Margaret Wheatley & Peter Block: Who Do We Choose to Be?

The Common Good podcast is a conversation about the significance of place, eliminating economic isolation and structures of belonging.  This episode is the Abundant Community Conversation from August 2 where Amy Howton speaks with Meg Wheatley and Peter Block about the new edition of Meg’s book, Who Do We Choose to Be? This event was produced in partnership with The Berkana Institute, Designed Learning, Abundant Community and Common Change. These conversations happen on Zoom and they always contain poetry, small groups and an exploration of a particular theme.

The next conversation is on September 14 with David Brooks. You can register here.

The recited poem: From the Elders of the Hopi Nation

To My Fellow Swimmers:

Here is a river flowing now very fast. It is so great and swift that there are
those who will be afraid, who will try to hold on to the shore. They are
being torn apart and will suffer greatly.

Know the river has its destination. The elders say we must let go of the
shore, push off into the middle of the river and keep our heads above water.

And I say see who is there with you and celebrate. At this time in history,
we are to take nothing personally, least of all ourselves. For the moment
that we do, our spiritual growth and journey comes to a halt.

The time of the lone wolf is over. Gather yourselves. Banish the word
struggle from your attitude and your vocabulary.

All that we do now must be done in a sacred manner and in celebration.
For we are the ones we have been waiting for.

This episode was produced by Joey Taylor and the music is from Jeff Gorman. You can find more information about the Common Good Collective here. Common Good Podcast is a production of Bespoken Live & Common Change - Eliminating Personal Economic Isolation. 

Transcript

Amy: I'd like to read a piece that I was introduced actually through Meg and the Warriors for the Human Spirit training that she's done. So this is from the elders of the Hopi Nation. to my fellow swimmers. Here is a river flowing now very fast. It is so great and swift that there are those who will be afraid who will try to hold on to the shore. They are being torn apart and will suffer greatly. Know that the river has its destination. The elders say we must let go of the shore push off into the middle of the river. And keep our heads above water and I say, see who is there with you and celebrate at this time in history. We are to take nothing personally least of all ourselves for the moment. We do our [00:01:00] spiritual growth and journey come to a halt. The time of the lone wolf is over gather yourselves. Banish the word struggle from your attitude and from your vocabulary. All that we do now must be done in a sacred manner and in celebration for we are the ones we've been waiting for.

So it's so good to be together in this conversation and I want to begin through a conversation around gifts. Given that you to have quite a history of working together. I want to offer up an opportunity for each of you to speak to the gifts that you've received from 1 another. Particularly as it relates to the work of community and leadership, Meg, I'm, I'm thinking of you as I offer this question up. You often will say, take our seat. So, I [00:02:00] feel like this is a chance for us to take our seat and to acknowledge to 1 another. the gifts that we've offered. So, Peter, I want to invite you to begin us off. What is the gift? What are the gifts that you've received from Meg in her work? 

Peter: my friendship with you, Meg, has been one long affirmation. I need constant reassurance that I'm not crazy and I've always found that from you and also just acceptance for size of myself that I may not want to advertise, but I realize it just fine. My favorite, one of our origin stories, and you know what I'm going to say. I do. We're doing this session in Washington, D. C. and we're breaking into small groups and we ask people. What's the question you have of God. this is how we bring this distorted spirituality into our relationship. And so they, when they come back and say what were the questions you have of God and they start asking about purpose everything. And then all of a sudden I noticed that Megan I are answering. That's their question. And I thought, [00:03:00] finally, I found a partner who will answer questions people have of God with me. And I, I've fallen in love so many times, I've lost track, but that was one of them. 

Meg: That's right. Peter came into my life because we both published the first books from Barrett Kohler. Peter published Stewardship and I published Leadership in the New Science. actually, I needed a lot of support at that time, because I thought everyone would just love the ideas that were backed up by evidence of a better way to lead, a simpler way to lead. And that wasn't the case. So I experienced a lot of attacks and a lot of self doubt, even though I knew the paradigm was right. And Peter, you were always there for that. And then we started working together, offering, different in many different settings, including the God one, which is still. What I love to do answer the big questions. [00:04:00] Yes, you do. Yes. But it's just been a constant and we haven't worked that much together within the totality of everything we've done. But we always know we're circling one another. And anytime, especially in the past few years, when we have talked it's just been wonderful. So this is a great opportunity as well but I could always talk to you about the things I most cared about. and then we worked together in, I think, quite funny, wonderful ways. I'm going to tell you another incident, and I think it was somewhere in the Midwest, where we had planned this ahead of time. So Peter always had these great concepts that he would ask people to evaluate the program before it started. Which I have used ad nauseum at this point. I think it's wonderful. But then you also ask people to rearrange the room to suit themselves as learners. And so wherever we were, it was [00:05:00] somewhere in the Midwest, but we had planned this ahead of time. You got up and said in your very participative, invitational way, Okay, I'd like you now to arrange the room, you know, come forward, sit wherever you want on for your own learning. And so everyone got excited and rearranged the chairs, came forward. There was a row of black men sitting in the back. And then I came on and in my role, I love being the autocrat just said, now, Peter, this is just nonsense. I want everyone in rows. And I was very authoritarian and everyone obeyed. 

Peter: No surprise, I forgot that moment.

Meg: And meanwhile, this very wise group of black males was sitting in the back going, Yeah, just look at these white folks. They're so ridiculous. And then I think you came back on and we rearranged it again. We were just playing with [00:06:00] people's level of obedience, but you don't remember that I 

Peter: do. I remember the exercise very, very well.

Meg: Yeah. 

Peter: The idea behind that hasn't shifted. And the point was, \ who do you choose to be? Well, that's up to you, and you, you can decide how you want to occupy this room, even though you didn't create it. 

Meg: And take responsibility for creating the conditions for your learning. 

Peter: another gift you are is that you've always had the courage to be out front with the speaking in language, and you made despair honorable. You've made hope ridiculous as an addiction to hope. Yes. it gives me the courage, because all of us have doubts, let's put it that way. And so you quiet my doubts and say, well, there's somebody farther out than I am. So, 

Meg: let's move on because what has also united us is a [00:07:00] love of people. And an understanding that we need to be together. I work with the principle that humans can get through anything as long as we're together. And that's been the common love in 

Amy: our life. Yes. Yes. And Meg, I think that's a beautiful springboard actually into this next piece. I'm just, I'm moved hearing the two of you speak about how each of you have impacted one another and the work. So say something about what this has to do being seen and experiencing one another's gifts and being in relationship in the way that each of you are speaking the kind of relationship that you've experienced with one another. What does that have to do with the work of community? And what have you learned from those kinds of relationships?

Meg: Well, I want to take the lead here because, Many years ago, I was working for the head of the U. S. Army, General Gordon Sullivan. And at the beginning of my work for him, [00:08:00] he read me a letter that General Sherman had written to General Grant at the end of the Civil War about why they had won the war. And General Sullivan, when he read the letter to me, Said, Meg, when you understand this, you will understand what it means to be a soldier. I would now say what it means to be a warrior because I've used this in the warrior program. So General Sherman in this handwritten letter to his commanding general said, I always knew you thought of me. And if I got in a tight place, you would come if alive. Hmm. And I have tried to create. That level of community among the warriors that if you call me, I will come if alive, that's the ultimate form of community for me, everything else is [00:09:00] approaching that we can't disappear, we need to know that whatever I say, not going to offend you in such a way that you leave, you check out. Or you come after me and this has become more and more radical as a set of expectations for behavior inside community because we're all afraid. We're also easily fearful of difference, the other. and uncertainty. So to really feel that you will come if I call. Now I have that relationship with you, Peter, and I have it with a few other people, mainly my spiritual teachers.

Peter: Thank you. That's a great. It's real that I'm included in that. That's what hospitality. That's the welcome. I love the notion. See, we're marketed. Our differences we're bombarded by it. yours is a voice that says that's not who we are. What's funny. We know how to bring people into a [00:10:00] room after they decide what kind of experience they choose to have, Mm-hmm. And to realize that people are caused, what creates that community is people realizing that we are caused not effect. And we rearrange the room and then we break 'em into small groups. And in 15 minutes, They fall in love with each other. If you get the question right, such as what's the crossroads you're at at this stage, we all have our question. And it's so achievable and so rare. What strikes me is how rare it is still every time we gather, we still have somebody up front talking and somebody down. 

Meg: I want to move past the welcome. I want to know what happens next. People fall in love with each other. They realize there's potential in this relationship. They even want to work together. And then it dissipates. It fragments. So what I love about the Army quote is, it creates a depth of commitment to stay in the [00:11:00] relationship. And that is increasingly rare. But if you share continually meaningful experiences as a community, And you're willing to notice when the dynamics of this time are just pulling us apart, either from busyness, overwhelm, exhaustion, or fear. And I want to know how we keep people together in community. And there you have all your years of experience with Cincinnati. 

Amy: It strikes me listening to the two of you, particularly Meg with this last piece around what capacity is required to be in relationship. And one of the things I think that both of your bodies of work point to is it's both the external conditions, creating space to bring people together, but you also each point to inner conditions as well. Thank you. And so I wonder if you could say something about that, because it feels like such an important piece around [00:12:00] how to actually show up and be in the relationship that each of you are speaking to.

Meg: I'm going to let Peter take the lead on this. 

Peter: things 1, I want to. Underlying what you're saying about the army because lives are potentially at stake. They understand the nature of accountability. Yes. Yes. And few other places do that. Maybe emergency rooms. I don't know. And to me, what keeps us together despite the world is having come together by choice. Yes, and realize accountability. So everything you and I do has within it, even if not name the experience of what it's like to be accountable, which is different. That's why the army is so powerful 

Meg: and it's reciprocal accountability. Totally. Let's call 

Peter: it right. It's profound trust. Because the consequences we're trying to wake up the fact that the consequences just as great about whether I know my [00:13:00] neighbors or not. Yes. If I want to be safe. I need to know my neighbors. I don't need to improve police method. Excellent. That's the radical. And the second part is, you know, you mentioned, Amy, it may involve the inside out. But I've lost faith in that. I believe it's outside in also. I just want to change the nature of the outside. I am so powerfully impacted by what surrounds me. My attention now is 100% on the surrounding. The room being a microcosm of the community, the neighborhood. Because I'm afraid if I just focus on inside out, which is important. It's the basis of all spirituality. I'll stop there. And we need each other. Okay, you want to 

argue? Is that what you want to do? 

Meg: Oh, I'm not arguing at all. I think. There's no distinction in my own work now of training warriors for the human [00:14:00] spirit that we are outside we are in meetings and places and with people who trigger us. So then the inside work becomes, how do I notice. Amen. What triggers me and how do I move past it for a greater purpose and the greater purpose is simply I want to stay at the table. I want to stay in those conversations and I can't when I instantly get frustrated or outraged or disbelieve the other people's motivation. So, working with one's mind and how we react and changing that to responsibly. this because I want to stay at the table and I want to bring in one of my very favorite quotes right now from Elizabeth Warren, who said, if you're not at the table, you're probably on the menu. 

Ooh, that makes me hungry. 

I just [00:15:00] love that.

Say that again. If you're not 

at the table, you're probably on the menu. 

Peter: way I know I'm on the menu is when I want to go shopping when I think I can purchase out there something that I require. I'm on the menu because I bought the notion that I'm not enough. Allowed myself to be triggered. I agree, which is what you said. And the thing, an interesting thing about being triggered is to understand that all you have to do is witness it and not do anything about it. because the triggers never go away. They just know they do 

Meg: go. 

Peter: No, they do. No, I haven't. 

Meg: Well, yeah, so, okay. Okay. 

Amy: You too.

Okay. You too. I'm coming in here. Yeah, come on. I

Meg: just want to emphasize Amy. Just give me this 1 moment. Okay. What we're talking about here when we talk about inner work and outer work for me [00:16:00] is. What is the work we need to be doing and how do we do it with greater effectiveness? And that's why I'm focused on warriorship, which involves a lot of the inner work of, and you can change your triggers. I've changed most of my triggers at this point. But why do I bother? It's not for self improvement or inner peace. It's so I can be out there being effective for the people and the causes I care about. 

Amy: Beautiful. Thank you for that. Actually, it brings us kind of back to even the invitation around. What are our gifts? What are the gifts we hold in exile? What are the things that scare us? And what does community have to grow those gifts? What is the role of community and growing those gifts? So I want to have make sure we have some time to be in conversation and breakout room. And so here's the question that's coming up for me and Meg and Peter, I'll offer it and you all help kind of refine this, but I do want [00:17:00] us to return back to the question of why are we here? Why are each of us continuing to say yes to the work of community? And underneath that, maybe it has something to do with the gift, the choice that we are saying yes to in the world right now in terms of who we are. So that's what I'll offer Peter and Meg. I wonder, is there any way that you want to shape that reflection question that we offer up.

Meg: Well, I love the focus on gifts because I want us to see everything we do as an offering out of a spirit of generosity. So it's not based on what I need for approval, for success, for fame, for money. It's what I feel I can offer at this time, but that's an outward focus. And then I take my skills. And I asked the question. Look around what's needed here. And am I the right person to contribute at this point? So for me, it's all about understanding that we are making offerings from our [00:18:00] expertise from our caring from our compassion. There's not a question in there. That's specific enough, but I'm going to give it to you, Peter.

Peter: Well, love what you're saying. so what allows me to show up as an offering, instead of as a need? And what I need is you. I need people around me who are evoking myself as an offering, as a gift. And if people around me have something in mind for me, that makes it harder for me to show up. With my gift and that's the dark side of coaching. It's the dark side of knowing and stuff like that.

Amy: So I'm just going to invite everybody to kind of come into your heart space. We've been taken in a lot and to really listen to this question that we're offering up. What are the gifts that we have to offer? And why are we saying yes to community and enjoy some time together as you really sense into that and then we're going to come back and we're going to continue the conversation [00:19:00] and Megan Peter will be able to hear more from you then 

From the elders of the Hopi nation to my fellow swimmers. Here is a river flowing now very fast. It is so great and swift that there are those who will be afraid who will try to hold on to the shore. They are being torn apart and will suffer greatly. Know that the river has its destination. The elders say we must let go of the shore, push off into the middle of the river, and keep our heads above water. And I say, see who is there with you and celebrate. At this time in history, we are to take nothing personally, least of all ourselves. For the moment we do, Our spiritual growth and journey come to a halt. The time of the lone wolf is over. [00:20:00] Gather yourselves. Banish the word struggle from your attitude and your vocabulary. All that we do now must be done in a sacred manner and in celebration. For we. Are the ones we've been waiting for

As we come back in, I wanted to turn our conversation a little bit to what does it ask of us? What is the courage? What is the capacity that it takes to then live into the gifts? It's one thing to say, here are the gifts, and this is why I'm saying yes to community. It's another thing to actually then take steps in living toward that. So inviting each of you to say something about that 

Peter: question for you make. Yes, in the naming of the book, talk a little bit about it because, you know, you write a book and then after you write it, you find out what it was about. Talk a little bit about how you name. 

Meg: Well, the question of who do we choose to be and it's relevant to your [00:21:00] question, Amy, as well, was something I had started asking leaders as far back as Who do you choose to be? How are you going to use your power and influence on behalf of people, on behalf of the things that we know are important to create. How are you choosing to use what you have? So I could relate it to our gifts. and it takes more than courage to answer that question. It takes perseverance. It takes a commitment to stay. And this is the essence of people who come into warrior for the human spirit training. We have a commitment to stay. As things get worse and worse, and we know that community is the answer for kind of Institute, that's our motto, whatever the problem, community is the answer. And what Peter, what you and I were discussing that once we choose to be someone who [00:22:00] knows the value, the essentialness of being in community, being in healthy relationships. So we choose to say yes to community, but then all hell breaks loose when you're dealing with relationships and the amount of fear and anxiety. And what I want us to focus on is, how do we stay in the midst of all of the issues, conflicts, and problems that arise that we're both very well aware of? How do we stay? And how do we do the hard work of staying in community and that for me is the question at this time it's a good thing to say yes, but what then, what's your level of being able to persevere when things get darker and darker in the external environment and also in our. Personal relationships within any community. So I just want to offer that as a starter for you people. 

Peter: I would add the question, what kind of conversation do I need to be in? [00:23:00] Mm hmm. To persist the thought that I can persevere. Yeah, not persist. No, persistence is superficial to me. Perseverance is a commitment. Okay, I'll start over. Okay. What kind of conversations do I need to be in to persevere? that to me is, is a politically powerful question because it declares that I cannot white knuckle my own healing. I cannot do it through determination. I can't do it by trying harder, reading more, retreating more, taking more classes, going to more training, getting more degrees. Becoming the boss upward. None of that helps. Perseverance comes from being in conversations that let me know that I can be here for you as long as I'm alive. 

Meg: I just want to say amen to that. Good. And that takes courage, right? To open [00:24:00] these conversations. 

Peter: Which conversations are always risky. That's why we spend our lives and some people in the chat say, you know, getting the question right to me is huge. And you want questions to bring count conversations that, that are powerful, that take us somewhere just because we have the conversation, and all of us are engaged in ongoing communities of practice warrior training, all that. And the reason we do it, and the reason we show up today, including you and I, all right, is to be in conversations that take us somewhere.

Meg: There has to be an outcome to these conversations, though. They have to change me. 

Peter: That's beautiful. Changing me. Is an outcome. I don't need bricks and mortar. 

Meg: Changing what I do is an outcome 

Amy: the,

One of the things that's coming up for me listening to you all is it's almost like I'm drawn back to the poem, the piece that I read in the beginning from the Hopi elders, and it's almost hearing [00:25:00] you say, Peter, that we need the conversation. And Maggie said, Amen. It's almost like the conversations in the community work become the river. In which we can really be present to what is being asked of us and what is kind of what it to what is emerging. 

Meg: Now, this is not how I feel about any of this and it's because I'm so focused on staying in the river. Means we are working with adverse oppositional currents that will, if we're trying to stay in community. The dynamics of the, of the external world now are so powerfully destructive of shattering relationships, creating distrust, creating misunderstandings, and in this social media environment of outright threat. and hatred. So for me, staying in that river requires more than conversation. I have to know [00:26:00] you're here for me. How do you know that? Because when I call you, you will come. We need a call. I'm going to call people that I've developed trust with and we're not going to be in a conversation about it. I mean, the reason I'm getting a little passionate, A 

Marion: little.

A little. 

Amy: Yeah. Meg doesn't do anything in a little kind of way, but we know that. Let's look 

Meg: at it. How many conversations have we had? How we have perfected the conversational process and developed all these wonderful means. For me, I have to be open to, as a community, we have to be self aware. We have to notice when we're getting in trouble with our relationships. But the reason we do this is so we can do the work. More effectively, I just want to keep focusing on 

Amy: that. So maybe so [00:27:00] maybe conversation is too limiting a word. Meg, I hear you say that there has to be like, moving to action. It's got to be beyond the conversation, but it is there is something about I think the 2 of you have created conditions. For us to come together as community in new ways of being that will move us to a new place. And that's what I was trying to it feels like it's the river. It feels like that to how to be in the flow. 

Peter: Make a distinction between the conversations that take us somewhere and I use conversations, including the beautiful. Music, including the poetry, including the aesthetics, as opposed to just talk. And most of what the world does is just talk. It thinks analyzing the situation will heal it. And we've spent our lives putting people in rooms. Where they have conversations, because even when you call me, that's a conversation. But what's different is that when you call me, that [00:28:00] exchange between us means something. It's not just talk. It's not how I spent my summer vacation. You're 

Meg: talking about a quality of relationship. 

Peter: Quality of aliveness and quality of relationship, but it gets embodied.

Meg: Okay. So I want to bring, I want to focus a little bit on this awareness of how we are together that for me was the essence of this was an experience friends of mine had with His Holiness, the Dalai Lama when he asked a group, what is the cause of suffering and they all came up with What they thought were right answers. Well, it's injustice, it's poverty, it's war, it's violence, etc. And he shut him down, said, No, no, no, the cause of suffering is when good people begin their work, and then fail to notice what is arising. Between them. So when we're doing the work [00:29:00] in a community way, we're together. We may not be in the same geographic community, but we're linked as a community, whether it's a community of practice or community of warriors or community of whatever. We need to notice what is arising among us all from time to time. And I'm just going to say the external dynamics that we are up against now are intensifying and they are destructive. They push us back into fear and anxiety, which in human physiology means We're back in our reptilian brains and we've lost our consciousness. So coming together in conversation. Self awareness together is necessary, both to take us out of our reptilian fear based behaviors, but also to reconnect and intensify the quality of our [00:30:00] relationship. So that's how I would see the importance of conversation there. Moments of collective awareness so that we can continue to do the work, 

Peter: you know, when you say be aware of what's arising. Can you give me one quick specific so I know the texture and aesthetic of what you're thinking about. 

Meg: So we're increasingly bored at meetings. Or we short 

Peter: chain. So boredom is an example of what's arrived. Well, distrust. No, I'm not. I'm not arguing with you. I'm just trying to give 

Meg: shape to it. It's everything that keeps us from being interested.

Peter: And so to pay attention would be to say, in the midst of my boredom, I'm bored. We're bored. This isn't going anywhere. This isn't taking me, this is not what I came for. Now see, I I love that. Yeah. And to me, every time we gather, including this one, we should ask the questions. are you getting what you came for? Now I what? [00:31:00] They, I don't like, I hate the question too. So let's change question. But something, uh, is this working for you? No, it's anything. So what's the question you would ask in the middle of our gathering to focus? 

Amy: I'm gonna jump in here and say, yes, we are out of time. Okay, what did you see heated bubbly? Like, talk about what's arising. I know all of us can feel like what's arising as we've come together in this conversation. Thank you both so much for being here. Peter and Meg. It's so clear that each of you. Share so much history, and that there's still so much more possible as we come together. So thank you so much for coming for sharing together today. I think 1 of the things that's clear for me around the question of what is arising is it is clear when we come together in these kinds of conversations and relationships and connectedness. That the possibility and the vision for what's future becomes so much more real. And so, thank you for helping that make that [00:32:00] happen today.

I'd also like to thank Abundant Community and Common Good Collective, Designed Learning, and Burkhana Institute. You can find all the websites in the chat for those particular organizations. And additionally, be sure to mark your calendars for September the 14th at 2 p. m. for our next Abundant Community Conversation, where Peter will be speaking with David Brooks.

I'd like to leave you with a piece that we began with this morning. And in some ways, I feel like we've literally experienced this together today. But this is again from the Hopi, from the elders of the Hopi Nation. To my fellow swimmers, here is a river flowing now very fast. It is so great and swift that there are those who will be afraid, who will try to hold on to the shore. They are being torn apart and will suffer greatly. Know that the river [00:33:00] has its destination. The elders say we must let go of the shore, push off into the middle of the river, and keep our heads above the water. I say, see who is there with you and celebrate. At this time in history, we are to take nothing personally, least of all ourselves. For the moment we do, our spiritual growth and journey has come to a halt. The time of the lone wolf is over. Gather yourselves. Banish the word struggle from your attitude and vocabulary. All that we can do now must be done in a sacred manner and in celebration. For we. Are the ones that we've been waiting for.