Azdean Elmoustaquim (00:04.178)
Welcome to the Destination Morocco podcast, the show that takes you away to the beautiful country of Morocco. I am your host, Azdean Elmoustaquim. In each episode, we explore Moroccan culture, history, attractions and activities. Real and practical information coming from experienced travelers and native Moroccans like myself. And now... let's go exploring.
Azdean Elmoustaquim (00:37.078)
Welcome back to another amazing episode of Destination Morocco podcast. In today's episode and for the next few series, we're going to have a topic which is the Amazigh Chronicles. And in this episode, we're going to discuss the history of the Amazigh people and their roots and then the ancient Amazigh civilization and their contribution to history. And for us to get really, really close to everything and accomplish what we want for this episode. We have Hiba.
today joining us from Marrakesh, the same as Sam, Hiba, welcome to the podcast, Sam, welcome back to the podcast. So we're all Amazigh, many people call us different things, meaning the same thing, Amazigh, Berber, Schleuh, many things. A lot of people don't know where the Amazigh people hail from, where do they come from. Even when we went to school, there's different beliefs where they come from. So in today's episode,
Hiba, if you can explain to us in the audience, what is the origins and early history of the Amazigh people in Morocco and North Africa? Please. Absolutely. First of all, thank you so much, Mr. Azdean, for having me on your show. Absolutely. So fortunate to be here with you and to share as much information about the Amazigh, the Berbers, our origins, our roots. So I'm extremely excited. I'm happy to dive into the topic.
And first of all, the Berbers or the Amazigh are native inhabitants of a large portion in North Africa called the Tamazga. Basically, it extends from the Atlantic Ocean into Western Egypt in a particular point called the Wasis of Siwa, passing throughout the Atlas Mountains into the Sahara Desert. According to historians, the Berbers consider to be the indigenous.
population of North Africa. They have lived there for thousands and thousands of years. They practiced their own cultural practices and spoke their unique language. They have a rich and diverse history and different language. In fact, the MSL's history was not merely history, but also it was a scenery, a lifetime scenery that embodies their resilience, their struggle, their fight, protecting their dignity.
Azdean Elmoustaquim (03:02.266)
and identity promoting their language despite the hardest periods of occupation. Yeah, they are origins of North Africa which called Tamazgaland. Tamazgaland is all the countries in North Africa and unlike what the books say, especially when we talk about Moroccan history, they told us that's originally from Yemen which is a country in the
Azdean Elmoustaquim (03:32.566)
They are the indigenous people of North Africa and they are here for thousands and thousands of years. The Amazigh people are the originals of North Africa. When we talk about North Africa, we talk about nowadays Algeria, Morocco, Libya, Mauritania, Tunisia, Chad, Mali, Niger, with a small part of Egypt which is called Siwa. Okay, that's very interesting the way that you said that because that's totally different. I did not know that. So.
Now, the Yemeseh people and the culture, it's really, really rich. And I know through our history, they have been through periods with the Islamic expansion, the Romans. Can you describe the political structure for us, Hiba, of the Yemeseh people during these historical periods? First, we want to talk about the Cartagians and then the Roman period, if you can. Then we'll move to Sam and see what he has to say as well. The Berbers have faced many different
Mediterranean powers, starting by the Carthaginian and Roman periods. During that specific period, the Berbers, in fact, were organized into city tribes and city states and tribal confederations. And later on, they started to form great kingdoms, especially after the defeat of the Carthaginian by the Romans. And at that time, the Berbers received a large portion of the coast.
of the Atlantic Ocean by the Romans so that they tried to form the kingdom of Numidia and Mauritania. Okay, just can you explain a little bit more about that and also just to give the audience an idea, can you explain it in today's geographic, you know, or country or location? Yeah, so the Amazigh started to form great kingdoms encompassing the kingdom of Numidia.
which contained a large portion of Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, and some of Morocco, then the Kingdom of Mauritania, which has a large part from Morocco. Later on, the Berbers engaged in trade and agriculture and contributed to the urban-meditarian cultural milieu, as well as they were influenced by the Roman culture, religion, and...
Azdean Elmoustaquim (05:58.922)
their practices. Okay, that's very interesting. I did not know that as well. So I'm learning as the audience is as well. So Sam, can you give us a little bit of European in a little bit of history when it comes to the Cartagena and the woman period in North Africa, especially in Morocco on the Amazon culture and the Amazon land at that time? Yeah, sure. Just to add to what he just said.
kingdom of Tamazgha or the Berber kingdom at that time, which is divided in two, which is the Mauritania, Cartagena and the Numidia, Numidia kingdom, which is, as she said, a part of, we can say the big part of Morocco, which is right now the Northeast of Morocco, then to Algeria, then to Tunisia and Libya and so on. Then the Mauritania. So when the Romans came, when they make the invasion,
to North Africa they started from the kingdom of Mauritania, which is to the coastal part of Morocco, especially the Atlantic coast of Morocco, and then they started all the invasion. So they started first, they converted, they tried to convert the Amazigh people, they converted most of them. Into which religion? In Christian. Okay. Christian religion, yes, because as you know, the Amazigh people, they don't have like a god.
They believe in sun, they believe in moon, they believe in what is called? Hirels. Yes, that's right. Absolutely. Then when they come to Berbers, the Amazigh people, they fight for their own religion, own land community, because they were very strong. This is why the word Berber comes from. So when the Romans comes to North Africa, they found those people, they speak another language different than the Romans and different than Greek languages, which is Tamazigh.
or Amazigh language, this is why they call them Berber or Barbar, which is unknown to the people. They speak different languages than the European, than the original language spoken at the time in what's called right now Europe. Yeah. Okay. That's a great point. So, Hiba Sama, I really, really appreciate your insight. It's really, really important. So now we just talked about, you know, this period, the Cartagena Romans, now we're going to move to the...
Azdean Elmoustaquim (08:20.282)
Islamic expansion resistant what type of impact the Arab Islamic expansion in the 7th century have on North Africa? Well throughout the Islamic expansion especially after the Prophet Muhammad's death his followers tried to expand the Islam in many regions especially in North Africa so the Amazigh or the Berbers were facing a new faith a new religion
It wasn't easy to convert it. It took like 62 years. Oh wow. Yep, 62 years. They were instances of revolution, especially the Berber revolt from 739 into 741 against the Umayyad Khalifat, as well as the comeback of Queen Dihiya, a Amazigh leader who governed North Africa for 35 years.
She was known by her bravery, resistance, and she fight the Roman Empire. But despite her bravery, she was defeated by the Romans. And at the end, Islam become a dominant religion and culture practice in the societies of the Amazigh. Okay. Wow. That's very interesting. Very interesting questions about the Islamic expansion in North Africa.
I said the Amazigh didn't believe in a religion before, so it was very hard for them to accept a new religion. People didn't accept it and they make again an invasion and they killed many people, many Amazigh people because they didn't want to convert to the new religion Islam. Because just for a fact, we are not Muslims as origins, so we converted to Islam. Some of them.
they converted because they want to convert it and some of them they converted because they were obliged to be converted into this new religion. So they didn't have a choice basically. Yes. They were forced. They didn't have a choice. Yeah. Forced to convert. Uh, so coming back to the caliphate, the Omayad caliphate or the Omayad dynasty started from what's called right now, Libya, then to Algeria, which is the
Azdean Elmoustaquim (10:40.674)
the kingdom of Numidia as Heba mentioned, which is the kingdom of the queen, Dhiya, or as they called her Kahina, Kahina in Arabic, which means witch, because she was very brave as Heba mentioned. And people, they thought that she is using magic and she is a witch. This is why she is brave. And she won many battles as the historian or the history books said.
So that period was not easy for the Berbers because it was a big change in terms of their community, in terms of their beliefs, in terms of what they do in their daily life. Education, language as well. Because it's a big change and it took a long time for them to accept this new religion to their society. Oh wow. So when we talk about these periods and when we talk
the Amazigh people have gone through. Can you tell us specifically how did the El Mura expand their influence across North Africa all the way to Spain? And I know there's a little bit of connection, but if you can give us a little bit of history, we'll start with you Sam, then we'll go to Hiba. Okay, just for information about the modern history of Morocco, because many people, they say that this is the country of 12 centuries or something like that, 12 centuries of history, which is incorrect.
We can't count from the Idrisi dynasty to the 20th century to talk about the Berbers or the Amazigh people in North Africa, because you will hear in the media when you visit Morocco, you will hear like the local guides and the people here, they say that's the Morocco is a 12th century country or some stuff like that. It's not correct. This is why we are here to give you some information about our history as, as Amazigh people. You're on your own, Sam. Okay.
Just to explain, Al-Moravid dynasty is the second dynasty in Morocco after the Idrisid, which started in Marrakesh. It was a big dynasty which expanded to the whole Morocco and a small part of what's called right now Algeria and then to Spain. Then Al-Moravid comes later to finish and to expand to the whole what's called sub-Saharan countries.
Azdean Elmoustaquim (13:06.346)
which is right now called Mali, Niger, Chad, Senegal, Togo and stuff. Yeah. The medieval period witnessed the rise of the Amazigh superpowers, including the Al-Muravid dynasty, which originated in the Sahara. They expanded their influence from North Africa into Spain and succeeded by the Al-Mu'ahid dynasty, which also expanded its influence.
Yeah, Spain and Portugal right now. Yeah, Iberian, Venezuela. Then the important dynasty, which is the Marinese, which originated in Morocco. So it has a deep impact on the country's legacy. We talk about dynasties, the largest and the biggest dynasty in Morocco, which did a lot of achievement, especially when we talk about the modern history of Morocco is Al Moha dynasty.
And all those dynasties based on the religion except one, the Idrisid, which is Idris first, who comes from the Middle East, runs from the Caliphate, Umayyad Caliphate, because it was a war between the families. The brothers. Yeah. Yeah, the brothers. And then he came to Morocco and he started his dynasty, which is called the Idrisid or Al-Adharissa in Arabic, then followed by Al-Moravid. Then Al-Muhad.
then the Mereenid I want to talk about the Mereenid the Mereenid is 100% a dynasty which is not based on religion they are 100% Berbers Amazigh people and they started as tribes so when you say they are not based on religion what do you mean not based on religion versus based on religion? those dynasties they use religion as I mean of
mean of yeah like a constitution or something some stuff like that if you wouldn't say a constitution just to persuade people to follow them i see okay so can you tell us where this movement and where this dynasty really has started because i remember during our tour you and i talked so can you tell us where the exact location of the starting point yeah the edrusy dynasty started
Azdean Elmoustaquim (15:27.426)
They started in the southern part of Morocco, south-east, and they came to Marrakech. But they gathered the tribes in the south-east of Morocco, which is called right now the Ra'vali, and they came to Marrakech. Then the Al-Muhaddas also started in Marrakech in a small village which is called Aghmat, or Aghmat, the state of Aghmat. Then the Mernidians started in Meknes and Tfes. Then the Sa'adiyin started in Marrakech and Tfes as well.
and they took Kfes as their capital. Then the Alawit, the Alawit dynasty, which is a current monarchy in Morocco, started in Tefil-e-Alt, or what's called in the past, Siej-e-Masa, because the father, the history said he is coming from Middle East or Saudi Arabia, and he belongs to the grand-grandsons of the prophet. He started from Siej-e-Masa, and he moved his son, which is Moulay-Suma'il, moved to Meknes, and he took it as a capital.
and right now in the 20th century they changed the capital to Rabat. Okay, a lot of changes and a lot of history. Yeah. Wow, that's really impressive. So the Yamazigh people have been through quite a bit and I wanted to know a little bit more about their history when you said it did not start with the first dynasty which is Adarisa, Deidrisid. How long can you go back before that? So when you have somebody going to Morocco and the tour leader or the tour guide explain to them
Azdean Elmoustaquim (16:55.154)
century history, but it's actually a lot more than that. So can you dig deep a little bit into the Amazigh history before the Islamic period? Yeah, sure, this is a very good question. The Amazigh, it's a civilization dated back to thousands and thousands of years. We can talk about 30,000, 35,000 years ago. They were with the Farons, especially the King Shishinq. Shishinq, I will give you some information about Shishinq.
Why, for example, our calendar, our Amazigh calendar right now is 2977. Why? Because we started our calendar when the King Shishinq, one of the Amazigh leaders in North Africa, defeated the Pharaoh, the Pharaoh, the Pharaoh Ahnetun, something like that, Ahnet, Ahna, yeah, I don't remember the name of that
Azdean Elmoustaquim (17:52.482)
the Siwa was in Egypt and he brought it back to Tamazgaland. Yeah, so we talk about thousands and thousands of years ago. This is why, especially when you refer back to the archaeological researchers, you will find that the Berbers is more than 30,000, 35,000 years ago. Yes, that is true. This may confuse a lot of audience, but the Yemesir culture history, it goes deeper and deeper.
Back then, just like you mentioned, they were just idol worshippers, pagans. But then Islam came afterwards. In the first dynasty, it was brought from Saudi Arabia with a brother running from the royal family because his brother was going to kill him. And the only reason why he stopped in Morocco is because of the ocean. That's when the first dynasty was established. A lot of history and I hope it's not boring for the audience. I will try to make it a little bit fun.
So now we're going to jump back close to the 19th century, close to the European colonization and things like that. So what is the consequences of the division of the Yamazigh territories among the colonial powers? And how did that impact the traditional tribal and cultural affiliation? Because this is a major one because you know Hiba explained to us the Yamazigh people in North Africa. Some live in Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya and then some...
in Egypt and a lot of this I personally really did not know prior to this especially Egypt. So can you explain to us and to the audience the effect because I know especially when you look at Morocco and Algeria there's obviously there's a conflict not between the populations but the governments the people were good Algerian people are incredible people I have a lot of Algerian friends super nice I mean you cannot really tell the difference between us but the thing is when
there's a massive division. You know, when somebody colonizes a country, there's always a reason why they do certain things. And I think this has the most profound effect on us as an Amazigh people, Amazigh culture, and things like that. So if you can explain it to the audience, we'll start with Hiba first, then we'll jump in and see what Sam has to say, please. The European colonialism basically in the 19th century, especially the French and
Azdean Elmoustaquim (20:12.134)
Spanish powers sought to govern the portion of North Africa. And as a result, the Amazigh territories were divided, leading to the establishment of the artificial borders that affected heavily the tribal confederations and the Amazigh cultures, especially after the immersing of the cultural and language of the European powers that marginalized the Amazigh.
their language, their cultural practices, as well as their identity. So it was hard for the Berbers to, to promote and to protect their language and their identity. That's really, really interesting. Thank you so much for that. I definitely have something to say about this, but I definitely want to also hear what Sam has to say because when it comes to Berbers, we get, we really take it personal. So, and I am.
Azdean Elmoustaquim (21:13.478)
Yeah, as well. It hurts. It really hurts. But I definitely want to hear what Sam has to say first, please. Yes. Thank you very much for this question. As Dean, it's very interesting for people to know what's going on, especially in Morocco. In 1912 is the first sign of the contract of the colonization of France and Spain over Morocco. The North
Azdean Elmoustaquim (21:40.31)
The Europeans at the time, they had the power, they have weapons or stuff like that to invade those countries in North Africa. By the way, France, they have a convention between the European countries, which were at the time France, Spain, Portugal, Netherlands and Germany. So they divided North Africa into states and they just give each country a piece of cake.
French bakery. It's a French bakery yes. French croissant. French croissant. Okay. So Morocco was divided between Spain, who took the north, and France take the other parts, which is the middle mostly, Spain the north and the western Sahara. Moroccan western Sahara. At that time the countries were very weak due to the bad what is called, management of the leaders.
Especially when we talk about Morocco, we talk about the Alawi dynasty, which is what the time Moulay Youssef, he was a child. And at the time he can't manage the country and he can't like, he was not a leader. He was like a kid. And then the colonials take this chance to colonize the country. And when they come here, as Hiba mentioned, they changed many things, including the language, including the culture, including the society, the lifestyle.
of the locals who are the Berbers, the Amazigh people. The Amazigh people, they have a resistance, especially in the northern part of Morocco by the Rifyans and the rest of the country by the Shluh and Amazigh, Zayan and Ait Marghad, especially and Ait Attah in the southern part of Morocco. We'll go later to explain more about this.
Azdean Elmoustaquim (23:36.03)
divide and conquer, cut them into small pieces that way they can never get together and be together and be great. And that's what happened to us as a culture, the Amazigh people. We were very powerful. Our history dates back to the Pharaohs, just like you said Sam, but a lot of people don't know that. So I know that the French when they got to Morocco, it was very important for them to divide us. In a way they failed, but succeeded in different ways. They failed to divide us between
the yamaziyyagh, the Berbers, shlooh, whatever you want to call us, and the Arabs. Because the Arabs are part of Morocco as well. It's not just the Berbers. So they tried to divide between the Arabs and the Berbers, but they failed miserably and thank God they did. Because normally when you go to a country, even now you can see the same thing. They divide them into different sects and each sect will attack another sect and that's how things get started and start to get worse and worse. So for us, luckily, they did not.
Succeeded doing that which is incredible, but they succeeded in creating the conflict and forever conflict Especially when we talk about the borders just like Houdini which is the fake borders if you would the issue goes back to Algeria and things like that Morocco was pretty big but With the French they changed the borders and that's what we still have the issue of the Moroccan West Sahara It's Moroccan Sahara. It will always be Moroccan Sahara
Now, I don't want to get too political. We're just talking about the culture in the Amazigh. So I'm just going to stick to that subject for now. But also would like to move on to another topic, which is despite all the challenges, how did the Amazigh people continue to shape the cultural landscape of North Africa in the post-independent era after we got our independence? Well, in the 20th century, the Amazigh
have faced challenges in terms of reconciling the different and diverse ethnics inside their borders. So as they had the large portion in North Africa, they started to assert their linguistic and cultural rights, such as recognition their language, which is Temazigh, as well as establishing specific celebrations for them as the Nair celebration, which is the Amazigh New Year.
Azdean Elmoustaquim (25:59.178)
Yes. And I just want to talk about something about Berber Dahir or in Arabic it's called Dahir al-Barbari. 1912. It's created by French colonial to divide between the Arabs and the Berbers. It was with the help of some Moroccan leaders, unfortunately, which is the fact. And we are so very lucky that they didn't achieve what they wanted behind.
what's called the Berber Dahir or Dahir Barbar in Arabic, because else Morocco will live in a war between different tribes, especially when we talk about the Amazigh tribes, which is the Rifyan tribes and the Amazigh and the Shlough tribes with the Arabs. Versus, yeah. Yeah, but the Berbers and the Amazigh people, they are very smart and they didn't go through this conflict with the Arabs.
because at the end we are Muslims at the end of the story. We live in the same land, which is Morocco, and we live under the other with kingdom. Yes. Yeah. That's really, really important. Yes. So afterward, the French and Spain before they leave, they left behind a story that's the Arabs in Algeria. And as you mentioned before, they created the fake land, fake borders between the countries.
And at that time there is no Mauritania, which is called Mauritania right now. It was a Moroccan land and Algerian Sahara was a Moroccan land. Unfortunately, they just created this fake borders to tell people that Algeria take your land and Morocco take the Mauritanian land and they just keep this conflict running till nowadays. Yes. It's very political. I don't want to talk about that part. Yeah.
but we know what's up so we know what the French did but we're gonna move on to the next episode part 2 which is the Amazigh communities and their geographical distribution in North Africa so for the audience thank you for listening thank you for tuning in we really appreciate you and we're doing this because a lot of people the number one thing people ask for when they wanna come to Morocco is they wanna experience
Azdean Elmoustaquim (28:25.366)
the Berber culture. This is the number one request, the Berber culture. So we're creating these episodes for you to get you closer to that culture, to understand it. Even though there's many things that I don't understand about the Amazigh people, the Amazigh culture, when we go to Rift, when we go to the southern part of Morocco, they're all different. They all act different. Their hospitality is good and it's different in different ways. So we'll try to tap into that for a little bit. And also,
for a lot of people who have gone with us. I wanna say especially thank you to them because there's certain things we do just because we are Amazigh. Because we wanna say, hey, this is us, this is our culture, and thank you for the opportunity to share it with you. This is how we do things in our culture. It's not part of the tour, it doesn't cost you anything. It's something that we just add for your tour and it adds the experience. It takes it to completely different level. So...
Stay tuned in for the next episode and this has been an amazing episode. Part 1. Thank you very much.