Jessica Graham - The Connection Between Spirituality and Creativity

Jessica Graham explains the connection between Spirituality and Creativity in terms anyone can relate to and understand. She talks about: Radical Acceptance, Spiritual Bypassing, Compassion & Empathy, Translation Vs Transformation, Toxic Positivity, Growth Mindset, and how to create your own Nerf World!
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The author of Good Sex: Getting Off without Checking Out.
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I'm your host, Tony Angelini. Thanks for listening. Find out more at www.creativemindset.org

Transcript

Jessica Graham: 0:01

We need access to our full selves in order to make the art that the world needs. And that access to the full to our full self will continue to evolve and grow as we do. And our love which you were talking about, like really radically loving our full self, that's also something that we will do in perfectly. And that's that is radical. That is that is like, absolute self love when we can not love ourselves perfectly. And that's okay, too. But yeah, I think that those those, those themes are really important for us as as artists because you know, I, I can relate for myself, as well as many people I've worked with where it's like, trying to keep this part of me at bay, and I'm trying to shut down this part over here and I'm trying to pretend this part doesn't exist and my art is actually suffering as a result.

Tony Angelini: 0:52

You're listening to the creative mindset podcast. I'm Tony Angelini. Today we're talking with Jessica Graham. Now, I've been following Jessica for three or four years now on social media. And I have to say that her teaching has had a profound effect on my own personal journey of healing. Now, Jessica is a well sought after meditation teacher. And along with that she's an award winning actor and filmmaker. And this combination gives her kind of a unique insight on the subjects of spirituality and creativity. Jessica is also a sex relationship and spiritual guide for couples and individuals. She's grief and trauma resolution guide. She's an international speaker, and she's the author of "GOOD SEX: GETTING OFF WITHOUT CHECKING OUT." Her work can be found in many apps. I found her in simple habit, and publications. And she offers workshops and retreats at various centers internationally. She's a lovely person. And she spent some time with me to share her insight on the connection between spirituality and creativity. It's great to see you Jessica Graham. Jessica is a meditation teacher, and the author of good sex getting off without checking out, which is a pivotal book. It's amazing.Thanks for being here.

Jessica Graham: 2:18

Thank you for having me. It's my pleasure to be here and spend some time with you.

Tony Angelini: 2:22

Well, you know, one of the things I love about you, May I call you, Jessica, because we've never I mean, we've talked on the phone a few times.

Jessica Graham: 2:28

I prefer Jessica to Susan, you know?

Tony Angelini: 2:31

Yeah. As opposed to it. Yeah. Okay. As opposed to Ms. Graham.

Jessica Graham: 2:34

Yes, please don't. unless it's really your thing in which case, you know, go for it.

Tony Angelini: 2:41

Or jG? Anyway, just kidding.

Jessica Graham: 2:43

People, people do call me jG actually. do they? Yeah.

Tony Angelini: 2:46

The thing I love about you is that I just read off a bunch of your a bunch of aspects of your life, but they are kind of like branches in a whole plethora of creative outlets. So you're a meditation teacher, but and you're a writer, and you're a speaker, and you're a film actor, and you're a filmmaker, award winning in and you've achieved a lot of access and success and each one of those endeavors, but they all kind of what's beautiful about it to me is you have all these different branches in the tree, but they're all out of some foundational beliefs. You know, it's like what David Mamet says he likes to end a play with a surprising but inevitable ending. Mm hmm. So, all these branches are, like, inevitable and surprising at the same time.

Jessica Graham: 3:45

Well, well, thank you. I've never had anyone describe it quite like that. And I really, I really liked that and appreciate it. And, and yeah, that resonates. I mean, everything that I'm doing now I've done some version of my whole life.Even when I was really little. Obviously, I wasn't like, you know, doing couples coaching, but in a way I was, you know, in a way I was. There's, there's aspects of all this all of these branches of of me that absolutely return back to a single foundation. I really love the way that you put that.

Tony Angelini: 4:25

Thanks! if you were to put that foundation in words, what are some words that come to m ind?

Jessica Graham: 4:31

Well, one word s like I want to say wild. It's ot quite right. And it's not uite ferral, But it's something n there. I didn't have a raditional upbringing. Really n any way I didn't have a raditional education. I, I efinitely. I would say ometimes struggle to just to ind of be, quote unquote, ormal, because I, it's not the ay my brain is based on kind of hat kind of the sort of life hat I've had. And so I think he foundation is based on, like y own, like, my, my own path, ather than a path that anybody old me to take, I guess is one ay to put it. Another word is, ou know, something, something hat's coming up is just like, napologetic. Like, I, that's ind of always how I've been. nd I've had to learn to be ensitive, right? Because in the ast, that unapologetic nature, hile it could be really great or some people, it could ctually be really confronting n a not so great way for other eople. And so as I've gotten lder, and, you know, older and iser, I've learned to not close hat part of myself down, but nderstand how to utilize that art of myself in ways that are oing to be most of service in hatever it is that I'm working n. But there is still efinitely a part of me, like I ad a friend, not that long ago, ay, you know, I love about you, essica, you just do not care hat anyone else thinks. And to e, that's such a high ompliment. And I think that has o exist in the foundation. And hat's not, just to be clear, hat's not necessarily always a ood thing, right? Like, but it s why I do all the things I do, ecause nobody could say to me, essica, you have to do this, or ou can only do that or make a hoice. Like that's just not how roll. So it's been necessary o have that strong sense of, ou know, this is what I want, nd this is who I am, and you ind of got to deal with it.

Tony Angelini: 6:57

But you seem to have a keen understanding and respect for other people and where they're coming from and what motivates them. Do you know what I'm talking about?

Jessica Graham: 7:07

For sure, yeah, I mean, I have a deep love and acceptance for other human beings. And so I'm glad that comes across in the work that I do. And interestingly, in some ways, that deep love and that acceptance also has a foundation of I don't care. Because, you know, for example, for example, you know, my partner and I were recently watching THE NEWSROOM, an Aaron Sorkin show on HBO, and they go through these, like, you know, moments in time. And one of the moments in time was when Osama bin Laden was killed. And we're watching it. And you know, everyone's just so happy on the show. It's like such a moving incredible moment. And I just looked at my partner, I say, you know, when that happened, I was not happy. I was not cheering, I was not joyful. That's a human being. And maybe it's a human being that caused a huge amount of suffering and a huge amount of just tragedy. And I recognize that and it's not like, woohoo, let's celebrate him or, you know, raise him up, he needs consequences. And maybe that consequences death, I don't know. But I am not as a human other human being going to cheer and cry tears of joy, because someone's been killed. Most people do not share that view.

Tony Angelini: 8:33

Agreed!

Jessica Graham: 8:34

I mean, people that I like to spend time with do but most people in general, so me just saying that right now. It's like, there'll be people that hear this will be like, "What?" And so the kind of love that I am interested in is the kind of love that transcends good, evil, right, wrong. The kind of acceptance that I'm interested in is like the kind of acceptance that goes beyond my personal opinions, views, you know, patterning traumas that it goes much, much bigger than that. So I can't say that that's I am perfectly in that space all the time. But that's what I moved towards. That's, that's the true north. And so even in that kind of love and acceptance and respect that you're talking about, there is a foundation of,"Like it or not, this is how I am."

Tony Angelini: 9:24

Right! Well, that's great. But what you're talking about is are you talking about as far as transformation in your book, there's this beautiful description of translation versus transformation. Oh, yeah, excuse me for pausing. I was trying to read my own handwriting. You know, in translation is I think you said is a common pitfall that when people engage in self improvement, and making forward movement, translation can be a pitfall and you said that transformation is the goal.

Jessica Graham: 10:01

Yeah.

Tony Angelini: 10:02

Is that related? Yeah. Can you talk about that?

Jessica Graham: 10:05

Yeah, absolutely. And just to just to be very clear, you know that that comes from the great philosopher Ken Wilber, I that phrasing of, you know, transformation versus translation. That's where I where I got that.

Tony Angelini: 10:20

Okay.

Jessica Graham: 10:21

Yeah, I think it does, I think it does relate. So, you know, we can translate our beliefs, our views into a more loving, accepting place, right? Like into a more spiritual way of being. And it's possible to really sort of extend that out in the way that you talk or the way that you dress or, you know, the, whatever the brands that you use, but the transformation is something that's much deeper, and that may not even be available on the outside, you might not even, you might not even know that that person is, is coming from that perspective. I do think that there's a lot of, there's a lot of spiritual bypassing that happens. And I've certainly been I've certainly found myself in that place in the past, it's something that I'm very passionate about with myself and with with students or clients, that idea of not spiritually bypassing, which is something that happens can happen when you're translating rather than transforming. I think another example is that I've seen is, you know, sometimes when folks are making a big sort of life change, maybe it's getting sober or something along those lines, there can be a translation into whatever sort of group or religion or sort of dogma is available for that, you know, for that move. But there comes a point where even that needs to be just part of the transformation rather than something that we're we've translated ourselves into. And that's, you know, in my opinion, you know, it doesn't have to be anyone else's opinion, but you know..

Tony Angelini: 12:05

It's a good opinion, I share that opinion. And the reason I connected the translation aspect of self improvement with the Osama bin Laden thing is because of something you said in the book... this book is fucking great.

Jessica Graham: 12:24

Thank you, Tony.

Tony Angelini: 12:25

GOOD SEX.

Jessica Graham: 12:26

Thank you.

Tony Angelini: 12:27

You mentioned that a common pitfall with translation, when you make the dogma when you become dependent on the dogma is you... It's like the when... it's like the common joke about once you quit smoking, then you know better than everybody else, and you got to get everybody else to quit smoking.

Jessica Graham: 12:44

Yeah.

Tony Angelini: 12:44

Right? So I made that connection with translation to what you said about Osama bin Laden. I think that if we reach our highest self, we can obtain some sympathy and forgiveness for people who do inhumane things.

Jessica Graham: 13:04

Absolutely.

Tony Angelini: 13:05

That doesn't mean we let them off the hook as far as consequences.

Jessica Graham: 13:10

Absolutely.

Tony Angelini: 13:11

But it doesn't mean we can delight in... it's like, I heard in a podcast, you were talking about Louis CK. And how his career was destroyed. Now, I don't know how he's doing recently. The consequences for his actions are separate from... you can still have sympathy and empathy for somebody who did something pretty outrageous, pretty harmful.

Jessica Graham: 13:41

Yeah, I would say you can, I would say for me, it's compassion, right? Like more in his case. And in the case of Osama bin Laden, it's like, it's more of a compassion than a sympathy or an empathy. Just in my terminology. For some people, those words are interchangeable. But for me, it's like compassion kind of compassion goes beyond the personal whereas empathy and sympathy kind of denote like a sort of understanding on a personal level, and I can't understand on a personal level, why Louie CK would do that or why Exactly. Osama Bin Laden...I mean, actually, I can understand personally, if I look at the big picture and look at culture and look at the world and look at history, Well, okay, then there starts to be a different understanding of it. But yeah, I do see what you're what you're what you're saying now about the the translation and the transformation. You can translate into someone that's loving and accepting or you can transform into somebody that's loving and accepting. And that's a lifelong process. That's the other cool thing about transformation. And, you know, creativity is actually that it's a lifelong journey and spirituality and sexuality, all of these things that are important to me. There is no end point. There's no like,"Alright, I've done it. It's over. Like I've transformed!" No, it's like it's this ongoing, wild magic mystery Carpet Ride. That's... and I don't know what happens when we die. Who knows what I mean? I don't what happens then maybe it continues in some whole other way? I don't know.

Tony Angelini: 15:18

Yeah, don't trust anybody who says they do. Because we don't. I am. Yeah, I haven't been doing much lately, given the pandemic. An d see all thi stuff is foundational to what

Jessica Graham: 15:24

Yeah. We can't. And, you know, but I would say I'm a little more than an want to actually end up with which is how all this relates t your creative work. Again, w talked about [how] you're writer and a speaker and teacher, which is creative, an but you're also in, you know your film actor. You're model amateur. I'm a little more than an amateur, because I do get I right do get paid, but I wouldn't say that. I'm like paying my bills with it. Yeah, I hear you. And you also have directed some films that have gotten some pretty nice accolades. Some... Yeah, yeah.

Tony Angelini: 16:16

Awards.

Jessica Graham: 16:17

Yeah, a film called Listen, and a film called into light. Both did pretty well in like the indie film festival circuit, and then I did a pilot for YouTube's women in comedy initiative, which Elizabeth Banks headed up and I was...

Tony Angelini: 16:33

Oh, you did?

Jessica Graham: 16:34

Yeah. So I was selected to do like one of the pilots. And that was fun. That's called "Groupies." That was fun because it was like on a set, which, you know, was like, set like it like walking into a friend set or something. It was very, very cool. I had like, two there were two cameras. It was pretty exciting. So yeah.

Tony Angelini: 16:54

So is there a connection though? That's good. That was a research fail this groupies thing.

Jessica Graham: 16:59

It's okay.

Tony Angelini: 17:00

You know, but the"Murder Made Easy", is something everybody's got to look at. Oh, my God. And But anyway,

Jessica Graham: 17:12

That's David Palamaro directed and I was one of the producers. And then I was the lead in that. And it's, it's a fun little tiny film with a big heart murder mystery. Sort of. Yeah, it's fun.

Tony Angelini: 17:25

So your work and your mindfulness studies and teaching and growth? What's the connection? Do they support each other? Does one support the other? Or are they just completely different planets?

Jessica Graham: 17:42

Absolutely same planet. So, you know I became very interested in meditation as a little kid, like when I was like, five or something. And...

Tony Angelini: 18:00

Yeah, like on your birthday. I read somewhere on your like, was it your fifth or sixth birthday? You wanted everybody to hold hands and meditate?

Jessica Graham: 18:07

Exactly. Yeah. It's like so amazing that a picture picture of that exists. I was so happy when I found that later in life. I have like a Mickey Mouse t shirt on or sweatshirt. Yeah, so, but I got really far away from it for all kinds of reasons. And I would just find myself in meditation every once in a while when I was like, in some very dark place or something like that. But it wasn't a regular part of my life. Creativity - I was very creative as a child, I started... like, I have journals from the time I was six and as soon as I could write, I was writing and I was creating plays that I was directing and starring in and choreographing dances and like I had a lot of siblings and so like, and friends and kids in the neighborhood, so I would get them all to like do my shows. When I was a kid, there weren't a lot of video cameras available. When we when there was one, I would certainly be interested in it, I think. I think maybe when I was 14,15 I think my sister was given a video camera was like a really big deal. And I was always doing like performances for the video camera. And I started doing plays when I was about 12. And I did theater. I mean, I've done theater since then, not as much in recent years, but I just did...

Tony Angelini: 19:31

Well Weren't you the artistic director of a..

Jessica Graham: 19:33

I was.

Tony Angelini: 19:34

...a theater project. I was a I was the artistic director of something called the Eternal Spiral Project, which was a women in theater initiative. And then I was also the producing artistic director of something called theatre catalyst which helps to get small companies started and then we also produce our own stuff as well. So yeah, I did a lot of theater before I moved to LA. So it was like all the creative stuff was continuing to happen. But at the same time, I was definitely becoming less and less happy, more and more stressed out. Basically, I, you know, I'm diagnosed with complex PTSD. And I was starting to really see the results of that in especially in my early 20s. But through my teen years, a lot of drugs and alcohol through my 20s a lot of drugs and alcohol, just trying to basically survive trying to medicate, you know, I started very young at like, 12, or something, because I really needed it. Like I really deeply needed something to reduce the pain and discomfort that I was in. And so I wasn't really plugged into my spiritual life. I mean, I was, as soon as I had a moment like in nature, I'd be like, Oh, right. But I wasn't, I wasn't that connected. And so my creative life, while it was rich and fulfilling, and all of that a lot of it was based on trying to get some sort of outside approval, trying to get some sort of you're good enough stamp, trying to get my dad to stop drinking, you know, you know, it was it was based on these other things, and not actually based on like the true love, which when I was a kid, it was like, just pure love of creating and, you know, being creative. And so what happened for me, when I really began my sort of self discovery spiritual journey in earnest is that I actually took a step back from my creative life, and really focused on my spiritual life and my sort of emotional well being and my recovery. And when I came back, in a bigger way to my creative life, it was very different. It was like, there was so much, sort of, so many layers of gunk that weren't there anymore. And so I was just experiencing my creative self and my creative expression in a much more pure way. And that was many years ago. And I will tell you, the journey continues. Because still, to this day, I'm finding ways in which my creativity is tangled up with bits of trauma. And I'm needing to unwind those bits of trauma so that those parts of my creative self can also awaken, right? because when we have trauma, and we're on a path of awakening, that trauma can create all kinds of blocks and sort of knots. And so it's something I love doing with others is helping to untangle trauma from awakening, and untangled trauma from creativity. It's something I do a lot with, with folks and have done a lot with myself, because for most artists, I know, there exists some trauma tangled up with their creativity. And so... Tell me about it.

Jessica Graham: 22:58

Yeah. So you know, and so it's like that process of continuing to heal and awaken and nurture and nourish the creativity, it all lives in the same sort of beautiful ever expanding planet, I guess you could say.

Tony Angelini: 23:15

Well, it's kind of almost, To me, it's almost like a chicken in the egg. Does, you know you're born with... everybody is born with a creative impulse. Right? And but what gets you to,,, what draws you to the video camera? Right? Is it the desire for self value from the people who are going to watch the movie you're doing? Or is it simply that the... Is it the search for meaning? Or is it that... in some cases, I find working in the theater for over 20 years, it's that you have very centered, very mentally healthy people, which is a spectrum, right, there's no really Health...

Jessica Graham: 24:03

Wouldn't that be nice?

Tony Angelini: 24:05

Health meter. But you know, and then they... if you get a... if you, if you get a success, let's say Off Broadway. The reason that's a good thing is because you've... it's meaningful for a lot of people and it means, you know, some financial success as well. And it's very easy to equate that with personal value. Now again, I'm not that familiar with the film world, so I'm going to speak theater since you do too, you know, so what comes you know, it's kind of a chicken in the egg thing. What comes first, the dysfunction, or the draw to creativity? And I know I'm hitting you with some strange stuff.

Jessica Graham: 24:51

I love it! It's great! My belief, I don't know if it's true, but my belief is our inherent blueprint is that of creative, joyful, radiant beings.That's what we are. And creativity can be anything, it can be how you work your Excel spreadsheet to the Sistine Chapel. Creativity is... We are creativity, we literally are creativity. This is why I work with sexual energy and creative energy as one in the same. I mean, many people work with it that way, not just me, it's like, because it is one of the same. We are a creation, right. And so my, my sincere sense won't say belief, but my sense is that we are inherently creative in a joyful, free, radiant, healthy, all the way to the other side of the health meter healthy way. And life happens to us. And for some of us, life is happening while we're in the womb, you know, life is, for some of us, we are coming in with generational trauma, or we are coming in addicted to a drug or, you know, we are coming in having lived inside the womb of someone who was incredibly stressed out or was being abused or something like this, right? Like some of us come in with a heavy load. One of my healers, likes to say that about me, she's like, "You came in with a heavy load, Jessica!", and so it may be in that case, that already there's a sense of the creativity, the creative part of us, and the trauma being interlaced, I don't know. But I do think that as we resolve our traumas, as we resolve our grief, that what is there is what's always been there. And that's, that's the way it seems to me, that's the way it seems to me.

Tony Angelini: 26:53

Well, agreed. And there's a lot to what you just said. And that's something that I would like more people to explore. And part of getting there is... there's a lesson... you teach a lesson by example, without ever explicitly putting it into words. And again, in your book, GOOD SEX. You know, you're very open and honest about some very intimate things. Reading, and I listened to it on Audible as well, reading it and listening to it. It was interesting, but it was no surprise. You know, and so if, and why am I saying that? Because somebody who works in the business, theater or film, it can be very well produced down to the second is planned for perfection. And if you could get to a point where you can just be with your.. who you are, I don't even want to say imperfections, because I don't even think imperfections exists. I only think that circumstances do. And so what I'm getting at is a term that you use, and I want to know if I'm using this correctly, a way to get to that point is a term you use called"radical acceptance." Am I on the right track?

Jessica Graham: 28:14

I think so. Yeah. Yeah. So radical acceptance, there's actually a great book from Tara Brock with that title, "Radical Acceptance". And, you know, you touch on something when you talk about imperfections. I believe that any sort... of any healing journey, including, and not just a healing journey, but any just journey, let's say journey of creativity, of spirituality, whatever, includes all kinds of selves that pop up, you know, there's like the one that's like," I'm the best", and then"I'm the worst", and like, you know, and everything in between, right? And what can happen is we can decide, well,"I like this self or that self better" . And so that's the one that I'm going to put forward, I'm going to push all the other ones down, you know, I'm going to, I'm going to exile or exclude the parts of self, that don't fit into my idea of who I am or how I am in the world, or what I do. And that can work for a little while, but eventually, it really, it really doesn't. And those parts of self in one way or another show up and they tend to show up in disjointed and, you know, dysfunctional and ultimately, they show up in ways that are creating suffering. And so the radical acceptance, to me is about "Can I fully accept" and not just accepted but love all these parts of self, especially the parts of self that are causing the problem, right, the part that can't stop drinking or the part that keeps cheating on their wife or the part that, you know, just eats a whole cake, even though they promised themselves yesterday that they were going to go on a diet or whatever, right? Like these parts of self that we are trying to recover, or we're trying to meditate away, or we're trying to, like, self help away, can we actually see and love those parts of self as they are first? Because that's the only way that the actual transformation happens, by the way, like, in my experience, it's like, it doesn't come through, like "Get down bad self go away!" It just doesn't work that way. Sometimes, every once in a while, you got to like kind of like, lovingly push through something, but for the most part, like the taskmaster or the critic, you know, they don't really work long term. And if you do keep them going long term, there are consequences. And so that radical acceptance comes in, you know, with all the parts of self that come up and creativity with all the parts of self that come up in spirituality and sexuality. And by the way, they tend to be really similar, if not the same, you know, and so, yeah, the more that those pieces of self can be seen, loved and integrated, the happier healthier, you know, more more back to that like radiant, free creative being you become.

Tony Angelini: 31:22

Amen, beautifully said. And if we can bring that acceptance to the manifestation of our creativity, whatever that is a painting or performance or a composition, it will become more meaningful, in the same way that again, in your book, you talk about your relationship with your father, and there were sweet parts, as well. And there were dysfunctional parts, you know, and the non literal lesson seems to be, you just accept who you are. You know, and if you can accept it and love it... this morning, I was I went to simple habit, like I do every morning. And I said, "Okay, I'm going to be talking with Jessica today. So they get to one of her meditations." And there's a series you do on gratitude. And I went straight to the episode, cuz I've been through the whole series, like three times now. So I went straight to the episode on gratitude for challenges. You know, we all have things that happen to us that you might consider bad or harmful. And you're saying in this episode to be grateful for that? And if you can be grateful for that, how transformational is it to actually achieve being grateful for that circumstance?

Jessica Graham: 32:47

Yeah. So I just want to be really clear that that is, it's an intention, it's an ideal, right?. And for somebody listening, who's you know, going through treatment for cancer, or just lost, you know, the love of their life or something like this, I would by no means say, All right, now, be grateful, be grateful for, you know, losing all your hair, or be grateful for the fact that you're sleeping alone after 30 years. You know, like, that's, that is not what I would say and there's always gratitude to be found, especially if we're tuned to it. Especially if it's something we're paying attention to, just like anything else, we're paying attention to something, if we're looking for something, we will find it. And so if you're, you know, for example, going through cancer treatment, and you're looking for all the ways that life is horrible, and all the ways that, you know, you can't count on anything, and you know, then you're going to keep seeing it, you just are. Whereas if you're looking for the spots that you can be grateful for, even if they're far and few between, you're going to start seeing more of that. So just want to start there. I'll also say that it's 100% possible to be grateful, even for the most awful things. And in some ways, it's practice. And I'll share for me personally, I've actually become pretty good at finding gratitude for like the big bad things, bad things. And I can click into it pretty fast. Like I remember a number of years back being rolled into the ER, and I ended up spending like five days there and I was just immediately in gratitude. Like, I was like, I wonder if this was the graduates like I wonder what's going to come from this. I wonder what I'm gonna...

Tony Angelini: 34:43

Oh really!

Jessica Graham: 34:44

I wonder how this is gonna serve me or the people I serve. Like, that's where my mind went. It was going there between that and like, "Oh my god! This is horrible! Give me drugs!" But it was a pretty it's practiced. What I'm not quite as good at Is the little things like I've been booking travel for me and most of my family to go to my brother's wedding in Mexico in December, given, you know, the world is in a place where that can happen. And it's really hard to book travel just for me, like, I'm like, it's like figuring out the flights, figuring out where I'm staying. Like, it's not something that I enjoy. It's not something that I'm that good... I mean, I don't think I don't feel like I'm good at it. And by that, I mean I'm not good at not suffering while I do it. And I've been doing it for my own family. And I've been having these days where I'm just like"Grrr!". And it's funny that we're having this conversation because I actually... this happened last night with a client, we were talking about gratitude. And I was like, Oh, yeah, I got to practice gratitude with this travel thing. And now you're saying, and I'm like, "Oh, yeah, I gotta practice gratitude." And obviously, there's tons to be grateful for my family and I are going to go on this trip, we're going to be in a beautiful place, my brothers getting married, like, I have the finances to be able to go. So my family does, like the ones that don't, the other ones can support like with the trip, like there's so much like, I'm healthy enough at this point that I feel confident I can get on the plane, I might have to spend time in bed while I'm there, probably. But I'll be able to be there. And I'll be surrounded by my family. And so there's a lot on that level to be grateful for. And then on the deep, even deeper level. It's like the gratitude for going through the experience that I just outlined the gratitude for, oh, wow, I was suffering. This morning, when I was talking to my mom, I was suffering. And I'm not now and I have a deeper understanding of suffering. And I have an experience of awakening out of that suffering. And that's a whole other level of gratitude. And I could go on, but that gives you, that gives you a sense.

Tony Angelini: 37:02

Right, right. Well, I mean, and that's completely different then... there's a concept, actually a book called MINDSET by Carol Dweck,

Jessica Graham: 37:17

Uh-huh.

Tony Angelini: 37:17

She's a psychologist. Are you familiar with it?

Jessica Graham: 37:20

Yeah.

Tony Angelini: 37:20

Yeah. Right. So what you just talked about was a growth mindset. Yes. You know, you looked at that and said, What can I learn from it? As opposed to saying, "Oh, well, you can always find something to be grateful for that." Because that's kind of a false growth mindset. Oh, my God, I love that. I've never heard that term.

Jessica Graham: 37:45

Yeah. Toxic positivity. There's so much of it in the spiritual community, too. It's like, it's like...

Tony Angelini: 37:51

Right.

Jessica Graham: 37:51

Yeah. And people really use it to judge themselves. You know, it's like this idea that if you were, if you were really spiritual, or if you were by sea, and like the coaching community as well, it's like, if I were actually a good coach, and I wouldn't be having this problem, and it's like, no, you're a human being you happen. You have this job that you're good at, and you're a human being like, so...

Tony Angelini: 38:13

yeah.

Jessica Graham: 38:13

,,,toxic...

Tony Angelini: 38:13

So learn from the failures, learn from, you know, quote, failures, right? And then you become, you know, bulletproof.

Jessica Graham: 38:22

Yeah. Or...

Tony Angelini: 38:23

What do you call it? Anti-fragile?

Jessica Graham: 38:25

Yes, or nerf? I like to think of it as a nerf world. And actually, my good friend and my colleague, Michael Taft, he said that to me early on in my meditation, you know, journey. I was explaining, you know, something that was happening, he's like, yeah, it's like nerf world. It's like, it's all happening, but you're not... nothing's puncturing you. Nothing's wounding you. It's just like, everything kind of flowing around.

Tony Angelini: 38:49

Yeah, in fact, you almost get better at it. You almost get better because of it. It's like somebody's throw..., you know, trying to shoot you with energy, but that energy only makes you stronger.

Jessica Graham: 39:05

Yeah,

Tony Angelini: 39:05

It makes you stronger, because you're learning from it.

Jessica Graham: 39:08

That's right.

Tony Angelini: 39:09

Can you tell me what you meant? You mentioned something earlier before What did you mean by spiritual bypassing?

Jessica Graham: 39:16

That can that can look a lot like, "I don't like this emotion or this aspect of my personality, therefore, I'm going to pretend like it doesn't exist,", or "I'm going to use my spiritual practice, to deconstruct it to the point where it's not causing me any suffering, but it's actually still going." It's actually still happening. I'm just economizing it, supposedly, to the point where I don't notice it, but it's still there. So those are those are some examples. It's a tricky one. And it's why it's really helpful when you're on any sort of spiritual path or just like path of healing, to have people who know you and know what's happening. For you and can pointed out, like, Hey, I think maybe like, I've definitely been called Spock before. Oh, have you? Yeah. Which partially is me, like, that's partially how I am to some extent. But there's also a part of me, especially in the past, where I would really lean on that tendency as a way not to have to be vulnerable with you, and not to necessarily take in what was happening for you. And so that, that's an example of how I might. And I, I'm happy to say that it really doesn't happen that way anymore, because I've put a lot of attention on it over a bunch of years. But it was something that happened, where I could kind of just like, just step back, and just not affected. And I don't care if you're affected. And it's all just fine. Which, you know, is also some, it's a coping mechanism as well, from a PTSD coping mechanism, as well as maybe partially just how my, my brain is, and partially a spiritual bypass. So there can be layers there, for sure.

Tony Angelini: 41:17

Well, I definitely understand that. I empathize with that. And, and I could see what you mean by it being a coping mechanism.

Jessica Graham: 41:26

Yeah.

Tony Angelini: 41:26

You know, it's like, "That doesn't affect me, everything...", but you get, you know, it won't go away.

Jessica Graham: 41:34

That's right.

Tony Angelini: 41:35

And the more it persists, the tighter you try to hold on to the idea that everything's okay.

Jessica Graham: 41:44

That's right.

Tony Angelini: 41:45

Right?

Jessica Graham: 41:45

That's right. Yeah, and when you have when you have like a really strongly formed spiritual identity it can become very challenging. This is why you sometimes see, like, teachers, big spiritual teachers have a have a big fall, because, like, they've gotten to this point where it's like, I have to be this at all times. But actually, all this is happening. So I'm going to act out in all these ways. And, you know, ultimately, it doesn't, it doesn't work. So, yeah, it's important, it's important. And I think, you know, I do really think as artists, it's important to be aware of it as well, because, you know, we need, we need access to our full selves, in order to make the art that the world needs. And that access to the full to our full self will continue to evolve and grow as we do. And our love which you were talking about, like really radically loving our full self, that's also something that we will do in perfectly. And that's, that is radical, that is that is like, absolute self love, when we can not love ourselves perfectly. And that's okay, too. But yeah, I think that those those, those themes are really important for us as as artists, because you know, I, I can relate for myself, as well as many people I've worked with, where it's like, trying to keep this part of me at bay, and I'm trying to shut down this part over here, and I'm trying to pretend this part doesn't exist, and my art is actually suffering as a result.

Tony Angelini: 43:22

Yeah, I've seen that a lot. In the theater, people are amazing performers. And then as soon as they exit the stage door, they're just completely drawn inward, They don't want anybody to see them and I think it stems from not loving yourself for who you really are.

Jessica Graham: 43:44

Yeah. And I mean, it can look different for different people, you know, I mean, what self love is, for one person might be something really different for someone else, you know?

Tony Angelini: 43:55

Sure.

Jessica Graham: 43:55

But I do think that for myself, anyway, the more deeply that I've explored what this activity of Jessica is, and the more I've come to accept the various movements of this activity and the ways in which this activity, dances with others and is part of a whole, the more my creative expression has flourished. You know, I like the last few films that I've done as an actor are the best, best is the best work I've done, you know, and that's not a coincidence. You know, the, the films that I'm working on now are aligned with not just what I find interesting, but they're aligned with me on deeper levels as well. And that means that what's going to be expressed on the screen is going to be that much richer, and you know, yes, I've been Doing acting class and developing and all these different ways and doing projects and getting experienced. But I do think that the healing and the, you know, awakening and the love and the acceptance they have, they have a lot to do with what ends up expressing when I'm working.

Tony Angelini: 45:19

Everything we've been talking about for the last 45 minutes... Is that what that person said by you just don't care? Right?

Jessica Graham: 45:29

I mean, I think...

Tony Angelini: 45:30

see how my mind works.

Jessica Graham: 45:33

Think so. I mean, it was someone that knew me intimately. And I took it as a real compliment, and I think it does, I think it does encapsulate all of that. It's a compliment, that doesn't mean that it's necessarily all all good, right? Like a compliment can also be "And I see these parts of you, too.", these other parts, right? Like, I want, I want people to see the people that I am intimate with the people that, you know, I spend my intimate time with, I want them to see as much of me as possible, and I want to see as much of them as possible.

Tony Angelini: 46:09

Not caring. I don't think that's a bad thing. I don't think that's a bad thing.

Jessica Graham: 46:14

It's just, it's just how you like, it's just what that means to you. To me...

Tony Angelini: 46:18

It's confidence.

Jessica Graham: 46:19

Sure, sure. And I think I think I do have confidence. It doesn't, that doesn't mean I don't have insecurities, but I think I think the years of not giving a fuck like the years of like, "I do whatever I want!", like built a kind of confidence that wasn't necessarily real. And then I had to kind of go through a process shedding that self that self that's like, Yeah, whatever. Um, and I did go through a period where I felt very insecure. Actually, it was weird, because it was a period that things were actually all going really well. And there was success occurring. But I was like, I don't have that self that thought everything... that that was just so tough anymore. Like, I'm just all like raw nerves now, oh, my God, what am I doing. And over the years, different kinds of confidence was cultivated, that isn't based on anything other than the confidence that I'm..I am. And I am in an of, and part of and held by and holding all of it. So there's complete confidence in that way. Not in the personal way, but an absolute sense,...

Tony Angelini: 47:46

Right.

Jessica Graham: 47:47

...and that comes through, you know, practice and experience. And it's also inside all of us right now. Like, there's no way it can't be because we are in the absolute sense, all part of that absolute confidence. I don't know how many times I can say the word absolute evidently, it's my word of the day.

Tony Angelini: 48:07

Absolutely! Well, I'll tell you, I could talk with you about this for the rest of the night. But I think people would do well to read your book, because it is about sex, but it's really about mindfulness in general. In my you know, am I maybe I shouldn't say that...

Jessica Graham: 48:31

I definitely use the word mindfulness, obviously. And I think it's limiting. Oh, do you? I mean, I use it. I mean, it's the name of my weekly class. I say I call it Mindful Awakening. But it's not strictly what I do personally, or what I teach. It's a it's a part of it, for sure. And that book, GOOD SEX is definitely rooted in mindfulness for sure. With tinges of other stuff. I think something that I can mention regarding sexuality, is that is just a little tip for anyone that's not already exploring this is that your sexual energy and your creative energy can absolutely feed each other. Like there's a reason why when you're first in love, and you got all those lust chemicals going that you feel like you can just like create a great piece of art or write the next great novel, or whatever. That energy is flowing, it's moving. And oftentimes if our sexual energy is blocked, our creative energy can be also be blocked. And to be very clear, to awaken your sexual energy, you don't have to have a partner, you don't even have to be interested in having sex. You can still connect with your sexual energy. And so I like to mention that because you know, what about someone who's on the asexuality spectrum or someone who's just, like, celibate for one reason or another That doesn't mean you can't connect with your sexual energy. And I first learned about that from a Buddhist nun. I was like, "I'm having all this sexual energy, and I want to have sex with everyone all the time.", And she's like, "Oh, yeah, I remember that for like the first five to 10 years of taking my vows. I felt that way." I was like, wow. And she's like, "Don't engage with the thoughts, but just getting to the energy, and then use it for your art." This was years ago, and I was just like, so blown away.

Tony Angelini: 50:23

Wow.

Jessica Graham: 50:24

Yeah, I was so blown away that it came from a Buddhist nun. And, you know, so thoughtful of her to be like, you're an artist, so you can use it. And, and you really can, I do have, I do have a guided practice, I'd be happy to share with your listeners, if you want me to send it to you, that helps you to activate the sexual energy and then direct it into your creativity.

Tony Angelini: 50:45

Well, that's generous. I'm not gonna say no to that. Thank you.

Jessica Graham: 50:49

Yeah, I'll send it to you

Tony Angelini: 50:50

I'm sure that would be very helpful. And maybe I made a mistake earlier. I tend to equate mindfulness with presence, are those the same thing, or no?

Jessica Graham: 51:01

You definately did not make a mistake at all. And I do see them as living in the same realm. And I think, you know, mindfulness can mean different things to different people. You and I are talking about the same thing.

Tony Angelini: 51:17

Okay, good.

Jessica Graham: 51:18

Yeah, for sure. I just think that, you know, well, I had one of my, I had my main teacher Shinzen. Young say to me about, I don't know, maybe three years ago, he said, I was in the midst of like, a very dark night, very dark night of the soul, like, classic. And I was talking about teaching, and I was talking about the sort of discomfort of teaching. And he's like, "Well, it's just that it's not you teaching anymore." He's like, "You've ceased being a mindfulness teacher, and you're, you're more, you're more of a Zen teacher. Now. It's not you that's teaching. And so it feels weird, because there's not a you a Jessica, the meditation teacher doing it anymore." And so I think of that as like, you know, one way to describe it, like, there are minor features, there are people who are like teaching techniques, which is what I did at one point, and then, you know, things continue to shift. It doesn't mean I might not still teach the same techniques, but it's, um, yeah, it certainly, there's a different feeling associated with it anyway. I don't know what comes across. But..

Tony Angelini: 52:30

I love that story. So we've talked a lot about mindfulness. And we've talked a lot about creativity, and we've, but I don't want to underplay the contributions that you're making with sex therapy and sex as it relates to spirituality. Again, this is a... I don't see anybody else talking about it. And I think it has the potential to do a lot of healing, or to guide a lot of people to healing. And so thank you for writing that book.

Jessica Graham: 53:02

Oh, yeah. Thank you for the acknowledgement. And, and yeah, the good news is, is that more people are talking about it. Now. When I wrote the book, there was very little out there, there was one other mindful sex book. And then there was... there were two, one came out just before mine, and then there was one that had been out for a while. But there was very little out there that was combining, you know, spiritual practice, in a secular way. with sexuality, there's, you know, there's Neo Tantra, and there's, you know, there's a variety of some of them quite ancient, and, you know, much respect, but there wasn't really anybody saying that, you know, a random blowjob in a bathroom at a party could be a spiritual experience. I don't know if I still don't know if I don't know saying that I might be the only one I'm not sure. I'm sure I'm sure other people are saying it. I don't know if they're writing it or saying it publicly. Hopefully they will be soon because look, there are people who are not going to relate to making sweet mindful love in your marriage bed with rose petals and eye gazing and synced breathing and wrote and you know, incense, which again, beautiful, done that great, love it. But what about for people who maybe relate to their sexuality in a different way? Or at different times relate to it in a different way. I know for me, I've been all over that spectrum, from like, lots and lots of sex with multiple partners to, you know, no sex with anyone to like, wanting one particular kind of sex to like not wanting that at all. So we continue, just like we do as artists, continue to grow and evolve and change. Same thing with our sexuality. And what was important to me was to write something that regardless of where you fall on that spectrum, you might be able to get something out of it. So that was the hope because that's what I wanted and needed and I couldn't find it.

Tony Angelini: 55:04

So would you say the connection between a blow job in a bathroom and spirituality lies in meaning, the meaning of the event? You know, because of what you said about rose petals and and looking into each other's eyes in bed can be meaningful for some people and abhorrent to other people. Right?

Jessica Graham: 55:29

Meaning, um, maybe, maybe meaning. or maybe...,

Tony Angelini: 55:37

I have the audacity to describe, I'm interrupting you, and I apologize for that. I really... definitions of words are very important to me. And I have the audacity to define them sometimes, just so we have clarity about what we're talking about. So I define meaning. Because everybody says meaning is important. And you have to find meaning in your life. And I thought, and I asked myself,"What is this gene se qua that's meaning?" So I've defined it as anything that inspires an emotion.

Jessica Graham: 56:10

Oh, yeah. that's beautiful.

Tony Angelini: 56:12

That's it.

Jessica Graham: 56:12

Love that. I love that. Yeah. I mean, yes, sure. sure that that can absolutely be one aspect of what makes a casual sexual encounter, have a spiritual aspect to it. It could also be something that could also create meaning in that would be actually being there. Like being maybe being sober, for example.

Tony Angelini: 56:39

Yeah, otherwise, the other person can go to jail. Well, it's not bad. I mean, it's not acceptable. If the other person wasn't sober.

Jessica Graham: 56:49

It's that's I 100%. agree there. You know, and it's it's tricky. It's such it's such a tricky, nuanced area, which I, which we don't have time to get into today.

Tony Angelini: 56:58

I know you spend a lot of time on the book with it. I, in short, I just want to say this, when you talk about"yes means yes" And I'm like, I'm listening to that while I'm driving. I'm like, Yes, that's genius.

Jessica Graham: 57:11

Yeah, and I think as a culture we're moving more towards that. And that's a beautiful thing. And being present, you know, actually feeling what you're feeling, seeing what you're seeing, smelling what you're smelling, tasting, what you're tasting, that will lead towards a more consensual experience. Because if you're really present, then you know if your body is saying, I don't want to do this, if you're really present, you can see that someone else's body doesn't want to do this, right. So even if you're not in a space of like, you're in that gray area where it's like, nobody said no. But nobody said yes. Well, in mindfulness presence, meaning based sexual experience, It mitigates a lot of that, I believe it's, it seems to anyway,

Tony Angelini: 58:04

Well, again, I could talk with you about this all night. Thanks so much for taking time out of your busy, busy schedule. I like to see your Facebook Lives. I personally can't attend at the time that you know, while they're live, but I often go back. And it's cool that anybody could go back to Facebook Live is your Is it your wild awakening?

Jessica Graham: 58:33

Yeah, so the website, my website is yourwildawakening.com and my, my company is Wild Awakening.

Tony Angelini: 58:42

Okay.

Jessica Graham: 58:43

And yeah, it live streams on Facebook and on Instagram, but I also have a YouTube channel where I upload that stuff as well. So yeah, if you join my mailing list, you'll know when I'm doing like any bigger events, I don't I don't send out very many emails. But every once in a while I send one out if I have something going on or something to share.

Tony Angelini: 59:01

I'll put a link to the YouTube channel, as they say down below. Is there anything else? Any other questions or anything you want to say?

Jessica Graham: 59:12

No, just it was a real real pleasure having this conversation with you. And I hope that it's it's helpful to the to the folks listening and yeah, just sending out sending out love to you and to anyone that might might listen to this conversation at any time.

Tony Angelini: 59:32

Hey, guys, I have to thank the written podcast agency for providing the Show Notes for this episode, and the transcription to appear on Creative mindset.org www dot written podcast. agency.com This podcast is produced by creative mindset.org