High Low Brow
We’re carving out space in the airwaves for deep dives and thoughtful convos about our beloved pop culture that is often overlooked, laughed at, trashed, and brushed aside. Join us (and some of our internet pals!) for hot, juicy, maybe controversh opinions and a few rounds of games inspired by the stuff you watched when you were home sick with an anxiety-induced stomachache in your formative years.
High Low Brow
The Unseen Side of Fashion: Size Representation & Beyond with Model & Influencer Lydia Okello
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
For years now, the fashion industry has had a problem. While the media has asked us to embrace beauty at every size, it feels like the fashion industry still has yet to catch up. Join us as we dissect the politics of size in fashion, unearthing the biases that impact how plus-sized individuals express themselves. We'll spotlight the tokenization of fat people in the fashion industry; we'll share our longing for a world where all sizes are celebrated and have a candid conversation on what it means to create plus-size collections for all bodies.
Our guest, Lydia Okello, is joining us on the podcast this week; they are a non-binary, unapologetic plus-size fashion and lifestyle creator based out of Vancouver, Canada. You may know them from their Instagram handle, StyleIsStyle, or have read some of their work in Vogue or Fashion Canada, where they have discussed everything from plus-size fashion to sustainable plus-size fashion.
Together we're laughing, crying, and throwing up about all things plus-size fashion. Then to bring it all together, we play a game outlining who we think our most fashionable fat cartoon characters of all time are. TBH: you'll be surprised who makes it to the end. So get comfy, open your mind, and prepare for a deep dive into the world of fashion, size, and representation. Let's celebrate beauty in every size together.
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Show Notes and References!
- The Mean Life of a ‘Midsize’ Model - The New York Times
- ARE PLUS-SIZE WOMEN THE PROBLEM WITH PLUS-SIZE FASHION? - Fashionista
- Unraveling The Plus Size Problem - Business of Fashion
- What Happened to Plus Size - Vogue Business
- Why Plus-Size Models Just Can't Ever Win - Allure
- What really is plus-size fashion? Experts weigh in on the costs and trends - CNN
- The Problem with Shein and the Plus Size Community: Examining the Complexities - GarnerStyle
Okay, yeah.
Speaker 2Okay, so the business separating business, fatness and plus size fashion and the politics side of it.
Speaker 1Yeah, I mean, I think that is something that's really tricky and hard because, you know, as much as clothing is inanimate and has no politics to it, as just an object that exists, the wearer has an identity of their own right and, especially when we're talking about fatness and that, like clothing for fat people, I think all of the social and like economic, etc. Factors that affect a fat experience do tie into like the things that fat people want to wear and the ways that that shop and feel, seen and, and you know, acknowledged. So, as much as I wish or not even I wish, because I mean I care about like that politics on like it should just be intertwined but as much as some people I think particularly businesses wish that they could participate without having to engage with those parts of a fat experience, I think that's kind of impossible because you know, if you are a fat person who wants to go snowboarding and you got invited by your friends and you have a week till the trip and you don't have any snow pants or any gear, and now you're trying to find snow gear in a week that will get to you before you leave, I mean, yeah, it's gonna be it's, you might be able to expedite it. So Monday I feel better for you to stay onward, I don't know, but you know, like that is that's a perfect example of like, the unfairness of not being seen as like a valuable in person customer right, or someone who wants to do athletics, or being someone who has, you know, all of these different facets of their life where they might require specialty clothing or athletic clothing. The politics of fat phobia is then affecting something that theoretically is kind of neutral right, like wanting a pair of snow pants, and so I think, unfortunately, that's that is very intertwined and I don't see it becoming less intertwined anytime soon. And it's I mean clothing.
Speaker 1Some people I think are like why do you care? Like, why is it important? Like you have stuff you can wear, and it's like well, I want to be able to express myself how I see myself, how I feel inside, the ways that I want to be seen, and I think it's very easy for someone who is in a position of privilege in this case, in a position of thin privilege to disregard how important that might be if you did have access to it right. And so for me, that's that's. That's how that all comes together and I think it will continue to come together, as much as you know, big, big corporate guy X does not want it to be.
Speaker 2And actually I think that's a good before, before we, before we get into our game, which I will have river tell you all about it as as someone who writes about the plus size fashion industry industry, as someone who is a model in the industry. What are some of the things that you would like to see?
Speaker 1Whoa, where do I begin? I mean, I think for me there's still quite a big level of like tokenization and linking back to kind of that conversation of like drop the plus or like I don't want to be called plus. I think that is also a part of that conversation where it's like I don't want to be the one, I don't want to be your projection of like a good fat person. I don't want to exist as an idea and not be seen as like my full and whole self at work. And I think we still are struggling to kind of find a way to not just tokenize fat people. And you know, as far as modeling, like showing fat people in things other than underwear or showing fat people in very ordinary, regular like fashion settings, is still underrepresented it's improving but it's underrepresented. And it's like I want to be a normal ass person. Because I am a normal ass person, I don't just want to be a beacon of like positivity or be, you know, like a thin white woman's like fantasy of like. If you like yourself, then I can too, like it's playing into all those things and like I think a lot of plus size models specifically like do feel those pressures, are that tokenization and you just you move through your job as you move through your job. But I would love to see that change because we're so much more interesting than that and we have so much more to offer than that and I think, if anything, I wish I could experience, like in a fashion setting, more plus size people being presented as a beauty ideal in the same ways that thin people are. And I mean some people will be like why do you have to be a beauty ideal at all? But whatever. But like you know, like there's a lot of really beautiful editorial work that I admire, that I think about and reference. You know when I'm thinking about like clothes and personal style and my own expression.
Speaker 1But as a model, I don't feel like I have been put in those settings very often and it doesn't just boil down to me. I haven't seen models of my size put in those settings very often or, put you know, viewed as more like esoteric, or viewed as like more like moody or dark or all those kind of things. It's, it's kind of a one off. Usually they're they're. They're like wow, like they have a body, like look, they're voluptuous, this is in the scene and it's like these are like really talented, smart people like you could put them in something that has, I guess, more high concept.
Speaker 1That's what I mean is is more high concept plus editorials. As a very specific want, that is something that I personally want because I see the fantasy and I see other creators outside of like fashion making work that reflects that, like I think of, like the photographer shoe glit, I think is their name, I don't remember or they like shoot a bunch of like underwater, like only fat people and only in water, and like their work is so moving and so beautiful and to me when I first saw it I was like, oh, of course, like, of course, we are just as valid to be this fantasy, to be this like imagined, you know, otherworldly being, and I think fashion still really struggles to like understand the con, the context that that plus models could be in, and I think the the viewpoint is still really limited yeah, immediately.
Speaker 2The model that I thought of was Jordan Underwood. Like I've just seen them in so many campaigns now, not necessarily having to do with plus size clothing, but just yeah, period, yeah, there are incredible. There are, yes, like yeah, the fact that you, we can see a body like that in, like all these different, like I want to see that that's what I want to feel, like I can do that too.
Discussion on Fat Representation in Cartoons
Speaker 1It's yeah, it's creating. I think there's a lot of different ways to like reinforce acceptability right, and to me, part of like my work, or like the broader work that I do, is like changing people's ideas of what is acceptable for fat people, and to me that conversation ties into that. Like having fat people presented as art, actual art. That is important, that is valid, that is like vital, and to me it's so exciting to see that, so like I think kind of not exactly hoodwinking people into accepting it.
Speaker 1But you know, like these different presentations, these different mediums also help people be like oh, that's a context I would have never thought of and that is really beautiful. Or I never would have thought that like a model like that could be in that sort of editorial. But now I'm seeing it and it's really inspiring me and it's making me think about the limits that I place on my own body because of the way I think it should be. You know, so like for me, that bigger conversation is like it's always really exciting and it's always like really rewarding when people message me or comment or like, oh, like I try color more because I see you are color, or like I never wore baggy stuff and you're like always in baggy stuff and it looks good on you, so I realized I could just wear it like that sort of stuff is really exciting to me because that's what I want, because that's what I needed, right, and that's like what. Eventually I found that I want to exist more and more in the world.
Speaker 2Yeah, I think that's a great place for us to sort of like stop.
Speaker 3Mm, hmm, fat representation cartoons is difficult, like in that it hasn't existed except in a very jokey way. But we are certainly going to do our best to find the most fashionable fashionable yeah, fictional characters from cartoons and other cartoon like media. Yes, because it's going to be tournament bracket style.
Speaker 2Yeah, so and if you don't know who someone is, I shared with you a link and we'll have to send it, because I absolutely one second here. I'm going to pause, right, all right, are you ready?
Speaker 3I am ready Nation. We're just going head to head, so randomized. I did not select these because round one is a miss piggy of miss piggy fame versus Brenda from Gravity Falls. I'm I don't want to call it, but I, I, my vote is for miss piggy personally.
Speaker 2Yeah, I think miss piggy is like iconic and amazing.
Speaker 1My vote is also miss piggy.
Speaker 2I mean, I think we kind of figured that that was going to happen. Random selection, yeah, random selection, quote, unquote. It was random, okay, laura.
Speaker 3Lightfoot from onwards new ish Pixar movie that nobody saw.
Speaker 2Okay.
Speaker 3And Fiona from Shrek, Not the.
Speaker 1I was going to say this one is hard because it's like you know the transitions. I think I would still pick Fiona.
Speaker 2Yeah, I also was going to pick Fiona. I was like she's the princess that everybody, like you, want to be that.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 3Fiona is the clear winner for me as well. I'm going to pick the non-binary icon, the Cheshire cat versus Bowser.
Speaker 1Oh, that one's hard. This one is like actually really hard because I'm like I Mean the Cheshire cat queer, chaos, chaos, yeah. But also like Bowser just really has a fit always, yeah, no matter what is happening, there is a fit.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1Oh.
Speaker 2I know I I Gonna, I'm gonna wait to you because for verse.
Speaker 3I personally say Bowser because he has different fits, whereas the Cheshire cat is is a moment he's iconic. But yeah, I do feel like Bowser has a little more range.
Speaker 2I, I too was gonna pick Bowser.
Speaker 1Yeah, that's where I was leaning when I was like thinking about specifically fashion I think. I think it's Bowser.
Speaker 2Yeah, I. I'm like, how can you not I mean to be fair, cheshire cat Iconic, mm-hmm, Bowser's pretty good too especially recent representation.
Speaker 3Oh my god.
Speaker 2Yes.
Speaker 3We got Winnie the Pooh versus Bob Belcher.
Speaker 1I mean. My vote immediately is Winnie the Pooh, because I love wearing no pants. You have been consistently wearing no pants, yeah, oh.
Speaker 2Have you? Okay, this is totally off topic, but still related. Have you seen the Winnie the Pooh horror film? No, let it, honey, yeah.
Speaker 1Yeah, I have not. I've heard of it, but I haven't seen it yet.
Speaker 2We haven't seen it either, but Patrick star.
Speaker 3not Patrick star, but from SpongeBob Patrick the starfish, mr Smee, from Peter. Pan.
Speaker 1Oh, I mean this picture that you've used. A Patrick is like so cute.
Speaker 2I mean, yeah, he has the boots, the iconic like yeah, he's got little boots on.
Speaker 1But then this, this person from Peter Pan, who I kind of forgot about Iconic crop top situation, which I do love, love a fat crop top. Yeah, of course back I mean I kind of feel like Patrick, because Patrick is like inherently, like Just extra, like you're a star, like you, no matter what you do, you're a star, it just.
Speaker 2I like that. I was gonna go Patrick star too.
Speaker 3I was leaning Mr Smee, but I do like the Patrick star. I'm like yeah, let's, let's go back.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 3Okay, the fairy godmother from track two, or spinerella from the reboot of she-ra.
Speaker 1I feel like I'm biased on this one, because I have not watched Shira and I obviously could not escape Shrek in any way, shape or form as a person who was like the exact audience at the time it came out. But the Shira outfit there's like a cute little like collar situation. I mean I think Shira got mother because like nobody expected her to slay and she was like no, no, I've got this. Hold my beer.
Speaker 2Yeah, I can slay. Yeah, oh, my God.
Speaker 3Okay, and we got.
Speaker 1I feel like I missed one. There is one that you missed. Oh shoot, that's underneath the Cheshire cat.
Speaker 3Let me, let's quickly go back there, because I didn't put them into your head.
Speaker 2No, I didn't.
Speaker 1It's a good one. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2It's the best one even.
Speaker 3Ursula from Ursula fame versus Anathist from Steven Universe.
Speaker 2I mean, is this even a question?
Speaker 1See, to me it is a question I just like. I love that Amethyst is just, she's just like head empty. She's head empty and she's like I'm going to do what I want to do and that's just what's going to happen, and that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 2Amethyst is a bimbo.
Speaker 1I don't know if she's like quite bimbo, but she's definitely on the pack to bimbo, which I love for a fat character, and presented in a way that is like neutral, like not, she's not demoralized because of that, it's just who she is, which I love. But oh, but then it's like it's Ursula, like, it's literally Ursula, like have the one fit, yeah, she does only have the one fit. And does Amethyst get different quotes?
Speaker 2Yeah, she does, she's got a few of them and she also. Yeah, that's hard and if we look at like, this is the Ursula from the cartoon, not the live action.
Speaker 1Yes, yes, that was. That was more of a mess thing you think it would be. I did enjoy the movie, but the Ursula specific I was like I want to tweak some things here. I mean I'm going to be contrarian and I think my vote is Amethyst because also she has a ponytail and I love ponytails, like a high pony Instant crush.
Speaker 2So honestly, I think I'm I'm leaning that way too.
Speaker 3I'm like, I'm very on team Amethyst. Okay, we're going to get all of these comments being like how dare you erase Ursula, listen. And we got Queen of Hearts versus Rose Quartz, also from Steven Universe.
Speaker 1So hard. I find this one hard because I'm like your attitudes are so different, which makes me view you. That's coming into like my thought process, which maybe it shouldn't, I don't know. It's also been a long time since I've watched Alice, so I'm like trying to remember.
Speaker 2I feel like Rose Quartz just has the one outfit. Yes.
Speaker 3Yeah, I think she has two throughout, but yeah.
Speaker 2Yeah, she's giving me, like you know, pastel girlfriend vibes.
Speaker 1Yeah, it's a pastel high femme situation, but her hair is so big I love big hair, same so bad it's distracting me because her hair is just so big. But then you know what? Then the Queenie Quartz has like so many good accessories. When I'm looking, she's got this like fun little heart fan and like a crown which I, if I could have a crown, I would love to have a crown.
Speaker 1She does it and like a sort of like cape overlay, like her dress is like more intricate. I don't know. I think if I'm basing it strictly on fashion, it is Queen of Hearts if I'm picking that way.
Speaker 3I'm also leaning Queen of Hearts.
Speaker 2I guess I was just like I love you, rose Quartz.
Speaker 1Oh I love Rose Quartz. Don't get it twisted. I love Rose Quartz so much. That's why it's hard.
Speaker 2It's so hard.
Speaker 3I'm like character wise.
Speaker 1Rose Quartz is like I love her so much. But if I'm including the fashion, I think the Queen of Hearts just has more to give.
Speaker 3I think so too. All right, let's go to our semi-final rounds. Oh my gosh, miss Pee versus Fiona.
Speaker 1Oh, I would love to see this just actually play out because I'm a buddy, my vote is still Miss Pee, but it hurts.
Speaker 3I too Same. I mean, she was on Vogue, wasn't she?
Speaker 1I think so. I feel like she's at least had like a Vogue spread. Yeah, a genuine Vogue spread, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3Yeah, okay, this is a tough one because of my out of order thing, but also because of a tough one Bowser or Amethyst.
Speaker 1Oh, I'm thinking of this. Yeah, yeah, I'm going with Head Empty.
Speaker 3Okay, all right. Winnie the Pooh or Patrick Star, kind of the poor little opposites. Even shirts or pants yeah, shirts, or pants.
Speaker 1Oh, but Patrick, you know what Patrick in the little boots for like lace up, yeah, like I mean I feel the great boots.
Speaker 2I'm kind of leaning towards Patrick on this one.
Speaker 1I think I'm leaning towards Patrick, but I feel guilty. It's not personal.
Speaker 3I'm very happy with that too. And Fairy, godmother or Queen of Arts.
Speaker 1Cool, yeah, I'm going to go. Fairy Godmother for me.
Speaker 3I think so too.
Speaker 1It's the sequence. It's the sequence.
Speaker 3The costume change the number. So that was quarterfinals. I lied. Okay, we've got Miss Piggy versus Anathas.
Speaker 1No, I know, I know, I know it would get to this point when you're like, I still picked Miss Piggy. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2Same.
Speaker 3Then we got Patrick versus the Fairy Godmother.
Speaker 1Patrick. Yeah, patrick is so silly, he's just like fun, and silly he's always. He always lightens the mood.
Speaker 3All right, finals are Miss Piggy versus Patrick. Oh my god.
Miss Piggy's Impact and Personal Projects
Speaker 1Okay, well, my vote is Miss Piggy. Yes, patrick, I'm sorry, miss Piggy, literally you can't compete with her. No, but she's had, she's had, like she has, like the best closet, her husband just hand and foot waiting on her. Like I can't, you can't argue Like she's so, so iconic, yes.
Speaker 3After I put the bracket together I was like I think including Miss Piggy was probably a mis.
Speaker 1It's like a ringer, like how are you supposed to pick anyone else? I feel like she, like as a child, like in hindsight, as a child she was like one of the few fat, reoccurring fat characters that I was like, oh you, being fat is not bad for you, like it's not like negatively affecting your life and you don't dislike it and you're not a villain because of it.
Speaker 1It wasn't a joke, it was just. And when people tried to make it a joke, she was just like no, no, I look great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. She was high up, so I feel like I have so much like love for her as someone growing up in a time where fatness was not as in a more positive light. She definitely like she just was doing the thing. Yeah, as she does.
Speaker 2Well, that, that is the episode. That is it. Do you want to tell the folks who are listening right now where they can find you and also just about give a shout out to any of the projects that you're working on?
Speaker 1Well, you can find me on Twitter, instagram and other platforms. Am I on TikTok? I'm on TikTok, but on most I'm style is style, but on TikTok I'm style is style one, Much to my chagrin, but that that somebody has it and I can't take it from them. So if you search Lydia O'Kello it's an uncommon name, so like I should come up if you forget the handle. Yeah, I mean, like what do I have coming up? Just like lots of content stuff. I have some like projects in the background that I can't talk about yet, but like really exciting stuff coming down the pike. But if you are looking for like personal song inspiration or just like you know, happy, fat, lifestyle, queer type things, that's definitely the umbrella that I encompassed and hopefully you know you enjoy the content.
Speaker 2Yes, thank you so much again for being here.
Speaker 3This is so wonderful, yeah, thank you.
Speaker 1Yeah it was really great. It was lovely to chat, okay, so now I'm gonna.
