Do-It-Yourself Revolution with Charlotte Cooper, artist, psychotherapist and fat activist

Should you embrace your curves by smearing yourself in Dove products, or drink slimfast and chase the thin dream? Either way, the same giant corporation will benefit. Do what you need to do, but listen to this podcast too! Oriana talks with the artist, psychotherapist and fat activist Charlotte Cooper, who is an outlier in every field in which she takes part. They discuss what it takes to keep doing your thing and valuing it and yourself along the way, despite reactions ranging from indifference to intolerance and hate. Cooper, who considers her psychotherapy practice to be revolutionary, advises that compassion is necessary to the creative process. 

Dr Oriana Fox is a London-based, New York-born artist with a PhD in self-disclosure. She puts her expertise to work as the host of the talk show performance piece The O Show .

Charlotte Cooper is an artist, writer, psychotherapist and activist. It seems like there’s nothing she doesn’t do; she dances, makes music, produces zines and genealogies. She has collaborated with an enviable list of artists and most prominently with her girlfriend Kay Hyatt. The two perform as Homosexual Death Drive, a genre-defying band with irreverent lyrics and eye-popping music videos. Cooper's decades-long work on fat, like her performance practice, defies categorisation. A new edition of her book Fat Activism: A Radical Social Movement, will be available in June 2021. 

Credits:

• Hosted, edited and produced by Oriana Fox
• Post-production mixing by Stacey Harvey
• Themesong written and performed by Paulette Humanbeing
• Special thanks to Katie Beeson, Janak Patel, Sven Olivier Van Damme and the Foxes and Hayeses. 

Would you like to see your name in the above credits list? In a couple of short steps you can make that happen by supporting this podcast via Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/orianafox

Visit www.theoshow.live for regular updates or follow us on Instagram.

Transcript

[Theme music]

Oriana Fox: Hello, I'm Oriana Fox. Thank you for tuning in to Multiple Os, the spin-off podcast for my talk show The O Show. The O Show is a live performance piece that mines the conventions of daytime TV talk shows for all that they’re worth. It features artists and other experts who have little to no difficulty ’spilling the beans’ about their lives and opinions especially when they define norms and conventions. So if you’re interested in candid confessions non-conformity creativity and mental health you come to the right place!

[Theme music]

OF: Hello, I’m your host Oriana. The last couple of episodes we’ve managed to keep it squeaky clean in terms of language, but I’m afraid to say that run of good behaviour has come to an end. This week’s episode does contain profanities, so if you’re listening at work or in front of small children you might want to consider putting on some headphones. Without further ado, let’s listen to the interview.

OF 

So here I go. I’m thrilled to be speaking today with the artist, psychotherapist, para academic and fat activist Charlotte Cooper. In many ways, she’s an outlier in every field in which she takes part. As a fat activist. She is cream of the crop, top notch, a real leader. Unlike many psychotherapists, she recognises that her work in that field is revolutionary. And unlike many academics, she prioritises accessibility without compromising the complexity of her theories. As an artist she’s defiant in the face of mainstream art world values. That is, her artwork entails serious political critique through playful DIY means. It seems like there’s nothing she doesn’t do. She dances, makes music, produces zines and genealogies. She’s collaborated with an enviable list of artists and most prominently with her girlfriend Kay Hyatt. The two perform as the band Homosexual Death Drive, a... I’m not sure what adjective to use to describe it? Like, what genre?

Charlotte Cooper 

I don’t know really. It’s a thing! [Laughs]

OF 

…. a genre-less band with irreverent lyrics and eye-popping music videos. Another random and tantalising fact from her bio that I want to add to this introduction is that her dad was a spy for Her Majesty’s Secret Service, MI6. Perhaps that’s part of the reason why she’s so savvy about the power- knowledge-subjection nexus, or maybe it’s just that she’s fat and queer?

CC 

I feel close to tears, I feel truly seen. You’ve done your fucking homework, haven’t you? Amazing. Wow, that’s, I mean, I started off feeling a bit kind of shy and blushy about it, but now I just feel floored. Thank you.

OF 

That’s always a good response. Well, you know, it’s really thanks to you, because you put it all out there. You know?

CC

I do. And I sometimes I have qualms about that. And I wonder if, oh, god, you know, I’m, I’m exposing too much, I’m oversharing. But I guess I’m really interested in archives in a sort of a nerdy special interest type way. And I think, when, when you’re a freak , I do identify as a freak, and when you’re a freak, you want to meet other freaks, and you want to know that other freaks exist. And I think part of that sharing and putting out in the world thing is about making paper trails or digital paper trails that people can use and, and find others like them. And, and I think a lot of my work, you know, people, sometimes people pressured me to sort of speak to a mainstream and I just, I can’t do that, it’s not my way. So I feel like I’m trying to reach others. If not like me, then certainly other outliers or other weirdos. Yeah, that feels like a life’s work. And I feel like I’m leaving little dots of evidence around for that. And hopefully that will also happen after I’ve died as well. All my stuff is gonna go to Bishopsgate Institute, which is a fantastic archive here in London. So yeah, it’s about kind of making, you know, yeah, making some sort of trail that people can find that people can share to make networks. I think it’s something like that.

OF 

Yeah, I think that that really speaks to some of the concerns that I engage with on The O Show with which is to do with shame attacking and, and also to kind of return to this question that I want to ask you about therapy being revolutionary. And it’s the idea that one exposes something about oneself that others might find shameful. And I do that in my work because I’m hoping that’s going to, or I have this ridiculous maybe narcissistic view that like someone will will hear that and identify and feel like oh, I’m not the only one and I’m so I’m doing a service to these, you know, people who are like, oh, I’m not the only one. But at the same time my therapist pointed out to me that that’s, you know, that’s just, you’re really doing it for yourself to make yourself feel okay about, or it’s part of that the therapeutic aspect of, of shame attacking, which is that you then become comfortable with something that you previously were uncomfortable with. Are you kind of yeah, you’ve pushed yourself.

CC

I think that’s so and whether it’s for yourself or for other people, I mean, perhaps it’s a mixture, you know, I’d start off making things for myself, but it turns out, well, a lot of the time, some of the time, if I’m lucky, that it resonates with other people, too. And whether it’s gonna, you know, last in the long term, I mean, I’m an age now, I just turned 52 in October, that I’m starting to, I’ve always been thinking about death, but death is closer. And I’m wondering about, you know, I’m not, I don’t have kids, you know. So I’m wondering what my legacy looks like, wondering what you know, self actualization looks like at this stage in my life, wondering what the years ahead might bring. And although I don’t think, you know, my work will endure, you know, everything turns to dust eventually. It would be nice for something to, to ripple out to reach other people. I mean, I know that has happened already, because I get emails about it. But you know, to make something that is meaningful, I mean, I think that’s what life is about.

OF

Yeah, just to go back to the question about the therapy practice being revolutionary. So how does that work? How does that work?

CC

Well, how does it work?

OF 

I mean, maybe related to what you’re saying, with like making meaning.

CC 

Yes, I can tell you a story about how I got into therapy. So when I was young, I experienced quite a lot of trauma. And there was no place for me to go with that. And I sought help. And I narrowly missed being channelled into a psychiatric system, like literally by the skin of my teeth, I avoided that. But what I did find helpful was I started to work as a volunteer with people who were survivors of the psychiatric system. So I started to get politics around mental health and survivor dumb, this would have been in the early 90s, I was also living this very kind of underclass existence at the time, as well and did do for about 10 years, before I managed to, well, to sort of get my life together a bit more, I suppose, by the time I was in my late 20s. So for this big chunk of time, I was starting to engage with people who had been through the system and had sort of had no place. And this was also at a time where psychiatric institutions in the UK were changing. So people were being turfed out of long term, quote, care, and found themselves high and dry, but also was starting to organise as well. So this would have been the roots of Mad Pride was was kind of starting there. And what I did was I met somebody who had a lot of a lot of mental illness, actually, and we decided there was no place for us, and we decided that we would be each other’s therapists. And, you know, we were both really poor and really, outside things. But we met weekly for a couple of years. And, and we take turns listening to each other, for an hour apiece with a tea break in the middle. And I think we’ve saved each other’s lives actually. So this, I mean, around that time, as well, I was taking evening classes, I went to the city lit, and an evening class, an introduction to counselling class, I really enjoyed it. And then other things to cover in life. And then in the mid 2000s, I, I injured my back. And I had a kind of well, what am I gonna do with my life kind of moment, I thought all I really enjoyed therapy. So I’m going to go back and do that. And I suppose By this time, when I think about therapy has been revolutionary, it’s it’s hard to talk about because therapy isn’t a monolithic entity. There are lots of different stratifications in the therapy world, a lot of them to do with class and race and privilege. And who gets what kind of service you know, upper middle class people get psychoanalysis, the rest of people if you’re lucky, you might get you know, an app, or you might get channelled through six sessions of IAPT, which for people not familiar with that in the UK, National Health Service provision for mental health is through this thing called Improving Access to Psychological Therapies. Or, you know, they might refer you to some kind of online bullocks-y mind training type situation. So, when I say therapy or think of therapy as being revolutionary, it’s, I need to be a bit careful about what sort of therapy I’m talking about. But my practice, I mean, I think therapy is very political. The kinds of people I work with are outsiders. You know, I work with a lot of sex workers. I work with neurodivergent people, with fat people, with queer and trans people and migrants, and these are people who are, who need a place to be, and to think and you know, often to heal, and to find themselves, and, and to feel right about being alive. And that’s the part I think of as being revolutionary. So I have these roots in these critical views of psychiatry, and which also have deeper roots in kind of radical thought, in the West. And also, I think of my practice as being something that is about enabling people to live, enabling people who are really, in a pickle, a big pickle, a big sort of psychological and sociological pickle, because because of structural forces, and oppression and all of that stuff, and making a space to come together and think, and be and find a way forward. And, yeah, I think that’s, that’s what’s revolutionary about about my practice, but therapy as a whole, I don’t think is a revolutionary practice. I think. It’s extremely conservative.

OF

Yeah. Because so often, it relies on quite normative views about what is a healthy emotion versus an unhealthy emotion. And, you know, obviously, pathologising different ways of being.

CC 

Yeah, that’s true. So, yeah, and I don’t really have much of a network of other people who practice in similar ways to me know, a few people, but not many. Yeah, so it’s quite isolated as a therapist a lot of the time.

OF 

So you touched upon, like, the issue of class, who gets what type of therapy? So I know, with your work, you have this really DIY aesthetic. And, yeah, there’s not a lot of resources going into it. So, but with therapy with therapy, I mean, you get, I assume you get I mean, patients are paying you a certain fee. How do you see people who maybe don’t normally get seen like, how does that? Yeah, how do you find your patients? And do you see people who, yeah, can’t afford your services?

CC 

There’s a sweet spot. So when I started out, I did offer low cost spaces. But that didn’t work out for lots of reasons. So now everybody pays a flat fee. And I’m looking for ways to extend it to other people. But my practice is small, you know, it’s just me and a handful of clients. And that’s kind of on purpose, really, because I want to give people a proper relational experience. god, that sounds so dry, you know, I love the people, I love them, right? I love them. And so I want, I want people to be able to feel that, not to be spread thin. And there is a sweet spot. If people come and they’re really rich, which happens occasionally, there’s a kind of a coasting aspect to it. But if people if they need it, if they really need it, and if they, they find a way, they find a way to do it. And for me, you know, it’s my living. So I have to charge a fee. I don’t do it for free. And I have politics around that as well. I mean, a lot of the work of therapy is feminine emotional labour. And I think that should be paid for. So yeah. And they’re paying for my expertise, and for my life, and to live in my heart for the rest of my life, which, you know, I remember every single person I work with, I’ll never ever forget them. They’re unforgettable. So in a way, the fee, I don’t know, it’s kind of cheap for what they get, I think, but there is a sweet spot of being not something that’s completely out of reach, but also not something that they kind of take for granted as well. So yeah, it’s quite tricky. It’s quite tricky. And by the time people come and see me, they’ve usually been through a kind of, you know, the IAPT sort of set up, and so it’s a Cognitive Behavioural Therapy approach mostly. And you get a set number, a small number of sessions with with somebody. So people I see have have some experience of therapy, usually, I get some newbies. Yeah, so there’s a kind of a hunger. They want to know more. But yeah, cost is an issue and if people can’t afford it, you know, there are other places where they can go, and I do my absolute best to ensure that, you know, people get the support. Having said that, getting support is hard. You know, it’s not easy. There’s a there’s more need than there are resources to ameliorate that need.

OF

Yeah, there seems to be like a dearth of, of care. And that’s why we need, I mean, if everyone had a friend they could do that arrangement with that would be ideal. Yeah, because it would remove that, that issue of, you know, one person being unknown, which is often the case and in therapeutic dynamic. How are you with that? Do you disclose? Or do you not disclose in the role of therapist?

CC 

It depends. I mean, if it’s, as well, you know, the classic line is, if it’s useful to disclose, you disclose, but it really depends. I mean, therapy is a funny conversation, where the other person does most of the talking. And then sometimes I’ll chip in so yeah, some, sometimes I say something, and it might hit the spot. And sometimes I say something, and I feel humiliated because I’ve just revealed something and it has gone nowhere. So well, yeah, it depends. I mean, I don’t know, I feel like I hold myself to an impossible standard. And I think in the therapy world, there is an idea of an ideal therapist and ideal interventions. And, you know, doing it perfectly, always hitting the mark. And honestly, I cock it up every day of my life at work. And that’s part of the work as well to kind of, to come to terms with those perpetual humiliations that I experience in client work. And no doubt people I’m working with feel humiliated in talking. I mean, it’s, it’s an encounter of humiliation, a lot of the time I think therapy, and part of it, it’s about coming to terms with that and accepting it and just, you know, incorporating that into the work, you know, living with it anyway.

OF

Yeah, that’s, that’s really interesting. Like, everything you saying, you’re saying so far, and so many things have kind of touched on this, this issue that I’m, I’m really trying to work through for myself about, like, how does one value what one does? And how do you avoid using the criteria that are made by others to judge your performances or your self? And you seem to be able to challenge you know, in so many ways, in so many different facets of your life to challenge those kind of those norms and constrictions.

CC 

Yeah.

OF

How do you do it?

CC

I’ll tell you why. And I can tell you how. So, okay. Let’s have a think. You know, I come from a weird family. And I really screwed up family as well. And something that happened to me in the mid….now how old was I? 15 I think? So I lived in in Wembley for a bit. So we’ve moved all over the place. I lived in Wembley as I was coming into my teens, which was great because it meant that I could go out into London and go and explore things and look at stuff and be in the world. And I started going to gigs. And I went to see Nico play in I think, in like ‘94, something like that. And I met this woman there called Linda and her boyfriend John. And Linda worked at a charity shop in Wembley and said, Oh, why don’t you come and work for me? I said, Yeah, okay, because I had nothing else going on. So I became the Saturday girl at this shop in Wembley. And it turned out that Linda and John had been well, and still we’re like, well, how to say, old school, London punks. And John had been in a quite famous band. And Linda had been a scenester for quite a long time and had been involved in the hippie scene in London as well. And so had this amazing trajectory of amazing network of people who would all come to the shop, who would all try on clothes, who would all hang out smoke cigarettes, drink tea, chew the fat. And so for me at 15, I got this education in ‘outsiderdom’, that was really second to none. You know, I had my family who were weirdos in one kind of way. But I also had this other sort of setup that I was part of a really young age. And so through Linda, I met people like Jayne County and I met Leee Black Childers, so people who were also involved in these amazing pop cultural moments in the States. So Leee managed Iggy Pop and David Bowie for a period. He is a photographer. And Jayne of course is this incredible punk trans icon and I worked for her as a Go Go dancer briefly. And so I had, you know, just this amazing series of hyper vivid encounters with people who had already carved paths of weirdness, freakdom and difference for themselves. And my friend Linda, who unfortunately died, died last year. So I’m quite heavily in grief for Linda at the moment. You know, her and John, they just hated straight people, they felt no affinity with straight people at all. And so they created this world around them, which was all about everything that the straight world valued, we hated. And, yeah, god, what a great thing to experience as a teenager, it was right on the money. And also around that time I was getting into feminism. I was starting to have kind of like queer experiences, but I didn’t really have language for that until I was in my 20s. Yeah, so it was completely thrilling. So I have this background, I have this amazing foundation and education of doing your own thing, like deeply, deeply doing your own thing. And, yeah, that’s I think that served me very well. I mean, not to say that I’m, what’s the word on this kind of like monolith around that, you know, infected by other people by other things, too. And, you know, it’s a continual negotiation with, well, if I want to make art, how do I do that? I’m currently writing quite a lot. And you know, where’s that gonna go? The publishing world is a nightmare, actually. So, you know, do I want to negotiate that? Do I want to do it myself? A lot of the things are about not being able to find a place in the world for myself. So So doing it anyway, and yeah, not seeking permission, having some kind of conviction that what I have is, is valuable. And if it’s not valuable to other people, then it always is valuable to me. But it’s hard. I’ve got to say it’s hard. It’s not an easy thing to do to make stuff to believe in it. Yeah, to share that with other people. If it was easy, more people would do it. But it’s really, really, really hard. So I’m not surprised you struggle.

OF 

That sounded like such a therapists thing to say.

CC 

But it’s true, though, isn’t it? Why not have some bit of compassion around it? It’s like knocking your head against the wall every day isn’t it?

OF

Yeah. Yeah, like, I judge myself harshly on the basis of, you know, capitalist values, you know.

Like, I don’t, I put money into my work as opposed to getting paid for it. And I, you know, the audience sometimes is, is paltry, and you know, there’s, my videos only have so many views, or whatever it is, like, I only have so many likes, or whatever it is you you judge yourself on, but you seem to, you don’t seem to judge yourself at all in terms of those those values, those kinds of...

CC 

Well I’m glad that comes across, I mean, I do judge myself according to those values, but I try not to get too beaten down by it. And if, and if it comes up, I don’t know, every now and again, I stop and think what’s really important to me about the work and try and keep that in mind. And usually what’s important to the work is, is doing the work, the process of it, or the pleasure of it, or you know, the curiosity about the you know, what the work is exploring. That’s yeah, that’s usually at the heart of things. And the rest... Its good if it makes money, but I have no illusions about being a working artist, or at least if I did pursue that, that would be horrible. I have been paid as a writer, before I’ve made my living as a writer. And, you know, that was okay, but it’s still you know, the writing, I would do writing for money, but the writing that was most important to me was the writing that I didn’t do for money. So, you know, ideas of success, what? I do keep asking myself, what would make a project successful? Each project might have its own parameters for success. Some might be about making cash, some might be about having to tell some having to tell a story. Yeah, to be a bit open minded about what success looks like and what that what the measure of success is for something. That’s not always, you know, lights and razzle dazzle and cha-ching cha-ching cha-ching. And when that happens, that’s nice. But sometimes those things aren’t the most rewarding, either, you know, something else might be better. It really depends… Maybe you just got to do your work and the work is the work. I know that sounds like empty, a bit trite, but I don’t know. I keep coming back to sort of giving yourself permission to do what you do. That’s what it is, isn’t it? Nobody else is doing it. I sound like, maybe I’ll do sound like Oprah or Ellen DeGeneres or somebody. You just have to do it.

OF 

I know, it does. I’ve put you in this position of like being a therapist for me.

CC 

I’m not your therapist, I’m your interviewee. I’m very glad to be here as well. But I don’t know. It’s, the reflection that we’re doing together, it’s about well, why do we do it? And what’s it for? And how do we enable, how do we allow ourselves to do it? What holds us back? You know, there’s a lot holding us back. But we do it anyway. Isn’t that fantastic?

OF 

That is fantastic. Well, this is the thing though, I’ve heard you speak about, you know, class being part of the reason why feeling you don’t belong or couldn’t belong within academia. And it’s like, and what you just spoke about, about, you know, being around people who just despised, despised everything about being, about the straight world, and it’s like, here I am, you know, basically a straight person, and I’m quite middle class and well educated and yet I still feel, you know, like, I, I still feel very, very uneasy with this, with all those things. And, and especially within academia, and I think academia is just like rife with imposter syndrome, people. But I’m just like, Can you answer why? Like, I don’t have any of these reasons to not feel a part of it. And yet, I still don’t feel a part of it. Just like, I don’t know if you can help me.

CC 

Think about that. Just because you have those things doesn’t mean you’re part of that world. And maybe there are other parts of you as well, that that exists that create a sense of disconnect. I don’t know. I have difficulty with essentialism. You know that the idea that because you are one thing that’s that’s what you are.

OF 

And yeah, I mean, absolutely.

CC 

You can’t judge a book from its cover. It’s like, you are those things, but you’re more than those things aren’t you?

OF

Yeah, it’s not you know, I don’t necessarily think that one’s sex acts or whatever, like this sex acts that one engages with necessarily corresponds to a to an identity position. And yeah...

CC 

Well my my friends Linda and John are straight, but they’re the queerest people I know in a lot of ways too. So it’s I don’t know. I don’t know, I think that idea of so what you’re saying I am these things, so why do I still feel alienated from it? Maybe the situation is alienating. And even if you have these things, you’d have these, you know, pockets of privilege, perhaps the set up is still alienating for everybody.

OF

Maybe it’s just like, related to ableism or something, because this artist I know Anna Colwill described to meableism as an internalised perfectionism. And I, and even though I consider myself able bodied and able minded, and, you know, privileged in all those ways, I you know, that drive to perfectionism that’s sort of perpetuated within academia, within capitalism, it’s I guess, it’s maybe you know, it’s troubling for everyone, or it’s difficult to live up to those standards, because they’re so exacting, and yeah...

CC

Yes, yes. And I think the closer you are to success, the more troubling success is. If you’ve never had a shot of it in your life, then well, screw success, it doesn’t matter. But yeah, if you if you’re closer to it, if you know, people who are successful, well, that can do your brain in I think. And, and for me, I don’t know, I don’t know about ableism, but certainly one of the beliefs that I’ve internalised deeply is I’m wrong. I’m a wrong person. And you know, and that can really knock me back. But also it can be a source of amazing strength and beauty as well. And maybe there’s that kind of rough and smooth in how you see yourself too?

OF 

Yeah, I mean, you hardly know me. So...[laughs]

CC 

I recognise, you know, the sort of success and perfectionism and maybe there are there are strengths and, and drawbacks to that, to that to that self image too, and that the internalisation of ableism or oppression, the way that you feel that. What I’m trying to say is there might be choices in how you wield it.

OF 

Yeah, but I think what you’re saying is so true. Like the closer you get to success, the worse that is because I’m like, I just was listening to Ruby Wax talking to what’s his face, Louis Theroux and it was just so, I found it so depressing. This conversation...

CC 27:56 

Gruesome twosome! My god, what are you doing listening to them? What have they got to say that would help anything. [laughs] Listen to somebody else.

OF 

[laughs] Fair enough. It was like so irritating, here is this person who is so successful and so bitter, you know, about, you know, Louis Theroux doing what she did after her. And yeah, I don’t know, just, you can get to be, you know, a New York Times bestselling author, and you may have made these amazing documentaries, you know, on TV and still feel like, yeah...

CC

Yeah, that’s yeah, I mean, for me, it’s a bit like, you know, I’m so fat. I’m so fat, I’m never going to be thin. But I know people who are a bit fat, and they chase the dream, they chase it like crazy. And, yeah, there’s something about being far away from a norm that is, I don’t know, kind of nice really.

OF 

That reminds me of like that, like Alain de Botton ‘status anxiety’ thing, like back in the day, we all just did what our father did and now everyone thinks they can achieve, you know, their dream and therefore we’re all chasing it even though it’s completely, it may in some cases be you know, what, like Lauren Berlant says, you know...

CC 

Fat people die? That’s what she says, the cunt. Fuck her!

OF 

What is it called? She doesn’t just say that. Cruel optimism.

CC

Yeah, yeah. Whatever. I’m doing a tosser gesture to that.

OF 

On that topic of like, people you despise. You know, I noticed in the Fat Activist Vernacular book zine, that, Germaine Greer’s entry Yeah. And I just wondered like, you know, Nina Power is in the list of people who were going to be in this podcast, but you didn’t object to being in the same platform. Some people have. And I just wondered like...

CC 

Well, I’m quite ignorant, I don’t really know anything about Nina Power. But I do know stuff about Germaine Greer and well, I love her work on the menopause, my god that has saved my bacon. But you know, she’s a transphobe and she’s a fat phobe. And she should know better at this point. Nina Power and platform sharing? Well, we’re not in a room together. Thank god. 

OF 

So well I mean, also, I guess with a traditional chat show, you’d want to put people in a room together who would get into...

CC 

And if you’d said that I’d just have said no, because I think that kind of debate is completely pointless and just about generating rather useless heat. So.

OF 

I guess I just worried that like, people will listen to your podcast and not listen to Nina. And you know, some people listen to Nina and not listen to you. I don’t know what, I don’t know how, I don’t know if anyone is really like that. But that was another concern that was raised. Like, some people will just listen to the one I’m in and not listen to that one. And I was like, that just seemed a bit. I don’t know made me feel like my podcast was pointless.

CC 

Give yourself a break, interview who you want to interview. Do your thing and see what happens. This is about making stuff taking a risk. 

OF 

Again, this is like being with my mom.

CC 

Do your thing, make your podcast.

OF 

Thank you for your permission.

CC 

You don’t need my permission, you probably have it already. Anyway, glad to be here. And it’s lovely. Your questions are great. You know, I feel seen. And you know, I’ve done a lot of media in my life and a lot of it has been really crap and this is something else.

OF 

Oh, that’s very kind of you to say and encouraging. So thank you. Um, so I have loads of questions. loads more questions. Oh, yeah. One is about terminology. Now, of course, I felt uncomfortable describing you as fat less uncomfortable about describing you as queer. Maybe because of the academisation of that term. But yeah, I just wondered if you could talk about, I know, I feel like you’ve said, I don’t identify as a lesbian. I do identify as queer. And then you also differentiate and places between dyke and lesbian. I’m just like, what do all these? I’ve read your description of queer as being an umbrella term.

CC 

Yeah, I think of queer as an umbrella term, which is generally what I am. Dyke is more specific to do with a kind of feminine thing. And I’m saying women but I’m doing air quotes around that because I’m a trans inclusive, nonbinary inclusive person, feminist. But dyke has a kind of edge to it. Does it always have class connotations? I don’t know. Well, for me, it does. For me, it comes from a kind of punk sensibility. There’s a project at the moment called rebel dykes. And these were the women who kind of socialised and fucked me when I first came out on the scene in London in the mid 90s. So that’s also why I call myself a dyke. Yeah, just like it’s out of favour now. Lesbian for me, always feels quite exclusive, because I’m not that exclusive in terms of my sexuality, although, to be honest, you know, I’ve been in relationships now for so long. The idea of dating or you know, encounters with other people seem quite remote to me. But my sexuality, yeah, I’d call myself a dyke. Primarily queer, generally. Probably not a lesbian, probably not bisexual. I don’t know, those terms… Kind of, I can’t sort of, they just don’t feel right in my mouth. That’s all it is. I can’t really sort of put my finger on it more than that. And fat yeah, I call myself fat. There’s lots of politics around the language of fatness. When I started first having a public life around fat, again, this sort of been since the early 90s. You know, people prefered to use the word big or large. Then sort of later on, I guess in the sort of mid 2000s, you know became plus size, curvy. To me, these are quite euphemistic terms and in the way that queer is a reclaimed term, I think it’s important to reclaim fat as well. So that’s why I use it. And yet this make people uncomfortable. Ha ha. Oh, well, too bad. You know, that’s the reality of my life. Obese, that’s another one isn’t it? That’s that has been massively magnified by obesity epidemic rhetoric. It’s a term, well, I would only use that if I was trying to deconstruct it in some sort of way. I mean, it’s generally taken as quite an offensive term these days. 

OF 

Yeah, and fat is, as you’ve articulated in many places, fat is a political issue because it’s… I wanted to read a quote, actually... I probably won’t be able to find it. It’s to do with being blamed for you know, the cost of health care or you know the deficit, you know, as if, as if it’s an individual’s problem, as opposed to a collective. You know, you can see it in the, it’s in Boris Johnson’s, you know, sudden turn to, you know, to fighting the ‘war on obesity’ instead of like looking at his own policies and the ways in which they compromised people’s health in response to COVID pandemic, it’s like, look a little deeper Boris.

CC 

Yes, yes. Since he said, there’s a lot of scapegoating going on around.

OF 

Do you think he’s even aware that that’s what he’s doing? Are you think it’s a conscious strategy or just like, self delusion?

CC 

Babes, I have no idea what is going on in the mind of Boris Johnson. I can’t even begin to go there. Would he be a dream client? I’m not sure. I sometimes I think about dream clients and you know, devil clients. And he, yeah, what would he be? He’d be somebody I’d like to, you know, to work on. But he’d be a nightmare with me. So yeah, kind of. Yeah. I don’t know what goes on in his mind. What does he think? What does he know? Impossible to know. These pig fuckers truly. No idea. 

OF 

So yeah, I think it’s interesting. Your your take on kind of body positivity and the definition of ambivalence...

[ding sound]

OF

Just to add some clarification here, for those not aware of Charlotte’s views on ‘Body Positivity’, she defines it in The Fat Activist Vernacular zine as “A highly visible part of fat activism and body liberation more generally. […] An attempt to transform people’s self-hatred into something more positive through self-acceptance. Sometimes successful, sometimes not because hate runs pretty deep. A difficult thing to stomach if perkiness gets on your nerves.”

[ding sound]

CC 

... I feel ambivalent about that take now these days as well, because there’s been this shift where people are saying, Well, you know, body positivity, that’s really bad. And fat activism, that’s really good. And I really resent that kind of snobbery around things. And I’ve seen it because I’ve been around for so long now. I’ve seen it emerge in other ways. So you know, back in the day, it would have been done, you don’t see it so much now BBW, big, beautiful women. And it was basically describing a scene where, like a chubby chasing scene with thin guys and fat women. And, you know, amongst the I don’t know, I’m not trying to say more more political, I mean, it’s all political, but amongst people who had different kinds of politics that was seen as a real no, no, and people tried to distance themselves from that. Yet the fetish scene around fat has been a you know, a gateway drug for lots of really amazing fat activists. And I just think it’s, it’s crappy really to to be snobby around what gets people off, or what works for people. And if body positive, you know, Instagram accounts are what help you, what enable you to live in the world, then well, good luck to you. It’s not necessarily what helps me to live in the world. But there’s room for everybody, as far as I can see. So, yeah, I do feel some ambivalence about the way that the critique of body positive stuff has been taken up. Having said that, I think it is right to critique the role of corporations in perpetuating that discourse or appropriating it. And I think there’s certainly stuff to say about it. But also, I think, if this is your, if this is your lifeline, well, I want you to stay alive. And you should use that lifeline. That’s yeah, I think there’s, I don’t know, I’m not into the meanness. And the snobbery around, about what’s authentic and good. It’s a bit of a waste of time, really. It’s a bit divide and conquer.

OF

Yeah, I know what you mean, and I, but I think also your point, what is it about, is it Unilever that sell stuff through body positivity? 

CC 

God. Yeah. Crazy, isn’t it? I mean, it’s so contradictory.

OF

Yeah. But that I guess maybe that’s another reason why it’s so hard to no matter how you identify, to live with these norms, because we’re kind of being told these opposing messages constantly. And if you then add in, you know, kind of feminist discourse and values into the mix, it then becomes like a complete, yeah a complete confusion of like...

CC 

Yes.

OF 

Am I, should I, should I give into, you know, which, yeah, which ones? Which ones should I should I take as my own? And or which ones? Or should I just, yeah, like, how does one, yeah, I would say practice freedom in the midst of this? How does one divorce one’s goals and values from those, you know, those endpoints that are kind of, you know, hanging like a carrot dangling in front of you?

CC 

Yes, def, I mean, it’s really hard. But I think what a lot of people do is they take it all on, and it becomes this kind of ‘double think’ type thing. So, you know, you smear yourself in Dove and you also chug the slimfast. And there’s no contradiction in that. You know, I think it’s a very I don’t know, is it postmodern? I’m not sure. But it’s, it’s a very contemporary way of being that you can, you can have it all.

OF 

So how do you add the feminist, like queer feminism on top of that? You smear yourself and you take the slimfast and then?

CC

Then what? Well, you might be, you might find yourself in a bit of a bind. Yeah. Why not? Maybe. Yeah, maybe. Do it all! None of it matters.

OF 

Yeah, so I think a lot about, you know, before and after, and like challenging that paradigm. And like, I think, I want to write a self help book that kind of undermines all those things, but I feel trapped by it. And it’s like, you need to have instead of a before and after, obviously, some kind of continuum. It’s like, yeah, I put on the dove and then this happened. And then I drank the slimfast and that happened, and then I went to the protest march and that happened. There wasn’t, you know...

CC 

Perhaps the idea of consistency or progress narratives, or consensus, maybe they’re beautiful dreams. But maybe they’re not that realistic. I don’t know.

OF 

Yeah, definitely. Okay, so the other aspects of that question about terminology. I’m wondering how you relate to like feminine and masculine norms like butch, femme, you know, like, where do you see yourself?

CC 

Well, I identify as a femme but a really crappy, shitty, couldn’t care less type femme. I’m wearing a dress today. I don’t know. I don’t do my nails.

OF 

You have long hair.

CC 

I haven’t done makeup for a long time. I have long hair, ish. Yeah.

OF

And your partner?

CC 

But my desire is fully butch, is really, is butch. Although, you know, I have more than one partner and my other partner is not very butch at all. So yeah, I don’t know, I don’t know what I am. I mean, I really don’t know, you know, I try and label, I can give sort of general terms. But the specifics, I really have a problem with and I have a kind of I don’t know what the term is, but a kind of inability to, to really see myself a lot of the time, which is a drawback, because I blunder, but also, it’s a strength really, because it means I’m not so self conscious around things too. And just kind of, yeah, don’t don’t fret about about labels about what I am. I kind of have a general sense of being different. But the specifics of it, but I don’t really get that, that wound up about it. Fat is important to me, but also, you know, I have periods of burnout around that. Not that we can ever escape it. But...

OF

And, you know, once I was in a, at the Women of the World festival at the South Bank, and I believe that Kay was in a group with me doing a workshop about women in comedy.

CC

Oh, ok. 

OF

We did this exercise, where we told something to a stranger, and then the stranger then presented that as if it was their truth. And Kay got up with someone. And the woman was like, I was a child beauty queen. So it was, was it Kay?

CC 

It was Kay. Kay was a child beauty queen. Yeah. Now, I can’t remember it was some some maybe a washing powder or something, anyway, of yesteryear, so a brand that was completely dead now. And she was like, maybe the baby of the year or something like that. She’s got a folder at home. with pictures and her mum and dad, they they took mom and dad from Birmingham, took mum and dad out to the top of the town, which is this ritzy place in London? And yeah, Kay was, yeah, was not quite a child star. But you know, a baby and infant star she was a celebrated child, yeah.

OF 

I mean, it was funny, and everyone laughed. And but it is clearly like, you know, a self deprecating form of humour. Isn’t it? So? I know that you’ve said you don’t want your your work in dance, for instance, to be taken as like, ‘inspiration porn’ and also like to be laughed at because, you know, that’s clearly the stereotypical response to fat people dancing. And yeah, to laugh at this joke about Kay being a beauty queen. You know, it just, it’s problematic humour, I would say.

CC 

Yes. Key is one of the funniest people I’ve ever met. But yeah, her being the baby of the year is some, it’s pretty unbelievable. But yeah, I don’t know, what is it? You can’t always control people. You can’t control people’s responses. So I prefer people not to laugh at me if I’m trying to do something intense and serious. But maybe sometimes they do. And then what, how to work with that? How to incorporate that, or own it, or not be not be crushed by it, that’s also part of the work, I think.

OF

But also are there strategies you employ to prevent that kind of reaction or to subvert that reaction?

CC 

I don’t know. I don’t know if I do. I was part of this really amazing group last November and December, it was part of the LADA [Live Art Development Agency] DIY, sort of peer training thing. And we had a fat performance group we met for six weeks, and some of the people in that group of very accomplished performers and talked about how, the care that they offer when they think about their audience journeys. And I thought, god, I’m really not like that at all. You know, I don’t really offer the audience. In fact, the audience is there for me to attack a lot of the time, I don’t really offer them much care. Yeah, so I don’t know if I have any strategies around, you know, tending to how audiences might might respond. I mean, in a way, I think that that way madness lies, because you just can’t predict how people are going to, well, I can’t predict how people are going to respond. Yeah, hopefully, they’ll get it. But I can’t really, really count on that. And maybe they’ll get it five years later, when they’re in Sainsbury’s. They’ll kind of go, oh, that’s what that was about. Maybe they won’t, you know, that’s the kind of maybe, that’s the risk. That’s a risk of performing. Performance is I think a very risky endeavour. And the risk is, you’re really going to fall on your ass, and people won’t enjoy that falling on your ass. They’ll take something that you didn’t intend from that fall. Yeah, I think that’s maybe that’s what makes it great, the risk part.

OF

Absolutely. I agree completely, that that is so key. And that’s why I feature so many performance artists on The O Show and on the podcast. Yeah. There’s something about it being you know, one’s actual, you know, one’s person in front of an audience. You know, there’s, I mean, other artists, though talk about writing being equally risky, like laying bare one’s politics and views can be just as risky. I think that’s probably true. What, so with you and taking risks like that, are there things that you definitely draw the line at? 

CC 

Yes, there are things I draw the line at. So, there are stories I would love to tell about people who are alive and I can’t tell those stories because...

OF 

But you will when they’re dead?

CC 

Yeah. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Because they have to live with my stories, too. 

OF

Right. 

CC

And if they’re dead, they don’t have to live with them. So that is, that’s a line I draw. Also, I know that it sounds like wank, but I try and put good energy out in the world. I don’t even believe in energy. I don’t even know why I’m saying this. But I try and be some and I don’t even believe in good or bad. You know, these things concept I don’t really believe in, but I try and be an agent for yeah, god, gag, good energy, being a good person, you know, I try and do that. And my version of that might not be many people’s versions of that. But, but I try and maybe act with integrity, or sense of ethics or not screwing people over, or, not punching down. That’s important.

OF 

That’s really interesting that it’s all about other people that ethics as opposed to something within yourself that is just too raw or whatever.

CC 

I’ll write the story, but I won’t publish it. Do know what I mean? So I might write the thing that I need to write about the person who’s alive, but no one’s gonna see that until after I’m dead. So.

OF 

Does that worry you though? I know you’re a big diary keeper.

CC 

Yeah, I’ve got boxes and boxes of diaries and that’s where all goes.

OF 

Do you worry though like about after after you die people reading it? 

CC 

Well I don’t really believe... No, no, I don’t worry. Other people can read it and good luck to them and...

OF 

I have I kept a lot of diaries too, but I still feel I feel like should I get rid of those before I die. Like do I want my children to read them? Like I think...

CC 

Don’t get rid of them. This is so key, you need to archive, archive those fuckers, they’re totally important.

OF 

I haven’t got rid of them. I’m definitely like, I keep things and I look back, I like to look back on them myself. But I do feel slightly uncomfortable about my children reading them, but they probably won’t. They probably won’t even be interested. 

CC 

That’s the killer, isn’t it?

OF 

My dad writes and he’s always giving me things to read and I do try to be the dutiful daughter and read them and stuff, but it does take me a long time.

CC 

Maybe it won’t be your kids that read it. Maybe it will be I don’t know, some other random person in your world will?

OF 

Yeah, that’s good. That’s what I’ll imagine from now on, some fan. [Laughs] But, and I’ve heard you speak about it as like keeping those archives as a way of kind of reminding yourself that you have value.

CC 

Yeah, I think that’s true. I mean, you’re not in my room here. But I’m looking up and I have one, two, three, three shelves of things I’ve made. Like, I don’t know big this room is, maybe, I don’t know how the length of five metres long. And yeah, boxes of stuff, really. And when I look up and look at it, and this is also the room where when we’re not in a pandemic that I work with people. You know, it’s about sort of seeing my life. 

OF 

So it’s disclosing, that answers my question earlier.

CC 

That’s it. Yeah, so the space discloses a lot about me. Yeah, and I do that on purpose, you know. I’m a member of the British Association of Counselling and Psychotherapy, and they have a whole series of advice leaflets for therapists on their website, I think, behind the sort of membership paywall, and one of them is how should you decorate a therapist room. Honestly, I’m obsessed with this leaflet. And they suggest that you decorate your therapists room in pale blues and greens and with no personal artefacts in the room. And often I mean, you may have been in many therapists rooms, I certainly have, you know, there’ll be a picture of some pebbles on the wall. It’s always the bloody pebble picture, they always have a still stack of pebbles. You know, it’s so anodyne, and I’ve also been in therapy rooms that are like, like prison cells, you know, there’s absolutely nothing. There’s no windows, there’s nothing, there’s two horrible stained chairs. And that’s it, there’s nothing else. And I think, god, these are not rooms for healing, or talking or growth or life or imagination. You know, these are dead spaces, basically, that have been described. So I try and make a room that has stuff in it that, you know, is meaningful to me. And if people I’m working with want to talk about it all, we could talk about it. Yeah, the space shows that I’m a person. I think, god, it’s as basic as that. And I think that evidence of my work, because I’m looking at it, it shows I’m a person, I’m a real proper living person, and I’ve made things and I can’t be erased. That’s, that’s great. Because also…

OF

I’ve been, I’ve been reading this book about imposter syndrome, and one of the... Although I’m in deep denial of being, of having Imposter syndrome, but realising as I read it, that I do have it. But it says to put, you know, put up your degrees and you know, or make a folder or environment that kind of celebrates your achievements recognises it and stuff. So it’s kind of like speaking to that.

CC 

I think that’s totally important. In fact, I have, you know, this, this little shelf above my computer, it’s got all the books I’ve written on it got a box of things that I’ve made, you know, in the books I’ve written kind of morphed into books that I like that other people have written. Yeah, I think a lot of it is about seeing myself as part of a part of a continuum of people as well, not feeling, you know, I am an extraordinary person, but, you know, feeling that I’m one amongst many, many extraordinary people, that I’m part of, yeah, part of a genealogy, of a network that I’m not entirely by myself. And often I find that in the archive as well. So when I was researching my PhD, it was hugely meaningful to me to go, I had the means because I was funded. I had the means to travel around the world a bit and to go to archives and repositories of fat activism, which are very rare, and find work in there. That, yeah, reminded me again, that I wasn’t alone, that I was part of something that I was building on something, that people had built stuff before me. Yeah, that was really beautiful, powerful and you know, it stays with me actually, that sense of, of love and legacy, community.

OF 

Did you hear my stomach growl just then? I think my mic probably picked up on it, it was really loud. This has been so wonderful, I think. I feel like almost all my questions have been answered, actually, in such useful ways. Okay, yeah, so you you’ve done things that Wellcome [Collection] and that have been part of their sort of like late night programming. And I feel like a lot of artists, live artists who kind of make work about identity tend to be featured in these kind of late nights, you know, late at Tate or whatever. And it’s like it’s a foot in the door, but not the same as institutional, not quite the same thing as institutional recognition. 

CC 

I think people do it because they pay good money, because Wellcome is absolutely loaded. And you can negotiate a really good fee from them is the main thing in a field where people are chronically underpaid and undervalued. So that might be why people, one of one of the reasons why I work with Wellcome. As for, you know, legitimacy of the institution, well, this is something that I wrestle with all the time working with institutions have, generally find very difficult. That thing with the Wellcome, they were very supportive, because my last book had just been published, and they wanted to do an event around that. But I also managed to negotiate with them this dance piece that Kay and I did in the obesity gallery, which is a space, for me, a really oppressive space. So that was kind of like, added on in rather a cheeky and sneaky way. But they were amenable to that, and they did listen, you know, I was impressed by how they did listen to our critique of that space. And it’s completely changed. I mean, they were planning a redisplay anyway. But I think the critique of that gallery was helpful to them. And it was, it was great to be heard around that. But yeah, there’s kind of like night stuff. I mean, we are creatures of the night. Maybe that’s why we they get us in after hours, you know, I’m not particularly family friendly, you know, so we’ve got to do it after the watersheds, so we can use bad language and say rude things and talk about sex or, you know, be a bad influence. Maybe that’s why, or maybe people have to be drunk to witness stuff, like the stuff that I do.

OF 

And it relates to, you know, what you’ve said about fat activism, being concerned with assimilation, or rather like not wanting to assimilate, not wanting queerness and nonconformity to be erased. So in a way, you don’t want to be invited to become a staff member, or do you and help them to remake that?

CC

They did ask me to do it. But I didn’t do it. Yeah, and I can’t remember why. I think I was just busy. I mean, I had some regret about it later, because I thought, oh, it would have been good to have some sort of input in that space, but and plus, you know, I didn’t even know who I was talking to. I didn’t really have a relationship with people there. The people that had done the late night thing were different to the people that were asking me to be involved. I couldn’t really get a measure of them. I said no, I said no to that. But having said that, there are other institutions that I do. I think LADA [Live Art Development Agency] is a fantastic place. Yeah, so I’m not entirely opposed to it, but I think sometimes the cost is too high and I’m not willing to go there and I’d rather, I want to be the owner of my own work that’s the bottom line for me.

OF 

I understand and respect that completely, but at the same time wouldn’t more people access your work if you were to have that role at Wellcome, I mean?

CC 

Yeah, but more people can mean more fucking shit as well, Oriana. Huge amounts of shit. I get hate mail, you know? 

OF

Really?

CC 

Yeah, so more exposure to people to that, is more exposing me to that. And there’s a balance really that I can cope with. It’s tricky. I mean, you know, it’s kind of like life’s sadness, really that I that I don’t have a massive platform. Also social media, I’m not very good at it. 

OF: 

I hate that too. 

CC

Yeah, I don’t have a common touch. So I’m sad that I don’t have a massive platform, but also relieved as well, because I think I’d be eaten up by it, I think it would just destroy me. So that’s, again, this is sort of sweet spot of being able to do what I do to reach the people that I care about. And I want to know, and not to worry too much about that, to not put myself in the path of people who could really hurt me as well. There’s a kind of here, maybe this is about the balancing risk. 

OF

That makes that makes perfect sense. Yeah, just I was going to bring up the fact that a lot of, another reason why other people don’t find therapy to be revolutionary is related, or I link it back to this, you know, not therapy defence from the second wave feminist movement with consciousness raising. There was, you know, a lot of discussion about what was the, you know, true political for the optimal political forum for consciousness raising. And that’s, you know, political change, collective change was the goal and personal catharsis or transformation was the was the ‘gravy’ or something. And, yeah, there was this defensiveness around this is not just about therapy and that if it were to be that that would make it apolitical. But of course, that counters the whole premise of, you know, feminism, that ‘the personal is the political’.

CC 

Exactly. That’s it, isn’t it? And I’m glad some people, you know, took it upon themselves to say, what’s what for everybody else, and how everybody else should live. Good for them. You know, well, maybe people do in different ways. And maybe all can be held, that there can be this collective, you know, the collective and personal are not mutually exclusive. It can all all be part of the mix. But yeah, every now and again, somebody will launch a critique on therapy. And I’m, I’m curious about what they mean by therapy, because as I said earlier, that therapy can mean all kinds of things, and all sorts of conversations and ways through and ways that you know, recovery or healing, or, you know, it can be a philosophical discussion, it could be anything, really. So, yeah, when people are angry about therapy, I’m wondering what that’s about. Maybe they had a bad experience.

OF 

Yeah, or, people don’t like to be told what they are or labelled with diagnoses. 

CC 

Well, I certainly don’t. So, yeah, why would anybody else?

OF 

So I think, yeah, it really depends on or also just that thing about, you know, being asked, being told that we need to work on yourself, as opposed to the solution somehow residing in self transformation, as opposed to political transformation? 

CC 

Well, you know, I’ve got a PhD in sociology, and I’m also a therapist, and, to me, those things that get together really well, because I’m able to understand and think a lot more about structural reasons why people might be in the situation they are, and I’ll be able to share that with them in ways that are meaningful. And also think about the kind of micro stuff that’s going on to about life experience and stories, narratives that have happened. So yeah, I think they’re not separate; they’re not binary, that they go together. In fact, I wish more therapists had a, took a sociological view of things because it’s super helpful when you’re thinking about what people are struggling with.

OF 

Yeah, I mean, I often think, oh, you know, when am I gonna finally given and retrain as a therapist, like because I feel like that would be a really good day job for me. I think.

CC 

You seem really into it. What’s holding you back?

OF

Yeah. No, I think I probably will one day, I just don’t know when that day will be, you know. But that seems like a good note to end it on, although I’m reticent because I know I’m gonna think about this afterwards, as one always does and think, why didn’t I ask that question!? I guess that’s just always how it is. But one thing I didn’t ask was, Well, I mean, I know the I feel like I know the answer to why you’re called Homosexual Death Drive, it’s part of that whole negative discourse, like turning something negative and into something you’re embracing, isn’t it?

CC 

It’s from, okay, so it’s from Freud, which I didn’t know when I named it.

OF

Really? 

CC

No, because I haven’t read, I haven’t read much Freud. No, I’m not that interested. Well, kind of interested. I’m interested in watching a biopic of Freud, but I’m not necessarily interested in reading, you know, the full canonical works. I’m interested in what Freud means as a cultural figure in, in the world of therapy. Totally interested in that. But I haven’t read much Freud. And I didn’t know it came from Freud. What I knew was it came from this rather, let’s say, dick-swinging, sort of tranche of queer theory, which was hot in 2010, when I started Homosexual Death Drive with Kay. And somebody I knew was really into that and told me about it. And I thought that sounded like a really good name. Really provocative name, because about death and homosexuals and using the word homosexual rather than queer, and drive. had this kind of energy to it that I liked. And initially, we were trying to kind of explore death drive theory in the work. But um, yeah, the project is changing now, Kay is doing it less because she’s got other stuff to get on with. I’m doing it a bit more because I’m thinking more about what I am as a performer. So yeah, whether it keeps keeps to that initial theory, I’m not sure. And you know, as time has gone on, I feel a bit more critical about those dick-swinging academics who always get cited. Yeah, find them rather boring. You know, and that’s also to do with my relationship to the academy now. So yeah, I have qualms about the name and what it represents, but I also really like it. Oh, also occasionally I’ll get an email through the website from somebody who wants to kill homosexuals too and thinks I’m part of some.

OF

Oh no. 

CC

Yeah. [Laughs] I love that they pick the right thing from the drop down menu on the contact form, you know, to contact me with their, with their genocidal intention. So, um, yeah, so that happens. I mean…

OF 

That’s awful.

CC

Yeah, it is but I also sort of enjoy it as well, at least, you know, I’d rather they came to me with their their genocidal intention than, you know, spread it out in the world and actually did it elsewhere, because then I can either delete their email or respond to them and say, you know, maybe this is a bad idea. Yeah, so that happens. But yeah, that’s where, that’s where the initial impetus came from it. I quite, I find artist names hard to remember and so I much prefer artists who have, you know, a name that they work under, like, of course, I can’t think of anything at the moment, but a bit like having a band. So Homosexual Death Drive fits with that. But yeah, so I’ve got questions about it at the moment, but that’s the origin story of it anyway.

OF

That’s so interesting, I totally thought it was just like you know reclaiming and embracing, especially with the, it’s called the theme song “first we fuck you then we kill you”. It’s just, and “I never wanted to have children”…

CC

Yeah, so that was just, explores the themes of death drive theory but whether it continues that way, I don’t know. I wrote that ten years ago.

OF 

Well, thank you so much for speaking with me today. Yeah, it’s been really illuminating and surprising and helpful.

CC

I really appreciate your deep engagement in my work. I mean its stunning, absolutely stunning to me that people, because you know I sit here in my room and I do my stuff. And I know people engage with it, but to this level? This is what gives me life, it’s lovely.

OF

Great.

CC

Suck it up! [Laughs]

OF [Laughs]

[ding sound]

OF

That concludes my discussion with Charlotte Cooper who is a fascinating and supportive, wonderful human being. I’m sure you all agree. And if you want to know more about her work you can visit her website charlottecooper.net. Do check it out folks!

[Next week on Multiple Os song]

OF

Next week on Multiple Os I’ll be speaking with the Berin-based, American-born artist and unconventional woman Indrani Ashe, we will be discussing her project 50 Dates of Grey which documented her quite conventional quest to find love via dating apps. So click subscribe now to be notified as soon as the interview comes out. Until then, be sure to accept yourself and others unconditionally. We’re all just fallible human beings. 

[Theme song]