Tony Jacklin - Part 3 (The Open Championship and Ryder Cup)

One of England's finest golfers ever, Tony Jacklin, begins by recalling his Open Championship victory in 1969 at Royal Lytham and several close calls, with his loss to Lee Trevino at Muirfield in 1972 his toughest loss. Tony played on seven Ryder Cup teams with "The Concession" by Jack Nicklaus at Birkdale in 1969 the most memorable moment. He transformed the Ryder Cup competition over his four stints as European Captain, insisting on a level of support and commitment for his team consistent with that of his opponent, the U.S. side. He has since released his book, Tony Jacklin: My Ryder Cup Journey, which highlights the important role he played in the history of the event. Tony Jacklin concludes his life story, "FORE the Good of the Game."

Transcript

Mike Gonzalez 0:14

Let's move ahead the previous year because as you mentioned, uh holding both championships, both the U.S. Open and the British Open at the same time was quite unusual. And uh uh you won the Open Championship uh back in uh in 1969 at Litham by two over Bob Charles. I took some time last night and and watched again on YouTube the replay of that, which sort of reminded me of your attire for the day. But uh tell us a little bit about your memories of that open championship win. Because as a as an Englishman winning it in England, that had to be extra special.

Tony Jacklin 0:51

Yeah, and uh I I mean, unless an Englishman wins it this week, it's uh it's the only time it's been won since 1938. I think Reg Whitcomb, uh an Englishman, won in 38. But um, yeah, it was uh I'd I'd won Jacksonville. That was a huge step. I don't think I could have won the opening if I hadn't uh got it done at Jacksonville. That was a great uh uh you know win for me. It was a big big step in my uh process player as a uh both for my swing and my mental uh fortitude. And I went to Lyndon uh ready. And uh I'd been in America up to that and of course in America all anybody the only people anybody wanted to follow were Arnold and Jack. And basically guys like me, other than if there was some expats in the thing, we were left alone, you know, to our own But I got I got to Lytham uh that's some uh you know for my practice rounds and I could see there was you know I was attracting galleries and the practice on the practice days and so on and so forth. But people were people were interested in what I was uh doing. And you know, it was kind of nice to know that. And uh, you know, at the end of the day, what are we? You know, we're we're actors, you know, uh and it's nice to have a an audience to play to, and I could sense there was a you know that people had been keeping tabs on what I'd been doing in America and so on and so forth. Um and I just basically got off to a nice steady start. I I think I played with Miller Barber the first two rounds, and I I was just steady. I just I I liked Lytham. I'd done well as I mentioned earlier, I'd uh made made the cut in in uh 63 when Bob Charles beat Phil Rogers. And um didn't do anything special. I just uh it's hard to do shoot low numbers on link on those links courses or it was with the old equipment. Um and uh I really just kept my head and um you know the likes of Thomson and Locke when it came to Lynx golf, there were no better Lynx players than those two, and there were no two individuals I've ever met that were more had more patience than, and I think in large part Thompson learned from Locke, but neither of them were long hitters, and from a Lynx golf standpoint they learned you had to thread the ball, keep out of those damn bunkers. That's right, whatever else, whatever else you do, and you know, to quote Thompson, you just knock it on the green and hold a few putts, you know. That was oversimplification, of course, but but there were no two players that uh played Lynx golf better than them. And I learned a lot from them. I played, I was fortunate enough to play with Lockdown in South Africa uh uh when when I was down there, and of course I played uh a lot of golf with Peter uh Thompson. We became friends. He was he was Peter was very uh good to me. He was a father figure, you know. When I was young, I stayed in his house down in Portsea in Australia one winter, and uh I I had a lot of uh regard for for Peter and what he stood for. And uh I just I just kept a steady head, I didn't do anything spectacular. And and nobody nobody sort of took a run, you know, with a crazy score because th those those courses when they're played with the right equipment defend themselves very well. Uh and uh you know uh it we weren't we weren't knocking nine irons and wedges into par fours, other than that thirteenths that's the short thirteenths, but you know, coming in 15 was a power four, I hit a five iron in there on the last day, fourteen I mean. Yeah. Uh I hit five iron in there, fifteen was a power four, I could hardly get up. Um sixteen was a wedge, seventeen was a medium iron again. Uh I had the longest drive of the day on eighteen and still had seven iron in. Um so uh you know there's course courses defending themselves beautifully because of their architecture and uh uh I mean for example 18 and Bruce will uh remember this, it was very I it was the best drive I hit to that point in my life, the final one, uh Longhurst at Watercorker and and on. But you couldn't play safe on 18 because I couldn't hit it across the cross bunker with a one iron. I couldn't get across the cross bunker with a one-iron. And so and and to go left, you'd have to purposely hit it in the rough to to to to go and why would you want to do that? So uh you know a driver was was the only club uh you could hit, and uh I managed to to do it right. But um this is the you know the uh to have full appreciation of of how it was then and what it's like now is is very difficult unless you're uh getting up to where Bruce and I are in age. I wouldn't recommend that.

Bruce Devlin 7:29

You're a little bit behind me, sir. You're a bit behind me.

Tony Jacklin 7:33

I know that, but I'm I'm catching up. You hit a lot of one irons that week. Yeah. I mean uh you know, one uh one iron for me on uh Lynx course, as as Jack Jack won the he's open in 66 at Mirrorfield with a one-iron. Yeah. I mean the the rough was like sky high uh there. And uh we all lent very heavily on uh on the one iron. It was a great uh club for off the tee on all of the pathway, you know, the ball would be running 40-50 yards. Yeah. Um and uh it was an invaluable club. Uh I remember talking to uh who the hell was it uh at the USGA when when these um rescue clubs came into being and we're at St Andrews, and I was having a conversation with uh said, you know, these rescue clubs are famous for putting the ball up in the air. And uh I said, that's the last place you want to be. You know, on this golf. And he looks at me with uh like a days, he give he gave me a day. I said, never mind, never mind. Uh carry on. Um and of course, it it's but it's the truth. I mean, you you know, uh all those Lynx golf courses, you don't want the ball more than uh uh twenty feet in the air at any given time if you can help it.

Mike Gonzalez 9:08

What what were some of your what were your fame or uh I suppose favorite open venues?

Tony Jacklin 9:13

Well, I like I like Burtdell, I like Lydham. Hoy Lake was was okay. Turnbury, love Turnbury. Um St Andrews, because you know, all of the history and uh you know St. Andrews. Troon, uh I yeah, I like Trune pretty good. This one this week was the least uh, you know, and it's fascinating. Everybody I've had interviewed is a similar, you know, has a similar view of it. Even Langer, who finished third there three times, I think, says he didn't particularly like the golf course. It's not got and it's an ex extraordinary thing. I was saying to um my son, uh Warren who's lives in Germany. I was talking to him earlier in the day. Sandwich is the only golf course. I think Lytham is the one that's next south. There's no there's no other open venue in the south of England, which is remarkable. I mean, there's some fantastic golf course, Lynx golf courses, like Brancaster and Hunstanton in Norfolk. Um, there's you know, a couple of courses in Devon. You would have thought that the RNA might have been in search of another option other than uh sandwich, just because, you know, because all the other courses were uh north, uh Scotland and uh northeast of England in Lancashire. Uh and it's uh it's it's quite strange to me that that's uh that's the case, but there we are.

Mike Gonzalez 11:06

If you could pick one other UK course to host the open that hasn't ever hosted it, which one would you want to see the open on?

Tony Jacklin 11:13

Well, uh there's well, as I've mentioned too, Hunston and and Brancaster in Norfolk. There's uh Saunton in Devon. We played the British PGA there back in the mid-60s. Uh they're all wonderful places. There's some uh as far as Lynx golf goes, you know, uh the there are some outstanding courses, I mean, many of which I've uh probably played and forgotten, but uh you know I uh I go back a long time. It's uh the uh this the the new course, for example, at at St Andrews uh King's Barnes is is wonderful. Not that's very close to where Bruce and uh Sam Torrance did uh their courses at uh at the big hotel there. The Fairmont. But I think King yeah Fairmont. But uh King's Barnes turned out uh very nice uh as as well. But uh it it it it's it seems to me that they should have uh a couple more options uh south of Lytham.

Bruce Devlin 12:28

Yeah.

Tony Jacklin 12:28

Uh and and and Sandwich is it, basically. And that's you know what that seems to happen every time.

Mike Gonzalez 12:36

Yeah, some of them just don't have the infrastructure, I suppose, to support this big an event anymore, but places like Rye would be fun.

Tony Jacklin 12:43

Yeah, I've uh I only went there once years and years ago.

Mike Gonzalez 12:48

Well, let's talk about a few other close calls because you had a really nice run at the Open Championship for several years running, and and uh uh just ticked through a few of them very quickly. 1967, you were fifth at Hoylake. Uh Roberto Di Vincenzo won his only major championship there. Uh Bruce Devlin was tied for eighth that event, but you led uh with uh JW Nicholas after 36, didn't you?

Tony Jacklin 13:12

I guess. I mean it's a long long while long while I I had a good week, I played well, and um you know I uh 67 was it was a big year for me. You know, I ended up having that hole in one at at uh latter part of the year at Sandwich, winning the Dunlop Masters, playing well at the open, getting my tour card, playing my first Ryder Cup, uh, or being on my first Ryder Cup team. So 67 was uh yeah. And I played well the next year at 68 at Carnousty where Gary won until the last day. And then I I lost it, you know, at as as you can at uh Carnasty.

Bruce Devlin 14:03

It is a tough golf course, isn't it? Man.

Tony Jacklin 14:07

Yeah, sure as hell is. But uh and then of course 69 was uh was uh great. 70 uh could have been any anything, who knows? I I the Prime Minister was on uh first T and uh you know I'd had a great great year. We had a very benign d uh w weather uh uh dominating uh and everybody was shooting low scores at St Andrews and uh and I shot 29 the front nine um and birdied ten. Uh uh and and parred, parred, parred, and then the heavens opened and washed the d everything. We had to come back the next morning. And uh of course the golf course wasn't the same and no no neither was I. And and the the weather continued actually to deteriorate through the week. Uh that that being said, I I um I dropped three shots when we went out early the second day, and then uh ended up I had a putt on the last green to finish third and I finished I missed it and finished fifth or something. You know, but my score went up three shots every day, as as it can, as Bruce knows. I think I shot 67, 70, 73, 76. And and that was obviously the year uh Doug uh Sanders missed that little putt and Jack won the playoff. But um it I I you know I could have uh if I could have got into the clubhouse that first round, I might it might have been a different story for me. But 71 was a Berkeley I finished third, uh Trevino, uh Mr. Lou, who finished second, pollaxed a lady in the gallery on the last hole, and the ball bounced back in the middle of the fairway, and he got it up and down to finish second. Uh and then of course in 72, well, maybe you know, uh um that was uh weird.

Bruce Devlin 16:37

That was a weird finish.

Tony Jacklin 16:39

Yeah, yeah. Well, I I uh I was obviously playing with Trevino the last uh two days, and uh you know I I it's never e it would well, it was never easy playing with him because you had to deal with all the banter, you know. I'm the one who there if somebody made a reference to it the other day on TV and they mentioned the wrong player, but I'm the guy who said, you know, at the it this was at the world match play in 68. I said, Lee, I don't want to talk, let's just play golf. And he said, You don't have to talk, just listen. Well, you know, I had I had plenty to listen to for those uh last two days, but I I played well and stayed with him, and he chipped in five times on those last two rounds, and I enjoyed it, you know. I I kept on, I kept with him, I kept with him, kept with him, and the upshot was I was in front of the 20 yards short of the 71st green, the 17th there in two, and he was over the back in four. I made six, he made five.

Bruce Devlin 17:59

Yeah.

Tony Jacklin 17:59

Thank you very much. And uh that that uh to say, you know, to say it was shocking would would be an understatement. But um it happened, and um you know, I didn't I I didn't hit the fly away on the final eye in the right bunker, and I didn't even get to finish second Jack jumped in. But but the remarkable thing about that week, apart from uh mean you know uh succumbing We we teed off on the final day Jack had won the Masters that week uh and he'd and he'd won the PGA now hang on, he'd won the Masters He'd won two majors.

Bruce Devlin 18:50

So he won the US Open, was it?

Tony Jacklin 18:52

He won the US Open and and but and the Masters. And Trevina said to me, remember he was saying it on the first day, he said he might beat one of us, but he won't beat both of us, because he was thinking about the Grand Slam. Yeah, you know, there was a the the Grand Slam was a possibility. Yeah, I remember. And he had just won a Pebble Beach, that's right. He might beat one of us, but he because he was uh he was either five uh ahead of one and six ahead of the other, or we were five or six ahead of him. By the time we stood on the ninth T Jack was stood on the eleventh T and he passed us. Both. He he uh you would look it you can look it up, but then Lee and I both eagled the nine. I eagled nine on top of him, and and we got back into us, you know, into a close-knit sort of three of us were all very close. But the fact of the matter was that front nine, uh, I don't know whether he shot 31 or 32 or whatever it was, but he passed us by the time uh we were on the night sea, and we got wind of that. It was uh it was a remarkable open that in in more ways than one. And uh one uh thank God I'd won one. And uh, you know, if that had been my only uh chance, it would have been a career terminator, probably.

Bruce Devlin 20:30

Yeah.

Mike Gonzalez 20:31

Well, let's uh let's talk a little bit about uh about some Ryder Cup experiences because as a player you had a chance to play, I think, on about seven teams, if uh maybe numbers are right, and and uh captain several times as well. Of course, you're most famous with Jack for uh what happened at Burkdale in 1969.

Tony Jacklin 20:51

Yeah, the concession, yeah. Well well, we've got I've actually got a book uh coming out in the next uh couple of months called My Ryder Cup Journey, and uh supposed to for a lot of people uh back in the UK my Ryder Cup exploits surpass what I sort of did as a player. Uh but um I had a lot of fun with it. Um and um you know the the the the uh playing was uh the first time I played at 67 was when when Hogan was uh captain at Champions in Houston, uh Jackie Book and Jimmy Demeritz place. And that was uh you know fond memory. I remember all the American players, uh Johnny Pot and Kay Brewer, and they were all frightened to death of Hogan coming anywhere near them. Oh, I don't I don't want him watching me, you know, because Hogan was such a perfectionist and they were all uh anyway. Uh you know, as a player, I I my last effort as a player was was the first uh I mean I was playing in America during that whole period and apart from 69 at at uh Royal Boat Dale, uh, which was a sort of watershed yeah, I'd been to the Ryder Cup, I think I mentioned earlier, uh, with my dad in 57 as a 13-year-old. That got my juices flying to want to be a professional, and then uh going back uh to to to to to Burkdale uh was uh two months after I became open champion and it was a different format to what it is now. We played two singles the final day. Uh and uh I beat Jack in the morning, he hadn't played had a good day, he wasn't having a good day, and and of course we we tied in the afternoon, and uh ultimately he gave me this uh two-footer and it was twenty inches to two feet. You can go to YouTube and watch that and uh make up your own mind. But uh it was a grand gesture at the time, and uh I was uh I think I might have made it, but we'll never know. Um I was very uh very uh happy in those circumstances to accept the gimme and uh but that was the first tie obviously in in history. We built a a golf course that you might have had the chance to see earlier this year. We played world championship there by accident because it of COVID it didn't we didn't go to Mexico, the tour didn't go to Mexico, so uh the course got um some nice publicity earlier this year, February I think it was, and everybody had favorable things to say about it. It turned out it's it stood up well, didn't it? It turned out uh well and uh the owner uh Bruce Cassidy's a very fine gentleman and uh good friend, and I was happy for him uh and all the membership. It was uh it was a great opportunity to showcase the place. Um so uh you know much has been said about uh the concession. Actually, they've got a uh they've just announced as well a Nicholas Jacqueline Award, which will be presented at each Ryder Cup from now on, you know, for the player who shows sportsmanship and uh the opportunity to you know function under high pressure. And in fact, most golfers are functioning under high pressure all the time. Uh but uh so it was a nice honor to have that that that happened. But uh, you know, going back to the 80s where I was um asked to be captain, that was a another uh it was a i it's a story, it's a long story, and I can't, you know, but I was at I was at loggerheads with the uh European establishment and uh not not very happy with things. Sevy was left off the team in 81, he was arguably the bless best player in the world. Um there was a lot going on and a lot that that I thought was wrong about what was going on. And they came and asked me to be captain six months before uh the matches were due to take place at uh Palm Beach Gardens and I I mean I had no opportunity to have any player picks. Um and I'd done with the Ryder Cup, I didn't want to know anything about it. Uh I I said I need to talk to you tomorrow. And because of my situation and the fact that I was disgruntled about the whole thing, I thought, well it's an opportunity maybe to to to to get some things done. So I I s I told them I wanted carte blanche to do do it the way I saw it, and and uh they they said okay. And I you know, I wanted to to fly Concord like the American team were, we were on the back of the bus on British Airways, not knowing who was paying for the drinks. We'd wear you know, we would wear anything anybody would give us plastic shoes, the clothing was awful. And you know, we never had a team room, we never had a a room where you could go and chell and and become a a team, get to know each other better and all the rest of it. You know, the the the pairings for the following day were always given to us in this corner of some smelly locker room, and oh you're playing with him and you're doing this, and then we'd all clear off and you could go wherever you wanted with your wife or partner for dinner. You know, that that was no way to uh create a team spirit, and uh so I demanded you know a team room where uh you could get everything you wanted, uh food, beverage, you know, there was no reason to be anywhere else. As a team member, nobody from outside was allowed in there. Anyway, they kept saying yes, and so I you know I said yes, and then uh I went to Lord Darby, who was in charge of the he was president of the PGA, and I said, What about Sevi? You know, because Sevy was he missed the 81 matches, as I said, because they barred him from playing. Uh I won't go into all that detail, but Darby said to me, uh, well, he's your problem now. You've you've accepted the captain's job. So I went and collared Sevy, and we had a long breakfast where he vented and and I said to you know, Sevy, you you don't have to tell me, I said, do a shower. I know and they were. They were uh and uh I said, but I've accepted this captain's job and I can't do it without you. I said it's that simple. I need you on my side to and uh you know we were good pals. He said, Okay, I I help you. I help you. And and uh you know, he was unbelievable. One once I had him on board, I went I I made a beeline for Palm Beach Gardens and got all uh you know, we s got the room sorted and the team room and talked to Jack and told him my ideas, what what we wanted to achieve. I said I was gonna bring gifts for his players and I wanted I didn't want to wrong foot him. You know, he we and we you know we basically changed the thing moving forward and uh anyway we lost by a point.

Mike Gonzalez 30:06

Yeah, it was a heck of a match.

Tony Jacklin 30:08

It was, and uh Lani hit that final wedge shot in to beat Canazares, but and it was actually Savvy, we were we were a pretty uh miserable looking lot on the dais at the prize giving, and uh you know, we were disappointed. It was uh we were gutted and that we went so close, and it was actually Savvy who said, Hey, this is you know this is not a loss. This is the first time we've ever done anything uh in America, you know, this is this is a victory for us. And and like you do as a player. I went back and I and I thought about the things, you know, that we'd changed, done to change it. Was there any more I could do? I thought, well, you know, everything seemed to go swimmingly well, you know, everybody embraced the the team room and and and all the rest of it. And uh we turned up at uh b uh b the belfry two years after the nucleus of the team was you know, we had eight or nine other players all the same. And uh we managed to get it done in in uh in front of the British crowd. That was a sort of historic. Bernard Langer was twenty-eight years old then, and he's and it had been twenty-eight years since Lindrick 57, and as a 13-year-old for me. But Sice team that week, eight-man team, uh beat beat America, and that was a uh sort of another watershed. And uh and then, you know, we we won your field, that was probably the highlight for me, you know, the first win on American soil. And uh you you can't know as a captain what a sort of roller coaster of emotion uh goes on. You you only know as a player, you know, that your contribution can only be your your point or loss of point or your half. But as a captain, you're you're living every shot for every player. And uh so it's an emotional roller coaster altogether. And uh winning at Millfield was was was it. And uh and then we tied again uh under Raymond led the team in '89. We and it was just time for me to to to go. You know, I'd not uh we'd won home and away and and to see where this thing's gone. I mean it's it's it is remarkable. And I mean, it was the the the likes of you, Bruce, and Gary, that that you know, that successive rider cup that spawned the President's Cup and for the girls, uh the the Solheim and all of these events, you you know, you just see how much the public embraced team. You know, we've just had the finals of the European soccer team again. People there's something about team that that people are drawn towards. And I find it remarkable because this game that we've played all these damn years is is as much a solitary pursuit as anything I know.

Bruce Devlin 33:48

Absolutely.

Tony Jacklin 33:50

You know, and and to see how people come uh together for this uh opportunity to pull for a team is is nothing nothing less than remarkable. And uh it's it's ten years or more ago now since uh well I go to all the Ryder Cups, but So remind us of the name of the book again, Tony. My Rider Cup Journey. And it's coming out when And it's Pegasus of the publishers, and uh it'll be out well before the Ryder Cup.

Mike Gonzalez 34:25

Yeah, terrific. Terrific. So uh Terrific Let me just ask you a couple of questions as we as we wind this down because you've been very gracious with your time today. And and these are a couple of questions we've asked all of our guests, and we've gotten some very, very interesting answers. So we'll ask you the same. If, first of all, if you had one mulligan in your career, which shot would you want a second chance at?

Tony Jacklin 34:51

Uh my first putt on the 17th screen at Muirfield in 72. When Trevino chipped in, my reaction was, you son of a gun, you're not gonna, and I gave it a rush.

Bruce Devlin 35:05

Yeah.

Tony Jacklin 35:05

You know, I think I could have two-putted all day long, but I gave it and I got it that awkward distance, two and a half feet apart, and uh it was I didn't I didn't uh my patience ran out before his luck did, let's put it that way.

Mike Gonzalez 35:27

And the the next question, which perhaps we heard the answer to this question as you talked today, but if you knew when you turned professional what you know now, what would you have done differently?

Tony Jacklin 35:41

I lived in America when I won my two majors. That's the only diff the only thing I would have done was moved to America. Uh I've always loved America. You know, America is the reason I'm where I am today. I you know, I came over, it's where the best players were. It's where I needed to be, I wanted to be. And uh so uh that's that's basically the only grit I've got that uh I didn't move here uh all those years ago, but I was getting influence from people who I thought might know better.

Bruce Devlin 36:20

But uh Well, listen, Tony, we want to thank you so much for being so good today. You know you've given us a lot of time, and we thank you. And uh it's been our pleasure to have you on the podcast for the good of the game.

Mike Gonzalez 36:34

Thank you, Tony. Thank you for listening to another episode of For the Good of the Game. And please, wherever you listen to your podcast on Apple or Spotify, if you like what you hear, please subscribe to your face.