034 - Hunters and Howlers - Threat Assessment and Management with Dr. Steve Albrecht

In 1994, Dr. Steve Albrecht co-wrote one of the first business books on workplace violence. He interviewed a double murderer in prison for the book. 

Since then, he has trained thousands of government, healthcare, library, and private-sector employees in workplace violence awareness, prevention, and response. 

He helps K-12 schools and colleges and universities to create Threat Assessment Teams to address school violence threats. He has written 26 books on HR, security, leadership, and criminal justice topics.

🎙️ Exciting News! We just recorded an amazing episode for the De-Escalation Conversations Podcast with the incredible Dr. Steve Albrecht! 

 🎙️ We delved into the fascinating world of road rage, workplace violence prevention, and much more! Here are 3 key takeaways from our conversation:

 1️⃣    Anger Mastery: Dr. Albrecht emphasized the importance of mastering our anger, rather than just managing it. Understanding the triggers and stressors that lead to road rage, workplace violence, or confrontational situations is crucial for effective de-escalation. 

2️⃣    The Power of Empathy: Recognizing subtle signals in body language, empathizing with individuals going through struggles, and seeing them as human beings can make a significant difference in diffusing tense situations. Empathy is a powerful tool for creating a safer and more inclusive environment. 

3️⃣    See Something – Say Something: We discussed the vital role that bystanders play in identifying potential threats. Whether it's reporting suspicious behavior, leaks of information, or instances of sexual harassment, speaking up and reporting can help prevent tragic incidents. Trust your instincts and ensure a secure environment. 

 Stay tuned for the release of this enlightening episode! 

 And don't forget to check out our website for valuable resources on communication, conflict resolution, and De-Escalation training. Let's make our world a safer place together! 

 💪🌍 #DeEscalationConversations #Podcast #WorkplaceViolencePrevention #RoadRage #Empathy #SafeEnvironments #CommunicationSkills #ConflictResolution #StaySafe

[00:02:48] Blessed to learn from experienced mentors in PD.

[00:05:30] School shootings by perpetrators have shifted dramatically. Previous incidents were mostly gang-related or retaliatory, but now it's students, ex-students, parents, and others targeting schools. This shift happened after Columbine, where perpetrators gained momentum and were revered online. It's disheartening to see this becoming an acceptable solution for disaffected, revenge-seeking individuals.

[00:09:12] Library staff trained in de-escalating conflicts, safety.

[00:11:08] Library visit ruined by showering transient, relocating.

[00:15:27] Threats often do not precede lethal actions.

[00:18:59] Guns from homes contribute to gun violence.

[00:20:46] Speak up, fill gaps, protect others.

[00:25:33] I'm known as the anti bomb threat guy

[00:28:54] Risks and consequences of escalating road rag

IDEA - the International De-Escalation Association, is dedicated to Saving Lives, Reputations, & Relationships through Conflict De-Escalation & Communication Training for Teachers, Parents, and Public Safety Providers.

Find more about
How to Calm an Angry Person in 90 Seconds or Less
Come visit us at the IDEA website (International De-Escalation Association):
https://TheIdea.World

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Transcript

0:03

You You know, you and I work in the in the behavior business, and so we say, well, does that make counterintuitive sense, or shouldn't we be worried about people who make threats? And the answer is yes. What he saw in his research is the people that are most likely to take lethal actions did not warn the target. Well, fast forward a little bit, the Secret Service did a a report called the Exceptional Case Study Project where they found the exact same thing. They looked at Lincoln to the modern day and what they they interviewed Serhan Serhan and John Lennon's killer and all these other guys that were still around, and they looked at all these old older cases and newer cases. What they said is, In a case where this person took lethal action against the target, they did not warn the target directly. And so, you know, you and I spend a lot of time convincing our clients and the people that we try to help That that sometimes what you should be worried about is not what you see or hear, but what you don't see or hear. San Diego, I want emergency. You need to come right away. There's a man with a gun and a gun. What's Proceeding emergency signals from Before charge, 11 All available units will code that way. Welcome to the Deescalation Conversations podcast. With me is doctor Steve Ullbrecht. In 1994, Steve cowrote one of the first Business books on workplace violence. He interviewed a double murderer in prison for the book. And since then he's trained thousands of government, Health care, library, and private sector employees in workplace violence awareness prevention and response. He helps K-twelve schools and colleges and universities to create threat assessment teams to address school violence threats. He's written 26 books on HR security leadership and criminal justice topics. Steve, welcome to the show. Gary, thanks for having me. Good to see you again. Good to see you. And you We're an officer with San Diego Police Department, which is how we got connected. And I still remember reading one of your first books And it helping me as a as a brand new police officer. So first of all, thank you for that because your wisdom, your guidance, your ability to capture things in writing in a way that it was an enjoyable book to read, and yet it was also stuff that Kept me safe and made me a better cop. So first of all, I wanna publicly thank you for that and and ask you this. How did you get How'd you go from that stuff into into branching out into the workplace violence and all the many different things that you do? Yeah. Thanks, Carrie. The the Things that I learned in the PD were from my tactical mentor, lieutenant John Morrison, and I think you have the same perspective I do, which is we were really blessed to come from a PD that was Training oriented, training focused, keeping people safe, and and providing good service to the community, but also keeping officers safe. You know, I I go around the country as you do, and you talk to cops, and they're not as far along as San Diego was even way back, you know, when we first started. So I feel blessed to have been Exposed to so many good tactical mentors and and people that helped me get my knowledge of what I was able to put into the books. In in 2000, things sort of shifted for me. I I left the PD in 2000 because, you know, Columbine happened in April 99, and and that really flipped the switch in this country, not only the police response, obviously, the the Tactical response, but just the awareness that this horrible event could happen that was planned and orchestrated by these 2 perpetrators, And and it really became the touchstone for workplace violence. When I wrote the ticking bombs book in 94, We had the postmaster general write the forward for the book because that's where these cases were happening, the post office. And so the phrase going postal was part of the vernacular, And and that's kind of what we thought about of the subject of mass attacks that were happening at post offices around the country. Escondido had 1 in in our our community in Royal Oak, Michigan, and all kinds of places. And then Columbine really turned this country on its ear. It it was it was, you know, kind of like a 911 sort of event where we stopped and looked and said, this is something that we're gonna have to prepare for. And I thought about that from a police perspective and also from a school administrator perspective, what can I do to help these school administrators? And then the thing just sort of started to gather an unfortunate momentum around these cases we're happening around the country after Columbine as you well know. So there had been school shootings Before Columbine. And one in San Diego, as a matter of fact. And, you know, we both know officers that were that were there that day and responded to that, and, you know, I know we both talked to them independently. But Why is it that Columbine was such a a a trigger? There seemed to be, like you said, like a 911 type event, but the number of school shootings Since Columbine, proportionally is so much greater in in let's say 20 years before Columbine, 20 years after, just Picking stupid parameters. There's a huge difference. Any thoughts on that? It's stunning to me when you consider, You know, you and I are close to the same age that these these kind of things didn't happen. Most of the school shootings that we would see in our lifetime, you know, in our time of our high school and childhood, We're gang related or some sort of retaliatory thing. And then now to see perpetrators, who are current students, ex students, Parents, people that have been kicked out of school, coming back and targeting the the school and the organization, the the teachers, the counselors, the administrators. It's just such a shock to to see that shift was was pretty instantaneous after Columbine, where these perpetrators sort of Gave people that were thinking about this in terms of planning and preparation kind of momentum. And I talked to a number of of Colleagues that that study the sort of the psychology of the school shooters about how these perpetrators in Columbine are deified, and There's fan pages for them on the dark web and on the regular web, and which is so discouraging to me. It's almost like there was a A switch that was flipped on our country where this became the acceptable solution for the kid who's disconnected and disaffected and and seeking revenge And and miserable and depressed and and sees no way out, but wants to be not famous. I mean, Lady Gaga's famous. You know, Taylor Swift's famous. They wanna be infamous. And that's pretty heavy stuff for a a collection of people. You know, the current shooting in in Maine as an example, that this guy is around the planet Within 15 minutes of who we identify by name, he's around the entire globe. That's pretty heavy stuff if you've lived a life of misery and depression and And and feeling bad about yourself, the only way to get recognized as existing on this planet is do something horrible and even more horrible than the previous guy. Yeah. That and and that you mentioned several other things. And as you know, we have a at IDEA, we have a identifying school shooters course. And, you know, many of those things that Just mentioned we we include further warning signs and what to look for. And so as you look at other workplace violence stuff beyond school shootings, you've worked With a lot of companies, a lot of k through 12 schools, colleges, and universities, libraries in particular, so how do you How did you start working for libraries? Because, you know, I picture a, you know, librarian with well, I have 2 thoughts. 1 is a crotchety old lady who's always going, shh, and then the other one is a Girl in the white blouse with big glasses. You know, those are 2 very, very different views of librarians in in this twisted mind, but How did you get started working in libraries? Because that just didn't seem like it'd be a a a workplace violence kind of thing. It just didn't seem like that, but tell me more. Sure. So I was sitting in my office in San Diego where I was, you know, back in that time around 2000. And by that time, the book had been out about 6 years, and I was doing a lot of school violence, workplace violence, Domestic violence crossing over from home to work. And I got a call from a a a grant funded training program in Sacramento for libraries, and they said, Can you help us with library security? And I said, what could possibly be going on in the library where you need a guy like me? And they said, can we send you around to some libraries in California where you can look at What the staff is dealing with? And I said sure. And so I went to the places you can usually expect there's some issues. San Francisco, Berkeley, San Jose, San Francisco, Los Angeles, San Diego, Riverside, and I went to about probably a dozen libraries, city and county libraries. And I saw homelessness, and I saw drug and alcohol use, and I saw a lot of mental health issues from some of the patrons. And really how they were taking out, And this is back to your work, is taking out some of their frustrations on the staff. And and this idea that staff is pretty good at operating a library, but not necessarily good at de Escalating drunk people, angry people, people that are poly problems, mental health, substance abuse, anger, violence, things like that. So, back in 2000, I created a training program, a half day program, which I took around to California for years, just library after library after library dealing with this issue. And then, the American Library Association, they're based in Chicago. They're the biggest library group there is. They said, Can you help us with some training and webinars and things like that? And I did. And then in in 20, 15, they did a book of mine called Library Security, which was sort of the first Big book on library safety and security. Homelessness, drug overdose, mental health issues, Dealing with people that have mental health issues where they're dangerous to themselves or others and and just Trying to empower staff and, you know, from your thoughts about library people most other folks think about they're kind of, you know, introverted, and they're not always very assertive. So I'm trying to empower them in the same programs that you're in the same material that you're teaching in your programs about de escalation and body language and risk factors and looking at Space and distance and the things that, you know, you would have to deal with in a public environment where you literally invite everybody in, and they're open 7 days a week. Yeah. And they they they don't turn anybody away. You know, it's funny you mentioned that because I flashed back Well, you were talking to, this was in the early nineties. Early nineties, like 90 maybe 93. And I had gone up 2. A friend of mine had a meeting up in in, I'm gonna say, the the Laguna Beach area. It it it was one of the beach community beach communities up in that area. Huntington Beach, Laguna Beach, they all kinda blend together. And while she was at this meeting, This is pre smartphone, you know, and so there was a local library there. I'm like, well, I'll go hang out at the local library Because it was it was it was an easy place for me to go. You know, you we didn't have a lot of Starbucks coffee shops at the time, and so I walk into this Library and go to use the restroom and there's a transient full on taking a shower in the bathroom. You can hear the water running and he comes out and he's just like slapped him while it looked like he jumped in the ocean. And the bathroom was just trash. I'm like, okay, well, I need to find another library to go to because this one is is done. And I was thinking, you know, All the little kids in there and, you know, typically the moms and the kids that are in the lie are the ones in the libraries, and they're having to deal with this jerk. And this was back Then, and I think the homeless issues that we're seeing in the in the cities are are certainly a lot worse, so it makes sense that you're And and pretty darn cool that you're able to to support the libraries in in that way. But what you're talking about is is what they call Thursday afternoon at the library. That that scenario you just described as a typical Monday about 2 at the library in a lot of lot of places. Well, that's Yeah. And it just I don't think most people think about that. I know I know until you said something about that and I flashed back to that incident. Because I don't typically go to hang out in libraries, but, you know, you know, sometimes you have to have to do it or or they do a community meeting there kinda thing. But Let me ask you this. I wanna shift gears just a little bit. You threw out a term to me that I I just love to pick your brain on. And it had to do with hunters. Tell me more about this whole whole concept of that. So I I belong to a a group of of a collection, a consortium of people that Care deeply about workplace violence and school violence and domestic violence and stalking and terrorism. It's called ATAP, the Association of Threat Assessment Professionals. ATAP was founded probably in the early nineties. I joined, I think, around 93, and it was really an offshoot of of LAPD. They something called the threat management unit. And the TMU, or the threat management unit for LAPD, was kind of divided into 2 categories. 1, they did Stalking cases and harassment cases against celebrities, so they would send detectives to the to the main movie theaters or movie studios, you know, Paramount and Warner Brothers and Universal and all that TV TV places, and they work on these stalking cases and and threat cases with celebrities. And then the other thing was they worked on, threats against LA city employees because they had had a shooting in a place called the Piper Technical Center where a LA employee went in and killed 5 or 6 people. So they were the first sort of Police department, to get behind the idea of of of threat management and threat assessment, they had, some cops partner with a psychiatrist who was the LAPD psychiatrist, a guy named Michael Zona, and out of that came ATAP. And so ATAP Began sort of on the West Coast and moved, obviously, to the East Coast right away, Secret Service, FBI, Marshals. They started a chapter in Washington DC, and we used to have conferences back and forth. Well, back in DC, was a guy named Ted Calhoun, and Ted Calhoun was the historian for the US marshals. Pretty good gig. He he wrote books about the history of the United States marshals, and which is one of the oldest law enforcement agencies in the United States. I think they started in 17/89 or something like that. And so Ted Calhoun looked at a 200 year studies, like 17/89 to almost 1993, people that wanted to assassinate federal judges, that's the marshals protect in the in the courthouse. And what he figured out was lots of guys howled. I'm gonna kill the judge. I'm gonna burn down the building. I'm gonna I'm gonna shoot your wife. I'm gonna I'm gonna assassinate everybody in the building, and they did nothing. And then the other group of people he called hunters are those who engaged in stealth, and they actually took lethal action against the judge in the judge's family. And and these these guys had a plan, and they did not share the plan. They did not communicate, and this was the part that that was so interesting to us In his his book, Hunters and Howlers, which you can get online, it's it's a US marshal publication. You can get it for free. He he said, what we have more to be concerned about was people who don't make threats rather than those who do. And so, You know, you and I work in the in the behavior business, and so we say, well, does that make counterintuitive sense, or shouldn't we be worried about people who make threats? And the answer is yes. What he saw in his research is the people that are most likely to take lethal actions did not warn the target. Well, fast forward a little bit. The Secret Service did a a report called the Exceptional Case Study Project where they found the exact same thing. They looked at Lincoln to the modern day and what they they interviewed Serhan Serhan and John Lennon's killer and all these other guys that were still around, and they looked at all these old older cases and newer cases. What they said is, In a case where this person took lethal action against the target, they did not warn the target directly. And so, you know, you and I spend a lot of time convincing our clients and the people that we try to help That that sometimes what you should be worried about is not what you see or hear, but what you don't see or hear, and that's what hunters and howlers was all about. Howlers howl. They wanna be provocative. They wanna draw negative attention. They want people to be afraid. Hunters, by contrast, don't Warn the target, and here's the here's the message, which which helps you and I, is they tell someone else. They don't tell the target. They tell a third party. And that was the big learning lesson for us in ATAP is they will leak information to a third party. The kid that wants to shoot the football coach doesn't tell the football coach. He'll get kicked off Team arrested, expelled, mental health evaluation. He tells the other players, the challenge in your work and my work is to get people who hear things, bystanders, Friends, family, to tell us, the safety and security stakeholders, what they have heard. Yeah. And then and that Whole concept, I I know with the thousands of hours I've spent researching this and and looking at all the different Studies and putting this stuff together to be able to create our school shooter course is, the identifying school shooter is to date I have not found 1 incident where at least 24 hours or greater. But the minimum's been at around the 24 hour mark, but it's usually greater than that. There's there's that leakage. Sure. It's out of them to somebody, and the the challenge is when somebody's like, oh, Frank, he's always a whack job. He's just, you know, He's just nutty, and and he's saying those crazy things. Well, differentiating between How Frank normally is and how Frank is today when he's about to take action in the next 24, 48, 72 hours to get somebody to say something, that's Challenging. I think the one thing that's heartening is there's been a couple cases lately, when I say lately, in the last 6 months where mothers have picked up the phone and called the local law enforcement agency and said, hey. My son, I'm worried about him. He's doing these things, and and it's resulted in it was credible. And and so it's My heart breaks for the mom, but at the same time you gotta appreciate mom being stand up and going, hey, you know, Quite frankly, I'd I'd I'd rather have a child in jail for making threats and preparations Rather than actually, you know, being in for first degree murder. That's a totally different environment or, you know, type situation or outcome, Ultimately, in the end, for a lot of different people. And the other part is, guess where they got the gun? You know? That same house. And and so the guns are unsecured. I have a lot of conversations with districts about gun safety. You know, you you and I are respect guns, and and and the idea that, you know, you have access As a child of 15 year old, you you don't have $600 to go buy a Glock. I mean, you have to get it from the house, and that's what happens. And, you know, your your part, when you talk about the work you're doing for the schools, I I I know you're doing the same thing I am, which is you're talking to the lunch ladies, you're talking to the school bus drivers, you're talking to the cafeteria people, you're talking to the counselors, you're talking to the art duties and this and the part time security person, the people that are on campus that see this child, You know, at whatever 12, 13, 14, 15, on up to 18 years old, you see this this child in pain, or writing things, or saying things or leaking this information, and they have to have the courage, as you just said, with a capital c, to tell the stakeholders. Whether it's campus police or school resource officer or district, You know, administrators or principals, they have to have the courage to say that because, you know you know, you've seen it a 1000000 times, which is, well, You know, either I didn't know who to tell, or I was afraid of retaliation, or I said something in the aftermath, which is not not useful. You're a little late on that. I think there's there's a step beyond to to give people credit. I think there's a step beyond courage, and that's that step of This is something I need to say something about. It is it is unique and different, and I could be wrong, but I'm still gonna say something. You know, people don't wanna say something and have it be dismissed or get rejected. That's that fear center of the brain kicking in where people think I'm stupid for saying this, and and so then they don't say anything they should have. Or they they say, people will think I'm overreacting or being paranoid or trying to scare other people, and so they don't do that as well. And and, you know, I think a parallel that I draw, because I do the same, kind of training in sexual harassment prevention, which is It is important as a bystander to sexual harassment that you tell us what you have seen. Not only, a, you may fill in a gap or a piece of information about the situation that we didn't know, The seriousness of it, the degree, and the number of times it's happened, but also that it it it gives you some ownership into the issue to say, look, I have the right to a safe workplace, A safe school, you know, and talking about threats. So I'm not harmed or targeted, or other people are not harmed or targeted. I have to step up and say or do the right thing. I, you know, I I love that, how you frame that, having the ownership. This is this is my workplace, and I I want it to be a good workplace. And and, you know, it's it's no different than if you're at work and there's a piece of Paper. Nothing bugs me more. Well, okay. That's a lie. There's lots of things that bug me more, but if I'm in the bathroom at the police station, And I looked down and somebody missed the trash can with a paper towel on their way out the door and it's laying there. And you know 4 or 5 people have gone past it and it's like, Oh, come on. Somebody just grab another paper towel, reach down, pick that radioactive paper towel up off the floor, have some pride in your station. And as much traveling as I've done to see that there's, there's different, As much traveling as I've done to see the differences in how different facilities are Treated by the people that work there, and it it it's just always interesting On human nature on that about how much people take ownership in their workplace or don't. And I think that's a I think there's also a Significance in there when we because you and I have talked leadership issues in the past. It's kind of an indication of where the leadership is is, Heading too because it's kind of an overall morale issue, and I think that those indicators pop up. So little side random Yeah. And the The tough part about the Hunter and Howler model, and and, you know, you get it and I get it because we've seen it, but sometimes my clients are like, yes. But he said here's all the things gonna do. He said he put a bomb in the building, and I'm like, okay. Who do you think makes bomb threats, bombers or bomb threat makers? Well, bomb threat makers make Bomb threats and bombers make bombs. And bombers like the Oklahoma City and the Marathon bomber, the Chechen Brothers in Boston, They don't warn the target prior to the explosion. They want it to happen. So it's highly counterintuitive sometimes For the people I talked to about the Hunter and Howler model as kind of a way to give them peace of mind and to feel better about a scary situation that this is kinda how these guys operate. I I'm more concerned about the guy who doesn't say anything versus the guy who says here's all the 15 things I'm gonna do, And and we're we can still put a fence around the howler. We can still enforce consequences. We can still use, you know, penal code threat violations, and we can still use restraining orders and all kinds of other things. But the likelihood of the perpetrator who says, I'm a come in and shoot up the place because you guys, you know, didn't get My chili dog, correct, at the at the fast food place is highly unlikely. I'm not saying it never happens, but it it's it's so in infinitesimally rare compared to the guy who used to work there And as angry at his boss, or broke up with some girl who's now dating another guy that works at the same place is much different. And so that I try to use the Hunter Howler modality with my clients to give them a sense of peace of mind and also maybe a little, reality check about what the likelihood of these things are because, you know, you've seen these cases in your career, bomb threat or all kinds of stuff. You're like, no, that's not gonna happen. That's just not gonna happen. And so when you when but when you talk to people about that, they they they think you don't care about people. How could you respond that way, Carrie? You you don't care about the kids. And I'm like, Steve, why don't you of course, I care about the kids. You and I have been shepherds since we were, you know, young men. I wanna take care of everybody, but I also know the difference between a real threat versus threat that's designed to terrify the organization into into shutting down. Yeah. And it's yeah. Absolutely. And and It's interesting how when when we, as law enforcement officers, hear those those you know, the bomb threat at whatever the building is, you're Oh my gosh. I you know it's not valid, but you still have to jump through the hoops and being able to Offer some reassurance to people without seeming uncaring. Yeah. There's a there's a little bit of a challenge there. I have a weird sort of reputation, which is I'm the anti bomb threat guy. If you Google me and bomb threats, I show up in all kinds of articles around the country and even in Canada where it's like, Well, we had this bomb threat, and and we evacuated the whole building, and we searched, and we didn't find anything. What do you think about that? I said, you shouldn't have evacuated the whole building. They go, what? I go, absent of a suspicious device or any other intelligence information that leads you to a reasonable conclusion that could be in a bomb in the building, Keep on with business as usual. Now notify the police. If you have security as a function, have them come in, bring your your stakeholder team together and say, let's make a careful search of this without terrifying the customers and the employees and the clients and everybody else, and let's figure out what to do but not shut this place down because, as you well know, When we do that, what it encourages is more of the same. So the kid that doesn't wanna take 3rd period French exam calls in a bomb threat, evacuate the school, or they shut the school down the next day, He's like, okay. Free day. And so we proved that the model works when when some 15 year old with a with a keyboard or a cell phone, You know, it does that. I'm not saying we don't look for it or try to enforce consequences. I'm saying that what you know, the the the the model does not make sense When we consider the people that really put bombs in buildings, don't say anything. Yeah. Yeah. That makes total sense. So let me ask you this. How did you know that you've had such an amazingly cool career? How did you go from all the stuff that we've already discussed into road rage consulting? Because you you've done that too. So it's weird. You can't make a penny at doing it, but I I'm probably one of the best known guys around the world, interestingly enough, on road rage. And so For a while there, there was a state of these cases happening, and I've spoken on TV in South Africa and And and Australia, New Zealand, and Canada, and Singapore, and tons of places in the United States about road rage, because, You know, in your time and my time, we didn't capture it. Now everybody captures it. So there's there's just tons of video, tons of YouTube stuff, tons of of Captured cell phone things of, you know, road rage incidents ranging from people flipping each other off to to to death. And so I got contacted a lot by these news organizations saying, you know, I saw you talk about road rage in the southern incident here. Can you talk about it? And so I I'm actually I'm working on a book about it because I I wanna be able to say if you're a victim of road rage, it's pretty serious. You can be injured or killed by these perpetrators. And then also, the second half of that coin is if you have that problem, here's how you get some help. You you you're gonna end up in jail. You're gonna end up dead. It's the wrong thing to do in front of your kids. It's it's a complete and, you know, from your work in in de escalation, it's complete use of the little brain, Complete complete failure of of mastery of yourself and mastery of your anger. So I even testified in a in a court case on anger management, Interestingly enough, involving an off duty cop who pointed his gun at at a at a citizen up in LA and got fired, and I was working for the city that fired him. And I talked about stuff like territoriality and anonymity and narcissism and the sense that that I can do this without consequence because there are no cops around. So there's kind of a model that I developed for, you know, about 6 or 8 different factors related to road rage. And You you think about, you know, sort of the low end of it, it's it's people flipping each other off for dirty looks or, you know, honking their horns. At the at the worst end of it, it's guns, it's, you know, ball bats, it's using your car as a weapon. And what I find interesting in a lot of these perpetrators is they may feel bad about it. And and you know this from your work in terms of consequences when people are angry, they don't realize it until they're sitting in the jail cell, or they don't realize it until they're sitting in a hospital room with a injury because of what they did. I find that fascinating that the the lack of insight about threats or violence or use violence or using your car in a violent way or threatening other people, their their lack of insight during that time I mean, they they maybe they're mild mannered people prior to that, but then something happens, and then they turn into this monster. But they don't recognize it fast enough. And that that's the part I think, You know, guys like you and I struggle with is how do we how do we help people that can't control themselves to to get those those Ability to maintain and anchor themselves in a situation before it's too late. Yeah. And and when you I mean that is so deep into survival state when you're just you're bent on causing physical harm to somebody Using your vehicle as a weapon. And that's literally as far into survival state as you can get and as far away from executive as you can get to where you're you're you're just wrapped up in it. And those, I think, are really good examples where I talk about How anger can be addictive. Sure. And the whole concept Of oh, just let them vent, and and they'll be better. They just need to get it out of their no. No. Actually, venting, letting somebody vent can be bad Because all these stress chemicals build in, and then it just starts it's like a volcano that's gonna erupt. And if you had just Poured a little bit of water on it sooner, everything would have been fine. But but but now you've got this this huge bonfire to deal with instead of a little spark to deal with. And so, yeah, that that's that's funny that all these different countries that you rattled off. I'll I'll I'll I'll I'll say this. I I made the remark. We, we had gone to Italy. We spent almost a month there. This was back before the shutdown. It was back in, like, 2018, I think. And while we were there, we were taking, like, Uber type transportation around Rome. And we're in this, and they've shown that that they shoot this area in in a lot of movies. It's this big roundabout thing. And our driver is, like I'm looking out the left rear passenger window. I'm like, dude, you have, like, 3 centimeters because you're in Italy, gotta say it in centimeters. Sure. Yeah. 3 centimeters between you and the next car, and the driver's arm is hanging out They're just driving along. He's just waving. Everybody's honking at each other. They didn't wreck. They didn't Other than, you know, they might shout at each other, but it was it wasn't long and sustained. It was just momentary. It's like, oh, whatever. It was it was done. It was it. It was it. No big deal. And they drive like maniacs in Rome, But everybody's okay with it. And so I was just like, well, this is kinda cool. But in other countries, apparently, road wages is a major problem. So that's, that's wild. And so it's kinda cool because I use, actually a road rage example every time I train because I talk about shifting yourself from survival state into executive state. And that whole concept of win, that idiot cuts you off and you start to get mad and you start yelling at them because there's nobody else in the car and everybody knows you'll say things And sometimes do things that you, you know, and I'm talking even on the low level of like doing a break check or Not letting you know, purposely blocking somebody else so they can't keep going. Sure. You'll never do that with somebody in the car. But sometimes people do that in front of their wife and kids, which I find curious. It's like, well, what do they think, you know, of your control? You know, you you You and I haven't talked about this, but I'm sure you'll agree. I think the phrase anger management is not well used. I think it's anger mastery. So management means let's stuff it down, let's pack it down, let's keep it from exploding, that volcano example you gave, versus mastery, which says I can master this emotion to the degree where it doesn't put Put me in jail, doesn't get me in a hospital, doesn't get me fired, doesn't get me arrested, doesn't ruin my relationship with my kids or my spouse. And I just think there are so many people that are just Uncivil and furious all the time that even the smallest thing. You know, you you look up from your phone when the light turns green and they're on the horn, you know, behind you go. Let's go. And it's just that, you know, that instability and lack of patience and lack of empathy, I just find I find, you know, increasing and just sad. Well, I think that that goes to when we talk about triggers. I think everybody as we went through the Whole shutdown experience during COVID, it really set people on edge for many different reasons. And it it sets up a situation where when you're already on edge, now it's the next trigger, that next Straw to break the camel's back does not have to be it's like it's like one of those stir coffee stir sticks now. It doesn't have to be a jumbo Straw. It's just one of those tiny little ones and and maybe like one of those cut in half and that's gonna tip you over. And so the whole concept of being able to, You know, look at somebody who who cuts you off in traffic and go, gosh, I'm curious why that person's driving that way, To immediately switch your brain, to calm your amygdala down and have the fear center of your brain switch you into Executive state because you can't be in survival state and be curious at the same time. Being in gratitude, I'm, boy, I'm really glad I'm not driving like That guy, I'm grateful we didn't have an accident. You can't be in gratitude and survival state at the same time. So just those little tools that we teach people for de escalating themselves 1st really falls into being valuable nowadays because there's so many people on edge. I've seen over the last 2 weeks 3 different parking lot arguments Because somebody snarched somebody else's parking spot. We're not even at Christmas time at a major shopping mall where there's no parking spots and people are like, Do do do do do do do. Down down the the aisle way hunting, you know, following people who are going to their cars. We're not even at that time of the year yet And I'm going, what is up with these posts? So, yeah, you have a good point. People will people are on edge, that's for sure, and and, they need people like you to share this information with them so they're safer. Well, the, you know, the the road rage thing is such an odd sort of Subject, because so people I know that are that have counseling practices, they do group work, and they do anger anger management with these, you know, people who've been on probationary, You know, process, they have to go to a a quota class, and I'm not talking about DB Batter or that kind of thing, but for road rage, anger anger class. And so they'll have these, You know, they have a workbook, and you have to work through some 50 week program or something. I'm like, really? I mean and so, you know, the dropout rate for the people who are in The program is really high, and they end up violating their probation. And I'm like, this is the best model that we have about this concept, and, you know, it's all about Let's drag this process out instead of, you know, what you and I are trying to do, which is come to an immediate set of tools for this person's toolkit that can be applied right away, and we're not we're not gonna stretch this out for over a year. But I think the model of how we address anger in our culture, you know, through some therapeutic process which involves groups and, You know, maybe it's all men in 1 group and women in another, and you talk about your feelings, and these guys don't wanna be there. I mean, they they really don't, and and they're there at the point of the sword, which is done by the court some I I find that just puzzling that that's that's kind of the model that's attached to to anger management. Yeah. And and, Honestly, not to be cynical about it, but I think it's a money generating thing because it's certainly not effective. You can't have somebody go To repeated classes again and again and again and again, expect there not to be a high dropout rate. People don't no one has time for that. And and quite frankly, if you're unemployed, you still don't have time for it because you got other stuff going on in your life. So to have to have a long drawn out process and the reality is It doesn't have to be. The tools that we teach are learned very quickly, And and they're scientifically proven to work. That's the best part about what we do at IDeas. Everything that we teach has a white paper behind it. So, let's let's shift gears a little bit because I wanna I wanna talk about on this because as we wrap in This workplace violence stuff. And you and I have talked about some de escalation techniques and protection techniques. As an example, you've talked about breath control, stress management, anger mastery techniques. Let's talk a little bit about Some of the other tools that you share people on the workplace violence end of things where they can be a little bit safer. Yeah. I think this is probably something you talk about as well, which is space. And I I think, especially for men, we, you know, we we don't like being crowded in and people, you know, he got in my face, get in my space. And, I mean, simply one of the easiest things I try to get people to do is, especially for males, and but this also works, you know, men, women together, is Instead of this toe to toe, face to face, confrontational gunfighter, boxer, you know, posture, which is we went toe to toe, nose to nose, chest to chest, It's a high stress, high energy, it's confrontive kind of a posture. I simply say, you know, move yourself to a 45 and offset. And so, you know, it's what the native Americans call colliding shadows. My shadow's right on top of this person just raises the energy. And and so I said, just move your feet to the 45 so you're not Standing on top of this person's shadow, it's a very subtle thing. I also talk about space in terms of proximate barriers, which in and especially in the library world, And I do all the stuff in government where, you know, there are counters and desks and furniture and chairs, and I say, you know, if you're really afraid of this person's behavior, then think about the proximity barriers that you work with. You don't have to stand, you know, glued to the counter. You can step back and use that space plus the counter. You can use objects. You know, in the library world, we talk about, you know, carts and half shelves and furniture and desks and counters and things like that, That an an intuitive person would move behind those things and say, I need a little barrier between me and this angry person because I I feel like, You know, if I don't do that and they lash out at me, shame on me for not moving out of harm's way. And so I I I think a lot about proximity and social space, Intimate space, personal space, you know, where where people get most angry. And it it's interesting to me that, you know, where we see so much violence in health care, And you've seen the, you know, ER, and I know your clients are in healthcare as well. You know, I have I have clinics and pain management clinics are really tough they're drug seekers, everybody in their ERs are just, you know, really, really provocative places. And and the idea that that people in health care work in intimate space where you only allow your loved ones into that space. You know, you and I would have a conversation in either social space or because we know each other personal space, but they're an intimate space, and it just raises the emotional temperature so dramatically. And so I'm always trying to tell, you know, people that I'm talking to that space is a big thing for people that are upset, and and and your ability to read The appropriate social distance, whether it's a cultural thing or just a just a social thing, is really critical. Yeah. Yeah. And it's interesting you mentioned the cultural, physical space, personal space. In Europe, it's totally different That it is in the US. The US it's people expect more distance. And when that distance is Closed. The fear center of the brain just triggers off because the fear center of the brain's asking 1 question all day long, am I Safe. And another way to phrase that question is, are you a friend or a foe? Right. Well, friend or foe in that that closer space, You know, you to use your phrases that you just used, they got in my space, and we were toe to toe, and and they're they're up in my Kool Aid. That's my phrase. Which if you think about upping your cholate, it makes no sense. I admit that. However, if you get it still at the same time, The, the whole the whole fascinating part of why we do the things that we do without thinking about them. Sure. How intuitive is it to be away from Potential threats. I mean, that's that's cave cave day stuff. And I think, you know, one one of my struggles with with certain people in in the training world is They misread body language. And and, you know, you and I think about that stuff all the time. And so I think some of the subtle signals of body language that some people miss because they're used to the, you know, the larger than life howler sort of over the top emotional outburst. And I'm I'm always concerned about the guy that sort of tick, tick, ticking, and his his body language is much more subtle. And I I think, you know, the challenge for you and I is to help people see those subtle signals too. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely critical. Absolutely critical. Alright, doctor Steve. As we wind this conversation up And we let our listeners get on with the rest of their commute or whatever they happen to be up to. Any final bits of wisdom that you'd like to share with folks before we before we go. I think a lot about, being patient in an inpatient world, and I think a lot about being empathic, And that, you know, it sort of came to me that that so many people are carrying stuff around that we just all know about. You know, it could be health or finances or relationships, and and they're they're trying as best they can, but sometimes they're they're just not winning the struggle when they it it comes out of them. You know, I have kind of a parallel. One of my colleagues, Ryan Dowd, he's a a library expert for homelessness. He ran a homeless shelter outside of Chicago for 25 years, wrote a a big book for library people on homelessness. And he says, you know, one of the models he sort of shared with me is Stop seeing them as sort of inanimate objects when they're standing on the side of the road holding their sign, and they're standing on the street corner, or they're they're on the island where you pull up to your car. And all they hear all day as quick, quick, quick, because the door locks people's cars. I mean, I I don't have a 2 hour conversation with them, but I wave at them. But I roll them on and go, hey, how's it going? I I get some of these women don't feel comfortable doing that. I'm not saying it for everybody, but I I think most often we pass these people by and say, don't make eye contact. Don't look at them. If I don't look at this person, he won't look at me. And my you know, one of my nearest resolutions a couple years ago is just start seeing people like that that are in a struggle. I have it much worse than you and I, you know, are blessed to be in our lives. I try to see them as human beings, and I I think that's That's gone out the window these these last couple years in terms of the sort of sense of instability, impatience, and lack of empathy. I I I just find it, You know, a challenge to get other people to see sort of that way. Yeah. And on a personal protection note, I've I've shifted my approach on that as well, and I did this a number of years ago. Right now, you can kinda tell I'm in a hotel room. I'm on the road. I'm in San Antonio because I just got done teaching For, TCOL, which is the Texas Commission on Law Enforcement, their annual training conference. And so last night, I realized I I don't have any water to make my shake in the morning. So there's a convenience store, and it's it's probably half a mile from my hotel because I'm in I'm in the Riverwalk area of San Antonio. So it's a it's a walk. I'm like, that's cool. It's great great weather, muggy as I'll get out, but it's great weather otherwise. And it was probably about 11 o'clock at night. I'm Gonna hidey ho to the store, get some exercise in at the same time. And there's a ton of homeless along the Riverwalk area in San Antonio. It's just and to be expected, it's just the way it is nowadays. And what I've found consistently is when I acknowledge the people that I'm walking by that are, quite frankly, potential threats. And, you know, it's all the stuff about being prey not Or not being prey, being a predator, not prey about your body language, how you walk. There's been studies on strident, all that stuff. But setting all that aside, Simply acknowledging people, looking at them, and and just going, hey, just a greeting. Because now all of a sudden you're both humans. And the likelihood of you being prey and and and and and Avoiding eye contact and being intimidated. I I won't look at them. You're more likely to get hurt. You're more likely to get attacked versus you looking straight at them, acknowledging that they're there. One of the things that I used to teach, when I was vice detective, and we do a lot of establishment. You know, liquor store and 711 type, places when we do inspections. I'd always tell the clerk, customer walks in, look at them, Try to make eye contact and greet them. Every single person that walks in your business, greet them because now they know you saw them, And there's an energetic exchange that happens. And back then, I couldn't explain it, but I can explain it now, but there's an actual energetic Exchange that happens, and the likelihood of you being hurt by that person simply because you greeted them is less now. Absolutely. Which to me is pretty cool. And again, it comes back to the whole thing. Are you a friend or a foe? Absolutely. So, Hey. This has been fascinating. I could talk to you all day long. I always enjoy talking to you. I I admire the work that you've done. You know, I've written a a couple of books, and I know how much work it is. I haven't written 26. Dude, you rock the world. I know you just you're You're always so generous with your wisdom, and it it truly is wisdom. And I appreciate you being on the show. I look forward to having you, you know, back in the future and and just being able to collaborate with you on different projects. I look forward to that. And Yeah. I appreciate it, Carrie. Just being able to stand next to you and talk about these things, and also go back to where you and I have learned from a lot of other masters as well. So Yeah. And and thanks again for keeping me safe as a young cop. So appreciate that. Thanks, Gary. Good to see you. Good to see you too. Listeners, as you wrap things How you can get ahold of Steve Albercht is in the show notes. And so if you're driving along, don't worry about it. Everything's there for you. Reach out to him if you have any questions, if you have any any, anything that you need where you need to get his wisdom. Certainly, if you see a book with his name on it, it's good stuff consistently, so be sure to check out Steve. Be sure to check out our website for idea, The idea. World, we have tons of resources available to you. We discussed identifying school shooters. We have a a very in-depth course about that. We have de escalation training available for you no matter if you're in police, fire, medical services, k through 12 schools. We also serve flight attendants in corporate. So what if you need help with communication conflict resolution de escalation, We're your one stop shop. Until next time. Please stay safe. I hope you found a lot of great value in this episode of the D escalation Conversations Cast, please be sure to go to our website, theideadotworldtheideadot World. On that website, just click on the link that resonates with you most. If you're a k through 12 educator, if you're a firefighter, medical services, law enforcement, Flight attendants. Whatever industry you're in, we have specialized training for you. So check that training out because, literally, it can save your life. It can save your relationship. It can save your career. So check out the idea dot world. I look forward to seeing you soon. Take care.