would you give a senior faculty member like you who might just be stepping into these new roles, who might be stepping into a new level of visibility, or maybe they've been there for a year or so and they're like, oh my gosh, the grass is not greener. What the hell? And, you know, they just signed up. How are they going to get the most out of it? How are they going to be where you are at the end of your experience with the program? The first thing is to realize that it doesn't matter what career stage you are at to go through a process of embeddering yourself. And the bottom line is really do the work, spend the time going through the modules, really come to those sessions, whether it's coaching or it's a module you're working on on your own, come to those being fully present because you owe it to your current and your future self to provide yourself this form of self-care. and be open to discovering new things about yourself that you didn't know existed. Yes. I remember when you were sharing, it's not just you at where you are. First of all, I co-sign all of those things. And also you deserve, how many more years are we going to do it this way before you deserve to be like, no, okay, I'm going to do it differently for me. Anyway, in addition to that, we've had this conversation too about the impact on others because of where you are. When you do this work as the leader that has this much agency, this much power, that's directing what you're directing, it is a huge impact on all these other people that are ostensibly looking up to you and being like, how do I do this? So it's like, you don't do it for them because like I said, you got to do it for you. But it just inevitably, there is this other ripple effect of the legacy that you're leading when people see a woman of color, successful, senior, and integrated, not bitter, not angry, not reactive, not depressed, not empty, right? Integrated, doing her work. That is so powerful. Yeah, no, that's beyond powerful. And I think regardless of what stage you're at, I mean, I think we have role models at every stage, but we are role models at every stage. And if you can give yourself this form of self-care where you really figure out internally and do that internal work, figure out what your purpose is and align it with your everyday personal and professional life i mean that's fire yeah i mean i do this to change the world and humbly in my little tiny way on this little spinning rock yes okay is there like an example or anything you could share of how like people in your life not in your career life or maybe in your career life have reacted or noticed your transformation through the program yeah actually i think because this program yes i know it's a professional coaching thing but It's bled over into my personal life as well.

SPEAKER_02: 28:18

So

SPEAKER_00: 28:19

I look at everything through my purpose mantra and my home life has seen that and how much more at peace I am. I don't have headaches anymore. I suffer from migraine headaches. I don't have my, I mean, it's very rare now that I have a migraine in the past six months. You know, I'm finding myself bringing myself very present, very intentional to every aspect of my life. life and I shut it down. You know, it's five o'clock whenever my professional day ends, I can wait. I'm going to India next week and I am going to, I've already let people know I'm going to be gone. I'm gone. I will not be checking. I will not be like logging onto wifi, checking anything. You know, I used to be in my nursing days. I was an emergency room nurse. There is nothing that is airway breathing or circulation about behavioral science that can't wait. Exactly. It's like you come back to what you already know, which is none of this is life-threatening. So You will be fine. We will all be fine. Yes, and I am better for it. Yes. What you just said there, that peace, that at peace, I mean, less headaches, less migraine headaches, being able to just turn off, that's like the opposite of the hamster wheel. It's like, no, it's five o'clock. You're done. That's your allotted time. I'm going to go do whatever. Those are just major shifts. Thank you for sharing.

SPEAKER_01: 29:41

I'm productive.

SPEAKER_00: 29:42

I know. I'm aware. I'm publishing. Oh, the girl is getting funded and published my friend don't get it twisted I can shut it down but I didn't have a life and still be on point well you're an example of what's possible and I'm very grateful for you willing to share with us and chat with me today is there anything else you wanted to share no I just appreciate you having me oh thank you Lisa I hope you have a wonderful rest of your evening and I'm excited for your trip thank you me too all right take care bye hey there. To be honest, this is uncomfortable for me, but here's the thing. I am getting used to leaning into discomfort. So here is my request for you. I am unapologetically asking you for something. If you listened to this podcast episode and it resonated for you and it was helpful for you, can you double check and see if you follow our podcast on your platform? Make sure that you follow us or subscribe so that you never miss an episode and you don't have to worry about hearing from somebody else in an episode was good because it will just automatically download to your device. Here's another thing that would be amazing. If you haven't yet, I would really appreciate if you go on your podcast platform to rate our podcast and to post a review if you love it. It does actually make a difference to people being able to find this podcast who similarly would appreciate the content. And basically, I would appreciate it a lot. So thanks for listening. I do this because I want us all to be in community with an elevated level of conversation. And I hope that you follow us. You like our episodes and you consider leaving a rating and review if you haven't yet. Thanks so much. Take care. Bye.