Patently Strategic - Patent Strategy for Startups
Patently Strategic - Patent Strategy for Startups
Inventor Stories: Robert Cameron and the Power of Perseverance
We’ve seen few entrepreneurial success stories that haven’t involved heavy doses of perseverance, grit, observation, and creative problem-solving. Today’s guest possesses these qualities in spades. And while I can’t necessarily recommend some of the more death-defying specifics of his approach … at least not without a lot of “don’t try this at home” fine print :) … I do think that most inventors and aspiring entrepreneurs will benefit immensely from studying our guest's thoughtfully crafted, time-tested, and wildly inventive approaches to innovation and business.
Robert Cameron is the Owner and CEO of Multi Wedge – as well as the inventor of some brilliant products sold under the same name. Multi Wedge non-marring pry tools are designed to pry delicate materials without damage. These are excellent tools for woodworking, electrical wiring, delicate mechanical work, and so much more. Robert’s wedges were recently tested by SpaceEx and used in the manufacturing process of Jet Engines at G.E Aviation. And of slightly less significance, but much closer to home, found under the Christmas trees of several of my closest relatives this past December. Robert has molded 1.3 million 3-piece sets, 3.3 million single wedges, and has been selling Multi Wedge in over 18,000 stores since 2010.
I met Robert back in October at the US Inventor Conference in DC. I was lucky enough to bump into him over dinner when he shared his incredible story with me. It's one of the funniest and most inspiring success stories you’ll hear.
** Mossoff Minute **
In this month's Mossoff Minute, Professor Adam Mossoff discusses findings from the recently published World IP Day Patent Litigation Study. This study clearly shows problems with the patent system but not the problems you typically hear from the companies that have been dominating the patent policy discussions for the past decade. Adam also highlights the importance of injunctions and damages – something we'll be discussing a lot more in segments to come.
** Discussed Links **
⦿ Multi Wedge: https://multiwedge.com/
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Thanks for listening!
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Note: The contents of this podcast do not constitute legal advice.
[00:00:00] Josh: G'day and welcome to the Patently Strategic podcast where we discuss all things at the intersection of business, technology, and patents. This podcast is a monthly discussion amongst experts in the field of patenting. It is for inventors, founders, and IP professionals alike, established or aspiring. And in this month's episode, we're continuing our inventor stories series, courtesy of a wonderful sit down we recently had with Robert Cameron.
We've seen few entrepreneurial success stories that haven't involved heavy doses of perseverance, observation, and creative problem solving. Today's guest possesses these qualities in spades. And while I can't necessarily recommend some of the death defying specifics of his approach, at least not with a lot of don't try this at home fine print, I do think that most inventors and aspiring entrepreneurs will benefit immensely from studying Robert's thoughtfully crafted and time tested framework.
Robert Cameron is the owner and CEO of MultiWedge, as well as the inventor of some brilliant products sold under the same name. [00:01:00] MultiWedge non prying tools are designed to pry delicate materials without damage. These are excellent tools for woodworking, electrical wiring, delicate material work, and so much more.
Robert's wedges were recently tested by SpaceX and used in the manufacturing process of jet engines at GE Aviation. In of slightly less significance, but much closer to home, found under the Christmas trees of several of my closest relatives this past December. Robert has molded 1. 3 million three piece sets, 3.
3 million single wedges, and has been selling multi wedge in over 18, 000 stores since 2010. As you'll no doubt notice in a minute from his wonderful accent, Robert is a New Zealand native, and he's also a bit of a thrill seeker, having once taken his jet ski all the way from Miami to Bimini Island in the Bahamas.
I met Robert back in October at the U. S. Inventor Conference in D. C. I was lucky enough to bump into him over dinner when he shared his incredible story with me. One of the funniest and most inspiring stories you'll hear, so we had to have him on. If you're a fan of Masters of Scale type founder stories, you're gonna love this one.
Now before jumping in with Robert, we'd like to take you to [00:02:00] the next installment of the Mossoff Minute, a monthly segment that builds on our Patent Wars episode and features short conversations with Professor Adam Mossoff, providing updates and quick takes on movements in patent reform, significant court rulings, innovation policy happenings, and occasional Star Wars references.
In this month's minute, Adam discusses findings from the recently published World IP Day Patent Litigation Study. This study clearly shows problems with the patent system, but not the problems you typically hear from the companies that have been dominating the patent policy discussions for the past decade.
Adam also highlights the importance of injunctions and damages, something we'll be discussing a lot more in segments to come.
[00:02:36] Adam Mossoff: This past World IP Day, April 26th, A very important new patent litigation study was released. It is important because there have not been any systemic studies of patent litigation for a very long time.
So this study brings a much needed data, uh, to the continuing policy discussions that are occurring in Washington, DC, especially on the Hill, uh, with respect to the need to reform the [00:03:00] U. S. patent system and restoring reliable and effective patent rights. This study does show that there are problems in patent litigation.
But not the problems that you typically hear from many of the companies that have been dominating the patent policy discussions for the past decade or so. Patent litigation is in fact way down consistent with that. Also, the remedies that patent owners receive when their property rights are violated are also way down.
Patent owners can have historically and typically received What's called an injunction. It's an order to stop someone from violating or infringing your property rights. For instance, if someone's trespassing in your home, you can get an injunction against them to kick them out of your home. Patent owners can get the same thing against companies that are violating their patent rights by making and selling their inventions without their permission and without paying them a royalty.
Also, The damages for these infringing actions are also way down. So patent owners are both [00:04:00] not receiving those vital court orders to stop. People from violating their rights going forward, and they're not receiving the appropriate compensation for the past infringement in violation of their rights.
Moreover, the litigation by so called patent trolls, those mythical beasts that allegedly buy up junk patents and threaten real innovators. Um, is not occurring and is, uh, and to the extent that there are a few bad actors, that is actually very small, insignificant portion of the entire patent litigation landscape.
What this shows us is that there is continuing concerns about the destabilization of patents as reliable and effective property rights that serve as a basis for commercialization and deployment of new technologies, new drugs, and, and the other types of products and services is. that make modern life a veritable miracle today.
This data will serve a key role in the continuing discussions about how [00:05:00] we should reform the patent system that are now occurring in Congress and elsewhere. So stay tuned for more.
[00:05:07] Josh: Thanks Adam. We're also publishing clips from the Mossoff Minute, his short form videos on Instagram Reels, YouTube Shorts, and TikTok.
You can check out these shorts and follow us at Aurora Patents on all three platforms. And now, without further ado, here's our interview with Robert Cameron. Welcome, Robert, and thanks for carving some time out to chat with us today.
[00:05:25] Robert: Great. Thanks for having me. Good to be here.
[00:05:27] Josh: I love starting at the beginning.
Um, what's your origin story as an entrepreneur and what got you down the path of non marring prying tools?
[00:05:37] Robert: Sure. So, um, I was actually born in New Zealand. I did a, um, 8, 000 hour apprenticeship As a tool and die maker, um, when I was 22, I decided to go to Australia and So, I spent 10 years in Australia, um, working in the gold mines, uh, working in Aborigine communities, doing mechanical [00:06:00] work, um, I used to travel all over Australia just doing shut down work for mining, um, I've been to the U.
S. three different times and I really love, loved it and the sort of entrepreneurial spirit of the U. S., so, um, in 1994 I decided to emigrate. and see if I could invent something.
[00:06:23] Josh: That's great. So, um, specifically what, what started getting you focused on the, on the prying tools?
[00:06:28] Robert: Right. Um, so I worked for a, um, oil tool company in 1997.
And, um, uh, previously to that, I was doing some construction work and I always, um, was leveling stuff and I was using wooden shims and Um, different, different sort of tools, by tools to try and align and level stuff. And I always thought it'd be a good idea to have a, like a wedge and then, um, have a [00:07:00] handle on it.
So, um, I, I made a prototype, couple here, I made these out of wood. And, um, made them out of friend's shop and I just got the angle right. Um, like I said, I put a handle on the end of it. And then, um, uh, that was the sort of concept for it. And then, um, when I was working for this oil tool company, I saw some, uh, workers prying some valves, um, these precision valves.
And I thought these would make a good pry tool if I made them out of a harder material. So what I did is I made. The, um, orange set out of polypropylene, and I made these. Another set out of a really hard, um, polycarbonate material mainly for prying purposes. So, um, when I was at my job I met a, uh, gentleman at an inventor's forum [00:08:00] in California, um, that had a machine shop up in L.
A. So I took, showed him the product and um, he said, well, if you give me 3000 bucks, you can come up and make the product yourself. So I was like really excited. So actually I spent two and a half years at this company and they always knew me as the inventor guy. So I came in one day and I said, Oh, I'm going to go ahead and um, make my wedges.
Um, so I literally backed my truck up, put my toolbox on it, and I said, I'll see you guys later. So they were in absolute shock, and they, I used to joke around at work all the time, and they seriously thought I was joking. And I left, and I never, I never saw any of them again, um, except for about, probably 10 years later, one of the guys I was really close to, this guy, Tony, he was, um, he'd [00:09:00] moved to Colorado.
And he just got my number off the product and he called me up and I hadn't seen him for 10 or 15 years, whatever it was. And he's like, Hey Kiwi, what are you doing? He's like, I couldn't believe it. I was in a Raleigh's auto parts and I saw your wedges. He was absolutely blown away. You know, he hadn't heard of seeing me since I got in my truck and just drove off.
So, um, That was a pretty funny story. He couldn't believe it. He was like, 15 years ago I saw you put your toolbox in the back of your truck and I never heard from you. He was like, I was always wondering what had happened. That was pretty, that's pretty funny. Um,
[00:09:39] Josh: what a, like what a what? A what a great full, what a great full circle moment too.
You know? I mean, yeah. I mean, number one, I mean, you did, you did the thing with so many people sort of dream of doing quietly, you know, toiling away and, you know, the cubes and benches and things. Just, uh, if I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna bust outta here someday. I'm gonna bust outta here someday. You know? [00:10:00] And you, you did it.
You did it. Um. That was pretty, pretty, pretty cool to see that colleague come back, come back around.
[00:10:08] Robert: Yeah. Yep. So then, um, yeah, so I went up to LA and The guy's shop, he was a pretty successful inventor as well. Um, he invented the Chihuahua car wash mop. I don't know if anyone in our audience remember that back in the mid 90s, I think it was 1995.
It was like a, uh, blue circle with little feathers made out of, um, car wash material. You know, the blue stuff that washes your car. And he had been really successful with it, and, um, he had licensed it to one of these direct TV companies, so, I was under the impression that, uh, he lived, he had this big, massive, beautiful workshop, and all this stuff, and I was, like, really excited, and I met him, you know, like I said, I met him at the Inventors Forum, so he was like, come on up, kiddo, you know, come on up, come out to the shop, and, you know, [00:11:00] so I went up there on a Saturday, and I was driving along, and the area started not looking too great, So And, uh, when I sort of pulled in there I thought I'd come to the wrong address because it was in a, uh, not a, not a pleasant part of L.
A. It was really a bad, a bad part. And, um, so I was standing outside, I was sitting in my truck outside and I had, had my little prototype sitting on the seat. And, um, there was a, like a, uh, a chain link, you know, gate, it was all closed off. You couldn't see, had a big padlock on it. And I was sitting, I was looking at his business card and I was kept looking.
I'm like, am I at the right address? I had to take a double take. I thought this guy had like a lot of money, you know? So, um, I almost, almost turned around and left. And I was sitting there complaining, should I knock on the gate? This can't be right. So anyway, I was going to leave and I thought, you know what?
You know, I drove all this way [00:12:00] up to, um, Artesia. I might as well just knock on the gate. So I knocked on the gate and all these big bulldogs were like, barking and trying to attack me. And then, um, nothing happened and I was like, well, I guess I'll leave. And then the door opens, this trailer, there's a trailer on the lot and this door opened and this guy comes out and his ears are all strapped.
He's like, who the hell's that? You know, he's like yelling. And then I said, oh, it's um, Robert Cameron from the Inventors Forum and um, he goes, Who, who, who's that? And I go, Robert Cameron, remember? And he's like, Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So he goes, Hang on, hang on a minute. So he opens the gate, lets me in. And, um, it was an old body shop that he had, and he had, um, so he walked inside and he had all the machine tools, you know, he had like a Bridgeport milling machine, an EDM thinker machine, um, lathe, he had all the right equipment, and, um, so we got talking [00:13:00] about the product, and he said, oh, you know what, he goes, yeah, You go, yeah, I like that product.
He said, I tell you what, you give me 3000 bucks and you can use all the machine and build the mold yourself. And uh, I thought that was pretty neat. I thought it was pretty and he was a super nice guy. He had this kind of like following of people. He used to follow him around and he was like an old biker guy.
Super, super nice. And, um, so that's what I did. So a couple of days later, I went up there in my truck and, um, we went down to an aluminum place and I bought these big blocks of aluminum and just a blank chunk of aluminum and, uh, went back into the shop there and just literally got a, like a, I've still got them somewhere, like a manila folder and a ruler.
And, um, Bob actually designed the mould, because he's a mould maker. I'd done some mould making in my apprenticeship, but not actual plastic injection moulds. They designed the mould, and, um, I went ahead and, um, [00:14:00] basically built it. It took about nine months. It wasn't like today, you would have a CNC machines and it'll be programmed and it'll be done in like two days.
This was the old mechanical bridge port lathe, and, um, you know, it was quite a, quite a work environment. Um, he was a bit of a pack rat, and, uh, the workshop was just a complete chaos. It was about that deep and junk over everywhere. I mean, there was stuff falling off, you know, if you wanted to get a drill bit, it would take you about half an hour to find it.
Um, super nice guy, like I said, but just, just a chaotic work environment. And he had all kinds of animals, like he had dogs, chickens, cat, um, he had a pig. Uh, big pig used to lie in there and you have to stand over it. Um, I mean, it was just It was absolutely chaotic, but, you know, I didn't have any money at the time.
I, you know, had a couple thousand bucks in the bank. Um, [00:15:00] I had no, basically no income at all. Um, and so, I mean, I'd end up buying old, like an old Chevy Lumina with blown head gaskets, and I, I bought that. I had it towed there. And, um, you know, when I had some spare time, I was like working on it, changing the head gaskets on it.
And, uh, you know, I made three or 400 bucks on it. And I, you know, that was a lot of money back then, just working on it. And, um, yeah, just to say about the area, um, well, I've had some people that stayed with him and they all went out to dinner one night and I was only there about a week or so, and like I said, it was a pretty scary area and I was kind of hungry, so I wanted to order a pizza.
So, I got on the phone there, and um, I think, I think that just when cell phones came out, I got on the phone and I dialed the pizza place, and the guy's like, Oh, what would you like? And I said, um, can I get like a Hawaiian pizza, pineapple, pepperoni, you know, ham, everything. I was really hungry. And, [00:16:00] um, he goes, he goes, Okay, uh, we'll have it, it'll be about 10, 15 minutes, what's your address?
So I said, uh, I gave him the address, 168 Street, Artesian. The phone just went dead. I was just like, what the, what the hell? So I called back, I thought, oh, he must have disconnected by mistake. And he, and he didn't take the call. And then when Bob came back, I said, what, what the hell's going on? I said, like, I was a peach and that guy wouldn't even talk to me.
He goes, oh, they don't deliver anything around here. That kiddo. It was such, he said, it was such a bad area that the cops don't even show up. I mean, I kid you not, they were like every night there were helicopters flying around, you know, and the gunshots going off. And, and actually one night I was walking from the shop over to the trailer and, um, these, uh, gang guys were like shooting bullets off.
And, uh, and, uh, one ricochet that went over the top of my head and it actually parted my [00:17:00] hair and I'll never forget it. And I just went twang that bullet sound and I could actually feel my hair move. Oh my gosh, I just jumped down on the ground and like commando The trailer and I was thinking wow, that's just inventing products just not as easy as I thought
[00:17:19] Josh: Didn't know it was going to be quite so hazardous to your health the the price the price of the price of innovation
[00:17:27] Robert: Yeah, so, um, yeah, so after that I took about I think about nine or ten months to build the mold, you know, from scratch. Um, so the first idea I had was, um, uh, so yeah, so when I, when I, uh, I, so I ran the mold and I got the parts out and I thought of, um, I was, I was, I was a mechanical guy.
I had, um, New Zealand, I used to have like rally sprint cars and I always worked on motorbikes forever. And I thought that the first like sort of idea I [00:18:00] thought for the pry tools was. For, um, splitting motorcycle cases, so I had this thing stuck in my head that motorcycle cases like, um, being able to have like really thin tips, you'd be able to get in a really tight gap, you know, in the engine casing.
I thought that would just be, that was like, I really got a passion for that idea. You know, so I actually made this, uh, I bought this long. This is the first, um, packaging I ever did. And it was done on like early version of like publisher probably. Um,
[00:18:37] Josh: oh sure. Yeah.
[00:18:38] Robert: Thousand or something. I mean, it's pretty good.
I just did it myself and I had it, had it shrink rate, uh, brain of, uh, Bob's at the shop had a, um, you know, packaging machine. So I went and actually stuck it on there and, um, and shrink wrap it. So this is my very first one. I actually called it tough wedge. It was the first name I thought of. Um, so anyways, so [00:19:00] my great idea was to, in my head, I thought, wow, if I could get an every motorcycle dealership.
In the world, you know, it would be just amazing, you know, so I thought this has got to be a great, you know, great use for it. So that's what I focused on. So I had a friend that had a motorcycle dealership. I think it was in San Clemente, uh, Semon Capistrano, I think Mission Yamaha. So I drove down there. So I got my wedges after like nine months, put them in my truck, a whole box of these.
And I went down to the dealership, this guy, John, and I, and I said, Hey, You know, he'd heard, heard about me. And I said, Hey, can you test these out with your mechanic? And, um, you know, for splitting the cases and stuff, it's not going to damage the, you know, thin casings and stuff. And he's like, yeah, okay. It sounds good.
Just leave them there. So I left the box there and, um, I went back and I, I can't, I went back about two weeks later. So I was telling Bob, he's [00:20:00] like, we're all excited, you know, that, you know, I was all excited to go back and see what the feedback was. And so I went back and, um. I walked in the shop and here's this box sitting on the counter.
And I thought, wow, I wonder how he knew that I was like coming.
[00:20:16] Josh: So nice of him to package it up like
[00:20:19] Robert: that. Yeah. I was like, I kind of looked like I kind of thought, hmm, I wonder how anyone was coming. Anyway, so I talked to him, I said, Hey, how'd you like, you know, how'd you like the wedges? You know what I mean?
My heart was beating. I was like, I'd, you know, spent nine or ten months, like, basically no income. And I was standing there, I'm like, you know, he's going to love them. You know, I'm sure he will. And, um, he looked at me and he said, Oh, we never use them. We actually have case pullers that we use to separate them.
We don't need them. So I was absolutely, you know, devastated. I was like, we did it. So I put them in my truck. I'm not quite sure if I actually, uh, cried, but I was just devastated. [00:21:00] Would have been understandable.
[00:21:01] Josh: Yeah.
[00:21:02] Robert: So I went back up to the shop, um, and I told Bob and I said, Hey, they didn't use them. And he's like, what?
And I said, no, they have these case pullers. So, um, Yeah, I was, I was just devastated. I couldn't believe it. I'm like, what am I going to do now? So Bob's like, well, you know, you got a good job, you know, working for Barco. So I really, I really didn't want to go back. Um, so I left it for a couple of days. And, um, I, you know, I went back up to the shop and, uh, it was like probably around midnight.
And, um, I was just like looking at them and I was thinking, oh, that's so, such, such a disaster. And then I look over and one of the, um, the girl that lived there was, um, In the, in the machine, in the, in the machine shop. Yeah. So there were a few people that lived in there. [00:22:00] And, um, she was one of them that lived in there.
Anyway, she had this handbag and, um, I'm kind of looking over the shelf and I'm looking and I said, Hey, Kathy, what, what are you, what are you doing? And she's like, she's like, she opens the handbag up and she pulls out some of my wedges and, um, I'm looking at them and I said, what are you doing with them?
And then I looked down and she had a picture frame and she had the orange wedges and she's like prying the picture frame away from the glass. And, um, she goes, Kiwi, these are great. These are really great for, look, I can pry this, this picture out without, without damaging the frame and stuff. These are really good.
And I looked at it and I went, and I just thought, that is, that is brilliant. You know, what a great, what a great idea. So, so I went over right away, went back over to the trailer and I said, hey, Bob, Kathy was using these as a, um, like a pry tool for, for this, you know, wooden frame and stuff. And I said, what about woodworkers?
And he goes, oh, that's a great idea, isn't it? Yeah, he goes, [00:23:00] you know, I've got a friend that's got a wood shop, um, down off Pioneer Office Boulevard. And, um, so we went and dropped some, the next day we went and dropped a box of them off at the woodworkers. And, um, we went back about a week or, week or so later, and the guy absolutely loved them.
Thought they were really awesome. You know, I'll tell you that. They'd have like really fine finished woodworking, they'd have trims and sometimes they'd glue a trim on and they, they want to move it and they can't because there's really no, no way to get in this tiny little gap. So these wedges, they'd just slide them in there and just give them a nice little gentle tap and they could lift the frame up and reposition it.
So they absolutely loved them. So that gave me some inspiration and uh, I thought what a great, you know, that could be a great market. You know, as actual for prying, you know, woodwork. So, um, I think a few weeks later we went to the LA County Fair, and there was a, um, company there [00:24:00] called Lee Valley Tools from Canada, and, um, I went up to the guy and I just had them in my pocket, and I said, hey, would you guys want to sell these for woodworkers?
And the guy was super nice and he goes, yeah, why not? We'll try it. So, um, about a week, week or so later, um, we went backwards and forwards and I ended up selling about 8, 000 of them in their catalog. So that was just, I was blown away. I was like, wow. Well,
[00:24:28] Josh: that's, I mean, that's, that's amazing exposure, right?
Because I mean, any, anybody who's, anybody who's doing woodworking has, has that Lee Valley Tools catalog, you know, sitting in, sitting in their shop, right?
[00:24:38] Robert: Yep. Yep. So that, that was, um, that was kind of a turning point. Um, yeah, it was really, really exciting. I, I, I couldn't believe it. And, um, some of my friends used to mess with me and they would, they'd call up with this fake voice and pretend they were ordering.
They're like, Hey, Mr. Cameron, we'd like to order. 50, [00:25:00] 000. That's the wedges. And, um, and I'd always, I'd always go, yeah, funny, funny. Anyway, one day this, uh, um, I think it was Lee Valley Tools called up again to reorder. And I thought it was a, uh, a friend of mine messing with me. And um, the lady goes, I would like to order 8, 000.
And I said, well, you, you can't have them, sorry. And she goes, she goes, what? She goes, this is multi wage? I go, yeah. She goes, I want to order 8, 000 of your wages. We've been selling them. I said, well, you can't have any.
And, uh, after a few minutes, I was like, oh my goodness. Oh, I think it's real. And I had to explain to her what the story was. And she just, you know, I thought it was hilarious, so yeah.
[00:25:50] Josh: Oh, good. Good, good thing. Good thing she hung on that phone call. Right? Yeah, absolutely. Didn't, didn't give
[00:25:55] Robert: up on you.
[00:25:56] Josh: Wow.
[00:25:58] Robert: Yep.
So then, um, [00:26:00] I think the first trade show I went to was, um, in Chicago at the National Hardware Show in 2004. Um, so I, I did a, um, I did a big booth, um, not a big booth, just average booth there. So that was my first, uh, first real trade show. Um, and I got some really good accounts out of that. Um, I got, um, like, McMaster car was an industrial distributor.
[00:26:26] Josh: Okay.
[00:26:27] Robert: And, um, I've been selling continuously since 2004 with that one contact, um, so that was, that was amazing. I'm actually doing orders today for it, um, but that's been a consistent sale since 2004. You know, every few months or whatever, for the whole time.
[00:26:51] Josh: You can't, you can't ask for more than that. Uh, consistent revenue stream like that.
That's what it's all about.
[00:26:58] Robert: Yeah. So [00:27:00] yeah, that was, these, you know, I've got some really good accounts that I've had for, you know, some 14, 15 years or longer.
[00:27:07] Josh: Sure.
[00:27:09] Robert: So yeah, just being, you know, diligent and persistent. Um, you know, you go through quite a few sellers that don't do very well with it for whatever reason and then all of a sudden you get a really good account and they've just gone on and on and on forever.
It's really good. Um, when I was, uh, when I first, first got into McMasterCar, I was, um, well, I think Waters came by fax machine.
[00:27:38] Josh: Sure.
[00:27:39] Robert: Um, back, back in the day, and, uh, I remember I was like, I was still working on, you know, I still, I couldn't, I couldn't make a living back then, you know, I wasn't making enough to make a living.
So, um, you know, any orders were just like really, really exciting. And, um, so I remember one time I had, I used to have the fax machine in my [00:28:00] room and I think McMaster car would order at nighttime because, you know, the phone was cheaper or something. So I'd be lying in bed, and I'd hear the fax machine go off, and it'd go doot, doot,
[00:28:12] Josh: doot, doot, doot,
[00:28:13] Robert: doot, doot, doot, like this, and I was like, totally broke.
And, uh, I'd hear this thing at about two o'clock in the morning, and I'd just, like, jump out of bed, like, turn the light on, I couldn't see, and I'd look at the fax, and it would be an order from McMastercard, you know, and I was just so excited. And, um, and then I couldn't sleep, because I was like, wow, you know, 500 bucks, you know, that was a lot of money back then, a lot of money.
And, um, so I'd be so excited I couldn't sleep. And then, um, so after a while I'd get orders, you know, maybe one a week or so. And then, uh, sometimes, you know, I'd go to sleep and I'd, I'd hear the fax machine and I'd jump out of bed, turn the light on and go over there and there wasn't a fax there. Like I'd actually just kind of dreamt it.
So, [00:29:00] then I wouldn't get, try to,
[00:29:02] Josh: try to will it, try to make it happen.
[00:29:04] Robert: Yeah. So I wouldn't sleep even when I, when I didn't get an order. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:29:09] Josh: So, you know, we talked a fair amount about, you know, self, self bootstrapping. Um, you had a little bit of a side hustle to keep the bills going, right?
[00:29:17] Robert: Yeah. Yep. So I had this friend that actually used to, uh, come and hang out at the shop, this guy Steve.
And, uh, he was, um, he was like a recovering alcoholic guy, and a super nice guy. We And, um, uh, when I, when I kind of left the shop after I built, I built a couple of other models, uh, other ideas and, um, I moved back, you know, back in case the master and, um, I was doing my online catalogs and, uh, you know, I still wasn't making enough.
And, um. I had a friend that I was doing construction [00:30:00] for and I really, I really didn't like it at all. And, um, anyway, about six months later or so, this guy, Steve rolls up down my driveway and he's like, Hey, Kiwi, what are you doing? What are you doing? You know, he's dressed up in a plumbing outfit. Um, full on like master technician, the nice shirt and they'd be like Steve on this thing.
And I looked at him like that. Like he was actually staying at a rehab place that was about a block away. And he'd just, he'd remember my number and stuff. That's how he, he came over and he's like, he's like, I said, what are you doing? He's like, dude, I'm making all kinds of money being a plumber. I said, well, you don't know anything about plumbing.
How the hell could you get a job? And, um, he goes, this place is amazing. You don't have to know anything. And I said, well, what are you talking about? And he's like, he's like, dude, you should come up. You could get a job, you know, you know, screw working for your friend, you know, making 300 bucks. You could, you could be making like two, [00:31:00]3, 000 a week.
And I thought he was kidding, you know. So
[00:31:03] Josh: he
[00:31:03] Robert: actually brings out these invoices. And sure enough, he was making an incredible amount of money, and I was like, and I was like, well, you know, I don't want to do plumbing, you know, and he's like, anyway, so, so he left, and he, and he came back again, and, um, came back again, he's like, Kiwi, come on, just come up to the, up to the office that's up in Burbank, just come up and, um, and, uh, just to see, see the, see the boys up there, they're really, really cool guys, you know.
And, um, I was like, so I'm in an hour and I was like, uh, yeah. All right, let's go. So we drove all out to Burbank and, um, we went up to like 12th floor of this building and he opened the door and we walk in and this place looked like a, a NASA control center. It had boards up with projectors with all the plumbers, the top sellers, um, had all these dispatchers, you know, on the phones, it was just like chaotic, it was just full on.
This was back just when that big housing boom was, [00:32:00] was, uh, was starting and, um, so I mean I still had no intention of being a plumber, I didn't know anything about plumbing so anyway, I go and sit down at this desk and anyway his boss comes over and his boss comes up and he's like, mate, man. Hey Robert, nice to meet you.
And, um, and he goes, Steve, Steve, give him the form. And I'm like, give me the form? See, what is he talking about? So anyway, he showed me this. He's like, Kiwi, Kiwi, fill this out, fill this out. So, it's like a 40 question test. You know, multi, uh, multi guest test. So he's like, fill it out, fill it out. I'm like, I'm not going to fill this out.
You know, he's like, come on, come on. So I'm like, alright. So I just go through and I, uh, I go through like the 40 questions, like three pages. And, and then a few minutes later his boss comes out and he says, He goes, come on Robert, come to the office, bring, bring that paper. And I'm like, oh shit, he's gonna fricken line me up for an interview, like I couldn't believe it.[00:33:00]
So I go in there and he sits down and he, and he goes, hang on, let me, let me Let me see all the plumbing experience you had and I said, well, I helped my friend, uh, install a bathtub once, um, you know, on a construction site. He's like, Oh, okay. Okay. So he goes through and he marks all the, marks all the questions and he goes, well, you got 39 out of 40.
How about you start on Monday? I was like, what did he just say? So I actually got 39 out of 40 wrong. And he said, come in on Monday and we'll get you a van and a uniform and get you started. You got a van.
So I mean, I mean, at this stage I was still barely, you know, barely paying my bills. So I was like, um, you know, I really didn't want to do it. So anyway, I go, I drive all the way back up. Well, Steve drops me off on Monday. Okay. I got in the office, they gave me this like, brand new white plumbing shirt, like, American flag, master plumber, like, all these badges, like, certificates and stuff, [00:34:00] I had absolutely no clue what they were.
So, um, had really, really nice like, uh, dark blue pants, I had to get brand new shoes, work shoes, so it really looked the part. So then, um, I got this van, and this was like a beat up van, On the outside of the van, it had stocked, fully stocked with parts. So I opened up the back doors, it is absolutely completely empty, but one big brass fitting about that big in the back.
There were no shelves, there was nothing, absolutely nothing in there. So I'm driving back to Costa Mesa, and I'm driving down the freeway like this, just trying to keep it straight. And, um, every time I'd hit the brakes, this big brass fitting would go, boom, boom, boom, bang on the back. And then, like, I'd get a fright and I'd almost run off the road.
So, I got, I got back, and back in those days, we had the little pages, you know, we had the big, uh, Thomas, Thomas Guide, it was like that thick. With all these pages in it and, uh, so I got back to my house and I'm just like sitting there. [00:35:00] I'm like freaking out I'm like if this page it goes off, you know, I'm just going to be terrified You know, I'm like emergency plumbing calls I I mean, I actually had a business card made and I'd written Bob the plumber on it And, um, about two years later, someone said, Hey Bob, uh, how do you spell plumber?
I said, why's that? So apparently I'd spelled it P L U M M E R. I've been handing these cards out for like two years and no one's said anything.
That one time I looked and I thought, you know, I always thought I looked a bit strange. Well,
[00:35:40] Josh: if they weren't impressed by the van, the business card was definitely going to seal the deal.
[00:35:44] Robert: Yeah, for sure. So, um, yeah, I always remember my first call. So I ended up doing the plumbing for four years, believe it or not.
It was like, it was like the funnest job I ever had. That's unreal. But, um, no, I'll tell you about [00:36:00] my first call, it was real quick. So, um, I, I got a call actually, it wasn't, wasn't far from where the, um, motorcycle dealer was, um, down in St Clemente. So, so anyway, I'm dressed up, I got this van, I'm dressed up, plumbing shirt, nice pants, nice shoes.
So I knock on the door, and um, this Asian lady, and she's like, Oh, hello Robert! Uh, nice to meet you. Come on in, come on in. So I go in and I'm just like, kind of trembling, you know, I'm like thinking, oh my god, what's wrong with plumbing? Like, anyway, she, she says to me, she says, Oh, so how long have you been a plumber?
And I look at my watch and I go, about 30 seconds. And she goes, Oh, you're so funny. Yeah. And I'm like, no, no, I'm not kidding.
So, um, so then yeah, to on that story. So anyway, she had this toilet and the, you know, the tank was, it was running the fill fill valve was, wasn't working. So, you know, [00:37:00] I mean, I had a pretty good mechanical background, but I, you know, so far as plumbing, I'd never, never done anything. So I, um, I opened it, you know, top of the tank and I see it's, it kept running.
It wouldn't shut off. So I said to her, well, um, I think it's this. I didn't know what it, this valve. Um, I'll go see if I've got one in my van for you. So I go out, go down the street, I open the van, I open the door, and she's kind of like standing by the door, and I'm looking in there going, like, I knew I didn't have, I didn't have any parts.
There was nothing. I had my little, I had my little motorcycle tool kit. It was like this big. It was all I had. So I come back and I said, Oh, you know what, um, we don't have it, but I'm going to go down to our warehouse. It's not far from here and I'll, I'll get you the valve. And I said, Oh, I've got every model, but that one.
And she goes, Oh, okay. Come back. Okay. So, so I drove off and I went to Home Depot and, um, I'm sitting in my van and I call up Steve. Cause he had some experience by this stage and I call him up and I said, Hey, [00:38:00] I got this valve thing at the top. He goes, yeah, he did. It's a fill valve. He goes, just go into Home Depot and get it.
He goes, have you got your plumbing shirt on? And I'm like, yeah. And he goes, Oh, dude, put a sweater on or something. Put a sweater on. I'm like, why? Cause you don't want to look like a plumber. You don't know what you're doing.
[00:38:18] Josh: You're going to need some help in there.
[00:38:20] Robert: Yeah. Need some help. So I actually put this, I had this black sweater.
It was fricking hot. I didn't even know I had it. So I put the sweater on and I go into Home Depot and I, and I look around and I see this bill valve. I couldn't find the right one. So I asked the guy, the guy goes, how can I help you? And I said, yeah. So, I mean, I, I just looked like. You know, a regular customer.
So I said, can I help? He goes, can I help you? And I go, um, yeah, I'm looking for this valve. And he goes, oh, it's, uh, this one here. And then, so then I started asking questions, like how to install it and stuff, what, what, what I should do. Anyway, so he's, he's sort of telling me, and then I started asking a whole bunch of questions.
He's like, listen, you, I think you really need a plumber. [00:39:00] And I go, okay, thanks. So I go to Home Depot. I take my sweater off, throw it in the car, I drive back up to this lady's house and I go, oh, I've got the belt. And she says, oh, great,
[00:39:14] Josh: great, thank
[00:39:14] Robert: you,
[00:39:14] Josh: thank you so
[00:39:15] Robert: much. Alright, so I go and I install it, you know, everything was fine.
And, um, and then, so then the next job I go to, You know, I could walk in and they always seem to ask, Oh, how long have you been a plumber? And I go, I'm about an hour and a half. And they'd just crack up laughing, and I was actually telling the truth. So I ended up doing that for four years. I absolutely loved it.
It was just, every day was different. And, you know, I have my product in the catalogs and I was still calling, um, companies, you know, on the side as well, trying to get, trying to get some, um, business and stuff. So, um, yeah, that, that was the early days of it.
[00:39:52] Josh: So do you, do you do your own plumbing now or do you call it professional?
[00:39:56] Robert: I do mine.
[00:39:59] Josh: That's good. So learn [00:40:00] something along the way. Okay. I
[00:40:03] Robert: actually trust myself sometimes, not all the time.
[00:40:08] Josh: That's great. Um, so I think you also had a pretty creative approach to doing some of your, um, you mentioned construction sites before. You mentioned, um, you mentioned construction sites before. You had a pretty creative approach to market research. Can you talk about that a little bit?
[00:40:23] Robert: Yeah, sure. So, um, one of my products, I've done this with the wedges, but I made a bigger wedge, um, for leveling, which is this jumbo.
And this is made of a really hard, high impact, um, ABS material. It's super, super, super strong. So, um, I wanted to do some market research with that. Um, so my friend, like I said, was a contractor. So one day I asked him if I could come to work with him. So he's like, yeah, sure, you know, help me out. So what I did is I took, um, I took about three [00:41:00]or four of these with me to the job site.
And, uh, they were doing framework. And so what I did is that at lunchtime, I, um, you know, I was helping my friend. And I went and, um, put about four of these. Out on the job site while the, while the workers were at lunch. And I just, just put them random places. I just put them down. Um, you know, they didn't have the label on it.
And, um, and I just carried on working. We didn't say, oh, here's a new product. You know, here's a new product. You should try it. You should use it. You know, you could level stuff. We didn't say anything. I didn't say a thing. I just left them there. And after about an hour, um, I was just sort of watching these guys in the corner of my eye, and I wonder if I'll see it, you know.
Eventually they saw it, and one guy grabs it, and he's like, he didn't even ask where it came from, he just starts using it. And he, you know, he's like, had a hammer, he's kicking with his foot, you know, trying to level stuff, he's like kicking with his foot. And um, [00:42:00] and after a while I was just watching, and they all ended up using it, for different, for different uses.
And that's it. So, uh, then, then after, you know, I sort of told him, I, you know, it's a, it's a new product and they're like, Oh, we love it. Well, we just thought it was a tool that had been around forever. I'm like, no, I actually invented it and built it. And they were like, they were shocked. They were like, what, really?
You can't buy it anywhere. I said, no, I've only, only kind of just made it. And, um, and I said, Oh, what, what do you think you'd sort of use it for? So I've got a pretty good idea of what they liked about the product.
[00:42:33] Josh: So I
[00:42:33] Robert: could target my users for that. And then also got really valuable information on, I said, what, what would you pay for it?
You know, what, what do you think you would pay for it? So they were like, you know, I think it was like 12, 12 bucks, 15 back then. They were quite happy. So they pretty much all, you know, sit around that price point. So that gave me really valuable information on how I could go back and price the product to distributors.[00:43:00]
Um, so that was just incredibly invaluable. So if you have a product, you know, don't show your friends, don't have your family comment on it because you already know what they're going to say. Okay. If you can get it into, into the market that you think it is, you know, the market it's for, and have people that don't know you, have no idea about the product, and see how they used it, and that's how you'll find, I mean, you could spend 100, 000 on market research.
It is absolutely a waste of money. Take your product, like if, I mean, I had a kid's product and I actually took it to like a play centre. It was like a kid's ball. And, uh, I asked the lady if they could, um, you know, give it to the kids and play. And these kids played with it. And I saw what they did with it, you know, and how much they liked it, you know.
So, doing just stuff like, it doesn't cost you anything. And it is absolutely invaluable information. It's not, there's no bias at [00:44:00] all. And then you can see if you need to modify your product, you know, like, you know, this big jumbo which, you know, was it too long? Was it too short? Was it high enough, you know, and you want to find out all that information before you, you know, go to market.
So it costs nothing and it's, it's more valuable than what any company could really do for you.
[00:44:24] Josh: Yeah, like, you know, test frequently fail quickly, right? Like tighten that, tighten that feedback loop right up. Um, and yeah, like, like you said, I mean, you're not, you're not really going to learn anything with the, with the mom test, right?
Throw it out, throw it out, throw it out in the real world with, with real potential, you know, customers. It's truth, right?
[00:44:47] Robert: This is so simple. It's just a simple thing to do.
[00:44:50] Josh: It is. It is. But these things get like over, over thought, right. And, and made a, made a whole lot more, made a whole lot more, uh, you know, complicated than they need [00:45:00] to be there.
There is a, there's a grittier, scrappier, more startup friendly avenue, um, you know, to doing, to doing, to doing these things. Um, so I think that's actually, um, You know, pretty good, pretty good segue to the next thing, you know, I want to, I want to ask you about, and that's just, you know, you've been, you've been doing this for a long time.
You had, you had some failures, you've had a lot of successes, um, you know, you've probably learned some really interesting business lessons along, along the way. Um, do you want to talk about any of those?
[00:45:29] Robert: Yeah, sure. Um, I would say, um, okay, so getting your product into, um, I, I mean, okay, my wedge sells really well in industrial and an industrial account.
So there was, um, I was in McMaster car, which is, you know, in the five or 10 industrial distributors, you know, I'd been in there for a long time and it sold really well. So I wanted to get into Granger's. [00:46:00] Which is, you know, even bigger than, um, McMasterCar.
[00:46:04] Josh: Sure.
[00:46:05] Robert: These, these can be just incredibly difficult.
You know, you can apply online, um, I don't even know if they read the, like, new product submission. Um, I mean, I, I spent a couple of years just trying to resubmit, resubmit it, and they, you'd never hear back. And this is, I think this was before, well, no, it wasn't before LinkedIn. LinkedIn was around. And then if I.
Um, actually no, I did use LinkedIn in the end. You know, I had sales reps that, um, said, Oh, you know, we're, we're exclusive for Grangers, we're going to get your product in there and all this. So they talked to me for about six months, never got it in there. Actually, you know, I said, Oh, we, we can't get it in there.
So anyway, I went on, uh, I went on LinkedIn and I found the, so I had nothing to lose, like I'd spent a year or two, a couple of years trying to get it into Granger Absolutely no feedback, nothing. [00:47:00] So what I did was I, you know, I had nothing to lose and I was a little bit cheeky. I got, I connected with the CEO of Grainger and, um, fought for others.
And I sent him a LinkedIn message on a Sunday. So I thought Sunday would be a good day to do it because, you know, they're at home relaxing and, you know, maybe they'll just get a chance to look at their phone. So I wrote him a message and I said, uh, Your company, your company sucks. I mean, I literally wrote this.
I said, I have a great USA made product. I'm a small guy and you guys ignore me. You don't give back to me. How can you run a business like this? Your company really sucks. I literally wrote that because what can happen? What's the worst going to happen?
[00:47:50] Josh: You're not going to be any further off than you were by being ignored.
That's for sure.
[00:47:55] Robert: Absolutely. And I said, you know, I mean, it was not a nice, I mean, I never, never really [00:48:00]swore anything. I wasn't crude. I just said, your company sucks. I literally wrote that. So I, I'd seen it and I was sort of laughing to myself and I go, put my phone down. I was watching TV. I thought I'm going to hear from that company again.
About 10, 10 minutes, not even 10, but five minutes later. My phone, I get a message, I look at my phone, and it's Cooke Brothers, and he says to me, Robert, I understand your concerns, call this guy. With the phone number Monday, you're in. So I call the guy on Monday, he goes, yeah, I've heard from Fort and I've been selling to Granger's ever since.
Wow. And so I don't recommend that strategy. Not going to, not going to work for everyone. I don't think it'll get you very far, but, um, I mean, it's. Just one of those fluke things, and I mean, I'm actually doing all this [00:49:00] today for Granger. That was years ago. I mean, I'm trying to think, 2014, I think? It was a long time ago.
[00:49:08] Josh: Well, you never know. You might, you might have caught him at the right time. He might have, you know, might have been reflecting on some of those issues that you were, you were pointing out, and you know, you might have, you might have, you might have sent that message at just the, at just the perfect time.
Well, I mean, you did, clearly you did.
[00:49:24] Robert: Yeah, you know, uh, there is a little strategy when you're contacting people don't I don't contact anyone on a Monday.
[00:49:30] Josh: Mm
[00:49:31] Robert: hmm Monday morning is when I just dump with emails. No Excuse me this long. Um You know, I usually try like, you know, Friday Friday night or over the weekend.
I was in like LinkedIn messages I find to get a better Better response, you know, like I said, so many variables, but, you know, to get those, you've got to constantly, you know, um, you know, contact these people, you know, [00:50:00] you have to keep getting to the top of the email, um, you know, and say, you know, if you're not the right person, can you recommend who is, you know, instead of like saying, I have this product and they ignore it.
But if you say, I have this product, are you the right person, are you the right buyer? For this category, not always, but sometimes I go on, I pull this by, you know, such and such is, you know, here's his contact and then you get ahold of the right person. Yeah,
[00:50:33] Josh: just, just, it's just people on the other side of that.
Right.
[00:50:37] Robert: Yep. But if you can do something to stand out too,
[00:50:41] Josh: sure.
[00:50:42] Robert: Don't be just right or really, you know, right. Something with a bit of passion in it. Something, a human connection, you just say, um, you know, I'm with. Uh, Southwestern Manufacturing and I have this, you know, say hi, I'm Bob, I love your, love your LinkedIn, I love your profile, you've done some amazing things, [00:51:00] you know, start out with something like that, that gives a human connection.
[00:51:05] Josh: Well, more like you would do in person, right? Yeah, I mean, you don't like, you know, drop your resume on somebody before you, you know, get into a conversation over, you know, cocktails at a dinner reception, right? Like, you know. Yeah. So could you talk a little bit to, uh, you know, kind of in the, you know, the business domain, you know, a little bit more about your distribution models.
I thought this was pretty creative as well.
[00:51:29] Robert: Yeah, sure. So, um, I have one, you know, one product, the multi wedge, um, how I got into the stores. Simon, most of the big ones. Um, I went to a trade show, uh, one of the SEMA trade show. It's a specially equipment manufacturers and the union association. I've been going to that for years.
That's kind of the largest automotive trade show, business to business. So, [00:52:00] um, I went there. little side story. I wanted to visit distributors there. So I'm a manufacturer and it's a manufacturer's show so they don't like you taking products in, you know, like they call it suitcase thing where you're going to try and sell to the vendors.
You're not, you're not supposed to do that. Well, that's exactly what I wanted to do. So the first show I went to, I actually, Um, I wanted to take my wedges in with me. Well, I couldn't do that. So what I did is before I went in, I actually put them in my socks and I went and got my badge and I walked through and I had all these wedges.
In my socks. So what I've been, what I did is I went up to the booth and got one of the bags, you know, they, you know, someone will sponsor these bags that everyone puts all their brochures and stuff in and I went and got that and I, I went out, out, I went, I don't know whether, [00:53:00] no, I went, I think I went to the, the restroom and I took all my wedges out and literature that I had and I put it in the bag and then I just walked back into the show.
So I had my product, my flyers, everything with me, so that's how I first got into the show. So, um, I went and talked to, I ended up talking to one of the sales reps and said, Hey, I want to get my product into all the stores and I know it's really difficult. So the stores don't want one, one vendor because, you know, if you have 10, 000 products and you have 10, 000 vendors, then it's a nightmare.
They like someone to have sort of pretty much all the tools, you know. You know, all the tires, batteries, et cetera. So the sales rep recommended that he said, well, you know, you could do a private label. Or another tool company that's already in there. And I thought, I never really thought about it. And I thought, Oh, that's a good idea.
So he gave me a recommendation of a company, a tool company [00:54:00] that was kind of a midsize company where you could actually get a hold of people. It wasn't one of the big tool companies, you know, you never really seemed to get anywhere. So you didn't have to
[00:54:10] Josh: tell them they sucked on a Sunday afternoon.
[00:54:14] Robert: Right. So, um, yep. So I went and saw this company and I said, Hey, can I, You know, I have this tool product. I know, I know for a fact that this tool company was in like, you know, O'Reilly's AutoZone, all of the, all the majors. So I said, could I do a private label for you guys? And, um, and they said, yeah, for sure.
And the guy gave me his card. And so what I did was I, you know, I had my tool, my brand, and I put it in their packaging. So, um, I started off doing that in 2011, I think, and I'm still doing that today. So that way [00:55:00] you can add, so it looks good for them when they go to a buyer meeting, they go, have you got any new products?
Well, they show my product. And it looks good for them, and their development cost is basically zero. Yeah, right. It doesn't cost them anything, um, and it doesn't cost me anything either. So, it's a, you know, if you get the right partnership, it can work really well. So, I would have, You know, I did a couple of other private labels, so I'd have the same, the same card, like this is, this is it here.
Yeah. Um, this is still current today. So I'd have the same size card, my tools in here with a blister. And then if I got a new private label or the only thing I'd be changing is basically the artwork of that actual company. So my costs, if I have a couple of private labels or my costs are exactly the same, it doesn't change.
So the same, the same packaging machine. The same [00:56:00] blister, the same size card. The only thing different is the artwork.
[00:56:04] Josh: Right.
[00:56:04] Robert: So, so you have the, the only sort of downsides you have to give them a really competitive cost, but then also on the upside is you have no warehousing, no sales reps, no employees. Um, excuse me.
So, so it works really, you know, it works really well. I've been doing that for, uh, 2011 today. I'm still doing that today.
[00:56:32] Josh: So are they, are they doing the actual, um, manufacturing and inventory storage as well then for those private labeled, labeled products?
[00:56:41] Robert: All right. No, I I do all of it. I do that
[00:56:44] Josh: part though.
Okay,
[00:56:45] Robert: so I have a manufacturer in um, california
[00:56:49] Josh: Okay,
[00:56:50] Robert: actually, uh compton. Um that does all the manufacturing Um, it's a really nice family. They have molded my wedges since [00:57:00] 1999
[00:57:01] Josh: Oh, that's fantastic.
[00:57:02] Robert: Yeah, and they still do it today. I'm doing orders right now with them and The kind of really cool story I really like is one of the ladies that started packaging my wedges when I first, first started.
I've been doing it that long that her daughter grew up and she's now working and packaging my wages with her mother.
[00:57:24] Josh: Multi generational family operation now.
[00:57:28] Robert: Yeah. So, I mean, they're a great, they're a great, we've had a great relationship. Um, I mean, some of my distributors, I don't have contracts at all. I don't have any agreements.
The agreements are verbal. I, you know, I don't recommend it. Just saying in my, you know, in my. That's what, uh, that's what I've done. You know, we've talked about, um, you know, the guy said, well, you know, we're not going to rip you off. We'll buy from you. And, um, you know, [00:58:00] we're not going to knock your product off.
And, and, uh, it was basically a handshake, you know, 15 years ago. And it's still good. I mean, I give them really good pricing too. And I look after them like my, my molder. I pay him the same day, you know, a few times he's caught up today. Hey, can I buy? One time he said, can I borrow 20, 000? I said, sure. I sent him 20, 000, you know, just, and he ended up sending it back.
He didn't need it, just, you know, when you get a, a different business than you, you know, you just need a little bit of, so that, that's the kind of relationship, you know, we've had since nine, like 25 years. So his son has just taken over. In the last couple of weeks.
[00:58:46] Josh: That's great. I mean you treat, you know, you treat people well.
[00:58:50] Robert: That's what I feel. I mean you can have a, you know, a twenty, thirty page contract. You know, and if someone's going to take advantage of you, they're going to [00:59:00] do it with or without a contract. You know? That's been my experience anyway.
[00:59:05] Josh: Yep. Exactly. Right. Yeah, exactly. And then you get to, and then you get to fight it out in court.
So yeah, work with, work with people you can trust. Hire people you can trust. Partner with people
[00:59:15] Robert: you can trust. Right. You know, I get a gut feeling when I'm talking to somebody.
[00:59:20] Josh: Absolutely.
[00:59:21] Robert: I'm not always right, but you know, nine times out of 10, I'm right. Yep. And, but you know, if you're dealing with a big corporation that, you know, that's not very friendly, like not on a day to day basis, you know, then, you know, a contract's really valuable.
Right.
[00:59:35] Josh: They should really be, they should really be called disagreements, right? Because that's when, that's when they're, that's when they're used. Yep. So one, one more, um, Because we, you know, we, we cater to inventors so much, so much of our audience here. Um, what's the, what's the biggest piece of advice you'd give to those, um, newer to inventing?[01:00:00]
[01:00:02] Robert: I would really focus on the market research of the product. You know, to me, that's really core, like actually finding out if it's a good product from, from the very beginning, before you invest a lot of time and money in it, um, like I said, my little story about putting my wages on the job site, I think absolutely a hundred percent focus on that.
And that is going to give you invaluable information on that product design. the uses for it. So then you can cater your market from from day one to that, you know, to your your core customer. You know what? What you're passionate about may not be what the customer is passionate about. Um, so absolutely number one above everything I would put doing proper market research, like a classic example.
When I thought of the M. R. Dealership That was my passion. That's what I [01:01:00] thought. And I was completely wrong. Completely wrong.
[01:01:04] Josh: So,
[01:01:05] Robert: um, you know, and also these other, you know, there could be other uses for your product that you never thought of. Um, so like having little focus groups is invaluable as well. So just the core of your product has to start out with really, really good market research.
Absolutely critical. I mean, it can be a lot bigger than you thought, depending on the market.
[01:01:31] Josh: Yeah, absolutely. You know, and I think, you know, passion obviously is a huge part of that too. Um, I can't remember if you said to me in person or I saw the video once, but you said that, you know, one of the most, you know, obviously everybody wants to make money in doing these things, but you said, you know, one of the most important things is, you know, inventing is doing it for nothing, but there's a good chance your product won't work anyway, so you haven't lost anything, you know?
Um, and I think that, you know, nobody goes into it not wanting to make anything, but there's, there's something to be said about, you know, following your passions, building [01:02:00] what, building what you want and, you know, soaking all of your own equity, your own sort of sweat equity into it. Um, because you're probably going to end up with a better product.
And then if, like you said, if it doesn't work, you're, you know, you're not, you're not out, you're not out as much. I thought there was, thought there was, thought there was a lot of wisdom in that. Um, and, you know, too, just like kind of in, you know, wrapping up a little bit, um. You know, not, not everyone out there is going to have to dodge, you know, bullets, um, or maybe benefit from crossing paths with, you know, one of the, one of the most uniquely qualified CMOs, uh, chief marketing officer, just the right time.
Um, but I think that, you know, so much of what you've done, uh, broadly applies or, you know, could apply to, to so many inventors, right? I mean, you, you personally discovered a problem and you used a skill set that you had developed to seek out a solution for that. Um, you didn't over leverage yourself or give up control of your company to investors, right?
Like instead, you found a [01:03:00] minimally viable facility to work in, uh, good old Bob's Machine Shop. Uh, you did a side hustle to keep yourself fed, you know, with, uh, with learning how to be a plumber on the job. And, uh, you know, you applied your own sweat equity to the R& D. Your initial vision didn't meet your what you thought was going to be product market fit, but you kept your eyes open.
You look for new opportunities and you pivoted, um, you know, and then you found really creative ways to gain market traction and, you know, come up with a clever distribution system and I just think like broadly speaking for everyone out there, you know, inventing is both the big and the small and it's, you know, it's collectively all of these, all of these little inventions, um, you know, wedges to everything and beyond that, like, make up the miracle that is modern life.
Um, and it's really about recognizing some need. You know, tirelessly working towards a solution like you have, um, you know, and then staying, staying nimble and open to the sort of the new opportunities and [01:04:00] paths that might just sort of present themselves along the way. And, um, I just want to say personally, you know, I, I love the journey you've taken, um, what you've learned along the way, the decisions you've made from that.
And, uh, you know, I, I really think it's, it's like the great American, you know, in invention story and in my opinion. So, um, I hope others get a lot out of this. I know, I know, I know I did. Um, so for, for what it's worth, like, you know, congratulations on the, on the successes and, um, and again, for what's like fantastic work on, on, on, on doing it the right way, you know, I, what I, I, what we think, what we think is the right way.
Um, So, and yeah, and just thank you for taking all of this time and sharing those experiences with me, with our audience. Um, I think that, I think the folks are going to get a lot out of this.
[01:04:50] Robert: Great. No, thanks for having me. And I really enjoy, um, telling my story and I absolutely love helping, you know, inventors with their [01:05:00] ideas.
You know, I get a, I get a lot of satisfaction out of it. Um, I think it's really important, you know, for the economy, for people to keep inventing and You know, finding solutions or even simple things, you know, really enjoy it. And, you know, i'm as passionate today about my product as I was 25 years ago. I still still 100 believe in it
[01:05:24] Josh: Yep.
Yep. Yep. You can tell for anybody who's just listening to the podcast. Uh, you know, you won't, you won't see those, those, those on YouTube, you know, Robert's been, you know, grinning ear to ear talking about this stuff, the, you know, the entire, the entire time. And, uh, yeah, I think that really, that really says something fine.
Find something you enjoy doing. You're not going to work a day in your life. So, and, and every now and then you get to hop on a jet ski and, uh, you know, take it down to Bimini Island.
[01:05:50] Robert: Yep. Gotta have some fun too.
[01:05:54] Josh: You do. You really do. All right. Well, thank you. Thank you so much, Robert. I really appreciate it.[01:06:00]
[01:06:00] Robert: Okay. No, thanks, Josh. It's been super fun.
[01:06:03] Josh: All right. That's all for today, folks. Thanks for listening and remember to check us out at AuroraPatents. com for more great podcasts, blogs, and videos covering all things patent strategy. And if you're an agent or attorney and would like to be part of the discussion or an inventor with a topic you'd like to hear discussed, Email us aurorapatents.
com. Do remember that this podcast does not constitute legal advice, and until next time, keep calm and patent on.
