EP 149 Ensuring a Safe Childbirth: Expert Legal Insights with Gina Mundy

Conversations around birth injury, trauma, and loss are no doubt challenging. But they're also so very important. 

In this episode, I'm joined by birth injury lawyer and author of A Parent's Guide to Safer Childbirth, Gina Mundy. 

She shares candidly how she's experienced how mistakes in the birth setting impact lives forever. And she's proactively working to educate parents about how they can keep themselves and their families safe. 

In this episode, we're sharing: 

• The risk factors that contribute to the cases Gina represents, including the cascade of interventions caused by Pitocin inductions. 
• How parents can advocate for themselves in the birth room. 
• What steps can be taken to ensure a safe childbirth experience including the importance of assembling your team of providers. 

Though this topic may be triggering, our objective here is not to scare you but rather to bring attention to the rise in birth injury and loss and how providers and parents can make a difference in outcomes. 

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Chapters

• 0:02 Addressing Postpartum Care and Birth Complications
• 5:54 The Importance of Safe Childbirth Experience
• 16:28 Importance of Learning and Advocacy in Childbirth

Transcript

Read the transcript of this episode:

Depression, anxiety, and autoimmune symptoms after birth is not how it's supposed to be. There is a much better way, and I'm here to show you how to do just that. Hey, my friend, I'm Maranda Bower, a mother to four kids and a biology student turned scientist obsessed with changing the world through postpartum care. Join us as we talk to mothers and the providers who serve them and getting evidence-based information that actually supports the mind, body, and soul in the years after birth.

Hello everyone, welcome to the Postpartum University podcast, and I have an incredible guest here. Actually, she showed up in my inbox and I was checking out her information, her book, all of the things, and I was like, oh my gosh, I have to have her on the podcast.

I rearranged my entire schedule so that she could be here. This is Gina Mundy.

She is an attorney that specializes in childbirth cases and for over two decades now, she has analyzed the mistakes that are being made during labor and delivery and she has authored a book called A Parents' Guide to a Safer Childbirth, which is really about helping parents prevent these mistakes and have a healthy baby healthy birth.

And, rather than merely getting involved with the unfortunate mistakes that are being made, Gina has taken a proactive approach to getting involved before the childbirth begins, and I am just thrilled to have you here, Gina. Welcome to the show.

Gina Mundy: 1:39

Oh, Maranda, thank you for having me. I'm so excited for today's conversation. 

Maranda Bower: 1:44

How did you get into this field? I want to hear this story.

Gina Mundy: 1:47

You know what I wish I had an exciting story for you. It's literally my first job out of law school. So what do I do?

Nobody really understands this profession unless you know somebody in it and they definitely don't teach you about this in law school, high school, or college.

I mean, I've wanted to be an attorney since third grade and I've never heard of an attorney specializing in childbirth until I got my first job.

So basically, as I'll tell your audience what a childbirth case is, basically these are cases, lawsuits, and they involve the birth of a baby, when something goes wrong, whether it's a mistake, it's a complication, but the baby is not born healthy.

And I fit cases where babies, you know, have passed during childbirth and then some very sad cases where moms have passed during childbirth.

So then, as the attorney on the case, I come in and I'm like, okay, what happened? What went wrong? More importantly, you know what really should have been done so a healthy baby, you know, could have been born,

I always throw that little background in because some people are childbirth cases.

So I got my first job, February 2003, where I got my first baby case, and that's where I realized I'm like, wait a minute, things go wrong during childbirth.

Not only that, I was hired into a team of people there were over 20 of us and all we did like was work on these cases involving the birth of a baby.

And, remember, attorneys are involved, so there's some type of loss. So you know it's very sad.

So I had just gotten married, it was, you know, having a baby was on my radar and I was just almost like just shocked, brand new information.

You know, and even to this day, even after writing a book, you know, people are still like what exactly do you do?

You know, most people don't even understand that my profession exists.

So, you know, when I was hired in with you know, 20 other attorneys, I'm just like okay, this, this is a problem.

So, anyway, I just got my first case, became obsessed, and just, you know, I just was like, oh, my goodness, and that's really it.

Maranda Bower: 4:06

It was more like stumbling on the job after, right, after law school and just never look back. This is incredible.

And my objective here and having you on the show and I know this is yours as well you mentioned this before but it's not to scare anyone, right?

We need to bring awareness to a problem, however that exists, and I know as I was a doula for many years. I have four children.

I was a doula before Postpartum University came.

I had witnessed some really horrific things and we call it secondary trauma, and I don't know a doula or a childbirth provider or a nurse that does not have some form of secondary trauma because of what they have witnessed in the hospital setting.

Of course, there are other settings too, but majority I would say 95% of them are taking place in that hospital setting.

I'm talking about witnessing the screaming of your baby's gonna die if you don't hand them over, and, of course, baby's not. They're fine.

It's just a control to mom being strapped down on the bed and doctors jumping on top of her, the yelling, the screaming, the awfulness that has happened.

And again, I'm not trying to scare anybody, especially if you're pregnant, but to understand that these things do exist and they're happening and we're not talking about it.

I would love to hear your opinion about what you're seeing because you've been doing this for so long what is happening and why are these things happening?

Gina Mundy: 5:54

So I have a chapter in my book which I wanna put this out there real quick.

I did have six pregnant beta readers go through my book before it was published and my main question is is this too scary for you while you're pregnant or expecting a baby?

And they were all different ages and whatnot and different backgrounds and all of them said no, this book is not scary. They felt very prepared.

They've all gone on now to have healthy babies. They were very grateful for the book, so I was very careful to make it more of a make sure this doesn't happen to you, more preventative than scary. This is what you need to know to have a safe childbirth.

So basically, in this book, I do have chapter 11 and this is such an important chapter that you're not gonna find in any other pregnancy book.

A couple of podcasts now have asked me why is this information just surfacing about childbirth?

But it is the 10 most common facts and issues in a legal baby case, cause what I have found is that there are reoccurring issues.

But number one, the most common fact and issue in a legal baby case, the ones I see and I've seen since February 2003 is the drug Pitocin.

Pitocin is in the majority of baby cases, so it's very important that, if Pitocin is part of your childbirth, your decision during childbirth there are certain things you need to know.

So then I authored a chapter basically on how to have a safe Pitocin induction, based upon what I've seen gone, basically gone wrong, over the last 20-something years.

Pitocin is a drug that's used to induce mom's labor and make her uterus contract. So just in case, I'm gonna throw that out there.

But Pitocin is huge and it's like almost a cascade effect. So they start Pitocin and then it's very painful for mom and then it's the epidural and then maybe it's another intervention or maybe the Pitocin is affecting baby, so there's other interventions, but it's almost like this cascade effect and I feel like it's, you know, and especially in the baby cases, it typically ends then with you know, maybe like an operative vaginal delivery.

Now it's like, okay, babies in trouble will get a good baby out, you know, whatever reason, or you know a C-section, but I would say in my childbirth cases, that is your, it's a very common case, like in general.

Maranda Bower: 8:44

And I don't feel like that's really surprising or shocking in the least, but we know that induction rates are on the rise and they're going up and there's some significant risk factors that are associated with Pitocin and pitocin in particular, it's effects on postpartum and it's increase in postpartum depression.

If you've got, if you've had, pitocin in your labor and birth, you have a very high chance of getting a postpartum depression because of the pitocin.

It's very, very interesting and we're not talking about this often enough, which is really unfortunate, and I'm so glad that you're bringing this into the space and having this conversation, and I want to clarify too with you you mentioned you know, if you're getting involved, then there's some sort of loss.

What does that necessarily mean? How does one go? So basically, how you get your services.

Gina Mundy: 9:46

Yeah, so to have a childbirth case, that's like a lawsuit, I mean you have to have some type of loss.

Unfortunately, it's usually one of three things in these cases.

The baby has a permanent injury to their brain or they could even be like a shoulder, you know, stochial, where there are brachial plexus nerves affected, so that would be more of an injury type loss.

The baby's passing away during childbirth, so that's, you know that's fair, that's very difficult.

And then moms that typically pass away, you know, during childbirth, like those are the endings in my cases.

Maranda Bower: 10:26

So that's really significant. What about the cases I mean, could they exist? And I mean this is just like conversation here of like what happens when there's some significant trauma involved, or where a mom had to be strapped down, or that she was forced to do something that she was screaming no at, or like what happens in those scenarios. In those cases, they don't count, or something else happens? 

Gina Mundy: 10:57

So I've never had. So my cases again involve a loss. I've never had cases where it's just like an emotional, type impact, now not saying those don't exist, that's just not what I do. I do more of like a physical, you know, injury, loss of life.

But yeah, I mean that would be obviously very traumatic if a doctor was holding a patient down and then you know, it depends on that, obviously, the circumstances or whatever.

But yeah, there might be other attorneys who take those cases.

But then I'm just again, I know I've never had a case like that, but that doesn't mean they don't exist, it's just more of like I just that's not what I do, yeah, yeah.

Maranda Bower: 11:43

They definitely exist. It's called birth rape and we've talked about it before and it is a growing issue.

But it's just interesting to see like the different, the places and where you could go for support for things like that, and I want to shift the conversation because this has been really hard right, like we're some of these terms like birth rape is not an easy term to digest.

How can people have a safer childbirth experience?

Gina Mundy: 12:16

So preparing for childbirth is the number one thing that you can do and understanding that you know as a mom, you're the decision maker.

So it's really important to understand that when you're a delivery team, they're advising you or whatnot. They're making recommendations.

They're not supposed to tell you what you can and cannot do. That's not how it's supposed to work. So you have to know this going in and be like no, you can't start Pitocin. No, you can't do a C-section. No, you can't whatever.

You are the decision maker, the doctor should be just giving you recommendations, just even knowing that, and then holding your ground.

But also so chapter one of my book goes over the lessons that are learned from the baby cases and that, whether it's from the families, the delivery team, medical experts, whatever it is like, these are your lessons and I think going and you know, learning from something you know that's happened or gone wrong, I think is just huge.

Lesson one would be you're learning about labor and delivery.

Basically, chapter one are all the lessons from the baby cases and then each lesson is then a subsequent chapter.

Number one learning about labor and delivery.

Then the next chapter is chapter two and that gives the facts that I believe, or childbirth basics that I believe are important to know so you can make good decisions and whatnot.

Maranda Bower: 13:55

And some of those are like, that's really hard sometimes and I think I want to put that out there.

When you are in a place where you are very vulnerable and you are in the middle of childbirth, right, knowing these things of like, if your providers saying, hey, you need a cesarean, and where this is what we're going to do, or you're going to need Pitocin and this is what we're going to do, you're not, you're not progressing, you're not moving, whatever.

If you don't have that solid knowledge of like, what does that mean?

What are my alternatives, what situations do require medical intervention and all of those things, you're in a position that is so vulnerable where you're just willing to say yes to a lot of things, even when you feel like maybe, oh, now I would easily say no to that right, like just having this conversation, but the moment that you go in and you're in that space, so challenging sometimes.

So what you're saying is really preparing for that, knowing taking those childbirth education classes, I might add, that are not a part of the hospital setting, so that you can get a full idea and a full picture of what's going on and preparing and knowing who your team is and your support people.

So what do you think are some of the foundational pieces and I'm sure you talk about that in your book as well- oh, you're awesome, you were right on it.

Gina Mundy: 15:31

You know learning, because if you don't, it leaves you in a very vulnerable state of mind because the families, when they come in, are just you know.

They put it this way, they know a lot more in the aftermath of something going wrong and so the vulnerability part is just huge.

But then literally the next lesson is you have to understand your delivery team.

You have to understand that many times these are the people that are scheduled to work that day, and what if you don't like somebody and what if someone's rubbing you the wrong way?

Listen, in my cases the delivery team is responsible for bringing your baby safely, you know, into the world, and in these cases it's their care that is at issue and analyzed more than any other aspect of the case.

So your delivery team is beyond important.

I go through exactly who's on it and what you need to know.

But then next you have to have also, you know, a good provider.

You know doctors have different ways of handling things, different recommendations, so in my cases, something goes wrong.

Usually, the OBGYN is captain of the ship, so it's their care that you know is at issue.

I will hire two experts, two doctors of the same profession OBGYNs to review the care that mom received.

One doctor will tell me everything was done perfectly and the other doctor will tell me everything was done wrong.

Okay, one thing I've learned in childbirth doctors do not agree on things, so you must pick a good doctor.

So you know, that's one of the lessons. So then I have a whole chapter.

Listen, I've analyzed these doctors for over 20 years. So if it's a good doctor, good doctors, juries like good doctors.

So this whole doctor analysis that I've done different things. Again all in chapter four. 

There's just so many different, like little things that if you know, going in that will help you make those good decisions, because in these cases that I see, families are literally one decision or minutes from a healthy baby. So preparing and understanding childbirth helps you make those good decisions because you don't know what you don't know.

Maranda Bower: 17:57

Yeah, yeah, I, I wholly agree with that and, you know, I want to stress the importance too of understanding that there are more options for most people than a hospital setting, you know it's not for everybody right and obviously, there's some scenarios where a hospital setting is when you want to give birth if you're high risk.

However, there are so many different avenues that you can explore.

What are some things that providers and caretakers and advocates could do? How can we play a role in this?

Gina Mundy: 18:38

Do you mean like, even like as a doula, for instance?

Maranda Bower: 18:42

Sure, or an OB right, or somebody who's a partner to mom, or somebody who's an advocate for postpartum care or pregnancy or childbirth, a lactation consultant, for example, or a chiropractor.

What can we do? You're here because things are blowing up like we are seeing the rise of childbirth cases, we are seeing the rise of intervention and its effects are not pretty.

Gina Mundy: 19:16

So chapter 7, I go over having a baby advocate because, listen, mom is, you know, focusing on, you know, mentally, physically, delivering baby.

So you know, having the partner as a baby advocate, having a doula, is a great idea.

Doulas I don't know well, I do now, but doulas are not in my childbirth cases. So they are definitely helping, you know, families have a safer childbirth.

Because it almost hit me when I was right after I published the book.

I'm like you know everyone could ask me about doulas and I'm meeting these doulas. I'm like you guys are amazing.

And then like, wait a minute, they're not in my cases.

So I asked some fellow baby lawyers and then I'm like, do you guys have doulas? If you ever had a doula in your case?

And they're like no, no, we don't have doulas. So I know having a doula is a great idea, you know, to help you have a safer childbirth.

But also in the baby advocate section, listen, your partner is a great baby advocate. Grandmas, I love grandmas.

They're like you know, they've been there, done that and a lot of them are just on a mission to make sure, you know, they have healthy grandkids.

So they're great baby advocates.

I have a section on you know basically how to be a good you know baby advocate.

And again, even if you just want your family and friends there, you know extra childbirth, just give them a job, you can go to the end of that chapter, chapter seven, and tell you the five things literally that a good baby advocate you know I was in a hospital setting how you know how they could be a great advocate for you.

Again, because if you have some, if you can look at your partner and be like not a fan of my nurse and give him the nod you know he should be on it, he should know that he needs to go get a new nurse.

If he's read my book he's gonna know exactly how to do that.

But there's a comfort level then that you have some, you have somebody there that you can nod at, so it's less stress, your body can relax, it's gonna be easier to deliver baby.

So, yeah, no, having the baby advocate, that person to kind of watch over you.

And you have to remember, you know delivery teams get really busy because in a hospital setting babies come when they want to come so they can go from you know not that busy to almost overwhelmed, which means the delivery teams are not at your bedside.

They're running around like crazy trying to help all the patients.

So having that extra set of eyes on you and the baby is absolutely huge.

Maranda Bower: 22:01

Where can people find your book?

Gina Mundy: 22:03

Amazon is the best. If you just type in Gina Mundy, I have a website, ginamundy.com and my book is on there.

I also have a childbirth blog that you know I'm supplementing if I'm like, oh, that should have been included in the book, or I also, this book is solely childbirth. I'm doing a pregnancy book too.

I've actually the pregnancy book's pretty much written, but just trying to get it out is very difficult, being busy with, you know, getting you know this book out. 

I'm taking some of that pregnancy content and just getting it off on the childbirth blog, just so it's out there, you know, for people until the book can get out.

But I want to start doing whatever I can to make sure families have healthy babies. 

Maranda Bower: 23:06

I love that you're really helping and that preparation for childbirth and that preventative measure, which is so, so key.

So thank you so much for all of the work that you are doing and everything that you have shared with us here, and, of course, we're going to have all of those links within the show notes as well. Thank you, Gina. It's been a wonderful experience with you.

Gina Mundy: 23:27

Oh, thank you, Maranda, for having me. I appreciate it.

Maranda Bower: 23:32

After wrapping up this episode, I wanted to come back and talk about some of the conversations that we had here.

I feel like it's so important to recognize that the discussions around childbirth can be challenging and evoke some very powerful emotions, and Gina brought forth some valuable insights.

But we acknowledge that there are even more complexities and sensitivities to this topic, such as birth trauma and the emotional experiences that can profoundly impact mothers and support teams and individuals within.

As much as we want childbirth to be a serene and joyous experience, we also recognize that many individuals are faced with difficult traumatic experiences, and if you're that person, know that you are absolutely not alone.

In fact, approximately 30% of births in the United States alone are labeled as traumatic, where a mother views her birth as a traumatic experience, so I want to emphasize that there are resources and compassionate individuals who are ready and willing to support you through that, and support is absolutely necessary.

If you or someone you know has been affected by a difficult birth, I highly encourage you to reach out. There are people who understand, and I'd love to connect you and with those people, provide a listening ear, guidance, and reassurance to help you navigate that complexity, those emotions that can really arise and affect your whole well-being.

And also crucial to recognize that it's not only the birthing mother who may need support providers doulas, partners, and husbands, the entire support team can experience secondary trauma from witnessing or being a part of a challenging birth experience.

So, to all of those who are in this supporting role, we want you to know, too, that you also deserve care and support, so please don't hesitate to reach out.

There are networks, professionals, and organizations who are dedicated to providing assistance and understanding.

I know this conversation is challenging, but it's vital and we are here for you.

So remember your well-being matters and there are people ready to support you on your journey.

Thank you for joining us in this very important conversation. We'll chat soon.

I am so grateful you turned into the Postpartum University podcast. We hope you enjoyed this episode enough to leave us a quick review and, more importantly, I hope more than ever that you take what you've learned here, apply it to your own life, and consider joining us in the Postpartum University membership. It's a private space where mothers and providers learn the real truth and the real tools needed to heal in the years to come and the real tools needed to heal in the years Postpartum. You can learn more at www.postpartumu. That's the letter U.com. We'll see you next week.