27 Coaching Client Spotlight: Jessica Chen PhD

Dr. Jessica Chen is a practicing psychologist and health services researcher focused on the equitable delivery of care for PTSD in the setting of chronic pain and co-occurring substance use disorders in the VA system.  She is also an alumni of my Get That Grant coaching program and an ongoing amazing coaching client. 

Take a listen to hear some real behind the scenes of her coaching journey: 

• The primary fear that triggered her to consider coaching  
• The price of compromise on your authenticity, regardless of career success 
• The coaching tool that has become her anchor and her superpower for flexibility 
• Being able to lead and secure her first $1.1M independent award without fear 
• The *best* metaphor I have heard to date on career coaching! 

If you loved this convo, please go find Jess on Twitter (@jesschenphd) and show her some love! 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:00

There really is like freedom on the other side of all of this. That is what coaching gives you.

SPEAKER_02: 0:14

Hello, hello. You are listening to your unapologetic career. Being a woman of color faculty in academic medicine who wants to make a real difference with your career can be tough. Listen, these systems are not built for us, but that doesn't mean we can't make them work for us. In each episode, I'll be taking a deep dive into one core growth strategy so you can gain confidence and effectiveness in pursuing the dream career you worked so hard to achieve. All you have to do is tune in to your unapologetic career with me, your host, Kemi Dole, physician, surgeon, researcher, coach, and career strategist for an always authentic, sometimes a little raw, but unapologetically empowering word. I keep it real for you because I want you to win. Are you building the academic career you want or hard at work? on everyone else's to-do list. A successful career doing the work that you love doesn't mean you have to sacrifice your values, your family, or your joy. Stop trying to be everything to everybody and get to learning the strategies that will 3X your productivity, hone your passions into funded projects, and create the career you work so hard to achieve. If you've been to every career development workshop that sounded great, but didn't actually deal with the kind of institutional pressures you face, if you're working hard but somehow stuck in inefficiency, putting everyone else's priorities first, if you spent years training and sacrificing to become academic faculty, and here you are still working nights and weekends on the projects that you care most about, I'm here to tell you that you can walk away from this institutional mindset forever and take control of your career with clarity and strategy. Everyday I help women of color faculty and academic medicine like you reframe and recreate their academic life so that they can channel their ideas, passions, and skills into grant-funded work with institutional support. That's why this episode is brought to you by Get That Grant, my six-month comprehensive high-performance coaching program for high-achieving women of color faculty and academic medicine who are ready to reclaim career control and secure funding doing the work they love. In Get That Grant, we help you kick imposter syndrome to the curb for good so you lead your career with clarity and confidence. You learn productivity and strategy skills for grants and papers to maximize your chances of success without wasting your time, abandoning your passion, or working yourself into the ground. We help you build the foundation for an amazing and fulfilling academic career, changing your life and the lives of every Yes, this future is possible for you, and it's waiting on you to take the first step. If you're ready for career success without sacrifice, I encourage you to book a coaching consult call today by visiting chemidoll.com backslash grant. After you book your call, you will complete an in-depth career foundations assessment, helping you identify the gaps in your foundation that are holding you back from enjoying your career. Hello, Jess. Welcome to the Your Unapologetic Career Podcast. Hello, Kemi. Thank you for having

SPEAKER_00: 4:20

Thank

SPEAKER_02: 4:22

you so much for agreeing to chat. I think that these client spotlight episodes are very exciting for folks and it's exciting for them to get to hear about like the inside, like what's on the other side of this coaching journey. I'm so intrigued. So no matter how much I try, I can't give those answers. So I'm so excited to be able to speak with you and share a little bit of that with the audience.

SPEAKER_00: 4:44

I hope I can give them a peek behind the curtain. Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_02: 4:49

So Jess, This is no pressure, but I was going to say, I'm super, especially excited about our chat because you are one of my very first clients and my very first group, which was June, 2019 or July, 2019 is when y'all

SPEAKER_00: 5:08

started. I was January, 2020. You were

SPEAKER_02: 5:11

January, 2020. Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 5:12

I was in contact with you. Like that's what

SPEAKER_02: 5:17

it was. Yes. Okay. So you were like, Oh, OG. Yes, exactly. Jess is OG. So this is so exciting because you've really been there from the beginning. Okay. We're getting ahead of ourselves though. So let's first just do your introduction. Jess, give us your one-liner that's really your three-liner. Where are you from? What's your specialty? What's your research interests?

SPEAKER_00: 5:38

Okay. I'm an assistant professor in the Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences at the University of Washington in Seattle. And I am a clinical psychologist and a health services researcher. And my research is focused on the equitable delivery of care for chronic pain and co-occurring mental health and substance use disorders.

SPEAKER_02: 6:01

Love it. Such critical work. Thank you for doing it. So I'm curious if you can share with us, where were you in your career when you first were considering coaching and why were you considering it?

SPEAKER_00: 6:13

So in my career, when I first discovered your Twitter account, 2019. Yes, you were launching the coaching business. I was one year out of my fellowship. And I had just taken a staff position at the hospital that I work at. And at the time, I would say from the outside, people would probably think my career was looking great. I had just been awarded a career development award.

SPEAKER_01: 6:46

And

SPEAKER_00: 6:48

through all of those years of my fellowship, I felt Everyone had told me the goal is to get a CDA or a K. That is the signature achievement for early career. And once you get that, then you're on the pathway. You're set. That's the clear road. And that's how you do it in academic medicine. So I had just kind of achieved that. But that's how it looked from the outside. But how it felt from the inside was I was feeling very deeply alone in my work and in my workplace. And I was feeling really unsure of myself. And I think that is what drew me to considering coaching. If I could just give an example of what I mean by being alone and unsure of myself. Mm hmm.

SPEAKER_01: 8:20

And

SPEAKER_00: 8:21

I think you just released a podcast episode recently about isolation or that was one part of it. Yeah. So I felt like I was in that place where it was just really hard for me to feel like the things I had to show for all of my hard work, that those kind of matched up with some maybe more like authentic voice or something that I knew that I was wanting to do. There was like a disconnect there. And I hated every single time having to say who I was because it felt very fraudulent.

SPEAKER_02: 9:15

Yeah. You know what? Oh, thank you so much for sharing this because I feel like Yeah. to basically putting a filter on like what I really mean and like turning it upside down and backwards to make it fit. And for me to fit in that, when you're asking me like, who are you and what do you do? Yes. When I say that it doesn't feel authentic, it feels fraudulent, but that is so different than like, I don't think I have an, I'm not enough. And I'm just so grateful for you to say it. Cause I want to pull that out so much more, especially for women of color in the academy. It's like that feeling of fraudulent, that isn't about your confidence issue. That is a product of the isolation and, and almost like when you feel that it's wrong, it's like, it's actually a great sign that you're still in touch with what's right. You know?

SPEAKER_00: 10:30

Yes. Oh yeah. And that is so true. And I have to say, when I started reading your tweets and that I was like watching your videos and listening to your voice, because you asked like, why did I decide to start coaching? Yeah. There was something that I heard in there that made me think this isn't like a workshop to be like, oh, how do you write every day? Or like, how do you be more productive? No, man. like what my work was meant to be, but I felt like I needed that translation. And I heard that in the videos that I watched of you and the tweets that I read. Oh,

SPEAKER_02: 11:30

thank you. That makes me so happy because that is really the intention is like, we need to get to the root. I want everybody to get outside of the surface level conversation because my experience with the surface level conversation is that the only answers at that level is that there's something wrong with you or that the system is impossible and getting in line and suffer. I don't hear anything else at that surface level. I'm like, so this is not helpful to me. I want to be at the level of conversation where I have agency back and where I can make a transition and where I can enjoy my career. That's what I'm interested. That's a conversation I'm interested in having. I think your journey has been incredible. I want to open it up to you first and just ask if there are any moments in coaching, so either in Get That Grant or since that you've continued on with coaching, where something really shifted for you that you can remember and if you would share one of those or multiple of those times with us.

SPEAKER_00: 12:22

Yeah. I mean, there are so many moments like that in coaching and I've been doing this for, I guess like a year and a half now. So there've been a lot of moments. I'll give an example, like one really specific one that relates to that first thing I said, where I was like terrified of having to say who I was and what I do. Of course, during the original time period and get that grant, I was doing a bunch of job interviews because I was transitioning and to a faculty position as assistant professor so for someone who really does not want to have to talk about herself and what she does it was like I had to do a lot of meetings with people like you know faculty I'd never met before in my department department chairs and I had to do that blurb over and over about who I am what I do why do you want me in your department but before I did all those interviews I had a one-on-one coaching with you and I think I remember just like just coming and being like Kemi I'm really terrified I'm really terrified of these interviews. And we started to dig deeper into it. And I remember at one point you said to me, you're like, Jess, it seems like you feel like you need to like expose yourself. Like I can hear your words. You feel like you need to like rip off all your clothes and like proclaim how your research is going to change the world. And you're like, it's more like you're kind of choosing what outfit to wear today. Like you're more talking about like where you and your research are right now and where it might be tomorrow. And I realized at that moment, like not only was that a huge relief, like it totally clicked for me and I felt way less pressure. But I also realized that like the flip side of that fraudulent feeling was that I had like set the bar so high for myself, like in the opposite direction that I had like insisted that I needed to have this like kind of like really rigid, totally self-contained exact idea of exactly who I was and what I stood for. Right. to be super concise and I could say it perfectly because I felt like that was like the only remedy to feeling sort of lost or feeling. Yeah. It's like another level of armor, right?

SPEAKER_02: 14:31

And you're like, oh, this will be perfect. It'd be like airtight. Like nobody

SPEAKER_00: 14:34

can get in. It was airtight was exactly what I was aiming for. And I realized like, oh, that is not setting me up for success either. And one of the things that came back to, so like one of my very favorite things and get that grant is the very first thing that we do around the purpose Because I have come back to that over and over and over and over and over. I have a clear sense now inside myself, and I don't need to worry about creating the airtight argument to someone else that this study is related to this study and obviously leads here. And that came through a lot of different avenues in coaching. But I do think about that one, one on one coaching that we had, where I just really felt this sense of relief, like I was taking this huge burden off my plate.

SPEAKER_02: 15:44

I love that. Thank you. I mean, what I hear you saying is, like your stability started coming from inside from like yourself instead of something that you had to create that had to be like had to build this platform that's perfect like the stability is in here and then from there you can be so much more creative because you're not worried about falling off the stage right yeah like I am the stage I can do whatever and it's just like a totally different feeling so true yeah I love to hear that I think it leads to well there's kind of two different questions I want to ask you about the first one I ask you about is how do you think that led into your new recent grant application. You know, I was going to talk about it because it's just been incredible to watch and you had just some really amazing things to say in the group. I mean, you posted in the community about your experience with applying and then you posted when you got the grant. And so I just wonder if you would share a little bit about maybe the differences that you noticed between, you know, when you applied and got grants before versus afterwards and just like, what was your big takeaway other than getting a whole bunch of money in that grant? What was your biggest takeaway? Oh

SPEAKER_00: 16:51

yeah. So many. I think about like the, well, the starting place for the grant is that I had just kind of started my CDA and there was this opportunity to apply for something that involved a partnership. And I was immediately like, no, no, no, it's too soon. I can't do it. This is not the right timeline. And very quickly through the help of a good mentor and through all of my coaching skills, I realized that I had just created some belief that there was like one right timeline and I had to weigh like three years until I applied for independent funding. And so that quickly went out the window because coaching, you very quickly realize like, where does that belief come from? I mean, most of the time it's nowhere. Whose rule is that? That's my favorite question. So whose rule is that? Exactly. Yes. And I'm like, okay, so that's a stupid rule. I'm going to throw that one out. And I think throughout the process, I posted a lot about working in a team in ways where I really did not know a lot of things like there is a lot like one of the things with like economic evaluations it's like I'm not a health economist you know that's not something that I've specialized in and I had previously set myself up I think with this idea we talked about this as like training mindset where like I might need to do like five years of study on health economics before I can apply for this grant like that had been my old you know framework and my new framework was really like I'm working with experts that's what they do and I will draw on their expertise but But I can still lead this grant, even if I don't have that specific skill set. That was like one example of just learning to work in a team. And like you said, probably just start to orient more to, I have this very particular vision for this grant. And that really comes from me. And I don't need to worry so much about creating that airtight container that I think looks perfect on the outside where, you know, no one can possibly say, oh, you don't know how to do this like I was not afraid of someone saying it seems like you've never done this before it really came down to like I have this clear vision that I want to execute on and I have this team that's going to work with me to get there that was a big part of it and there was also along the way a lot of getting feedback from people in ways that used to really derail me like I was like very worried about getting internal critiques and how

SPEAKER_02: 19:18

yeah

SPEAKER_00: 19:19

I don't even remember now. It's so far away. The feeling of just being terrified of the internal critiques, like totally derailing my plan. I can never submit it because I'll be too embarrassed. Can we just talk about how you're like, I'll never remember.

SPEAKER_02: 19:32

I guess I used to fear this. Like what? People are listening like, excuse me. I love it, Jess. Keep going.

SPEAKER_00: 19:40

It's the freedom. It's the freedom that coaching provides you. Yeah. I mean, I think I might've had a one-on-one coaching with you where I'm like, well, I guess if the internal critiques are really bad, I might just need to kind of delay the submission or kind of give up on her. So I think we work through a lot of the beliefs there around being just, you know, afraid to fail publicly or whatever those different fears are. And, and really it wasn't that bad when I went into it with my new skill set and mindset, it was like, I could welcome every piece of information to help me make this better before.

SPEAKER_02: 20:14

Yeah. Amazing. First of all, because I think what you're pointing out is like, there's two layers. Like one, it's like when you're able to walk in, whether you're playing it cool or not, but not just in like abject fear and worry, you can receive everything easier because it's like, you're not adding gasoline to the fire of like, maybe you get a negative critique, but you're not adding the gasoline of being terrified of it and being ashamed and all this stuff. Now it's just somebody disagrees with you. So I think I hear you saying that as like, I can just take the feedback. And what I'll add that I think I saw was that like the level at which the self-trust at which you were like, this is what I'm going to incorporate. This is what I'm not going to incorporate. It was like really visible, I think. And did you experience that too?

SPEAKER_00: 20:55

That was so radically different. Yeah. That was the difference between making concessions along the way and saying like, okay, this senior person thinks I should do it this way. Well, that's the only way I can do it then because that person said so versus like, I know what it is I want to convey and whether or not anyone else likes it, that's really what this grant is going to be about. So I'm only going to take what's going to support that I think that's so true and I think also the difference I'm realizing as I heard you say is the difference between what you call like hustling for your worth the difference between I'm putting this out for feedback because I want to know whether or not I even deserve to be here that being shifted into this is a problem solving thing I'm putting out something I want to find out what's not working and then I can deal with it and it's not about you know whether or not I deserve to be here anymore I

SPEAKER_02: 21:48

love it Jess would you like to share with us the outcome of the grant and how much money you received? Yes,

SPEAKER_00: 21:54

it was funded on the first submission. First submission. Continue. First independent grant. And it's about$1.1 million evaluation center. I'm really excited. There's so many cool parts about this grant that I'm really looking forward to. So

SPEAKER_02: 22:13

fabulous. I'm excited for you because I know how meaningful your work is to you. And it's just a completely different experience to be in touch with that. And then to be working towards these things that we all have to work towards and to receive the funding and to get it and realize, oh my gosh, yes, like another step forward in this work that I want to do. It's wonderful to watch. I hope it was wonderful to experience, but it's just wonderful to watch.

SPEAKER_00: 22:42

It is, I think, really amazing. And I think I don't even notice as much like how in incredible a journey it really is. But I will tell you for the people who have been with me for many years, like mentors who have been with me for five plus years or other colleagues, the difference that they can see, like you said, whether it's being able to see that I have more self-trust or just even seeing, you know, I'm putting in quotes here, the gold stars. Yeah. Yeah. Like what people see from the outside is, is like an amazing amount of progress since I started this coaching program. Love

SPEAKER_02: 23:18

it, Jess. Feels good. Yeah. Yes, it feels good. It feels good. oh my God, what have I done? Like that is a lot of money. And also I'm already busy. Like I already have a million things to do. Like how could this be the thing I need to do when I like, I'm already drowning under like the millions of things. So I would say there's like, there's like a general feeling of kind of like panic. I have my own hypothesis about it, but I'm curious to hear like what you would, cause you potentially been through it. Like what you would say to somebody else kind of like in that moment or about to go through that moment.

SPEAKER_00: 24:16

Yes. Okay. So I have maybe like a concrete level and then like another level of what I think might be going on. Okay. This is a problem when you interview a therapist. I know.

SPEAKER_01: 24:26

Y'all always go deep.

SPEAKER_00: 24:28

Like, well, you're going to talk about the emotion second. But I think on the like very concrete level, that feeling that most of us sign up for coaching in a place and we are like overwhelmed. Our to-do list feels never ending. We feel so busy and it's like now we're faced with it's like curriculum and there's meetings and there's work you have to do and it's like even if it's just one hour a week, it can be hard to imagine setting aside that time. If you're like me, like I wasn't exercising like downtime. There are so many things I also wanted to do. How do you make time for coaching? How do you make it a priority? And one, like, I guess like framework that I took at the time, I really did make that hour per week when I started. And I thought about it as like, just a really foundational necessity. And the way I kind of think about it is like, what happens when you have your giant to-do list, you might have deadlines today or tomorrow. And then like your laptop goes out, your computer just stops working. And it's like, for most people, you stop whatever you're doing. You put a pause on your deadlines because you just have to get that foundational thing working. You shouldn't get your computer working. You just like that needs to happen first. And then that will make everything else easier. And I think about coaching and what I now know as like CEO time is like very much like that because we can like put band-aids on like in the computer example. I think you could like go to a library Or you could like borrow someone else's computer. You can do things to kind of just like keep checking things off your list for a little bit longer. But it's always not sustainable. And the way I thought about the coaching was that like it was the first thing I needed to get done when I was working really actively in the grant curriculum. I needed to do that first. And I still find always when I do my CEO time that it makes everything else afterwards easier. So

SPEAKER_01: 26:15

that's

SPEAKER_00: 26:17

just one like. very like concrete thing I thought about in terms of my schedule and when you're freaking out I really like I promise that the rewards are there if you if you can put the the skills in coaching there first your to-do list will seem so much more manageable. So that's kind of like the way the more surface level but then I think the other level I think of with like freaking out you've just signed up for this program and you're facing really what I think of as like transformation in change. There's no change that's comfortable. Exactly. On the flip side, keeping things exactly as they are is painful in the long run. I think that people can get stuck between thinking about the long-term pain of things staying exactly the way they are and then when they look at what you do in coaching, that discomfort of having to really like I said, throw out some rules that maybe you've been living by for a long time.

SPEAKER_02: 27:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 27:24

I don't know. I guess I just feel like there's, yeah, there's no change that you can do that doesn't require some discomfort. Yeah. You know what? I think you're

SPEAKER_02: 27:33

right. It's true. Like if you're not in any way willing to be uncomfortable or to challenge some of the kind of rules that you've lived by, it doesn't make sense. Like don't do coaching. That's the whole point is change, right? The whole point is rewriting the rule I think it's like the transformation. So you have a different experience of your literal career. And so, yeah, I think you're right. And that's also why I love the people who come to coach with me because all of you have a nugget of courage, you know? And it's like, I feel like in a lot of ways, that is what we are like nurturing. It's like, it's a little, little nugget, little tiny flame. And we just keep like adding wood, like to the fire and adding more and more. And so by the time you're done, it's just like this beautiful, like big flame. And Jess is like walking into the whip with her grant. Like, all right, what do y'all think? Like, let's go. Like, you know, but that flame is important because it's like the little, that little spark of courage is what helps you get through the like, oh, okay, this is going to be different. Oh, okay. I have to set aside time. Oh, okay. Like I really have to trust the process. I really have to be willing to go deep and to like answer these questions and think about a different view or a different way to approach things. So, I mean, I think you're right. I think that's, that's like super helpful for people to hear. And it's just like so exciting on the other side. So I think the last thing I would just ask you to share is like, if you wanted to give someone advice who is going to be in the coaching program, especially with the aspect of the group and community, what advice would you give them to make sure they got the most

SPEAKER_00: 29:04

out of the

SPEAKER_02: 29:04

program?

SPEAKER_00: 29:05

I'm so glad you mentioned the group and the community because when you describe those flames, I want to be like one of the most beautiful things about this coaching program is that you're in this group with these incredible, brilliant women. There are all these like bright flames there. I mean, they're so inspired. And I think to get the most out of the program, I mentioned armor earlier. And again, this is like, God, I'm such a therapist, but I'm like, there is, I think, so much to gain. If you feel in this space that you can really let down some of that armor, there's so much to learn from these other women. And there's so much wisdom to be gained from, I think, just putting out there the things that are hard to do. hardest for you that you know sometimes we don't feel comfortable sharing in our professional settings but things that we're really struggling with and getting feedback from a lot of people who I think are really supportive and whose experiences maybe line up better with your own than most of your colleagues but I think you can get that wisdom from people if you're not willing to put a little something out there willing to be vulnerable

SPEAKER_02: 30:15

yeah vulnerability is definitely required It's not like over the top privacy, but yeah. But I mean the whole, you know, if things aren't working, things have to change. And like you said, change requires, what I call it is like change requires awareness and looking at the issue. So like, and you can't actually fix the issue until you look at it and you really deconstruct, like, why am I following this rule? Like, why do I have this standard that I feel like I have to uphold? And once we can see that, then the tools are super useful. Cause it's like, okay, if you're going to let that go. I think what we offer is like, you can let that go. And here's a whole bunch of tools to support you in like the destabilization phase where you're like building, you know, the stage and building the platform within yourself. Here's all these tools to support you because we know it's destabilizing. But it's also why the tools come second, right? It's like, it's why the tools come second, because if you're still following the same rules about like this person matters, or I have to do it this way, or I have to return this email or all that, then like, there's no point in the tools. Like there's no, Don't use them. You'll just get frustrated because they don't work ultimately until, you know, up here changes. Absolutely. And I think that falls into what you're saying about the community, because then it makes you realize how incredibly valuable it is then to be in community with also people who have made that shift, who are also using the tools. And I think that's why y'all keep coming back like with like, okay, this is the situation. Okay. Who has advice about this or dah, dah, dah, dah, because that curated conversation is just on another level, you know, then when we're doing the usual academic complaining the grind the whatever the whatever it's like it's a totally different space and that is like that's what's so exciting for me personally like just to watch and be like look at this right they're tending their own flames yay

SPEAKER_00: 32:03

so true so you you talk sometimes about institutional a conflict of interest and I'm just like imagine a space where one people don't have institutional conflict of interest and two like you said everyone is invested in their own growth in like taking taking charge of their career and it's so different from traditional academic culture like you said the complaining and the sort of like the drama or the like investing in um you talk about the the like grand drama like people love talking about like how hard it is yeah but there's the mission in and i like no sleep at all and everything you know just like all of the the normal narratives and academic culture just like none of that is there and it's a totally different plane it's like a different, I just can't even describe. It's a different experience when people have that mindset shift and they're not coming at you with the standard rules that you always hear that keep you stuck.

SPEAKER_02: 33:00

Yeah, I agree. I agree. And I think that when you're in that space, you realize how energy draining it is on the other side. Then you're like, oh, that's why I'm so tired. Oh, that's why it takes me so long to finish this thing. Cause you've like wasted 80% of your energy on the day and like the bullshit conversation. Excuse my language right and all the complaining and all of this and it's like i think that was the other shift like that happened for me that i saw you guys really like embrace it's like oh like i could literally spend my energy like doing the usual conversation complaining and waste it all and then be at 11 p.m like oh like typing upset that's why it's like not just the discipline and the focus it's not just like i blocked the time and i showed up it's like no i connected with community that made it more likely that i would get this work done during the day than any time else and like that is the power I think that's super exciting it's amazing so much for for coming and like sharing with us and having this like lovely conversation anything else that you want to share before we wrap up

SPEAKER_00: 34:03

you know I just I really like what you said that there really is like freedom on the other side of all of this that is what coaching gives you that's all I would say to someone who's thinking about it is not sure

SPEAKER_02: 34:14

thank you Jess and what's crazy is that like you just started I mean meaning like you're career. You got your career development award. You just got your first independent award. I just think about the trajectory. Instead of spending years circling whatever drain, the trajectory is like, girl, you're going to do whatever you want. I mean, five years? I don't know. Watch out. I don't know what we're going to have here. But it's been just wonderful. And thank you for spending time with us today. And I hope you have a wonderful day and rest of your week.

SPEAKER_00: 34:42

Thank you so much, Kami. Thanks for having me.

UNKNOWN: 34:48

Music

SPEAKER_02: 34:51

Hello, I'm coming through to remind you that we are starting a listener letter segment on the Your Unapologetic Career podcast. The segment is unnamed thus far. The placeholder is listener letters. I'm considering names. Submit if you feel so inclined. But anyway, just a reminder to write in with questions that you have. You can ask me anything. I will decide what I want to answer. You can bring forth challenging situations or suggest topics you might want to hear more about to do that. You can reach me at podcast at kdolcoach.com. That's podcast at K-D-O-L-L-C-O-A-C-H.com with your questions. Please note if you'd like to be anonymous and I will always do my best to keep you so excited to hear from y'all.

UNKNOWN: 35:42

Bye.