Join us as we discuss our recent visit to the Toronto After Dark Film Festival and offer insights on two nail-biting thrillers - 'Suitable Flesh' and 'It's a Wonderful Knife.' But that's just the tip of the iceberg. We're also putting a spotlight on seasonal depression, and Ama's sharing her journey reading Britney Spears new memoir, The Woman In Me.
We are chuffed to welcome our guest this week, Lisa Whittington Hill, publisher of This Magazine and author of the new book, 'Girls, Interrupted: How Pop Culture Is Failing Women,' into today's chat! Together, we venture into the jarring world of media treatment meted out to celebrities like Britney Spears, Amber Heard, and Paris Hilton. Lisa's expert insights on how pop culture has been failing women is an eye-opening discussion. Brace yourselves as we dive further into controversial documentaries, celebrity scandals, and gender bias in pop culture.
Don't forget to leave us a rating on the episode and we'll see you again in 2 weeks!
Join us as we discuss our recent visit to the Toronto After Dark Film Festival and offer insights on two nail-biting thrillers - 'Suitable Flesh' and 'It's a Wonderful Knife.' But that's just the tip of the iceberg. We're also putting a spotlight on seasonal depression, and Ama's sharing her journey reading Britney Spears new memoir, The Woman In Me.
We are chuffed to welcome our guest this week, Lisa Whittington Hill, publisher of This Magazine and author of the new book, 'Girls, Interrupted: How Pop Culture Is Failing Women,' into today's chat! Together, we venture into the jarring world of media treatment meted out to celebrities like Britney Spears, Amber Heard, and Paris Hilton. Lisa's expert insights on how pop culture has been failing women is an eye-opening discussion. Brace yourselves as we dive further into controversial documentaries, celebrity scandals, and gender bias in pop culture.
Don't forget to leave us a rating on the episode and we'll see you again in 2 weeks!
Welcome to Hi Lowbrow. The show with highbrow takes on lowbrow culture. I'm your one host, my describer.
Speaker 2:And I'm your co-host, your very older.
Speaker 1:Well, guess what what? I proved you wrong.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, we had a guest, a guest in everything, we had a guest in everything.
Speaker 1:Sometimes I just want to like be told that I'm right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you were right. Hey, when you're right, you're right, you're always right.
Speaker 1:Thank you, I just wanted to be acknowledged we're not throwing to the episode yet.
Speaker 2:No no.
Speaker 1:It's been a time. What have you been feeling in the air?
Speaker 2:I feel like it's just that time of year where everyone's like seasonal depression starts kicking in and yeah, yeah, I think I was like do you have a sad? Yeah, and I was like, oh, I do have a sad. I think I need to bust up the sadland.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, it is that time of year. It is that time of year, so for all our sad.
Speaker 2:It's the worst time of the year.
Speaker 1:I was going to say for all our saddy baddies.
Speaker 2:Literally everyone.
Speaker 1:We see you, we support you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, we know who our target demo is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we absolutely want to present to. I loved how, when we were chatting the other day could have also been yesterday time in a circle, who cares? You were like Emma, our hot girl. Summer was supposed to be ended like four weeks ago. No, it was only like.
Speaker 2:Ended with your birthday karaoke which happened two weeks ago. We're having a.
Speaker 1:We finally got caught up with DJ Khaled, so yeah, I mean, we all have known that DJ Khaled is.
Speaker 2:A character.
Speaker 1:Maybe he's a plant of some sort, and perhaps.
Speaker 2:What is this? I don't think so. I think he's just like.
Speaker 1:Eccentric.
Speaker 2:He's definitely that. Yeah, he's I feel like he's reached that amount of money where he's just like I don't fucking care, you know what? Maybe DJ Khaled's one of the real ones where he's like. They're always like, never forget, where you came from Never forget where you came from. And DJ Khaled has certainly not done that, even when he tells them to bring out the whole ocean.
Speaker 1:Bring out the whole ocean. We recently, part of our hot girl extended summer went to the Toronto After Dark Film Festival.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we did, did we talk?
Speaker 1:about that. We didn't talk about it.
Speaker 2:Oh my god.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so what movies did we go to?
Speaker 2:We saw two full films and they do something really cool where they do at the front of them. They do a Sure film, yeah, by a Canadian. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and okay, the first one we saw, which was with suitable flesh. What was it called? The Sure film? Yeah, I want to say it was called like. It was like I know that it was about being gay at a sleepover.
Speaker 1:It was pool party.
Speaker 2:Pool party and it was, it was fun. Yeah, I was like I'm so glad that I got the primer of this is what it's like to be gay at a pool party, yeah, and like oh, yeah, okay, I can relate, yeah. And then the one at the front of the second film that we saw was Game Master.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no Game Master.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Game.
Speaker 1:Master, oh, is that what it was called yeah, sorry, I thought that was one of the names of the full length film.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, no, no, and it was everything I wanted to be. It was a Christmas like holiday set. Yes, couples playing charades, and it was so funny. The credits were funny. Yes, it was wonderful. It was great, but yeah, the first one we saw was Suitable Flesh.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Suitable Flesh had Heather Graham in it.
Speaker 2:It was done by the guys who did Reanimator.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and honestly I think we both said this afterwards we're like it's basically like a Reanimator, but Reanimated. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I was a little concerned about some transphobic undertones with it? Yes, I believe you have mentioned that, yeah, where it's like the main characters and man and then at some point it's like, oh, my god, this body feels so right on me and it's like, oh, he's endangering women. And it's like, ooh, I don't love the parallels to turf talking points, so that took away from it for me. But it is like I saw a review being like if you liked Reanimator, this movie was made for you.
Speaker 1:Yeah and yeah, kind of yeah 100%.
Speaker 2:I loved Reanimator and it was medium made for me.
Speaker 1:That's fair. Yeah, you don't have to like everything, I don't. Yeah, talk us through the second film we saw.
Speaker 2:Oh my god, it's a wonderful knife.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was very good I loved.
Speaker 2:It's a wonderful knife.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was like campy, but it had a good story. It was like it was everything that you needed.
Speaker 2:Well, it was written by the same guy who did Freaky, which was the Vince Vaughn Freaky Friday body swapping one. She did not have transphobic overtones and yet they did body swap between two genders anyways. Yeah, it felt very much like the Happy Death Day and it's just very love letter to Hallmark and Slasher films. It's wonderful. I will not stop recommending it to people. It's the double feature because it's you can watch it for about Halloween and Christmas like a Nightmare before Christmas. Love it. Go watch it Like please. I believe it's on shutter.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think both films are eventually going to be on shutter, so honestly, you should go watch it.
Speaker 2:Just go watch it. They're so good.
Speaker 1:And that was our first time going to the Toronto After Dark Film Festival and we're going to do the pass next year. Yeah, I was like this is great. I'm so sad that I found out about it too late. We still got to see the film.
Speaker 2:There was, like, I think, a film that you wanted to go see and a film that I really wanted to go see Daniel's Gotta Die, which looked wonderful, and it was Bob Sag's last film and I don't remember the one that I oh Restore. Point which was like a cyberpunk sci-fi Polish film, I believe. And I was like you're not going to want to see this, but I am.
Speaker 1:I was like, yeah, this doesn't seem like my vibe.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, it's for sure not.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then I think the one that I wanted to see was, I don't remember, but they had the masks in the year, like I don't remember.
Speaker 2:Foundry's Day. Yes, oh, that one looked very high camp.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I know it didn't sell out. No, no, so I mean I have shot it, we can watch it.
Speaker 1:Great yeah. So yeah, that was sort of our time there, and then what else have we been doing?
Speaker 2:I mean, I feel like desperately trying to make time for ourselves for, like hashtag, self-care.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, today, part of this self-care sort of thing that we've been doing. When we recorded this episode prior with our guest, who we'll get into- in a little bit. It was prior to the Britney Spears memoir coming out, but I had downloaded it. I had prepared myself for this day. It's been a long day, Like I have been waiting.
Speaker 2:You're like, you've got like what? Like 20% of it left. You're almost done.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so to give you listeners some context, way back when I am a person who loves a good audio book. I have ADHD. It's really hard for me to focus on reading books now and way back when I read almost 100.
Speaker 2:You read over 100 books.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like I'm like Emma, that's more than two books a week. Like what the fuck is wrong with you? Yeah.
Speaker 1:So I love a good audio book, yeah, but it's been really difficult for me to get back into it, and the fact that I am almost done this book speaks volumes. I know if you are a Britney stand or fan however you define yourself you are obviously going to go out and get this book Like that's no question, but they're just. I love what is happening currently on the internet, like Britney has roasted Justin Timberlake throughout this entire not the entire book, but like a good majority of this book and she like basically out it like everything we thought we knew is absolutely correct and true.
Speaker 2:And I love like Dom's series and him being like Justin Timberlake, getting back into it and going on tour with NSYNC and Britney just watching him through the window. But to release the memoir, yeah, I just yeah.
Speaker 1:It's, I think, the biggest takeaway and, even without the book being released, the biggest takeaway that I've gotten is that Britney has never been afforded privacy. She's never been afforded the luxury of just being a person who fucks up and you know, we are somewhat we as a society are somewhat to blame for that as well Of course we are.
Speaker 2:It's contributed, it's there was an episode of South Park about it. Where it's they want. We want to see usually young white, blonde women in their like early teens rise and then fucking crash. Yep, Yep.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's sad. It's really really sad. Just before we started recording this, I saw a TikTok where Paris Hilton also gets talked about a lot in the memoir and Britney Spears says that Paris Hilton was one of the legitimate real friends she had for a while.
Speaker 2:I would believe it. Their lives seemed very parallel.
Speaker 1:Yes, and so the TikTok that I saw was Paris Hilton reacting to someone talking about the inclusion of Paris in the book, and she was like nearly in tears, because I think to your point, if anybody has seen the Paris Hilton documentary about her growing up, you will know that she has suffered so much trauma, and I don't trust Kathy Hilton.
Speaker 2:We do not stand Kathy Hilton in this household. But if we get to in the episode, we do get to in the episode. We should throw to the episode. We should throw to the episode.
Speaker 1:Who's our guest this week? We're trying to keep a tight-knit consensus.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 1:So for this week's episode it's great because Britney's memoir is a huge segue. We have author, journalist friend of the show friend of the show. Her name is Lisa Whittington Hill and she's actually just released a book called Girls Interrupted, which is how women were sort of, you know, teared down in pop culture and media, and I think we should just throw the episode Absolutely and Lisa will do a better job. Yes, she will we finally have a guest? We finally have a guest, I know, that we've been talking about it for so long.
Speaker 2:But when I was like, oh, I don't know if next week we're going to have a guest, and then we didn't have a guest again. Listen.
Speaker 3:Life, life, life got real Life got real.
Speaker 1:Anyways, I'm very excited for our guest this week. We have Lisa Whittington Hill, who is the publisher at this magazine, which is a Canadian magazine that talks about politics, arts, culture you name it. They talk about it. I've written for this magazine a few times, which is how Lisa and I got to know each other. But also Lisa is an incredible journalist and they are releasing a book which is coming out on October 26th. If I've got that wrong, lisa will tell me. Their book is called Girl Interrupted how the Media has Failed Women, and that's basically what our topic is about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that. We were like we're going to let you introduce yourself and then you did the full introduction. That's not.
Speaker 1:Listen, there's so much more to Lisa, Of course, of course. So, lisa, thank you for being on High Low Row. It's so lovely to have you. You're welcome to be. Thank you for having me. Now that we've done this whole thing about how I introduced you when I wasn't supposed to, would you love to tell the readers a little bit about who you are and what you do?
Speaker 3:Sure, I mean, I feel like you covered it all so lovely. There's so much of it. I'm Lisa O'Nington Hill. I'm excited that I wrote a book Girls Interrupted how Pop Culture is Failing Women. It is coming out on October 26th, this week, two days after Brittany's book.
Speaker 1:Oh my God, we are going to get to Brittany's book.
Speaker 3:Don't worry.
Speaker 1:I mean, if we had this conversation and did not talk about Brittany, did this conversation even happen? It's my question.
Speaker 3:I'm ready to talk about Brittany.
Speaker 1:I'm waiting for.
Speaker 3:Brittany to email me to see if we can plan our joint book tour.
Speaker 1:Listen, if it happens which I'm going to manifest all of my energy into making it happen I will be the first one in line to get a ticket to go.
Speaker 2:Listeners, please tweet no not that hell site. Tell people what they want nowadays. Please make TikToks about this.
Speaker 1:Yeah fast People go on Instagram. There's threads.
Speaker 2:Threads there's blue sky. Yeah, come on, we don't need X.
Speaker 3:Yeah X, I still call it Twitter. I just can't bring myself to call it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if you're calling it X, it's okay. Now see the tangent. Well, I work full time in social media and it's so funny when people are like X and I'm like please stop. I know that that's actually what it's called now, but can we just call it what it's actually called it's Twitter? It's like the CN Tower, to Skydome to or sorry, cn Tower.
Speaker 2:Skydome to Roger Center.
Speaker 1:Yes, thank you.
Speaker 2:I do love that, after years of Elon dead naming his daughter, that now people are refusing to call his app anything but its dead name.
Speaker 3:Yes, I love that too. I love that. Are people call it like X, formerly known as Twitter?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Or does, formerly known as Twitter or something.
Speaker 2:Hellscape, formerly known as Twitter.
Speaker 3:Let's just call it Twitter. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So I feel actually Twitter is a very good segue into the full conversation, because I feel like and please, lisa, correct me if I'm wrong but back in the 90s, back in, we really relied on print magazines, newspaper gossip columns, that type of thing. But as we progressed into the 2000s, I feel like women have really gotten the shit end of the stick in pop culture when it comes to social media. Would you agree?
Speaker 3:I would agree. I mean, one of the things I really like that I'm kind of seeing on social media now is I think that women can use social media to tell their stories and in the past, in kind of the late 90s, early mid-2000s, when tabloids were writing about Brittany and Lindsay in Paris, you had to rely on these paparazzi photos and they had no time to kind of tell their side of the story. And now, with social media, they can do that. But what I really love about social media and I'm loving seeing is how it is being used to kind of point out these kind of past injustices and like hold up old us weekly problematic headlines and old Rolling Stone covers of Lindsay Lohan with cover lines that are like hot, ready, legal and like yeah, yeah, this was, I posted this on Instagram.
Speaker 3:I posted this cover on Instagram and it's like a Rolling Stone cover from 2004 and it's Lindsay Lohan and, yeah, the cover line is actually hot, ready, legal and she was just 17. And this was like the cover of you know, and at the at the time, rolling Stone was where we went for pop culture and it had reached at the time. So I'm loving that social media is pulling all this stuff, like we're looking at all this problematic stuff and going, wow, we really did these women wrong. It's like we sure did yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean, one of the things that I think about is even the Spice Girls. When the Spice Girls were up and coming, it was like, you know, jerry was the more sexualized one of the Spice and it's like they're. They did like granted, I think that management gave them those personas, but it was like the media really took it and played along with it. And when you're a woman sort of trying to navigate either the entertainment space or Hollywood or the music industry, it's like those labels just stay with you, they're attached forever.
Speaker 3:And I had posted. I'm obsessed with posting these old covers because I think they're they're really, you know, they're hugely problematic, but they're interesting to look at. And, of course, we've been talking a lot about Justin Timmerlake and all these old interviews and stuff has been has been resurfacing on social media, which has been great. But I posted this old details magazine cover from 2002 of Justin Timmerlake and the cover line and I honestly can't believe this was and I wrote it down so I would get it right. Can we ever forgive Justin for all that? To see music, hey, at least he got into Britney's pants. And this was like, yeah, and I posted this on Instagram and I got all these comments.
Speaker 3:People were like did you Photoshop that? Like is that? And I'm like, yes, this is again how we used to talk about these and I think we forget that, like we kind of forget how awful, how awful it all was. But you know, someone was like did you make that up? I'm like, no, like I wish I wish I had, I never would. But no, like this is. So I'm loving social media that it can be used for that. You know, seeing Ashton Kutcher get, you know, lagged on Twitter in the days following the you know Ashton Kutcher, mila Kunna's you know story story video.
Speaker 1:You know was something I really enjoyed, so Well, and I think we have talked about this at home before but one of the things that we've kind of noticed in the last year or so is the climate of people are just like wow, you're rich and I don't care, I'm going to drag you and it's. It's sort of different because that. I'll use this one as an example. It was the rock and Oprah did a fundraiser for was it Hawaii.
Speaker 2:It was relief in Hawaii after. Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:And people were so angry that there was like one Oprah, who's like a billionaire where she has so much money, and then the rock. I mean he's probably got money, but basically two millionaires asking for money for the relief of you know.
Speaker 2:Well, it was especially because they were like we've committed $50 million, and what they mean by we've committed was they've committed to raising other people's money.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah yeah, like they're not actively donating their own money, despite that they have property in Hawaii, and so our technically residents of like support your community support your community.
Speaker 3:Tell us online from their Hawaiian homes like yeah give us one second.
Speaker 1:There's just an air. That was fine.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, it's the yellow one.
Speaker 1:I was a little concerned about, but yeah. I think we're okay. Okay, let's continue. Yeah, yeah, I think people one of the one of the people that I've seen sort of take back the narrative on you know how they show up online and how they were perceived in that whole like Paris, brittany, lindsay Sort of era is Kim Kardashian, shockingly. Yeah, like she. I don't care what anybody thinks about her, but she is a very smart business woman and she knows exactly what she's doing.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like the fact that she is able to take everything that has been weaponized against her and use it to benefit her in the end. Kudos.
Speaker 2:Well, the thing that shocked me about suspicious specifically the Kardashians While I was researching our game, yeah, and the thing that shocked me about was I thought that like it was just going to be like the kids that got things, but there were so many headlines that were like Chris is drunk and like I'm just like not even the long jerk can escape this. No, no, no, there was.
Speaker 3:I remember like headlines about Chris. There was a time period, yeah, when people really really came for Chris like the child blood press and then for you know, robert even, or you know who is Chris's Corey Corey.
Speaker 1:Gamble yeah.
Speaker 3:But Kim Kardashian, yeah, like people, you know people trash Kim and I'm like the woman knows how to build a brand like she really does, like.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah it's. It's fascinating to watch in real time and people get so upset. But I think the other reason why people get so upset is because you know the hyper visibility and what they perceived her to be is just this you know dumb young woman who made a sex tape with Ray J Like she's more than that and I think that makes people angry. She's a lawyer, not yet.
Speaker 2:Oh, not now. She's a lawyer, yeah she's.
Speaker 1:she's a tip. Yeah, the attempt is happening, but yeah, oh, she has a past. No, no, okay, sorry she was doing a baby bar and she failed it. Don't ask me how I know all these Kardashian details.
Speaker 3:Oh, I love that you know all the people with them. I do keep up with them, but I think I think you know people. It's true, you know to what you're saying. Like people kind of really have this sense that the Kardashians are famous for doing nothing you know for the next day. But? But you know, I've watched hours of Kardashians, their reality show and they work, they they're hustling, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I will never forget, though, was it lat. Time is a time as a concept.
Speaker 2:Time is a flat circle, especially during this hellscape.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that we're all in, but when, kim, they were doing an interview, I think it might have been for Vogue, and it was like get up off your ass and work. Yes.
Speaker 2:Nobody wants to work anymore, nobody wants to work?
Speaker 1:Yeah, girl, I definitely do not want to work. However, I do enjoy money. Capitalism.
Speaker 3:I think that should have been like a motivational poster, like a big Get up off your ass and work, like I wonder how to feel day with that one. Oh, yes, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean we want to talk about self awareness. Felt like it was lacking in that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1:Keeping on that like Kim credit, if you like Paris Hilton, because Kim started as Paris's closet organizer. People always talk about how like Paris is, like potentially the like the first influencer, the first this, the first that, and I'm like, yeah, perhaps, but I think it's interesting because I look back at all of those headlines, all of those paparazzi photos, all of the way that she was acting out and we watched her documentary, and you kind of start to realize, oh, this is like a trauma response.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I think, people we don't allow women, celebrities, musicians, whomever we don't allow them the space to be messy.
Speaker 3:No, we don't. We don't allow them the space to be messy and we are so quick to judge and and vilify them for that and we're certainly a double standard. We certainly don't see that with with male celebrities. In fact, we celebrate their messiness and their addictions and their struggles and we call them bad boys and all sorts of those kind of things. But yeah for sure, you know, looking back when I was working on the book, like looking back on old us weekly stories of Paris Hilton and Lindsay and Brittany and all that stuff, you know their messiness, their antics were covered so much and in a way the narrative was so much that they were ruining their lives and they were messing up their careers and all these kinds of ways of framing it in a way that we don't do with male celebrities. You know we certainly weren't doing that with Shia LaBeouf or with Chris Brown or you know all the other. You know I talk a lot about, you know, redemption and forgiveness in the book and who gets it in pop culture and who doesn't.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, when you think about that, we, we kind of hold women in general to a different standard, and I love the sort of example that you gave Chris Brown. It can be a touchy subject for folks. Everyone's like how much more? How much more does he have to like, do to repent for what he did? Doesn't he have a pattern of behavior?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, and I think that's the thing when you look at Chris Brown is people are like you know well, he was young, you know when, when the incident with Rihanna happened, you know he was young. Should he really be punished for something that he did when it was so young? And it's like but he has a pattern of this kind of behavior, like and it doesn't matter, kind of how old he is.
Speaker 3:No, absolutely not, it's not just the one incident with Rihanna. So I think people kind of forgive that and are very quick to want to give him out of a redemption arc.
Speaker 2:I mean, yeah, Mark Mark Wahlberg was young when he almost, like it, killed that man and like he's still racist, like you know, in Mark Wahlberg.
Speaker 3:But there's like talk about him because I think he is someone that people forget about Mark Wahlberg's past and like there are two incidences he had when he was younger, like to hate crime related incidents. So I think people forget about that. You know Sean Penn was in the news. We forgot all about Sean.
Speaker 1:Penn? Wasn't he just in the news recently for making some very off base kind of quote which I am not remembering?
Speaker 3:I don't know why we still pay attention to that man like, why we like give him space, but yeah.
Speaker 1:I honestly I was just like is he still relevant? I thought he was like this is going to sound ages. I thought he was just old and chilling somewhere, like we don't need to hear from you anymore.
Speaker 2:But nowadays is the age where, when you're old, you get a huge platform.
Speaker 1:Yes, I suppose it's also. When you're like I've been a Republican for years, I feel like Sean Penn, you're right.
Speaker 3:Like he goes away and he's like I'm over here in like a canoe saving all the hurricane Katrina, and then, like he goes away for like five years and then he's like back again and you're like I forgot about you, like just where you were, you know. But again it was social media like bringing up all those things again. Like hey, remember when Sean Penn was married to Madonna and like I had to do a chair and beater, like remember that you know? So, yeah, he was back and his like face kept showing up in my Twitter feed. I was like, oh, sean Penn.
Speaker 1:You got to do one of those like block certain words yeah. So the like new cycle is over and you're like, okay, it's good to we can go back online now.
Speaker 3:It's safe. So, like any, any variations of Sean Penn.
Speaker 1:Yes, I mean one of the other things, one of the other things that I was really thinking about too, because you brought up Madonna. Madonna has had an interesting. I really want to go to her. Her tour that's happening. The tickets are very expensive, but I also kind of feel like like one quantity to expensive.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they're so expensive.
Speaker 3:My friend bought us tickets, so it's going to be so good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's going to be so good, yeah, yeah, I'm part of me is kind of like I should just do it.
Speaker 2:You should just do it.
Speaker 1:I also feel like this is the like. I don't feel like Madonna's got much left in her like this, is it?
Speaker 2:Well, she just did poppers for the first time.
Speaker 1:I was literally just yes, I didn't have a go, so it was on a Tick tock, tick tock live.
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 1:And she's doing an interview and isn't it with that person who pretends?
Speaker 2:Oh, why can't I remember her name? She pretends to be like a conservative woman.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And but yes, she anyways. She is being asked a question and she reaches off screen and bring back a popper bottle and like sniffs and like. Her interview is like, did you just do poppers? She's like, yeah, it's the first time I've ever done them. Oh and it's like girl.
Speaker 3:I know Like, yeah, like last tour, I pulling out all the stops, like to.
Speaker 2:You got to loosen up.
Speaker 1:You got to let loose, yeah, yeah, I mean it's interesting because Madonna, we've known her for years and years and years as like she's always been pushing boundaries, she's always been doing stuff that's a little like salacious.
Speaker 2:I mean the coffee table, like the.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was just called sex, wasn't?
Speaker 3:it. It was just the book was sex. I remember when I came out. I remember how scandalous that was.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, my God Same. I remember when I was like, probably in my teens, and by teens, like 1213. I could be doing math incorrectly, but not my forte the erotica album. I was always like, oh, I like this. It's bad, I was probably going through puberty as well, but it was a good album.
Speaker 2:I remember I was kept well away from the TV and radio during that era.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, yeah, your family was very concerned. I was gonna say conservative, but no, they were they voted on DP for most of my life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they were very Baptist.
Speaker 1:That's the word I was looking for.
Speaker 3:I didn't like the sex book when it came out, like didn't come wrapped in plastic, like I want to say there was.
Speaker 1:You couldn't there was a film like. There was a, I seem to remember was reflective right.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So one reminded me the other day too, and I'm not sure how this came up. I would love to know what we were talking about that it led to this that vanilla ices in that book isn't vanilla ice, like I created vanilla ice. Okay, we have to fact check this, but I'm pretty sure that he vanilla ice appears in the sex book, or there are. We have to fact. Are we fact checking live?
Speaker 3:Yes we're fact checking. I mentioned like learn more about that after my friend brought it up, but I'm pretty sure because they dated and I'm pretty sure there were pictures of that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So, oh, my God.
Speaker 3:I'm fine. What is vanilla ice is in the book, right?
Speaker 2:now we Campbell Isabella, isabella rustling. A big data came and vanilla ice the rapper turned Ninja Turtle.
Speaker 1:Hype man.
Speaker 3:I feel, like it's like a fun fact about Madonna's sex book, that vanilla just just you know, casual vanilla ice you want tasteful nudes of. There's an ice, ice, baby jokes, and we're in there.
Speaker 1:But I can't have enough coffee to make it, but yeah, oh my God.
Speaker 3:Well, I'm so happy that you shared that with us, because I had no idea Everyone should just spend the rest of the evening just going down and internet kind of rabbit hole of researching the relationship between vanilla ice and six degrees of vanilla of.
Speaker 1:The other person we're thinking about like bad boys and sort of you know, people who were sort of miss miss perceived during their time and I know you have an essay about this in the book is Amy Winehouse, and then also Pete Doherty, and just the two side by, like it felt like because wasn't Amy Winehouse banned from the Grammys at some point?
Speaker 3:There was. She had to, the year that she was nominated for a whole bunch of Grammys like six Grammys, I think. Yeah, she had to appear from a soundscape stage in London. Yes, I didn't attend the awards in LA because of past. I think her visa hadn't been improved in time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, that was. I knew there was something like that.
Speaker 3:And then people thought that she shouldn't have been nominated for Grammys because of her addiction issues and that it was setting like a bad example by rewarding her with Grammys, which never would yeah, would never would have happened for a man. But yeah, there was all this outrage and you know, people, she shouldn't. You know, we shouldn't be rewarding her by behavior with Grammys.
Speaker 2:I'm dumb, fat, I'm like did they miss the 90s?
Speaker 3:Or, like you know here, you know Louis CK have a Grammy, or you know, like all you know, there's there's a lot of problematic men with with Grammys. So he's just the most, one of the most recent examples, I think.
Speaker 2:I didn't realize he got a Grammy.
Speaker 3:Pardon me.
Speaker 2:I didn't realize he got a Grammy for like comedy or something. Oh, my God.
Speaker 3:But they really had like a problem with with giving giving anyone house awards because yeah, they felt you know it's said to bad message, which is so ridiculous.
Speaker 1:It is very ridiculous because I think, even when you look back at Amy and just her career and what was happening, it felt like more people were interested in her success and how they could make money off of her, as opposed to, you know, actually providing her with the help and care that she needed, like people who are struggling with addiction issues, like they have to want to help themselves through and through. However, if you have an entire team working with you, that just feels like enabling, so yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's the God. I'm just going back through the catalog and I'm like, oh my God, like we just watched the Brittany Murphy documentary when it came out. And it was just like oh my God, how did we miss this?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I feel like so often, because of how things are framed in the news, in media, what have you? We tend to overlook the underlying issues. Do you think that there's a form of media literacy that people need to have? I think probably.
Speaker 3:it's gotten a lot worse in current years, but when we're engaging with that type of content and how we're sort of taking it in, so I mean, the Brittany Murphy one was kind of weird to watch because I kind of you know, when it sort of came out I thought it was going to be all about kind of retelling her story and repositioning her legacy and kind of giving her this redemption opportunity. And then it was kind of very tabloid about you know. I mean, obviously we are interested in kind of you know, how did she die? But you know kind of about the relationship with her husband and her mother and all that kind of.
Speaker 3:I think, kind of I felt took over it and I kind of felt that at the end I didn't really particularly know Brittany Murphy maybe any better than I did going into it and I thought there was a lot of chance to talk about things.
Speaker 3:In the same way, I watched the Anna Nicole Smith one on Netflix and I felt kind of the same way that it was steering into this kind of really tabloid gossipy and I kind of came away feeling kind of gross watching it and thinking this was really an opportunity to tell the story in a different way and reframe Anna Nicole Smith and it kind of failed, I think.
Speaker 1:And I think we said the same thing after we watched the Anna Nicole Smith. Yeah, it was sad. It was really sad, you didn't have any like.
Speaker 2:I had no contacts.
Speaker 1:yeah, so you had never like engaged with, or you weren't like your parents wouldn't let you watch any content like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I had to write an essay to be able to watch the Ghostbusters, so like no.
Speaker 1:But for me, like I vividly remember Anna Nicole Smith and to like when I watched that, I was like this is such a disservice, like they're not showcasing the struggles that she was having or if they are talking about them, they're doing it in a very exploitative way. Do you know what documentary was done? Very well, and I can tell you why it was done well the Pamela Anderson documentary on Netflix. Was it being Pamela? Yes something like that. So good, so she produced it right.
Speaker 1:Her two sons did. That's who it was. Like that feel when your two sons are involved and that's like what happens. It feels like a love letter to your mom.
Speaker 3:And I think that's what these should be in some way. You know, and I think you know you've brought up like a great point about who's telling the story. I think is how we end up with. You know her sons and she was involved. You know Pamela Anderson was involved in it as well.
Speaker 3:So it does have this kind of tribute love letter, whereas, you know, I think maybe if Brittany Murphy and Anna Nicole Smith had been involved in telling their stories, maybe Anna Nicole Smith would have come away, as I really felt the Netflix thing. I was like we get it, she's a gold digger Netflix, like back off, like they really like it was like we get it, like you know, and I think that's an important thing about like who is who is telling these stories and who is setting up the legacies.
Speaker 1:It reminds me. I don't know if you've watched it, but it's depth. I think it's depth versus herd on Netflix as well, and I got I think there's three or four episodes. I got an episode and a half in and I was just like we're really like we're really trying to platform Amber, like Amber heard, as being, you know, the aggressor in this situation. I was like, listen, I'm I'm sure that they've both did terrible things to each other. That, like you don't have to convince me of that, but this doc is not doing anybody any service.
Speaker 2:I remember you were like I'm going to watch it and I was like I have no interest in this, and that was a media cycle that I was like again had to select a very specific keywords to tune out of. So I don't want to hear people's hot takes about Amber heard.
Speaker 3:Does that mean you're not having the guy in the Deadpool mask on the podcast anytime? Soon to talk about the guy from his YouTube channel. I watched it and I was. I was so depressed after watching it, like I stuck it out, but it was so gross to watch and like, if you want to, you know see a playbook of how to silence a woman. You know, there it is. You know how to discredit a woman. It's right there in three episodes.
Speaker 3:I'm completely the guy in the Deadpool mask who, like I, don't even know what that was about.
Speaker 1:I was like why are we platforming these people? Like of all the people on the internet who had takes about this, we're giving this guy a platform.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and it was just, it was. So. You know, I'm not sure what I expected going into it. You know objectivity is maybe the wrong word, but I certainly didn't expect it to be so pro-depth, like. I was like this is like come on, like and by the end and I was going to watch it again for research, for something I was writing, and I'm like I just can't, like, I can't sit there and watch this.
Speaker 1:You're like, I've seen it, I don't. I don't need to like do that to myself again.
Speaker 3:And people that made so much money. You know doing these kind of like. You know I'm a I'm a lawyer, or I'm pretending to be a lawyer, and I have all these thoughts on deaf versus heard and most of them are about how great Johnny Depp is and you know people in like Captain Jack Sparrow face paint and like legs as capes and like it was a cool thing, yeah.
Speaker 2:It was a rough time on TikTok.
Speaker 1:It was a rough time on the internet.
Speaker 3:Period. It really was. It really was. I want. I made the mistake of of posting something that was anti Johnny Depp on Twitter and his fans are immobilized units and they came for me hardcore.
Speaker 1:I was going to say that, like the Johnny Depp, like collective on Twitter the death heads. Yeah, what was it called?
Speaker 3:Death heads.
Speaker 2:I didn't actually know.
Speaker 3:You just you, just you, just you, just you, just you, just you just you, just you know the.
Speaker 1:I was like. These people are like the beachy army. You like, don't even like put use a hashtag. They're just like, they're just listening and attacking.
Speaker 3:And I would like I would block them because I just like I don't want you in my feet. And then they're like see, we're right, she can't handle our juice. She's blocking us. And I'm like I'm blocking you because you're super toxic and I don't really want to deal with you.
Speaker 2:Depp shits.
Speaker 3:Depp shits. I love it, yeah, I love it.
Speaker 1:You were so excited yeah, I was. You were like oh my God, I'm so sick, I'm so sick, I'm so excited.
Speaker 3:But that Netflix series, like you know, I almost feel like it's part of this kind of backlash we're seeing in in in some ways, you know. But I urge people, you know I I felt pretty proud of myself for sticking it through all three kind of episodes because it's a tough, tough watch.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I got an episode half in and I was like I'm good, I've seen enough, I don't need like to your point. Amber heard went through so much Like during that trial and I think didn't Johnny Depp have the same where team like, as someone who has been acquitted of some some terrible thing to do with women, I'm just like she never, she never had a chance.
Speaker 2:She did not stand a chance.
Speaker 1:Whether or not she wanted like yeah, she, she didn't.
Speaker 3:And you know, in the, in the actual court and the note in the, you know the what do they call it? Court of public opinion, whatever that is, I think he did have like someone who had been had defended someone else.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Someone else.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's, it's. I can't think of it right now, um, but yeah, it's. Just. When you're dealing with these kind of things, I feel like the internet also makes it much more amplified, which is kind of what we were talking about at the beginning as well, um, and it could be used for positive or negative, yeah. So I think a great instance of this uh is the me too movement, where women were actually able to share their stories across social media and they were able to sort of like, utilize these hashtags and build a movement, uh, to sort of say enough is enough. We're putting an end to all of this. But it feels like so often women in in celebrity of any kind, they don't get to control that narrative. It's not often that that happens.
Speaker 3:It's true, and I think you know, we saw, you know with me too, and thumbs up, you know, women speaking up, women sharing their stories, and it kind of, you know, led to this cultural reckoning of how pop culture has mistreated women. And then we kind of saw this repositioning of legacies and retelling of stories and, you know, I think it can be really great. And then we see kind of the flip side of it in in herd and dep, or right after Amber herd and Johnny depth was all the Olivia wild stuff, um, which was also awful to witness on social media. So there's the yeah.
Speaker 1:I feel like Social media is a blessing in a curse.
Speaker 2:You know the place the best of people and the worst of people.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it really is. It's like you know it's. I was describing it to someone. I'm like it's such a toxic trash fire. But then I'm right there being like post that clip of Ashton Kutcher Come on, you know, from punked being inappropriate about Hillary Duff posted, posted. I want to see it, you know so.
Speaker 1:Well it's, it's. Similarly, when everything was happening with Vanderpump rules and Scandible every minute, it was just like yes, drag him yeah.
Speaker 3:I mean I, I got my popcorn out for that one.
Speaker 1:I mean, I'm going to say something controversial, yet brave, and I think that we have also talked about it. Do I think Rachel was innocent in that situation? No. However, do I think that she was taken advantage of by someone who maybe has some narcissistic tendencies and she is not like I mean, this is a man in his four.
Speaker 2:This is a grown ass man. Yeah, she's like in her. What early twenties?
Speaker 1:Yeah, like I remember I thought she was autistic and he were like no as an autistic person.
Speaker 2:I don't, I'm not sure, I don't claim her.
Speaker 3:But it and I for a while I became obsessed and maybe this is not like a good thing to admit publicly, but like I became obsessed with watching people like posting clips of him performing his music. I'm like I'm like who's going to the concerts and watching this man perform? Like I just became like Scandival. Really I lost like hours of my life to that and really I was like who is going and seeing this man perform and like Tom Sadeval in the most extras. Yeah, and like, oh, like.
Speaker 2:Touching public.
Speaker 3:Oh my.
Speaker 1:God, you see like so River had never watched when Scandival happened. River had never watched any Vanderpump rules.
Speaker 2:So we I, a friend of mine was like I'm watching Vanderpump rules for the first time. I was like I've never seen it. He was like the first season is on Amazon Prime, go watch it. Like.
Speaker 1:And it's amazing and I was like we have a hey you subscription. Yeah, we don't need to watch it on Amazon Prime.
Speaker 2:We started it like the week before I went for surgery at the beginning of August and we finished it like In September. Yeah, we finished in September Like it was.
Speaker 1:So it kind of like took a like. I've watched the entire thing, so for me it was very interesting to go back and rewatch, for sure From the beginning to now, and also how some people Specific like Katie, for example she was always positioned as this kind of like shitty individual who didn't care about Tom was kind of being you know, it's my way or no way. And then you go back and rewatch it with the lens of everything that's happened and you're like, oh, maybe she's being like, she's bringing this up in a way that isn't great, but also she's making points.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like you go, I've watched the whole. Like I mean, I will not publicly admit how many times I've watched the series. My like comfort watches. But yeah, it's true Like Katie was positioned as this kind of like always harping at Tom Schwartz like this mean girl, and then you go back and you're like Tom Schwartz is like such a lazy man and like he's the worst and like you kind of feel sympathetic for Katie by the end. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:You have opinions about Lala.
Speaker 2:I do have opinions about Lala, but I think she makes for excellent TV.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:She has her opinions. She certainly steamrolls people.
Speaker 3:She does.
Speaker 2:And I took. I think that Billy Lee was bad trans representation, but I do think that her entire thing with Billy Lee was real bad.
Speaker 3:It was really bad. Yeah, that was. That was really hard to watch. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think too, like Lala, sometimes, to your point, she makes excellent TV Because she steamrolls. She's like oh, it's my, I am correct, you are wrong. And then she gets proven that she's not actually right and she's like yeah, that's true. She'll say sorry, which is more than what most people will do. Yeah.
Speaker 2:The whole, the whole Randall thing was a. It was a humble pie.
Speaker 3:Yeah, she could admit when she's wrong. So I think in later seasons.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And that's what we call growth, growth.
Speaker 3:But I think you know I went back after scandival. I went back and watched. You can see Tom Sandoval and I call her Rachel. I refuse to call her.
Speaker 2:Raquel.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but them started. You could kind of see it when you go back and watch it and it's kind of obvious, I think maybe because we now know. But yeah, that man is like I'm curious to see and she's not back, I think in the new season.
Speaker 2:But he is.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I mean, people don't like him and he's being ostracized. I can't imagine why. Okay, whatever, tom.
Speaker 1:Well, I think he was doing promo for Special Forces, this like Fox show that he was on, and then he said Rachel was being like thirsty or desperate because she like blocked him and then posted like this is self-care. She did something like this which I was like good, it feels like this retreat that you did for your mental health. Some of it is sticking. Nature is healing. Nature is healing, but his response of being like she is thirsty and desperate.
Speaker 3:He is like the thirstiest man, him dressing up in all those costumes for like every event that they have like. Look at me in my birthday costume Like he is so thirsty.
Speaker 2:I'm a special birthday boy named Tom Sandoval.
Speaker 3:He's always like let's have a costume party and he's like you know, yeah, and everyone else is like, oh, I have to dress up because no one wants us to.
Speaker 1:But I think there was one episode it might have even been from the last season where he was like I wouldn't go there without my nails done. I need to have my nails done.
Speaker 2:Oh, it was because it was in season nine. It was because Tom Sandoval was late for doing something. It was like a business meeting with one of their investors, because he was getting him anker and he's like I'm not walking around town with busted nails, it's like, and Tom Schwartz called them out on it.
Speaker 3:I'm like my bar has been in construction for like 19 months and there's no longer ever being finished, but it's super important that my nails look fresh. I'm never thirsty, dude. Priorities am I right?
Speaker 1:I think one of the things that I am sort of like wondering because, like you know sorry I'm saying like a lot, but third wave feminism was like a whole thing and I'm like, are we going to be entering like a fourth wave feminism soon and how is that going to affect how we sort of like look at and discuss women in public, whether it be like a politician Because I just thought about this like AOC gets ragged on all the time, like in the term ragged on True.
Speaker 1:Thank you for calling me out in real time. I appreciate that.
Speaker 3:I mean, I feel like I feel like Depp and Herd has like infiltrated my brain and I can't properly. I don't know. That's a great question.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I just think that, like for Gen Z and even Gen Alpha, who are, you know, navigating, like they know so much more about social media than we do. But I'm always so curious because of the way media is framed. In a way, social media is sort of like people intake information. Now it's kind of like to let's use Depp and Herd as an example Are these young? Are these young impressionable minds just seeing you know a hashtag and they're like that's how you should treat all women, that's the way it should be. It's like how, like when I, when I was in my twenties and thirties, it was like we'd go to all these like things where it's like fuck this, we're fighting against this. We burned some bras, you know.
Speaker 2:I feel like the pivotal moment is probably going to be the hashtag me to movements yeah, sparking that up yeah, that was a very large shift in the like. Oh no, not only are we, we're not victims, we're survivors and we're not just going to be doing symbolic gestures anymore. We're holding people accountable.
Speaker 3:And keeping that. Keeping that going. I mean I hear people when I talk to people, and talking to people sort of in the context of the people are like you know, they talk about me too, kind of in the past, you know tense and I'm like still very much going on, can.
Speaker 1:I get it.
Speaker 3:And like it doesn't have to have an expiry date, like a carton of milk, you know. But you know me too happen. You know, why did you need to write this book? Isn't, isn't everything better for women now? And I'm like, oh, I wish, or like you know, I was talking about writing about Britney Spears and someone was like, oh, but you know, like we had two documentaries about Britney Spears, like aren't we better with Britney now? Like haven't we fixed the Britney problem? You know, like we could just kind of cross Britney off the list. Like who needs redemption? Who needs redemption? Yeah, number 10, we're serving you, you know. But like not thinking about these things like they're done or they have like a specific start and end date.
Speaker 3:I think is really important.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, it's like grief, it's like this this thing is you're going to be do. It's a process, it's not. You don't get over it, you just exist.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that. I mean we didn't. We'll say this about Britney, because her her memoir is coming out on the same day as your book.
Speaker 3:Tomorrow is Britney day.
Speaker 1:Yeah, tomorrow is Britney day, but she planned that right.
Speaker 2:She was like I'm going to steal your Lisa's thunder.
Speaker 3:I think she, I think she did, I think she's like you know what? I'm just Whittington Hill. He's going to just sell all these books. I better get in there Instead of the beginning, still waiting for the message for the journal.
Speaker 1:We're manifesting it right here with Britney. I just some of the stuff that's come out, and I know we talked about Justin already, but even like the fact that she had to have an abortion because she was pregnant with Justin's baby. And now you look back at some of the videos that she made and you're like, oh, the messaging on this hits a bit different.
Speaker 2:I mean, you never did not age. Well yeah.
Speaker 3:All I was going to say are the messages on on his videos hit a bit differently too. Yeah, like you know, I remember that you know time when they broke up and very much that narrative was that you know, you know he was the victim and and she was the villain and she had broken his heart and and you know, you know people often think it was only kind of you know the tabloid press that were kind of you know promoting that, but it was mainstream media, like it was. You know this was the narrative that was out there and Cry Me a River. Yeah, like this kind of revenge, male, revenge, fantasy video. So I am so like one of the things I am happy about with her book is that we finally get to like squash that narrative and, you know, cry me a river, and I know it's a cheesy thing to say, but I'm excited for Brittany to speak for Brittany.
Speaker 1:Yeah, me too. Yeah, I feel like we've been waiting for it for so long and I'm glad that she's okay. Also, sam, her her now, like are they estranged? Are they actually divorced? Were they even actually married? I don't even know, but fuck Sam.
Speaker 2:Oh, where she took the kids, the money and his hair. Was that the same?
Speaker 1:Yes, Okay, so that was like Brittany took Sam Sam's money, hair and kids.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, certainly it was her money.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was her money but you know she took that, but I think to Brittany like it's the you know she finally has the freedom to tell her story after you know decades of other people telling her story, but also like there's this kind of added layer of she was under a conservatorship, you know where she can write a check or drive a car or, you know, do all these other things and you know, let alone tell her life story. So she is finally free and like I have the day off and I'm gonna, you know, shut my phone off and read her book and make it all in Now, before, before we transition into our game.
Speaker 1:I know I did a little intro of your book, but like talk to me about the inspiration behind the book, your process. Talk to us about the book a little bit.
Speaker 3:Sure, I mean the book is. You know it's a collection of essays that I have been working on. You know some. You know some have been previously published in some form in other places.
Speaker 3:But sort of what started me thinking about, you know, sort of the gender bias in pop culture was that, you know, during the 90s I'm Jen X and during the 90s I had kind of turned defending Courtney Love into an art form and was, you know, sometimes asked to leave parties for arguing with men about Courtney Love. In the late 90s and she is someone that I've always defended and I for many, many years had pitched an essay about Courtney Love and kind of an unpacking of Courtney Love and how she deserves kind of redemption and kind of a critical analysis. And after pitching it many, many places it was published in long reads and that sort of got the ball rolling and got me thinking about all these kind of issues and writing about them. And then I started to think about it more sort of with me too in times up and kind of how we were kind of you know this sort of cultural reckoning that I mentioned about how pop culture mistreated women and started to kind of think about how far we've come and how far we still have to go. And so that is it.
Speaker 3:Girls interrupted yes, out this week.
Speaker 1:Yay.
Speaker 3:I'm so excited.
Speaker 1:Two days after Britney.
Speaker 3:So you have time to finish, like reading Britney's book.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And you can read mine, which has like a ton of Britney coverage in it. So they work together.
Speaker 1:Perfect. It's like the combination duo that you should purchase. Yeah, and like a lot of.
Speaker 3:Courtney Love and a lot of Lindsay Lohan, winona Ryder someone I also have been defending.
Speaker 1:I remember I had a free Winona shirt when they first came out.
Speaker 3:I still wear mine all the time.
Speaker 2:Courtney Love was a huge one for me because growing up, as you know, everyone thinking I was a boy, that was like everyone was so procured and like, like, oh yeah, she killed Kurt Cobain and it's like, and recently like I think it was Jennifer's body that like turned me on to whole. I'm like holy shit, this is great.
Speaker 3:People you know would, yeah, like blame Courtney for Kurt's death or for, you know, his drug addiction. And she was really like you know I would get into these arguments with man about Courtney Love and you know I would be like please don't come to the party if you're not talking about Courtney Love. Lisa, like okay, I just want to go on.
Speaker 1:I think Courtney is one of the kind of bringing it back. Courtney is one of the original people who spoke out against her. Yes, yes, yes, there's the most private clip on YouTube.
Speaker 3:And then there's the one where you know where she's like am I going to get you know, am I going to get sued for libel? And then she's like you know, don't go to a hotel room alone with Harvey Weinstein, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:And nobody took her seriously. People don't take Courtney seriously, I think she's a tough.
Speaker 1:No, yeah, so never forget.
Speaker 3:Never forget, she's a whole sense of her in the book. You will read the book. You'll have a hard time forgetting Courtney Love.
Speaker 1:Do you want to? Do you want to tell us about the game?
Speaker 2:Yeah, this game was actually your idea.
Speaker 1:It was my idea.
Speaker 2:I was like I'm having a hard time thinking about this and Amal was like you should go back through like, like the in touch and us weeklies and find like headlines Okay, and we have to guess who the headline is about. So I've got like five or six of them.
Speaker 3:We have to guess who they're writing about, who the headline is.
Speaker 2:I'll give you a year and usually a month, so that you can kind of think back to like, oh, who was the media cycle? Back then they're all incredibly problematic and we will probably talk about them, but yeah, I'm ready. Are you ready? So first one you can't guess, because this is my pitch Paid to get fat. Already a startling 205 pounds pregnant, blank is accused of scheming to make millions off her massive weight game, and this was in, I believe, September of 2013.
Speaker 3:Oh my God, I want to. I'm thinking about weight, and I always think the tablets were so hard on Jessica Simpson about, is it? It's not Jessica.
Speaker 1:Simpson. That's who I thought as well. It's Kim Kardashian.
Speaker 3:It's Kim Kardashian. It's.
Speaker 2:Kim Kardashian.
Speaker 3:Wow, so 2013,. She was pregnant and they're a survivor of like.
Speaker 1:So I think that's the year and we'll have to fact check this. But when she went to the Met Gala with Kanye for the first time and she wore that dress that kind of it was like a pattern and people said it looked like a couch. Do you know what I'm talking about?
Speaker 3:I do yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think people at that period in her pregnancy she was very heavy, so I'm assuming it's from that, but she was pregnant. Yeah, she was pregnant yeah. Like I'm not saying clearly, I'm not being like well, she was fat, so you know.
Speaker 2:And sorry, but 205 pounds for like, how like anyways. I always think whenever weight and tablets.
Speaker 3:I always just remember how hard they were on Jessica Simpson. I remember Jessica Simpson, yes and that's what Lady Gaga? Oh, that was a Lady Gaga.
Speaker 2:That was like she didn't have a flat stomach that one year and they were like oh, I think so yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Tablets are oh okay, Wait, Wait Okay.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Divorce announcement. Why she's dumping blank after seven years and this is September of 2015.
Speaker 3:September of 2015. Who was getting divorced after seven years? Yeah, wasn't Jennifer Aniston, was it?
Speaker 2:No, it wasn't, but that was around that time.
Speaker 1:I was gonna say Fergie, but-.
Speaker 3:Oh, Fergie's the one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the reason I included this? Because the headline isn't scandalous it's Beyonce.
Speaker 3:Beyonce oh.
Speaker 2:It was like wait, but she's not divorced.
Speaker 1:Is that she's not divorced.
Speaker 2:Oh, maybe that was right around the salonge and the elevator. Oh, the elevator, yeah yeah.
Speaker 3:Okay, yeah. I was seeing Jennifer Aniston and Justin Therone maybe around that time.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, yes, yes, but yeah, beyonce.
Speaker 3:She went in the elevator. That's a good one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, we've got Lies, a fair and her doomed marriage, why she'll never date men again or have kids. And this was August of 2020.
Speaker 3:Is it Jennifer Aniston? It is not I'm just gonna guess Jennifer Aniston I don't have kids once.
Speaker 1:Okay, so read it one more time Lies.
Speaker 2:Lies a fair and her doomed marriage why she'll never date men again or have kids.
Speaker 1:I have no idea.
Speaker 3:I have no idea either.
Speaker 2:Yeah, smiley Cyrus.
Speaker 1:Oh, oh, oh, that I mean that trash.
Speaker 3:I forget she was married.
Speaker 2:I did too.
Speaker 3:I was like yeah, I always forget she was married to one of those Hemsworthy people.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like for me, miley is just solidly in like the queer canon.
Speaker 2:Yeah so. I'm like there I'm on the Katy Perry now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't care, no, we don't play, katy. I don't play Katy, but this is sorry I'm going off track. Have you seen or heard about Miley Cyrus apparently being in a cult?
Speaker 3:I have not heard about that.
Speaker 2:I saw something on TikTok about that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was on TikTok, of course, like in a cult, currently in a cult- yes, so apparently because she just released her new album, she did no sort of anything for it and she's been hanging around with these people that are in this cult and so people think that they just, sort of like, took her in and then she released a song that I don't think was on the album but it's about. She released it on the day that Billy, Billy Lee and or sorry, Billy Ray, not Billy Lee, so it was like Billy Ray World's colliding.
Speaker 3:world's colliding.
Speaker 1:When he got remarried and so people think it was a message for him. But basically she went from like performing all the time being out in public to like being nowhere.
Speaker 3:So she must be in a cult. Yeah, I mean watch for her in like the next Netflix cult document.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Like there's Miley Cyrus in the back. Of you know one of those not Miley.
Speaker 1:She's been through so much.
Speaker 3:She's been through so much, these are good. I like these. These are hard.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is what I included for your, for Emma, but how I blew $11 million, which was in September of 2010.
Speaker 1:Is that Lindsay Lohan?
Speaker 2:No, it is not.
Speaker 3:How I blew $11 million. Is it Paris Hilton?
Speaker 2:It's not. It is Teresa Judeis.
Speaker 3:Oh Teresa, table spinning.
Speaker 1:Oh, she has a living million dollars. Well, no, she clearly does?
Speaker 2:She had a living million dollars.
Speaker 3:Was it in quotes? How I blew, like quote $11 million. I forgot that she, like her and Joe, were all over the tabloids at that time Like yeah.
Speaker 2:I was just shocked at like the like I'm like okay. I mean personally I could, I would be hard pressed to blow $11 million, but like when we look at you know a certain tech shit head that just blew? What $4,420 billion, or $42.69 billion?
Speaker 3:Stop in the bucket.
Speaker 2:What are you?
Speaker 3:talking about A lot of fabulosity for 11. Isn't that her thing? Fabulosity? It's that, teresa Judeis?
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay we've got one more.
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 2:Blank is sick and dangerous Drugs, violence and animal abuse, and this was September of 2021.
Speaker 3:Drugs and animal abuse.
Speaker 1:Doja Cat.
Speaker 2:No, good guess, oh, okay Okay drugs.
Speaker 3:It's not Katy Perry.
Speaker 2:It's not Also very good guess it's Britney Spears. Oh what I know. That's why I was so shocked. I was like wait.
Speaker 3:What's an animal abuse?
Speaker 2:2021. Oh, I did, haven't we decided she's been in through enough?
Speaker 1:Yeah, apparently not, and that was in.
Speaker 2:That was an extra, I think. Oh, it was either extra in touch and I was like, oh my God.
Speaker 1:Okay, it was like TMZ, I could see.
Speaker 2:No, yeah, no.
Speaker 1:Fucking TMZ. I'm TMZ.
Speaker 2:None of those came from TMZ.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, that's fascinating.
Speaker 3:Animal abuse so much.
Speaker 2:I know I was like I need to read this article. Wow Cause like.
Speaker 3:These were good, these were hard, but also it's so depressing that they could apply to like we thought they were multiple. Anyone Like for anyone you know, like Lindsey, katy Perry?
Speaker 1:Oh, I've read about Teresa Dutice, yeah, yes, fergie, and when everybody made fun of her on the internet, she was like oh, yes, I forgot about that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that was really such a big deal at the time.
Speaker 2:Yes, it's like they write headlines and then find who they can like, shoehorn into it and they just have to change a few words to make it fit.
Speaker 3:Like another woman. They're like, just like I don't know, take animal, it'll be a set, and put cocaine in and we'll, like you know, it'll be. Yeah.
Speaker 2:There was a lot of that too. I was like, oh, this is the same quote, yeah.
Speaker 1:It always is, isn't it?
Speaker 2:I think the only person that I saw that got any kind of like reasonable headlines was what's her name? I have no idea. Wheaties Merida the Kardashian.
Speaker 3:Caitlin.
Speaker 2:Jenner Caitlin Caitlin. She had positive headlines. She had positive headlines and a lot of the tabloids. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Wow, fascinating.
Speaker 2:I know.
Speaker 3:So we thought the tabloids were hard on Caitlin.
Speaker 2:Yeah, same, Maybe it was just the ones I wasn't looking at. I was looking at. They're like ooh, she seems like she's gonna get mad if there's anything transphobic there.
Speaker 1:I mean, I feel like Caitlin as problematic as Caitlin is now yeah, for a variety of different.
Speaker 2:We don't claim her, but.
Speaker 1:But I feel like at that moment in time there had been other like visibly trans people. But because it was who it was, caitlin did get kind of the brunt end of the stick, so to speak.
Speaker 2:Yeah, she.
Speaker 1:No one deserves to have shitty treatments.
Speaker 2:No, she definitely also had a lot of privilege throughout her transition.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Where she could just yeah for sure, Dip out of society for a little bit.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but Back on the cover of Vanity Fair.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, wasn't Caitlin naked or like doing some kind of?
Speaker 2:It was a very provocative.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I remember that's the end. I think so. Yeah, lisa, thank you so much.
Speaker 3:It's been so fun Like I really enjoyed it. Oh my God, thank you so much.
Speaker 1:I'm so happy that you had fun, because that's literally what we try, and yeah, it's great and fun to do it.
Speaker 3:You know, in my house it is Britney Spears Week, so I'm to have this kind of start. My poor cat, he's, you know Britney Spears Week, but yeah, so this was such a great start to Britney Spears Week. So thank you so much.
Speaker 1:Oh my God, I could think of no other way. Before we let you go, tell the listeners where they can find you on the internet and where they could purchase your book.
Speaker 3:Yes, so Girls Interrupted is out on Thursday, october 26th. You can order it from my publisher, vehicle Press, or find it at your favorite independent bookstore.
Speaker 1:Nice, and where can we find you?
Speaker 3:on the internet, you can find me on Twitter at nerdy girly or Lisa W Hill on Instagram. Amazing, and we will make sure to link to both of those in the show notes Widely and I'm gonna go now and like Google vanilla ice and that's what I'm gonna do for the rest of the night.
Speaker 1:I feel like that's a form of self care, so I love that for you.
Speaker 2:We call it feelin' icy.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you feelin' icy Something.
Speaker 1:That was the episode. That was the episode. I absolutely loved the game.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, I've been thinking about it and I'm like how could I have done this better? Multiple choice was the way to do it.
Speaker 1:Just read it like a millionaire, the fact that you some of those headlines are current.
Speaker 2:Oh, they're all current, but they're all from like. You can take those and put them like 13 years ago, 20 years ago, yeah, yeah, nothing has changed. Nothing has changed. We hate women, we hate, not we.
Speaker 1:Not us. I mean, you know the society, the society is old, they hate women.
Speaker 2:We yeah.
Speaker 1:We do not stand.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:Oh, man and Lisa, I'm so excited to read your book. I was going to say next audiobook. Yeah, next audiobook is going to be Lisa's, as I mentioned earlier. Be recorded with Lisa before her book and Brittany's memoir are released, so now you can actually go out and get both of them Go get it, yeah, go buy it, go buy it.
Speaker 1:Like that's the whole point. I think, besides Brittany and besides Paris, there's been so many women throughout pop culture history that have been malaligned and torn down. Oh yeah, yeah, so good episode, good episode, and we had a guest. And we had a guest. Where can the people find us? Okay, well, you can find us at wwwhylobrowpodcom. That's wwwhylobrowpodcom. That's our website. We post everything there. But if you're not a person who goes to websites because you- You're over the age of-.
Speaker 1:Yeah, then you can find us on all social networks, at wwwhylobrowpodcom. That's TikTok, that's Instagram, that's threads. That's the site formerly known as Twitter, uh-huh.
Speaker 2:It's not checked at all.
Speaker 1:No, we like. Honestly, the two places that we upload to are Instagram and TikTok, because we're elder millennials.
Speaker 2:We're elder millennials. We're hashtag Chucky.
Speaker 1:Listen, I know who I am. Yeah, it's fine, and you know, if you like what you hear, please go to the link in our bio or go to Apple Music or Spotify or whatever, and we have a sub review.
Speaker 2:Why did your voice go like that when you said Apple Music?
Speaker 1:Apple Music. Apple Music Ha ha ha ha, I'm just trying to live my best, belly girl self.
Speaker 2:Slay.
Speaker 1:See, we're already going off the rails.
Speaker 2:Yeah, ok, let's end this before we like accidentally trolley problem our podcast. Yeah, let's not OK.
Speaker 1:We'll be back in two weeks, it's just no guest. No guest, just us. But the week after that, oh god, now I'm getting the. No, no, no OK bye. Bye, ha ha, ha, yeah, oh, yeah, yeah, oh, oh, oh, yeah, you're right. Oh yeah, that's the way I feel at home. Oh, hold that such luxury. Yes, ha, g cutting. Yeah, oh, wait a minute, because yeah.