95 Client Spotlight: Dr. Tia N. Barnes, PhD

Dr. Barnes is an Assistant Professor in Human Development and Family Sciences at the University of Delaware. Her research examines the social-emotional well-being of minoritized populations. She has published papers in several journals including Infant and Child Development, the Journal of School Violence, Aggression and Violent Behavior, and Beyond Behavior. She is the creator of the Scholarly Self-Care podcast and is the 2021 recipient of the Joseph E. Zins Award for SEL Research from the Collaborative for Academic Social and Emotional Learning. She is also an alumna of our Get That Grant® coaching program!

Listen in as we discuss her coaching journey and: 

• What drew her to apply to our Get That Grant® coaching program as an education researcher
• How she felt the Get That Grant® program could lend support with the next phase of her career as she approached tenure approval
• The strategies she has learned that are game-changers for her career experience  
• Why she has more confidence in her “NOs” to opportunities that don't align with her work regardless of who is asking
• The radical difference she has noticed with grant writing pre and post our Get That Grant® coaching program
• Her advice to education researchers who are thinking about joining Get That Grant® (SPOILER: Shoot your shot sis!)

 If you loved this convo, please go find Dr. Barnes on Twitter @drtianbarnes and show her some love!

Transcript

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There's going to be some education researcher listening to this. Like what? Now this girl went in, she went in applied. Like I've just been listening because Kemi never said anything about education. So my question is to the black woman, the education researcher that's listening to you right now, you know, and who is like on the wait list or been thinking about it and not sure. And she shoots her shot. She gets in to get that grant. What would you tell her to help make sure that she gets the most out of the program? So she ends up where you are grounded, clearer ready. You are listening to your unapologetic career. Being a woman of color faculty in academic medicine who wants to make a real difference with your career can be tough. Listen, these systems are not built for us, but that doesn't mean we can't make them work for us. In each episode, I'll be taking a deep dive into one core growth strategy so you can gain confidence and effectiveness in pursuing the dream career you worked so hard to achieve. All you have to do is tune in to your unapologetic career with me, your host, Kemi Dole, physician, surgeon, researcher, coach, and career strategist for an always authentic, sometimes a little raw, but unapologetically empowering word. I keep it real for you because I want you to win. Hello, so I get so many questions along the lines of, How can I work with you? You're changing my life and I want more of this. And if you fall into that category and you are a woman of color, faculty member in academic medicine, public health, or allied fields, then just keep listening. Listen, are you building the academic career you want or hard at work checking boxes on everyone else's to-do list? A successful career doing the work you love doesn't mean you have to sacrifice your values, your family, or your joy. Stop trying to be everything to everybody and get to learning the strategies that will 3x your productivity, hone your passions into funded projects, and create the career you worked so hard to achieve. If you've been to every career development and professional development workshop that sounded great but didn't actually deal with the kind of institutional pressures you face, if you're working hard but somehow stuck in inefficiency, putting everyone else's priorities first, if you spent years trying and sacrificing to become academic faculty. And here you are still working nights and weekends on the projects you care most about. I'm here to tell you that you can walk away from this institutional mindset forever and take control of your career with clarity and strategy. Every day, I help women of color faculty of all career levels in academic medicine, like you, reframe and recreate their academic life so that they can channel their ideas, passions, and skills into grant-funded work with institutional support and sustainability. And that is why this episode is brought to you by Get That Grant, our six-month high-performance coaching program for high-achieving women of color faculty in academic medicine who are ready to reclaim career control and secure grant funding doing the work they love. In Get That Grant, we help you kick imposter syndrome to the curb for good so you lead your career with clarity and confidence. You learn productivity and strategy skills for grants and papers to maximize your chances of success without wasting your time, abandoning your passion, or working yourself into the ground. We help you build the foundation for an amazing and fulfilling academic career, changing your life and the lives of everyone your work will touch. Yes, this future is possible for you and it's waiting on you to make the first step. If you are ready for career success without sacrifice, I encourage you to join our waitlist at chemidol.com backslash grant. After you join the waitlist, you'll be notified when the next Get That Grant cohort will be enrolling. Your application process will include an in-depth career foundations assessment, helping you identify the gaps in your foundation that are holding you back from enjoying the career you worked so hard to achieve. No more secret worrying that the career you want isn't really possible. This career assessment will show you exactly where you need to focus to level up your your impact. Join the waitlist today to get in line. Visit chemidol.com backslash grant to sign up. Talk to you soon. Hello, hello. Welcome to the podcast, Tia. I'm so excited to have you. Thank you so much for having me, Kemi. I'm excited to be here. Absolutely. So first, let's just get started with the basics. I'd love for you to tell our community, who are you? Where do you work? What is the good work that you are doing in the world? Well, I'm actually an education researcher. So my background is in special education. And I am currently working at the University of Delaware in human development and family studies. sciences, and my work focuses on the social and emotional well-being of minoritized student populations with a particular focus on African-American students. So I remember when you applied to get that grant and I remember when I read your application and I was, so I am deeply intrigued. I want to know more. Like, please tell me that somebody is coming to save these children. Please help my children in these schools and all this stuff. I was like thinking, I was so excited. But then I was like, this is not really academic medicine or public health. So let me clarify, let me reach out to her. So at this point, I'm really curious personally to know what was it that drew you even to just apply? understand you're in the program. We're going to talk more about that, but what is it that drew you to just apply, even though you probably heard me say 8 million times academic medicine and public health, and you were like, I don't care. I'm putting my hat in there. So can you talk to us a little bit about that? So my initial, I guess, exposure to the amazing Kevi Dole, it was through the podcast. And so my sister introduced me to the podcast. She said, you know, I'm editing a podcast. So my sister's Colette McKenzie Yeah. Shout out to Colette. I'm sorry. I have no chill about Colette. Continue. And so she introduced me to the podcast because she said, I'm editing this podcast and it seems like the things that are being talked about in this podcast are a lot of the things that you complain to me about. So you may want to take some time to listen to it. And so I said, okay. I checked out the podcast and I loved it. I would find myself going on walks listening to all the episodes, hearing about the program and thinking, oh my goodness, this is something that I definitely would love to be a part of. But it says academic medicine and public health and allied fields, and that doesn't quite seem to be the type of work I'm doing. But eventually, as things were happening in my own life and I felt like this is the type of support I need, I figured I would just ask, see what came of it, because it felt like even though you don't necessarily focus on education researchers, the things that you were talking about that were related to academia very much felt close to my heart. And it was very relevant. What I was going through, the advice was very relevant. And so I figured that there was definitely something I could get out of the program. And I'm really glad that I did it. Oh, I love it. Okay. Thank you for sharing that. I love it for a few reasons. I think it's an extension of a skill that we have to have as Black women in academia too, which is recognizing that a lot of things by name might not have been designed or built for us, but we can look and go, okay, well, this might not have been built for me, but I'm getting something out of this. That is for me. So I think we have to do that skill on just such a regular basis, like just going to work and being like, well, this space wasn't built for me, but I'm going to figure it out because I want to do this education research. So it's almost like I see that as an extension of something that we usually talk about in terms of a burden, because it does feel like constantly having to translate things back to how it would affect you translating advice back but in this case it's like something that you took on really on behalf of yourself no like I know that I can grow from this material so I'm gonna shoot my shot and I I love it and then the second reason I love it is because I have a friend who's a education policy researcher and we're constantly back and forth in the dms about like all the drama of academia so I know she's just laughing because she's like we have been like ranting for years and so it makes sense that there are some residents there but anyway thank you for sharing that and and And yeah, I think it's amazing the courage that you had and being like, let's do it and see how it goes. So having said that, you said you were listening to the podcast, going on walks, and everything was hitting. So I'm curious, what was going on with you when you really decided like, okay, I really am going to shoot my shot? What was not working despite your faculty position as an education researcher in a department that focused on that? So for me, I am now in my sixth year on the tenure track. And I had reached the point where I was about to go up for tenure. So I was preparing my packet to go out for review. And I found myself wanting to look for industry positions. So physicians after academia. And it was interesting because I'd reached a point where I'd won awards and I was in a good place. Yes. Henure didn't feel like it wouldn't happen and it still doesn't feel like it won't happen. I feel like it'll happen, but I just wasn't happy anymore. I wasn't really sure what I was doing in academia. And so with that, it was like, okay, you're submitting your files. Now is the time for you to really take some time, reflect, decide on if you want to stay in academia? And if not, what are you going to do next? And so I felt like this program would be a good opportunity for me to touch on those skills and those challenges that I've been having to see whether or not there were things that I could actually fix. Yes. Or if not, then find something else. I'm out. Yeah. You know, I appreciate you talking about your awards because I think that there was a way this conversation, especially around Black women in academics, women of color, in addition, more broadly, that kind of assumes that like, if you're unhappy, if you're at a place where you're like, I just need to leave. I don't want to do this anymore. It's like synonymous. with you failing. You're going to leave academics because you couldn't cut it. You're going to leave academics because you can't get your papers out. You're going to leave academics because, right, like it's not working out. And I feel a little bit like shouting like the emperor has no clothes because I'm like, it could not be the more opposite. What I encounter on a daily basis all the time is incredible Black women faculty succeeding, doing well, winning awards, expecting the tenure to come through. They can see all that they've done and Googling industry jobs, which should tell you something about how bad the environment is and should tell you something about how at the default, how much we do not equip and prepare faculty to be able to thrive. Because theoretically, if you're successful, that should be it, right? If you're turning in your tenure packet, like, you know, we're in good position, you should basically be set. And yet you and I know, because, you know, you've now been in our community, even in cohorts, how much those two things do not go together. And I just commend you. I commend you for not interpreting it as there's something wrong with me, but let me see if I can optimize this place any better before I jump ship. Because I know that we've been benefiting from your work. And so it would just be so sad if we couldn't in the future. But anyway, we'll come back to that. Okay. So now you're in. So you're like, okay, I shot my shot. Well, I don't know. I got in. I'm an education policy researcher, so it is what it is, right? Like I'm through the door. You can't kick me out. So I'm wondering, you get into the community, you start doing the lessons. Can you share with us something in that process? Could have been at the beginning, could have been at the end that did shift for you where you were like, you did find something that you were looking for, kind of beyond what you were getting on the podcast. Oh, yeah. I got benefit immediately. So just from that first module. For me, one of the things that resonated the most was owning my value, which within those space and within the work that I was doing, I think I had reached a point where I'd done all the things that I was supposed to do to get to where I was, but I still didn't feel as though I was being valued by my university. I still didn't feel as though the things that I was contributing were really valuable outside of just trying to get those accolades. But then going through that first module really helped me to center myself in what's my purpose? Why am I here? Actually, the things that I am doing are important regardless of what anyone says, like regardless of what whoever says. Yes, exactly. And so with that, and just to think for me, where else could I do this work? Where else could I impact? And for me, it was in academia. And so that I think really solidified for me, this is where I want to be. Now, what are the things that I'm going to put in place to help me grow and feel as supported as possible? Yes, I love that. So what do you have now in place? What do you have have now that you've embarked on coaching that you went through this journey that you didn't have when you started? What are some of those things? Definitely my purpose mantra that I think is a big one. I go back to that a lot as things come up and happen. I go back and take a look and remind myself of why I'm here and encourage myself with that. One of the other things that has come up has been just the confidence in saying the things and then creating opportunities and choosing opportunities that are going to move me towards that purpose. That has been a big one as well. And even the process for grant writing has been very beneficial. When I first started my position, I was doing both a position as a faculty member and also as a soft money researcher. So as a researcher, the big thing was you need to get grant funding. And so the way that that was presented was just you need to get grant funding. There was nothing else. Go get it. Exactly. Nothing in terms of strategy, et cetera. And so I spent a lot of time and a lot of energy that now I look back and I'm like, that was just wasted time and energy. There was no way that I was going to be successful with the way that I was pumping out grants and it really did lead to some burnout. And so, yeah. So now being in this program and learning these strategies that I'm still kind of like, why didn't anybody tell me this along the way? I know, I get that a lot. People are like, what in the world? Like, how come nobody ever laid it out like this? And I'm like, I don't know. I know that this works. So you should try it this way. Exactly. Yeah. I have a couple of follow-ups. I think one question I want to ask you, Tia, is you said, I have more confidence in those notes. And I want you, I would love for you to break down a little bit. Where is that confidence coming from? Why do you think you have more confidence in those notes? Because we all know we have to say no. It's everywhere. Everybody says But everybody feels the same thing. I'm like, how do you feel confident about it though? Right? There's a reason why people keep saying yes. So I'm curious if you think about your before and after, what is that confidence? What's that difference that you feel? Yeah. Well, the first I think is being clear on what is the work that I want to do? What's my purpose here? And so when I'm saying no, it's usually because something's not aligned. Those are the easier notes. Yes. I feel confident in saying this is not really aligned with what I want to do. But hold on, I want to pause there because you said that easily, but I just want to pause there because what you're saying is, regardless of the shine, regardless of the ask, regardless of how simple it is or how quick it is, right? All these ways, the ways they try to get you, right? Regardless of all those things, regardless of who is asking, the first thing, your first filter is, does this align with my purpose mantra? Does this align with the work I came here to do? Because if it doesn't, it's a no. And that's just, I'm done. That's what I hear you saying, right? Yeah. That's exactly what I'm saying. Because I found myself in a lot of things where it was like, oh, this is just going to be an hour here, or this is just this limited amount of time. And those pile up quickly, quickly. What were you doing before? How are you approaching that decision before? I would do hopeful thinking. So that's right. Yeah. Like, I hope it's okay. I hope it's okay. It would be like, oh, well, this is going to start in three months. And I'm like, okay, you know, right now I'm booked. But I might have, I will magically be free. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Yes. That future one is yes. I heard on a podcast when somebody was like, now I just say, if I ever catch myself being like, well, I don't want to do it now, but it's for six months from now, it should be fine. I asked myself, like, if I don't want to do it today, the answer is no, because in six months, turns out I'm the same person. Turns out not that much has changed. So I just, that was an Achilles heel for me for a long time. I feel like just recently I've gotten better at being like, you know, what? No, it doesn't matter if it's eight months from now, it's still a no. Yeah. I love that. Okay. So that's that confidence of like that purpose mantra alignment. And then you were going to continue with the other considerations. Yeah. I think the other consideration was really that owning your value piece. Because in a way, a lot of times I was saying yes, because I wanted to prove that I was a good colleague. I deserve to be here. I can do all of the things, look at all the things that I can juggle and say, great. And so once I put that to the side and just accepted that I am supposed to be here, I am doing great work and not needing that validation anymore, that also helped with my no. Yes, absolutely. It's an internal thing that, as you mentioned, it creates a very tangible, different experience. what you're describing is like, I know my value. I own my value. I know that I'm here. But when that is resulting in you saying a whole bunch more no's, you look a couple of weeks, a couple of months down the line and your schedule is literally different because those meetings aren't there. Those tasks aren't there. And that breathing room to be able to spend more time on what you do love now changes your experience again because now you spent time in the thing that you love. So your week literally feels different. And I think sometimes I know people love a good, just tactic, like just do this for your day, you know, just do this for prioritization. And, and I know, you know, this, I tell people like, we're going to start woo woo y'all because the thing is like this internal stuff is internal work is what will change your tangible external experience in a durable way, not in a, like a temporary way. And you just like jumped into that full force and I love to see the outcome of it. Oh yes. I'm all for the woo woo. I think it's, it's really important. And so, yeah, I'm glad that it started off like that. It made a lot of sense and it really set me up for the rest of the program to be able to go through with mindset shift. So exactly, exactly. So let's talk about one more before and after, which is the grant writing. So you were talking about how you look back after going through the grant writing phasing phase, excuse me, other program, you kind of look back and we're like, well, I just wasted. And I know that feeling where you're like, well, you know, it just, it hurts a little bit, right? To be like all that effort. So if there's one way you could kind of encapsulate, if you had to describe like what it was like to be physically in the grant writing pre and now physically in the grant writing post, get that grant, how would you describe it to folks in terms of the experiential change? I felt like before when I was writing grants, I was pretty much just throwing things out there and hoping that something would fit. So for each call, it would be a different grant that I'm creating for them. Sometimes in the end, I'd be like, I'm not even sure. I'd be glad sometimes when it didn't get funded because I didn't want to do that anyway. Yes, you're speaking secrets. Yes. So many people are like, oh, yep, that's me. Just relaxed when that rejection comes through. Like, oh my God. Exactly. Exactly. If anyone reached out and they wanted me on a grant, okay, it's a grant. I'll do it. I'm probably thinking through how that would help my research trajectory. Whereas now it's more intentional. It's like, I already know what grants I'm going to sit this year. Yes. Yes. And I know areas it'll be covering and I know how it's going to move my work forward. And so that is a wonderful feeling. And I also don't feel the rush and just feeling as frantic about, oh, I need to just get as much out. It's like, no, I already know these are the things I'll be working on. I've given myself the time to really focus in and work on them. And it shows in your balance. I mean, it shows in how you move because people are like, well, you should really focus. It helps in your boundaries too. Because it's like, again, going back to those no's like, oh, can you? And you're like, oh no, I have a plan. No, that doesn't, that does not fit in with the plan. And in case anybody's wondering, yes, we have structures around thinking about the unexpected great opportunity because sometimes I call them shortcuts. Sometimes they pop up. But even being able to recognize what is a shortcut versus what is a distraction will save you. And so that groundedness is just beautiful because how I think of it, Tia, is like you've done all the work to earn the stability, right? It's like we all work so hard to earn the tenure, to earn the award, It's to earn all that. And then I think we get so frustrated, especially pre any kind of professional development process like this is because, you know, I work my butt off. I checked all those boxes. I did all that. Why don't I feel like stable? I don't mean relaxed. Like I don't have to work at all, but like, you know, how come I don't have that sense, a greater sense of structure and security about what I'm doing. And I think that's what you're describing. If I could put words in your mouth, I apologize. It's like this shift from I'm successful, but Googling other jobs, because this is not sustainable to I'm successful and I'm clear about how I'm moving forward. And there's a groundedness and a clarity and a lack of chaos around me that makes me see this career as a long-term thing that I am now excited about. Would you say that is accurate since I just put words in your mouth? No, that is so accurate. That is definitely the shift that happened with me. I love it. Okay. So... There's going to be some education researcher listening to this. Like what? I thought she wouldn't apply. Like I've just been listening because Kevin never said anything about education. So my question is to the black woman, the education researcher that's listening to you right now and who is like on the wait list or been thinking about it and not sure. And she shoots her shot. She gets in to get that grant. What would you tell her to help make sure that she gets the most out of the program? So she ends up where you are grounded, clear, ready. I would definitely say allow yourself to be vulnerable in the program. come with your questions, come with your concerns, with things that you're trying to learn and definitely be open-minded as well. I feel like for me, for example, NIH is not the world that I live in as much, but I found myself talking with my buddies the other day and I'm like, tell me about these, these K awards and how do you, and you know, I'm seeing how my work could possibly fit into that. And so with being open-minded, I feel like it's opened up possibilities that I didn't think I could fit into before. I didn't find myself at any point in this program trying to see how I could fit within it. It just fit. The information that we were receiving, it was relevant. It made sense within the things that I was doing. I feel like I have some insider knowledge that I find myself using and doing. I've even had people say, hey, what is it? How do you do this? Or how is it asking questions? along the way. So I would definitely say that this is something that fits even if you're outside of academic medicine or public health. Thank you for kind of walking through that. Sometimes people ask me like, why do you keep saying academic medicine and public health? Like I listen to this and my sister listens to this and she's a lawyer and this and that. And I'm like, I can admit, I'm like, I think part of it is like an integrity thing where I'm like, listen, I know my background. I know where I came from. It has to do with that kind of like promise. Like I'm not trying to sell anybody something that like doesn't make any sense to them. And so I think I feel so strongly about being able to just be so clear that like, nope, I know your world and this world That's where those guardrails show up for me just personally is like, it's a comfort zone thing. So I'm working on it. I am working on it because a lot of people are yelling at me about it. So I'm working on it, but that's really where it came from, really out of just like an integrity piece. But what I learned from you being in the program is I learned a couple of things. One, I learned that because of the goal that I set out, which was to get to the root of the issue, the challenge, like thinking about mental Taurus, for example, and leaders. Instead of just thinking about this one scenario with this kind of leader and that, it's like, what is the root of why people don't have the best relationship they could have ostensibly with people who are supposed to be helping them? What are all the reasons why that gets messed up? And then how can I show people what those are, have them organize their relationships that way, and then help them? So I think because of that just deep desire to get to the root, it creates commonality. And I think that's what happened is that then people were like, oh, well, things look different on the surface for me, but underneath, yes, this is exactly what's going on when you're talking about this academic machine. So I learned that. So I'm grateful to you because I couldn't have learned that if you didn't have the courage to come into the program. So I'm grateful to even understand on a different level, the value of what we've put together. But then on top of that, I also learned how much you contributed to the community. So I also learned that when we do that, when we create a community where our commonalities are underneath the surface details, everybody is collaborating cooperating and contributing. And so I saw you peer coaching. I saw you helping people. And I'm like, yes, I agree with Tia. Listen to what she said. So that made me feel so good too. It's like a more diverse, maybe you can even say it that way, right? But then stronger and richer dialogue. So I'm just so happy. I'm so happy. I was so happy to have you. Education researchers now. Okay. Now you got to apply though. You got to tell, you got to apply. You can't just come, you got to come correct, but we will evaluate your application individually. And we are open. Anything else you want to share Tia before we wrap up? Well, I just want to say thank you for giving me that opportunity, seeing that I was an education researcher, but saying, you know, let's try this. Let's see how this works out. I think it's been so amazing. And the things that I've learned, honestly, are life-changing. I could definitely be in another field right now. Oh, I'm so happy to hear it. I'm so happy to hear it. And I'm excited. This is just the beginning. As you know, I say that I'm like, this is just the beginning. I'm so excited for the next phase of your career. Like all of this has been prologue. So I'm so excited of what it looks like, the ideas that come out, the work that comes out of this settled, calm, grounded Dr. Tia Barnes shoot. We're not ready. We're not even ready. I'm excited too. I can't wait to see what comes of it. All right. Take care. Have a great day. Bye. Bye. Thank you so much for listening with me today. I appreciate your time as I know it's so valuable. I hope this episode was helpful to you and I hope you feel energized to go out and claim your unapologetic career see you soon