For years now, the fashion industry has had a problem. While the media has asked us to embrace beauty at every size, it feels like the fashion industry still has yet to catch up. Join us as we dissect the politics of size in fashion, unearthing the biases that impact how plus-sized individuals express themselves. We'll spotlight the tokenization of fat people in the fashion industry; we'll share our longing for a world where all sizes are celebrated and have a candid conversation on what it means to create plus-size collections for all bodies.
Our guest, Lydia Okello, is joining us on the podcast this week; they are a non-binary, unapologetic plus-size fashion and lifestyle creator based out of Vancouver, Canada. You may know them from their Instagram handle, StyleIsStyle, or have read some of their work in Vogue or Fashion Canada, where they have discussed everything from plus-size fashion to sustainable plus-size fashion.
Together we're laughing, crying, and throwing up about all things plus-size fashion. Then to bring it all together, we play a game outlining who we think our most fashionable fat cartoon characters of all time are. TBH: you'll be surprised who makes it to the end. So get comfy, open your mind, and prepare for a deep dive into the world of fashion, size, and representation. Let's celebrate beauty in every size together.
For years now, the fashion industry has had a problem. While the media has asked us to embrace beauty at every size, it feels like the fashion industry still has yet to catch up. Join us as we dissect the politics of size in fashion, unearthing the biases that impact how plus-sized individuals express themselves. We'll spotlight the tokenization of fat people in the fashion industry; we'll share our longing for a world where all sizes are celebrated and have a candid conversation on what it means to create plus-size collections for all bodies.
Our guest, Lydia Okello, is joining us on the podcast this week; they are a non-binary, unapologetic plus-size fashion and lifestyle creator based out of Vancouver, Canada. You may know them from their Instagram handle, StyleIsStyle, or have read some of their work in Vogue or Fashion Canada, where they have discussed everything from plus-size fashion to sustainable plus-size fashion.
Together we're laughing, crying, and throwing up about all things plus-size fashion. Then to bring it all together, we play a game outlining who we think our most fashionable fat cartoon characters of all time are. TBH: you'll be surprised who makes it to the end. So get comfy, open your mind, and prepare for a deep dive into the world of fashion, size, and representation. Let's celebrate beauty in every size together.
Okay, so the business separating business, fatness and plus size fashion and the politics side of it.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, I mean, I think that is something that's really tricky and hard because, you know, as much as clothing is inanimate and has no politics to it, as just an object that exists, the wearer has an identity of their own right and, especially when we're talking about fatness and that, like clothing for fat people, I think all of the social and like economic, etc. Factors that affect a fat experience do tie into like the things that fat people want to wear and the ways that that shop and feel, seen and, and you know, acknowledged. So, as much as I wish or not even I wish, because I mean I care about like that politics on like it should just be intertwined but as much as some people I think particularly businesses wish that they could participate without having to engage with those parts of a fat experience, I think that's kind of impossible because you know, if you are a fat person who wants to go snowboarding and you got invited by your friends and you have a week till the trip and you don't have any snow pants or any gear, and now you're trying to find snow gear in a week that will get to you before you leave, I mean, yeah, it's gonna be it's, you might be able to expedite it. So Monday I feel better for you to stay onward, I don't know, but you know, like that is that's a perfect example of like, the unfairness of not being seen as like a valuable in person customer right, or someone who wants to do athletics, or being someone who has, you know, all of these different facets of their life where they might require specialty clothing or athletic clothing. The politics of fat phobia is then affecting something that theoretically is kind of neutral right, like wanting a pair of snow pants, and so I think, unfortunately, that's that is very intertwined and I don't see it becoming less intertwined anytime soon. And it's I mean clothing.
Speaker 1:
Some people I think are like why do you care? Like, why is it important? Like you have stuff you can wear, and it's like well, I want to be able to express myself how I see myself, how I feel inside, the ways that I want to be seen, and I think it's very easy for someone who is in a position of privilege in this case, in a position of thin privilege to disregard how important that might be if you did have access to it right. And so for me, that's that's. That's how that all comes together and I think it will continue to come together, as much as you know, big, big corporate guy X does not want it to be.
Speaker 2:
And actually I think that's a good before, before we, before we get into our game, which I will have river tell you all about it as as someone who writes about the plus size fashion industry industry, as someone who is a model in the industry. What are some of the things that you would like to see?
Speaker 1:
Whoa, where do I begin? I mean, I think for me there's still quite a big level of like tokenization and linking back to kind of that conversation of like drop the plus or like I don't want to be called plus. I think that is also a part of that conversation where it's like I don't want to be the one, I don't want to be your projection of like a good fat person. I don't want to exist as an idea and not be seen as like my full and whole self at work. And I think we still are struggling to kind of find a way to not just tokenize fat people. And you know, as far as modeling, like showing fat people in things other than underwear or showing fat people in very ordinary, regular like fashion settings, is still underrepresented it's improving but it's underrepresented. And it's like I want to be a normal ass person. Because I am a normal ass person, I don't just want to be a beacon of like positivity or be, you know, like a thin white woman's like fantasy of like. If you like yourself, then I can too, like it's playing into all those things and like I think a lot of plus size models specifically like do feel those pressures, are that tokenization and you just you move through your job as you move through your job. But I would love to see that change because we're so much more interesting than that and we have so much more to offer than that and I think, if anything, I wish I could experience, like in a fashion setting, more plus size people being presented as a beauty ideal in the same ways that thin people are. And I mean some people will be like why do you have to be a beauty ideal at all? But whatever. But like you know, like there's a lot of really beautiful editorial work that I admire, that I think about and reference. You know when I'm thinking about like clothes and personal style and my own expression.
Speaker 1:
But as a model, I don't feel like I have been put in those settings very often and it doesn't just boil down to me. I haven't seen models of my size put in those settings very often or, put you know, viewed as more like esoteric, or viewed as like more like moody or dark or all those kind of things. It's, it's kind of a one off. Usually they're they're. They're like wow, like they have a body, like look, they're voluptuous, this is in the scene and it's like these are like really talented, smart people like you could put them in something that has, I guess, more high concept.
Speaker 1:
That's what I mean is is more high concept plus editorials. As a very specific want, that is something that I personally want because I see the fantasy and I see other creators outside of like fashion making work that reflects that, like I think of, like the photographer shoe glit, I think is their name, I don't remember or they like shoot a bunch of like underwater, like only fat people and only in water, and like their work is so moving and so beautiful and to me when I first saw it I was like, oh, of course, like, of course, we are just as valid to be this fantasy, to be this like imagined, you know, otherworldly being, and I think fashion still really struggles to like understand the con, the context that that plus models could be in, and I think the the viewpoint is still really limited yeah, immediately.
Speaker 2:
The model that I thought of was Jordan Underwood. Like I've just seen them in so many campaigns now, not necessarily having to do with plus size clothing, but just yeah, period, yeah, there are incredible. There are, yes, like yeah, the fact that you, we can see a body like that in, like all these different, like I want to see that that's what I want to feel, like I can do that too.
Speaker 1:
It's yeah, it's creating. I think there's a lot of different ways to like reinforce acceptability right, and to me, part of like my work, or like the broader work that I do, is like changing people's ideas of what is acceptable for fat people, and to me that conversation ties into that. Like having fat people presented as art, actual art. That is important, that is valid, that is like vital, and to me it's so exciting to see that, so like I think kind of not exactly hoodwinking people into accepting it.
Speaker 1:
But you know, like these different presentations, these different mediums also help people be like oh, that's a context I would have never thought of and that is really beautiful. Or I never would have thought that like a model like that could be in that sort of editorial. But now I'm seeing it and it's really inspiring me and it's making me think about the limits that I place on my own body because of the way I think it should be. You know, so like for me, that bigger conversation is like it's always really exciting and it's always like really rewarding when people message me or comment or like, oh, like I try color more because I see you are color, or like I never wore baggy stuff and you're like always in baggy stuff and it looks good on you, so I realized I could just wear it like that sort of stuff is really exciting to me because that's what I want, because that's what I needed, right, and that's like what. Eventually I found that I want to exist more and more in the world.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I think that's a great place for us to sort of like stop.
Speaker 3:
Mm, hmm, fat representation cartoons is difficult, like in that it hasn't existed except in a very jokey way. But we are certainly going to do our best to find the most fashionable fashionable yeah, fictional characters from cartoons and other cartoon like media. Yes, because it's going to be tournament bracket style.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, so and if you don't know who someone is, I shared with you a link and we'll have to send it, because I absolutely one second here. I'm going to pause, right, all right, are you ready?
Speaker 3:
I am ready Nation. We're just going head to head, so randomized. I did not select these because round one is a miss piggy of miss piggy fame versus Brenda from Gravity Falls. I'm I don't want to call it, but I, I, my vote is for miss piggy personally.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I think miss piggy is like iconic and amazing.
Speaker 1:
My vote is also miss piggy.
Speaker 2:
I mean, I think we kind of figured that that was going to happen. Random selection, yeah, random selection, quote, unquote. It was random, okay, laura.
Speaker 3:
Lightfoot from onwards new ish Pixar movie that nobody saw.
Speaker 2:
Okay.
Speaker 3:
And Fiona from Shrek, Not the.
Speaker 1:
I was going to say this one is hard because it's like you know the transitions. I think I would still pick Fiona.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I also was going to pick Fiona. I was like she's the princess that everybody, like you, want to be that.
Speaker 1:
Yeah.
Speaker 3:
Fiona is the clear winner for me as well. I'm going to pick the non-binary icon, the Cheshire cat versus Bowser.
Speaker 1:
Oh, that one's hard. This one is like actually really hard because I'm like I Mean the Cheshire cat queer, chaos, chaos, yeah. But also like Bowser just really has a fit always, yeah, no matter what is happening, there is a fit.
Speaker 2:
Yeah.
Speaker 1:
Oh.
Speaker 2:
I know I I Gonna, I'm gonna wait to you because for verse.
Speaker 3:
I personally say Bowser because he has different fits, whereas the Cheshire cat is is a moment he's iconic. But yeah, I do feel like Bowser has a little more range.
Speaker 2:
I, I too was gonna pick Bowser.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, that's where I was leaning when I was like thinking about specifically fashion I think. I think it's Bowser.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I. I'm like, how can you not I mean to be fair, cheshire cat Iconic, mm-hmm, Bowser's pretty good too especially recent representation.
Speaker 3:
Oh my god.
Speaker 2:
Yes.
Speaker 3:
We got Winnie the Pooh versus Bob Belcher.
Speaker 1:
I mean. My vote immediately is Winnie the Pooh, because I love wearing no pants. You have been consistently wearing no pants, yeah, oh.
Speaker 2:
Have you? Okay, this is totally off topic, but still related. Have you seen the Winnie the Pooh horror film? No, let it, honey, yeah.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, I have not. I've heard of it, but I haven't seen it yet.
Speaker 2:
We haven't seen it either, but Patrick star.
Speaker 3:
not Patrick star, but from SpongeBob Patrick the starfish, mr Smee, from Peter. Pan.
Speaker 1:
Oh, I mean this picture that you've used. A Patrick is like so cute.
Speaker 2:
I mean, yeah, he has the boots, the iconic like yeah, he's got little boots on.
Speaker 1:
But then this, this person from Peter Pan, who I kind of forgot about Iconic crop top situation, which I do love, love a fat crop top. Yeah, of course back I mean I kind of feel like Patrick, because Patrick is like inherently, like Just extra, like you're a star, like you, no matter what you do, you're a star, it just.
Speaker 2:
I like that. I was gonna go Patrick star too.
Speaker 3:
I was leaning Mr Smee, but I do like the Patrick star. I'm like yeah, let's, let's go back.
Speaker 2:
Yeah.
Speaker 3:
Okay, the fairy godmother from track two, or spinerella from the reboot of she-ra.
Speaker 1:
I feel like I'm biased on this one, because I have not watched Shira and I obviously could not escape Shrek in any way, shape or form as a person who was like the exact audience at the time it came out. But the Shira outfit there's like a cute little like collar situation. I mean I think Shira got mother because like nobody expected her to slay and she was like no, no, I've got this. Hold my beer.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I can slay. Yeah, oh, my God.
Speaker 3:
Okay, and we got.
Speaker 1:
I feel like I missed one. There is one that you missed. Oh shoot, that's underneath the Cheshire cat.
Speaker 3:
Let me, let's quickly go back there, because I didn't put them into your head.
Speaker 2:
No, I didn't.
Speaker 1:
It's a good one. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:
It's the best one even.
Speaker 3:
Ursula from Ursula fame versus Anathist from Steven Universe.
Speaker 2:
I mean, is this even a question?
Speaker 1:
See, to me it is a question I just like. I love that Amethyst is just, she's just like head empty. She's head empty and she's like I'm going to do what I want to do and that's just what's going to happen, and that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:
Amethyst is a bimbo.
Speaker 1:
I don't know if she's like quite bimbo, but she's definitely on the pack to bimbo, which I love for a fat character, and presented in a way that is like neutral, like not, she's not demoralized because of that, it's just who she is, which I love. But oh, but then it's like it's Ursula, like, it's literally Ursula, like have the one fit, yeah, she does only have the one fit. And does Amethyst get different quotes?
Speaker 2:
Yeah, she does, she's got a few of them and she also. Yeah, that's hard and if we look at like, this is the Ursula from the cartoon, not the live action.
Speaker 1:
Yes, yes, that was. That was more of a mess thing you think it would be. I did enjoy the movie, but the Ursula specific I was like I want to tweak some things here. I mean I'm going to be contrarian and I think my vote is Amethyst because also she has a ponytail and I love ponytails, like a high pony Instant crush.
Speaker 2:
So honestly, I think I'm I'm leaning that way too.
Speaker 3:
I'm like, I'm very on team Amethyst. Okay, we're going to get all of these comments being like how dare you erase Ursula, listen. And we got Queen of Hearts versus Rose Quartz, also from Steven Universe.
Speaker 1:
So hard. I find this one hard because I'm like your attitudes are so different, which makes me view you. That's coming into like my thought process, which maybe it shouldn't, I don't know. It's also been a long time since I've watched Alice, so I'm like trying to remember.
Speaker 2:
I feel like Rose Quartz just has the one outfit. Yes.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, I think she has two throughout, but yeah.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, she's giving me, like you know, pastel girlfriend vibes.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, it's a pastel high femme situation, but her hair is so big I love big hair, same so bad it's distracting me because her hair is just so big. But then you know what? Then the Queenie Quartz has like so many good accessories. When I'm looking, she's got this like fun little heart fan and like a crown which I, if I could have a crown, I would love to have a crown.
Speaker 1:
She does it and like a sort of like cape overlay, like her dress is like more intricate. I don't know. I think if I'm basing it strictly on fashion, it is Queen of Hearts if I'm picking that way.
Speaker 3:
I'm also leaning Queen of Hearts.
Speaker 2:
I guess I was just like I love you, rose Quartz.
Speaker 1:
Oh I love Rose Quartz. Don't get it twisted. I love Rose Quartz so much. That's why it's hard.
Speaker 2:
It's so hard.
Speaker 3:
I'm like character wise.
Speaker 1:
Rose Quartz is like I love her so much. But if I'm including the fashion, I think the Queen of Hearts just has more to give.
Speaker 3:
I think so too. All right, let's go to our semi-final rounds. Oh my gosh, miss Pee versus Fiona.
Speaker 1:
Oh, I would love to see this just actually play out because I'm a buddy, my vote is still Miss Pee, but it hurts.
Speaker 3:
I too Same. I mean, she was on Vogue, wasn't she?
Speaker 1:
I think so. I feel like she's at least had like a Vogue spread. Yeah, a genuine Vogue spread, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, okay, this is a tough one because of my out of order thing, but also because of a tough one Bowser or Amethyst.
Speaker 1:
Oh, I'm thinking of this. Yeah, yeah, I'm going with Head Empty.
Speaker 3:
Okay, all right. Winnie the Pooh or Patrick Star, kind of the poor little opposites. Even shirts or pants yeah, shirts, or pants.
Speaker 1:
Oh, but Patrick, you know what Patrick in the little boots for like lace up, yeah, like I mean I feel the great boots.
Speaker 2:
I'm kind of leaning towards Patrick on this one.
Speaker 1:
I think I'm leaning towards Patrick, but I feel guilty. It's not personal.
Speaker 3:
I'm very happy with that too. And Fairy, godmother or Queen of Arts.
Speaker 1:
Cool, yeah, I'm going to go. Fairy Godmother for me.
Speaker 3:
I think so too.
Speaker 1:
It's the sequence. It's the sequence.
Speaker 3:
The costume change the number. So that was quarterfinals. I lied. Okay, we've got Miss Piggy versus Anathas.
Speaker 1:
No, I know, I know, I know it would get to this point when you're like, I still picked Miss Piggy. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:
Same.
Speaker 3:
Then we got Patrick versus the Fairy Godmother.
Speaker 1:
Patrick. Yeah, patrick is so silly, he's just like fun, and silly he's always. He always lightens the mood.
Speaker 3:
All right, finals are Miss Piggy versus Patrick. Oh my god.
Speaker 1:
Okay, well, my vote is Miss Piggy. Yes, patrick, I'm sorry, miss Piggy, literally you can't compete with her. No, but she's had, she's had, like she has, like the best closet, her husband just hand and foot waiting on her. Like I can't, you can't argue Like she's so, so iconic, yes.
Speaker 3:
After I put the bracket together I was like I think including Miss Piggy was probably a mis.
Speaker 1:
It's like a ringer, like how are you supposed to pick anyone else? I feel like she, like as a child, like in hindsight, as a child she was like one of the few fat, reoccurring fat characters that I was like, oh you, being fat is not bad for you, like it's not like negatively affecting your life and you don't dislike it and you're not a villain because of it.
Speaker 1:
It wasn't a joke, it was just. And when people tried to make it a joke, she was just like no, no, I look great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. She was high up, so I feel like I have so much like love for her as someone growing up in a time where fatness was not as in a more positive light. She definitely like she just was doing the thing. Yeah, as she does.
Speaker 2:
Well, that, that is the episode. That is it. Do you want to tell the folks who are listening right now where they can find you and also just about give a shout out to any of the projects that you're working on?
Speaker 1:
Well, you can find me on Twitter, instagram and other platforms. Am I on TikTok? I'm on TikTok, but on most I'm style is style, but on TikTok I'm style is style one, Much to my chagrin, but that that somebody has it and I can't take it from them. So if you search Lydia O'Kello it's an uncommon name, so like I should come up if you forget the handle. Yeah, I mean, like what do I have coming up? Just like lots of content stuff. I have some like projects in the background that I can't talk about yet, but like really exciting stuff coming down the pike. But if you are looking for like personal song inspiration or just like you know, happy, fat, lifestyle, queer type things, that's definitely the umbrella that I encompassed and hopefully you know you enjoy the content.
Speaker 2:
Yes, thank you so much again for being here.
Speaker 3:
This is so wonderful, yeah, thank you.
Speaker 1:
Yeah it was really great. It was lovely to chat, okay, so now I'm gonna.
