030 - Suicide by Cop - I Interview the Suspect Shot 3x by Oxnard CA PD

Welcome to the DEC podcast.  I want to warn you that the subject matter in this podcast is for Mature Audiences and there may be some parts that are disturbing and Viewer Discretion is advised.  

 I’m going to be sharing a story with you today that is incredibly compelling.  It’s about a 17-year-old girl and an Oxnard Police Officer – and I’m blessed to know both of them.  In this episode, you’re going to have the privilege of listening to the conversation I had while speaking with one of them.

 On May 3rd, 2019, while in a dirt field behind a business in an commercial district, Oxnard CA Police Officer Timothy Roberts shot a 17-year-old girl three times.  He did that because, even though he was attempting De-Escalation, she had her mind made up that she wanted to die.  Not long after he arrived on scene, she charged at him with a knife forcing him to use deadly force.

Roberts, then a 4-year veteran of the Oxnard Police Department, was the first officer on scene and found the teen standing in the parking lot. After the girl brandished a six-inch kitchen knife, Roberts commanded her to drop it while he backed away.

 A second officer arrived and was in the process of retrieving a less-lethal "beanbag" shotgun from his vehicle when the teen charged at Roberts. Officer Roberts fired three rounds, striking the girl all 3 times. The girl fell to the ground and the two officers immediately began providing first aid until paramedics arrived.

The incident was captured in full by Officer Roberts' body-worn camera.  In the body-camera footage, the teen can be heard apologizing after she was shot, a guilt that would continue to grow during her stay at the hospital.

Doctors initially weren't sure she would survive due to bleeding in her liver. They later warned she would not be able to walk again from a second bullet wound in her leg.

The teen recalled the guilt that haunted her in the hospital, even affecting her dreams. She decided to make amends when she was discharged in June that year.

The teen and the officer met in person for the first time on Jan. 23, 2020, and have remained in contact ever since. 

 This young lady said she wants to share the lessons she learned to promote mental health awareness.  She said, "In many of these situations, the person in my situation does not live.  I feel like it's my duty, as someone who lived, to promote mental health awareness."

She went on to say, "Always be willing to reach out to someone who might be struggling.  Sure, you may be frustrated with them for feeling that way, but if you give them even the least bit of understanding and support, it's a gamechanger."

If you're feeling despondent, the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline, for both English and Spanish speakers, can be reached at 988 or suicide prevention lifeline.org

Keep listening, there’s a lot to unpack in today’s show!

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Transcript

Caller: 0:07

In the entire body cam, you hear me saying, Oh, why are you helping me? I was thinking, you know, I'm a criminal, I did this, I approached him with a knife and for him to, you know, save my life right after I pushed him into doing something that he obviously did not want to do, then beginning life saving measures really spoke to me because at the time, I didn't think anyone would care enough to, you know, take care of me or do anything for me. I was so deep in the mindset that people just existed to hurt me. When I wanted

Kerry Mensior: 1:02

Welcome to the De-Escalation Conversations Podcast. I want to warn you right up front that the subject matter in this episode is for mature audiences. And there may be some parts that are disturbing. So Viewer discretion is advised. I'm gonna be sharing a story with you today that is really quite incredibly compelling. It's about a 17 year old girl and an Oxnard California police officer, and I'm blessed to know both of them. In this episode, you're going to have the privilege of listening to the conversation I had while speaking with one of them. On May 3 2019, while in a dirt field behind a business in a commercial district, Oxnard, California police officer Timothy Roberts shot the 17 year old girl three times. He did that because even though he was attempting de escalation, she had her mind made up that she wanted to die. Not long after he arrived on scene, she charged at him with a knife forcing him to use deadly force. The girl ultimately survived the shooting a self described suicide by cop attempt and today, she says that day saved her life. Now the shooting happened just before 7am on May 3 2019. In the 400 block of North rose Avenue. The girl was reported by a 911 callers walking around with a knife and looking quote unquote disturbed. Roberts was a four year veteran of the Oxnard police department at the time and he was the first officer on scene and he found the teen standing in a parking lot in a dirt field of that parking lot and after the girl brandished a six inch long kitchen knife. Roberts commanded her to drop it while he was backing away. A second officer arrived and was in the process of retrieving a less lethal beanbag shotgun from his vehicle and the team charged at Roberts, Officer Roberts fired three rounds striking the girl all three times the girl fell to the ground and the two officers immediately began providing first aid until paramedics arrived. The incident was captured in full by Officer Roberts body worn camera that footage was edited down and released publicly by the Oxnard police department a week after the shooting. A teens name has not been released by the Oxnard police department because she was a minor when the incident occurred. I am also maintaining that same confidentiality even to this day. Officer Robert said that he had taken part in a training simulation weeks prior involving a similar situation of a despondent person with a knife. And although he was able to draw from that experience, he said he didn't know the real life incident was an attempted suicide until afterwards. He said it's impossible to know that in the moment, she didn't give any indication of that with what she was saying. In the body camera footage, the team can be heard apologizing, after she was shot a guilt that would continue to grow during her stay in the hospital. Doctors initially weren't sure she would survive due to bleeding and her liver. She later was told that she might not be able to walk again from a second bullet wound in her leg. The team recalled the guilt that haunted her in the hospital even affecting her dreams. She decided she wanted to make amends when she was discharged in June that year. She said it was frustrating that I couldn't move. It was frustrating that I lived. It was frustrating that I couldn't talk to Officer Roberts. She was later able to recover full use of her leg which is a really good thing. Public Defender rod Codman was assigned to the teens criminal case. When he first met her in the hospital. He heard that she wanted to connect with Roberts as he developed a relationship with the young woman and her social worker as well as receiving input from her therapist. Read Codman said he came to think a meeting with a police officer would be a positive step. He said I believed it would not only be in her express interest but her best interest for this to be her goal and her objective. The team and Officer Roberts met in person for the first time on January 23 2020. Several months after the incident, they've remained in contact ever since. At a probation hearing for the incident on July 8, Asa Roberts testified in favor of domestic dismissing the case to assist her in her recovery. And the judge granted that this young lady said she has ambitions for the future and wants to share the lessons that she learned to promote mental health awareness. She said in many of these situations, the person in my situation does not live. I feel like it's my duty as someone who lived to promote mental health awareness. She went on to say, always be willing to reach out to someone who might be struggling. Sure, you may be frustrated with him for feeling that way. But if you give them even the least bit of understanding and support,

Caller: 5:56

it's a game changer. If you

Kerry Mensior: 5:59

are feeling despondent the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline for both English and Spanish speakers can be reached at 988 or their website suicide prevention lifeline.org. So this is what's coming next. First, I'm going to show you the footage from Officer Robert body camp, along with Oxnard police chief's statement, immediately after, you're going to have the unique opportunity to hear from someone who survived being shot three times by a police officer and lift now is helping to make people safer by sharing what it means from a mental health perspective. Keep listening, because there's a lot to unpack in today's show.

Unknown: 6:44

Kenny Stand by 14 police stations low My name is Scott Whitney and I'm the Chief of Police for the city of Oxnard. We're sharing with you a video summary of an officer involved shooting that occurred on May 3 2019. The purpose of the video is to share information with our community about what happened that morning. The briefing will include video footage from the officers body worn camera one of the downsides to sharing body worn camera footage is the loss of privacy for those involved. The female in this incident is a juvenile so we have blurred out her face and redacted some of the audio which identifies her. The video you're about to see as disturbing Viewer discretion is advised. During the morning hours of May 3 2019. Our dispatch center received multiple calls of a woman with a knife. It was reported that she seemed disturbed and that she was walking around and waving a knife. The caller also indicated that the female is possibly armed with a gun, the caller recontacted dispatch. Three additional times in during these calls stated that the female was getting increasingly worse and that she was screaming and threatening people. 31 by 14 Vice suffixes serve disturbing in the empty lot to the rear of Carl's Jr. 480 480 northfields Avenue to Hispanic female 18 years wearing a red shirt blue shorts shaped completely by episode 50 Earlier she was in possession of a knife no longer Oxnard police officer Timothy Roberts arrived on scene first and made verbal contact with a female in the dirt field behind the business career please Yes, I have someone call in saying you're waving a knife around don't reach for it but sit right here on the curb the reason I'm sitting on the curb why what happens if I reach Put the knife down station 314 way excellent backup with a knife and she's ready for North American Avenue 21 points are covering unit references on lesson one. Drop it. back enough. westbound she's still armed with a knife back I'm let's get the knife okay we're gonna start off the one year gonna help you okay she's got three you're gonna be okay all right we want to leave the night for security

Oxnard Police Chief Scott Whitney: 13:08

our officers routinely respond to calls for service where they place themselves in harm's way. They do everything they can to peacefully resolve these incidents. Our police department also has very high standards, we will complete a thorough investigation into this incident. While we've shared a lot of information with you, there's still more work to be done. Our investigation is ongoing.

Kerry Mensior: 13:30

Welcome to the de escalation conversations Podcast. Today, we have really, really special guests with us. Most of the time, the people that are on this podcast are first responders, not the people that we serve. And you've already heard the introduction to this very, very special guest that we have. And I had the pleasure of meeting her in person at a conference in San Diego. And

Caller: 14:02

I was

Kerry Mensior: 14:05

was given the blessing. And it's really is to be able to listen to her speak for a short amount of time and then chat with her and her energy is so amazingly positive and good. It's she just clearly comes through as one of those people that you could spend hours with getting to know and enjoy every single minute. So we in order to protect her identity, you'll see that she's been referred to as caller as in the body cam footage in the breakdown footage of the incident. So out of respect for protecting her identity, we're going to refer to her as caller throughout this interview. So caller Welcome to the show. Thank you for being here. I appreciate your time. We're honored by not just you, sharing your time with us but also your insight so it'd be okay with you be open to it if you take just a step back, and the listeners have heard slash scene, breakdown video, and they've heard a little bit of your background, but could you kind of take us through the things that led up to that very fateful encounter that day, what was happening for you going on in your life, things that led up, you know, as far back as, as necessary, maybe, you know, maybe only a few days, maybe a few years, I'll let you make that call.

Caller: 15:37

So years leading up to this incident, I've struggled on and off with suicidal ideation and attempts. This was one of my most serious, of course, and a contributing factor, I would say it was just, I felt that a the world would be better off without me, I was really entrenched in this mindset, and the world was better off without me. And I was just better off not being around. And as to what led up to those events, it was a mix of that and just being so hopeless and and things getting better. That I kind of resorted to this extreme measure.

Kerry Mensior: 16:27

Would you be open to sharing it even if it's just a surface level? What were kind of the things that were said or happened in your life that led you to thinking that the world was better off without you?

Caller: 16:46

So, ever since I was a child, I've dealt with the weight. Sorry. I'm trying to like formulate it correctly.

Kerry Mensior: 16:55

It's okay, take your time.

Caller: 16:59

Yeah, I'm just trying to think of how I can word it so the audience can get it too. dealt a lot with the trauma, I had a lot of trauma. And wait, no, that's not. Prior to this incident, I was dealing a lot with trauma. And this trauma has stemmed from maybe since I was around 10 years old. And this was continuous traumatic events. And all of these events like came together when I was around 17 years old, and just kind of formed this worldview of either people were not good. People weren't worthy of trusting and that the world was just better off without me, because it felt like everyone was just out to hurt me.

Kerry Mensior: 17:54

Did you feel that you were kind of the focus of bad things happening?

Caller: 17:59

Yeah.

Kerry Mensior: 18:01

I must have been really, really hard to deal with that day after day after day.

Caller: 18:09

Yeah, in the past, you know, whenever I would try to attempt, you know, suicide, it was always, you know, something where I was alone, or, you know, out somewhere. And when with this one, you know, it was really odd, because, you know, I kind of pulled someone else into it. And that kind of scared me, because usually, you know, I try to be as like, selfless as possible, I try to think about my family. You know, I try to be in a place where they won't find me and stuff like this. But, you know, when it came to that specific day, on May 3 2019, I was just so over it, I, I just wanted a way out. And that was my way out. I mean, I was really knowledgeable of how a law enforcement work and how their training worked. So, you know, for someone as desperate as I was, I kind of thought, what if I provoked a police officer into doing this action? And at first, I didn't think I would go through with it, you know, I was sitting on it for days, weeks, months, I think. And over and over again, it was you're not going to do that, that you're going to harm someone else in this process. You know, this was a thing that was constantly in my head. But as time progressed, it got so overwhelming that I felt like I had to do that because it was the only way I felt that I would would have truly just died than in there.

Kerry Mensior: 19:45

And how old were you on that day?

Caller: 19:48

I was 17 years old.

Kerry Mensior: 19:50

And was there anything that day that was different than the prior days, weeks, months that you'd been thinking about it was or something Nery, some trigger that happened that day that kind of pushed you to put your plan into action.

Caller: 20:09

There may have been, but nothing I can quite recall. I do know that the month of April is pretty hard for me, because, you know, a lot of the traumatic events happened to me in that month, like previous times in my life. And usually the month of May, is pretty overwhelming, because it's after I'm remembering all these bad things. And it was so early in May. So I assume it was due to that. But I can't really quite say.

Kerry Mensior: 20:39

And when you when you went out to that empty lot, had you made your mind up what you were going to do? Or were you still kind of on the edge about doing that?

Caller: 20:54

It was both it was kind of like there was two people in my head at the same time, because there was one side of me that was just thinking, Am I really going to do this? Am I really going to pull someone into this, you know, selfish action. And there was this other side of me where it was just I was trying to justify myself constantly, it was me going, Oh, well, you know, the police shoot people all the time, you know, this is routine for them. You know, and this is how I used to think of my local police department, I used to think that every one of them have at least been in use of force before, so I didn't really think it would be a big deal to them. Although I knew that was contrary to the reality, I was trying really hard to make myself believe that so I would feel less terrible about the action I was pursuing.

Kerry Mensior: 21:44

Were there any relationships in your life at that time, that contributed to you making that decision that day?

Caller: 21:58

Not that I can recount necessarily. I mean, I just know that for prior to that event, you know, I kind of just locked myself in my room and I would refuse to go out and do anything I would not sleep, I wouldn't eat. And I was just in there all the time. And my family, they would try to talk to me and I would not listen to them. That's all I can really remember, you know, prior to that event.

Kerry Mensior: 22:25

Were you on any kind of medications or drugs or alcohol or anything like that?

Caller: 22:33

Surprisingly, not, I was actually off medications for maybe a month. And I went off them because I was just frustrated with them not working. And I just thought that they made things worse. And after the incident, I actually I turned 18 During my treatments, and I went off on all of them entirely. And I'm actually med free to this very day.

Kerry Mensior: 23:05

Wow, very cool. Very cool. Do you one thing that struck me about something that you said was after you were shot, the officer began life saving measures right away. And that had an impact on you. Can you tell me about that?

Caller: 23:36

In a moment, you know, I was just kind of, you know, ready to go. And when he was doing that. It just kind of threw me off because I was thinking, you know, I'm a criminal. I did this I approached him with a knife and for him to you know, save my life right after I pushed him into doing something that he obviously did not want to do it. I don't know. It's spoke to me that uh, in the sense that hmm, dang it. Sorry. Okay. It It spoke to me in the sense that a no sorry I am beginning life saving measures really spoke to me because at the time I didn't think anyone would care enough to you know, take care of me or do anything for me. I was so deep in the mindset that people just existed to hurt me. So for him to do that a complete stranger who I literally kind of hurt to turn around and try to save my life. really threw me off in the entire body cam you hear me saying oh, why are you helping me? I don't deserve it and I I still sometimes struggle you know, with what happened that day. You know, sometimes I'll think Why did he do that? But it definitely spoke to me and showed me that people are willing are good, and that they're willing to forgive, even in the most horrible circumstances.

Kerry Mensior: 25:13

Sounds like that compassion that he showed really had an impact on you. Yes. What was it? At the at the moment? Just in case, the, our listeners didn't catch it. You had been slowly walking toward him and he was backing up. And then your behavior shifted? What was the trigger point where you decided to rush him?

Caller: 25:48

When he pulled out his firearm? Okay.

Kerry Mensior: 25:56

And was there anything about the other officers arriving on scene? That played a part in that? Oh, yeah,

Caller: 26:07

I I do recall Tim mentioning this in a podcast. So it's funny because he thinks it was me due to me seeing another officer, but I actually didn't catch that officer, it was pure tunnel vision, I was kind of only focusing on Tim because he's the one with his weapon out. The reason I kind of decided to watch him in that hot moment, was because I knew that if I kept stalling a decision that he would find some way to do me without you know, give giving into Gotcha. And, and as many other that if I gave up, that would happen to me. And I was so tired of, you know, that always happening to me. So that also played into why I rushed in because I knew that it would just continue the cycle of going to mental health treatment and hang out, and things just being the same, essentially.

Kerry Mensior: 27:21

Gotcha. And then last you right at the very beginning of when you were saying that, but we got we got the gist of it. So for our listeners, if you heard the color cut out, that's what that's what happened in a little internet connectivity issue. So when you were your shot, you are hit and if I remember correctly, and correct me if I'm wrong, you were hitting the right side of the chest, your abdomen and which leg

Caller: 27:51

it was my right leg.

Kerry Mensior: 27:53

Your right like and were on your leg where you hit

Caller: 27:58

on the upper thigh area.

Kerry Mensior: 28:01

Okay, show femoral arteries, there are a lot of danger. Critical points in all three of those areas. When you were hit, what was that like for you?

Caller: 28:17

It's surreal to like, think about because it happened so quickly. So when I look back, I can't really you know, recall it how it felt. But the what I can remember was it was just hot. I remember just felt like I got hit with something that was burning. That's as best as I could describe it. But emotionally I mean, it was just it was a weird mix because it was a mix of like whoa like he actually did it and then finally he did it.

Kerry Mensior: 28:57

And you remember much while he was providing the first aid and then the firefighters paramedics got there Do you remember much about the time they were on on the ground there are on your way to the hospital.

Caller: 29:12

So that one was actually quite a blur now that I whenever I tried to like remember that specific situation you know, I would have dreams about it constantly. And I I didn't know if it was real or not until I got to watch the whole body cam video. So I do recall just a lot of questions being asked I recall my name being Yes, but I was in so much physical pain and just mental pain. You know, I felt like I was dying right there. So, you know when they would ask me that I genuinely just lost all my memories and would tell them like oh, I don't know. I don't know what my name is. they would ask me my birthday and I was just I didn't know, I was kind of I was so out of it because I was in pain. And I was losing grip of what was going on right in front of me. I do remember just all of them fumbling around and like putting pressure on me to make sure I didn't bleed out. And they were talking to me, I'm pretty sure to prevent me from going into shock. Because it was a shock moment for sure.

Kerry Mensior: 30:32

So if a first responder is helping someone, as an example, who has been shot or some other traumatic injury, and they asked him questions, and the person says, I don't know, it might be because they genuinely don't know they can't access that information in their brain. Is that what I'm hearing you say? Yeah,

Caller: 30:53

it was definitely just an overload of all my senses. You know, I genuinely couldn't tell them. I didn't know what was going on.

Kerry Mensior: 31:04

Later on in the hospital, as you were recovering, how much time did you spend in the hospital? Because you you were injured very seriously.

Caller: 31:12

I spent two months in the hospital.

Kerry Mensior: 31:15

Wow. How many surgeries did you have during that time?

Caller: 31:19

I had three surgeries. Wow,

Kerry Mensior: 31:22

that's a significant toll on you and your body? What was what was that recovery time like for you with family showing up? And I'm sure you had some law enforcement investigators showing up and asking questions as well. can take us through that journey in the in the time that you were in the hospital for the two months.

Caller: 31:41

So the first two weeks were a blur? I don't remember any of them. I do remember little tidbits and you know, information my family would share with me. But there's nothing concrete from that time. All I remember in those moments was I was thinking about the officer. And a lot of people, you know, get so thrown off by it. But that's all we'd be thinking. I'd be thinking about, you know, i Oh, my gosh, I hurt this police officer. How I need to get right, you know? And give them closure. I don't know why I was so bent on it. But I was and I'm glad I was because it was what was right for that situation. Because it was a guilt. What was guilt? But it was also just care. I cared about him even though I did what I did. I still cared about what happened to him afterwards, you know.

Kerry Mensior: 32:47

And you had mentioned doing some research on what it's like to be involved from the officer's point of view involved in an officer involved shooting dinner. Yes. Tell me about that. How did you how did you do that? And what was that like for you?

Caller: 33:06

So I would just read these articles about like, police officers detailing their experiences after being in the shooting of that nature. And just like, a lot of them would talk about guilt of not being able to help someone or, you know, having to use force in that situation, you know, so the fact that I kind of did that to somebody really did not weigh on me very well. Well, I know he knew that I was like, it still immensely bothered me that I even put in through a situation where he might have felt that he was in danger.

Kerry Mensior: 33:48

And then ultimately, you you decided you wanted to be able to, to meet the officer in chat with him? How did that evolve? What was that process like?

Caller: 34:01

So, you know, my first weeks in the hospital, you know, after the first two that were blurry, you know, I really wanted to meet him that was this was that was something just in my head, I would constantly think I need to find out what his name is going through with him. I didn't remember what do you look like at all? So you know, kind of made my mission significantly harder. But first two weeks as no first month I was in the hospital I think by the third week. The third week they were actually going to discharge me because you know, I was already recovering fairly quickly. The only thing that extended my stay two months was the fact that I got a massive infection near my liver. My liver was the organ that was most injured and from this incident and But you know, it was funny because all these things were happening to me physically. But all I was worried about was making things right with this officer. My family, of course, was not very happy to hear that, you know, I was kind of worried more about him even though I was kind of I was the one just laying in the hospital bed kind of wasting away in a sense.

Kerry Mensior: 35:27

And how did you ultimately meet him?

Caller: 35:31

It's a really interesting story. So the way I ended up meeting him was the, after I got out of treatment entirely. I went to quickly see if the Oxnard police had any public events, because, you know, usually, at those public events, the, the chiefs will show up, and that's who I wanted to talk to. So I go to one of these events, I was already freaking out, because I couldn't bear the idea of going outside after what happened, I struggled a lot with anxiety of going outside. And after that situation happened, I couldn't stand the idea. So I had to, you know, push against that fear. And then it was, you know, I had to go talk to somebody talk to one of these people that probably, in my mind, I thought these people despise me for what I did, and, you know, no fault to them if they did, but you know, I was really hopeful that maybe be willing to hear me out. And I show up to one of these events, and I go up to one of the patrol officers not thinking much of it. And, you know, I kind of look at his nametag, and I read Roberts. And I found out his name when I was in the hospital. But I was like, Oh, this isn't Rob V. Roberts. This is another one. That's what I was thinking in my head. And then I look at his a little initial, you know, right before his last name, and I noticed there was a T. In in the report, you know, it said his name was Timothy Roberts. So I kind of looked at him and I asked him, Hey, what's your what's your name? And he's like, Tim Roberts? And I'm like, no, no, what's your real name? And then he tells me, Oh, it's Timothy Roberts. Why? And then I was just like, we, it's, it's you. And, and I was just in shock. Because, again, I did not remember at all what his face look like. All I remember was that he was. So I kind of remembered. So the fact that I was standing in front of them was kind of crazy. And I just kind of quickly told him, are you okay? I'm really happy to see you. And he was I know, he, he was nervous. I mean, he didn't admit it to me at first, but then he told me later on, he was like, Yeah, I thought you were gonna yell at me or something. And I asked him, I just asked him quickly, like some miscellaneous information. I just told him, Oh, do you know? The Chiefs here? If he's gonna show up? Do you know, do you have this information? Like, yeah, he has this and he was just telling me about that. Then eventually, you know, he asked me, I told them, I'm not right. I'm walking, right. I'm in front of you. So I'm alright. I don't quite remember everything. I think Tim would be able to tell you better. But that's what I really remember. I just remember kind of being happy to see him. And I know that threw him off. For sure.

Kerry Mensior: 38:40

Yeah, there's not too many people that that we use deadly force on the come up and ask us if we're okay. You. You definitely are one in 10 million, not just one in a million. So, after you met with him, and you started to continue on with your life, since you know, I gonna very loosely say recovery from the hospital because of course, there's a lot of recovery that happens after you get discharged from the hospital. What has your journey been like, since the time that you met Tim and and kind of continued to get on with your life?

Caller: 39:26

Yeah, well, when I first got out, I didn't quite know what to do. I mean, I'm still also at a point where I just don't quite know what to do. But I've improved when I first got out is just, I don't know what to do with life. And you know, my whole purpose. Now messed up, but you know, when I first started out, I didn't know what to do. I was 17 and I still didn't graduate. High school, I was actually supposed to graduate the year of 2019. So the fact that I didn't, you know, kind of discouraged me from going school, I slacked off from going to school for a good while. Until, oh, wait, no, no, no, sorry. It's because I'm thinking of like, so many details that I could tell. And I needed to tell them in order. So it makes sense. So. So after that, like little awkward meeting I had with him later that year, I think it was in September of that year, same year. I then arranged like a more formal, like, less awkward, not in public meeting with him at the police station. And we got to meet until maybe January 2020. And, you know, from there, we had a more formal meeting where I just kind of, you know, poured my heart out to this guy and told him, you know, that I was genuinely sorry. And that I really hope he, he forgives me for what I did, and that I kind of let him know. I'm just here to support you now. And his police chiefs were there it was, yeah, he's two chiefs are there and I think it was the district attorney. And, at the time, my public defender, because right when I left the hospital, I got a little slips thing, you know, the charges and whatnot. So it was a kind of delicate meeting that had to be arranged by, you know, the chiefs on his and my public defender. But after that meeting, you know, everyone was just kind of thrown off by like, how well it went. I'm pretty sure all these people were expecting something like, me getting upset at something, but you know, I kind of wanted to show them Look, I'm not as unstable as I, as it may have come off. Initially, our acted. And I read Tim an apology, and I just kind of had a normal conversation. It's still kind of weird to think about, because, you know, I was in the room with these people who probably had so many other better things to do. But they entertain my request of wanting to meet him at the station. And from that, you know, I continued meeting with them throughout the year 2020. I think, for my 2020 Tim, along with his chief, they passed by my my house and you know, did a little birthday parade during, during COVID. You know, they were doing a little parades with the cars. Yeah, and, you know, the continuous care that Tim and the other you know, people at the police department continued to show me really just blossomed into this way bigger thing. You know, I'm pretty sure if you go up to any Oxnard police officer today, like, if you were to go there now. And tell them, Hey, do you know this person? They tell you? Oh, yeah, I know, that person. I saw her the other day. He talks to me all the time. You know, at first, you know, I thought it was gonna be a really open and shut type of deal. But I ended up developing a relationship, like a really good friendship with the, with the police chiefs, and eventually the rest of the department. Because after you know, Tim visited me for my birthday, I continue talking to you know, other officers who were there. And in late 2019, or no, late 2020 I remember the chief asked me during a meet a little meeting we had he asked me, Are you still doing school? And I was not doing it. I was slacking. I mean, I would go you know, to not get a truancy. But surely I was not going. So when he told me that I just decided to start working in going at it again. And I eventually graduated high school in the year of 2022. Because I was so behind on credits, due to well the situation itself and just my struggles with mental health prior that, you know, I couldn't focus on anything, you know, I was just too in my own head to get out and do my work at school.

Kerry Mensior: 44:40

Go ahead.

Caller: 44:42

No, I'm just thinking of like a concrete timeline. I can give the listeners Yeah, I ended up graduating high school and, you know, they went of course, to my ceremony and it's surreal to think about because I was grad Writing from a high school that was not in the city of Oxnard, it was a neighboring city. So the fact that you know, they had it, they took their day off to go see me graduate and walk the stage. Still, it speaks to me immensely, and it definitely encourages me to continue doing better. And after my graduation, I went to this program in the state of California called the California Conservation Corps. And their work consists of, you know, trail building. They do firefighting. But the crew I worked in was trail building and trail maintenance. And I did that for two months, until I decided to return due to some health concerns with my mother. But, uh, yeah, I'd like to think my life has improved significantly, I don't think I would be as ambitious as I am right now, if it weren't for their continued support, and care. So I feel really, really grateful. You know, for Tim, just being so patient with me, even though I know I've been overwhelmed sometimes. Not a lot. But um, you know, I'm very grateful for I don't want to say I'm grateful for this situation. But I'm grateful of the people who are involved because I feel that if it wasn't Tim, I don't think I may have been I would have been as lucky. But I want to encourage you know, any law enforcement maybe listening to this to be a Tim for somebody else.

Kerry Mensior: 46:39

That's powerful advice. Powerful ask. You sounds like you've just had a lot of compassion thrown your way.

Caller: 46:51

Yeah, I I'm incredibly lucky to have all that. Yeah, never in a million years would I have thought oh, there's gonna be someone you know, caring about you and caring about what you do with your life and wanting you to do better. So, you know, to have that this. I don't know, just to have what I wished for basically, all my life is just crazy. And, you know, I mean, I don't mean to sound dismissive, doing, you know, my family or anybody else. But you know, when you struggle with these things, you know, it's crazy to find someone who's willing to reassure you. Now, wait, now, that sounds bad. But, uh huh. Sorry, I'm trying to think of how we were we reworded. So I don't mean to say that my family or any of my past friends have not supported me throughout my time in life. But, you know, having these people who literally have no obligation to me, like none, absolutely none, you know, come out and be present for me really encourages me to continue to do better and work harder and be willing to give back to others. You know, I hope with all these conversations I have, you know, I can encourage either someone on the law enforcement side to, you know, be a little more compassionate, or someone on the civilian side to be a little more understanding to law enforcement officers and all of their struggles to

Kerry Mensior: 48:31

what's what's life like for you today? What do you what are you struggling with? What are your biggest challenges right now today?

Caller: 48:41

My biggest challenge is self doubt. That is one I still kind of gripe with to this day. You know, I sometimes when I'm doing something or something seems too good to be true. Oops, sorry about that. Sorry, forgetful family.

Kerry Mensior: 49:09

You're totally fine. It's not a problem.

Caller: 49:12

But as I was saying, I got thrown off when we talking about,

Kerry Mensior: 49:19

we're talking about the challenges that you have today, the struggles that you have today. You talked about self doubt.

Caller: 49:26

Yeah, I struggle with a lot of self doubt. And just, you know, I sometimes feel that what I have right now is like, I'm too, I'm not good enough for it. You know, sometimes when I look back at how my situation unfolded, I'll feel a lot of guilt that, you know, I essentially got lucky. Well, a lot of people didn't get as lucky as I did. It's kind of a survivor's guilt. Maybe I'm not sure how you would word it. And I deal with a lot of self doubt because, you know, sometimes I feel that I'm not worthy of certain things going as well as they are are. And I'm just always afraid of disappointing people. So if self doubt really plays into that, so if I doubt something will do well, I will not do it. And it kind of holds me back a lot. You know, if I, I'm trying to think of a little basic example, if someone tells me oh, you should try that, I will not do it. If I know I'm not gonna instantly succeeded. And I know, it's a really unrealistic mindset to have, because, of course, nobody's just instantly good at some things they do. But you know, to me, I find it so embarrassing to not do things right instantly. And the idea of, you know, disappointing, so many people is just weighs on me so heavily, I feel that I have to constantly justify to myself that I'm kind of worth the, you know, the life, I still have the second chance I've been granted, you know, I guess that's a struggle for me, like, you know, just kind of reminding myself that I'm worthy of the second chance I got and, you know, believing in myself that even despite failures, people are still gonna love me and not, you know, instantly, you know, look, look down upon me, because I failed.

Kerry Mensior: 51:33

was great that you said that, because my next question was going to be, what are the tools that you use to get through those struggles. And, and you already talked about those. And that's those are, those are some really great tools for just reminding yourself that you are worthy of that second chance, you are worthy of the compassion that complete strangers have shown to you in it in a situation where it is unusual to have that compassion shown to you. And I, I will say that, having spent just a short amount of time with you, because we haven't known each other, but since last week, just the short amount of time I spent with your, your, your demeanor, how you show up in this world, it's special, it really is. And the things that have happened for you. Since this, since the shooting, I think really goes to when you draw those things that that help that support that compassion, that care, without asking anything from you in return. I think you as a person draw that to you because of the good person that you are. That's what I've seen in you.

Caller: 52:58

Thank you, it really means a lot to be told that

Kerry Mensior: 53:02

you're welcome. Is there? Is there any? Let me let me give some framework and background to to my next question. As we kind of wrap things up, we we haven't I haven't shared with you. But in my 30 years in law enforcement, I was involved in two officer involved shootings, both of which were suicide by cop. And the the circumstances for each one are completely the dynamics were completely different, both in how they began, how long they lasted, the first one was over in just a very, very short amount of time. And the other one lasted almost an hour because it was a standoff. And in that going through the process of of being in those use of force incidents, taking two lives. I can say that for Tim to be able to have the pleasure of meeting you is a is a huge thing but for people that are in my situation where I would never have the opportunity to have the meetings and the communication and and the bond that you and Tim have. Is there anything that you would say to people in my situation that had to deal with a suicide by cop? Some some bit of advice or thought that you, you as someone on the opposite end of the gun from the law enforcement officer might be able to share with them.

Caller: 55:10

I mean, the only thing I could really say is it's not blame yourself, you know, I feel that a lot of people in those incidents, you know, have a tendency to blame themselves for the way things unfolded. But ultimately, you know, it was the choice of the person on the other side, and I know, that sounds a little strong coming from me, but, you know, I feel that a sometimes a lot of officers kind of unnecessarily will blame themselves for things that how they unfolded, but ultimately, the decision of the person on the other side, in my case, you know, I kind of accepted what was going to happen in that moment. And, you know, I kind of selfishly was not thinking about Tim, in that moment, until, you know, I fell down and the reality situation hit me. And I definitely encourage anyone who has been in those situations to, you know, reach out to their peers and talk to talk about their, their struggles and be open about, you know, how they feel in regards to that situation, no matter how irrational it may seem, you know, a lot of irrational feelings will come from a situation like that, that is completely normal, considering it is a traumatic event for both parties. And all I can really say is, for someone who's on the law enforcement side of those situations is I just encourage you heavily to reach out to your peers and talk about it, because keeping it inside of, it's just gonna make things worse. And eventually, you know, it can manifest in ways where you will harm yourself or others. And, you know, we want less than that. We don't want that cycle of pain to be perpetuated.

Kerry Mensior: 57:11

So let me flip that question just a little bit. It was one of the things I do now, in addition to running the de escalation Association, is I'm a crisis specialist on two different suicide hotlines. One is called cop line is just for law enforcement officers. And the other one is for the public, in a major city in the US. So I, every week, I take crisis calls on a regular basis, from someone who decided to end their life, is there anything that you would share with someone who's starting to have that same feeling of the world would be a better place without me? And I just things are just too overwhelming for me? Is there? Is there anything, any bit of advice that you would give that person that's thinking those things?

Caller: 58:16

So after the incident happened, you know, I was still sometimes struggle, you know, with, you know, the idea that I was still kind of alive. And, you know, I, all this guilt, just kind of weighing on me about what I did, you know, I felt like, I was just kind of prolonging, you know, something that was inevitable. And what something I would do to help myself cope was just, I always find like, little motivations here. And there were there. For me, it was my, my dog. And I know, it sounds really silly, but, you know, these little silly things that you would focus on to give you motivation and eventually turn into bigger, more positive things that, you know, almost become endless, you know, with me, it was just, I was focusing on my dog. And then it became, I got closer to my sister, my sister then eventually became a motivation for me to do better in life than it became my mother, you know, my mother and I also got significantly closer after what happened. And, you know, all the trials and tribulations of everything that happened afterwards. And then it became, you know, the police department, you know, after I got no form all these really amazing friendships with you know, and I feel that I'm trying to think of how to, like, end it good. But, uh, I guess some advice I could give is this, you know, continue to put yourself out there. I mean, I, you know, as dark as it sounds, I mean, you already want to die anyway. I mean, you already feel so hopeless like what's the what's the harm and the putting yourself out there and just talking to other people, not necessarily about your pain, but just finding something that, you know, just makes you excited for me, again, it was walking my dog. That's what I would wake up for, you know, I would think, you know, how messed up is it that I left my dog here. And then it was eventually, almost a visit that I leave my sister and my mother here. And then, you know, it goes on and on. I don't know how to really formulate it per se, but you know, try to make yourself I don't know, try to you're already feeling this way. I'm trying to think of a good way to word it. But, um, I guess just be. I mean, you're already in the state of mind where you think nothing's good. So it's like, take advantage of that. become fearless with that. I'm not sure how to word it.

Kerry Mensior: 1:00:59

Wow. No, you I think you worded it perfectly. It you said it a couple different times. couple different ways. And I think it's going to, it's going to land for the right person that needed to hear you today. Talking about what you just talked about?

Caller: 1:01:15

And yeah, I always multiple ways.

Kerry Mensior: 1:01:19

Yeah. Yeah, that's powerful. That's, that's a great way to look at it. And and thank you for that insight. And thank you for your, your time today. As we as we wrap things up, is there. Is there anything left unsaid? Is there anything that you'd like to say before we go?

Caller: 1:01:39

Nothing I can necessarily think of I mean, all I can really say is? No, I can't think of anything.

Kerry Mensior: 1:01:51

All right. That's not a problem. So listeners to the deescalation conversations, podcast. If you have any need to ask caller any questions, you can certainly put them in the comments. We monitor the comments, we answer any questions that you have. And we will too, in order to protect her identity will act as an intermediary. And if you have some need to contact her, then what we would do is share your information with her and she makes the final decision. And no response is an answer. So don't be offended. Because it is it is an ask. And you always need to ask without expecting to be told yes. So thank you for again for being here with us. Thank you for your time, You honor us with your presence, your time and your your insights. So it's much appreciated. And I have no doubt that somewhere in the many things that we talked about today, it's going to land with a lot of different people. So again, I appreciate you being on the show with us.

Caller: 1:03:04

Thank you so much. I'm glad to help.

Kerry Mensior: 1:03:07

Yeah, you're you have such a good heart. So listeners, you can catch us every week, on Wednesday mornings at 9am. When the show is released, that's specific time. And you can also go to the idea website, which is the th e idea ide a dot world. It's not.com or.org dotnet. It's an it's an oddball one it's dot world. So the idea dot world, and we have a ton of free resources available to help you in conflict resolution conflict, dissolution, dissolving conflict, not just resolving how to calm an angry person in 90 seconds or less. We serve for communities, schools, K through 12, law enforcement, fire and medical services are happy to provide information we have an amazing newsletter. When you get to the website, the very first thing you're gonna see is the opportunity to click and join the newsletter and I'll give you a little bit a little bit of a secret. That newsletter actually is a customized newsletter. So whatever you're most interested in, as you click on those articles, you'll see more of those type of articles. So it's pretty cool newsletter program that we have set up. So please visit the idea dot world and reach out to us if you have any needs for training, especially in the K through 12. Schools we're dealing with solving misbehavior in the classroom so kids can learn reducing discipline referrals, suspensions and expulsions and just completely closing down the school to prison pipeline. It's a big push for our nonprofit organization. Thanks for listening. We'll catch you on the next episode. Bye for now until the next episode. Stay safe. I hope you found a lot of great value in this app. So did the de escalation conversations podcast. Please be sure to go to our website the idea dot world th e ID e a dot world. On that website, just click on the link that resonates with you most if you're K through 12 educator if you're a firefighter, medical services, law enforcement, flight attendants, whatever industry you're in, we have specialized training for you. So check that training out because literally it can save your life. It can save your relationship, it can save your career. So check out the idea, that world and I look forward to seeing you soon. Take care