What have we seen so far? | Disruptive Presence 59

We're back after our annual summer break and excited to talk to you about Acts. We did think, however, that maybe a brief recap on where we've been might be helpful - we've been in Acts for over a year now, so there's quite a lot of content been laid down here. Normal pace (!) will resume next episode, but here for now is us getting back into the groove.

Episode 116 of the Two Texts Podcast | Disruptive Presence 59

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Transcript

Transcript is AI generated

[00:00:00] David Harvey: Well, hello, John. It's good to see you. 

[00:00:06] John Andrews: a while. It seems like a while since we've said that together. Hello, David. It's good to see you again. And I'm good to be back with two text podcast. Come on. 

[00:00:15] David Harvey: Yes, absolutely. So probably, let's begin with confession because it's always a good thing to do when you've been away for a while is that for many of our listeners, perhaps they're like, Oh, you all weren't around in in August, but for us, because of your travel schedule and I was on sabbatical, we actually did quite a lot of recording work. 

[00:00:34] And so we've not sat down to record since kind of early, early June, was it?  

[00:00:38] John Andrews: Certainly we did it. We did a chunk of recording. So enjoyed that sort of back to back. We sort of got into a bit of a groove, which was absolutely fantastic which released us then to, to get off and do stuff. And and it's been a very eventful summer for, for both of us. 

[00:00:53] You've, you've enjoyed a three month sabbatical and, and traveled to different places. 

[00:00:59] David Harvey: Yes, absolutely. I I got over to the UK made it to kind of really significant places got even to Iona out on the west coast of Scotland, kind of sort of significant Christian site there. We were in the UK for a family wedding that I was a Which I think for a very brief moment, our listeners might be interested to know, for a very brief moment, I think you and I were about 15 miles from each other. 

[00:01:23] But the problem is I was just arriving in on a train and you were leaving on a plane but we knew that we were in the same space. 

[00:01:31] John Andrews: That's true. So near and yet so far. Absolutely. It's quite incredible that we were so close to each other, but just schedules meant that we were, we were moving in slightly, well, significantly different directions in terms of that, but, but hopefully we'll see each other in person next month when, when I'm with you over in Canada. 

[00:01:51] So that should be great. 

[00:01:53] David Harvey: absolutely. Absolutely. So, so back to things podcasting. We are now over a year into our X series and have made it all the way to chapter 13. Which is a remarkable pace and I'm playing on both optional meanings of the word remarkable there. 

[00:02:13] John Andrews: Yes, as I've been traveling over the summer, I did some teaching in Singapore and August was out there for about three weeks and I was sort of plugging to text and I just said, if you like a slow read, then you'll enjoy this. So to give you an idea, I think we're on episode 57 or something like that. We're still. 

[00:02:33] just getting into chapter 13. So, so yeah, it could take maybe another, at least another year to get this done, but we're loving it. I have to say I'm really enjoying it. And some of the lovely feedback I've been getting directly from people that have spoke to at different events that have taught in and even messages from people just saying it's been, it's been great. 

[00:02:52] I was talking to one pastor and as soon as I met him, he said, Oh, I took you on holiday with me. I went, sorry. He said, I took you on holiday. He said, I had. Two text podcasts running constantly said on the holiday. Absolutely love it. So, so you're, you're getting those sorts of beautiful bits of feedback, which is absolutely delightful. 

[00:03:10] And I think the slow read people are appreciating a bit of a slower read of the text and the fact that we don't need to rush and there's no agenda other than, Hey, look, we're reading the Bible together, and that's it. That's, that's all the only agenda we have. 

[00:03:25] David Harvey: I mean, I am always really grateful when people leave reviews for us and in the various sort of podcasting platforms, but, but I think the thing I find most sort of a privilege really is when I hear. That people are sharing the podcast with their friends because they've found the sort of work that we're doing really helpful. 

[00:03:42] And sometimes they hear the stories like my own father told me a story that he took a road trip to Ukraine early in the Ukrainian conflict to deliver some, some aid to some people who were displaced. And the guy that he was traveling with, my dad said, all I've got is these podcasts to listen to for the trip from Scotland to Ukraine. 

[00:04:01] So I can't decide if that was the sort of thing that is. Human rights violation on the person just being forced to listen to you and me for an entire journey to Ukraine. But but that was so maybe this is a public apology to my dad's friend. 

[00:04:17] John Andrews: serious. Yes. I could just imagine your dad's friend trapped in a van on the way to Ukraine. What's, what's more challenging is, is, what they're going to find in Ukraine with our podcast. But there we are. Bless him. I hope he has recovered and I hope he's doing okay. 

[00:04:33] David Harvey: absolutely. But what we thought we maybe would do today just finding our groove, perhaps. So thank you for bearing with us, finding our groove of getting back into podcast. And we thought, because it's been such a long time, let's just take a pause and reflect a little bit on the journey so far. We, we left our final episode before the summer, we have this, this, this story of this church in Antioch. 

[00:05:00] And I mean, I was thinking about it as we came into this without. Without the first 12 chapters, imagine leaving the gospels at the end, getting to the end of the, the resurrection stories, and then jumping straight to X 13. And now the church at Antioch, there were prophets and teachers, Barnabas, Simeon, Lucius, I mean, this would make. 

[00:05:29] Almost no sense to you whatsoever, and once it's the slow burn of our read through over the last year Has a sense of just The incredible shift that has happened, you know So if you imagine you took acts chapter 1 through 12 out of your bible You have somehow got from a very small and I mean that respectfully, but a very small splinter group of young jewish men who are convinced that this This man called Jesus has died. 

[00:06:01] They are holding claims to his resurrection based on their eyewitness statement. And 13 chapters later, this thing called the church is now in Antioch. I mean, I mean, it's quite impressive, isn't it? At at 

[00:06:14] John Andrews: Oh, 
 

[00:06:15] David Harvey: that level, what the Holy spirit's been doing. 

[00:06:18] John Andrews: totally. And I think that is the benefit of taking our time and getting a feel for the stages of the story. I think we're so familiar. Well, probably our listeners are very familiar with the story of the church and the fact that the church is now a global dynamic community on the earth today. 

[00:06:40] And yet to imagine there was a time when it, when it was. 120 approximately people in a room waiting for the Holy Spirit to come and help them and, and then to see what happens from that point. This little group on the fringe of the empire reaching to the very heart of the empire by the end of the book of Acts. 

[00:07:04] And here we are in Antioch the third largest city in the Roman empire. And these followers of Jesus are making such a significant. impact in that city that the city has to label them. They have to call them a name, some sort of description, and they're called Christians there. And of course, we see from that launch point an incredible new phase of expansion into the Gentile world as well as as well as touching Jewish communities within that Gentile world. 

[00:07:36] So it is a truly remarkable story, I think, because we see the bigness of the church's influence across the earth. It is easy to forget that it started with a handful of people and those handful of people, if you were a betting person, you would have, there would have been odds against their survival by the end of x chapter one. 

[00:07:59] Well, not only did they survive, but they have thrived in the most incredible way. And we have witnessed some of that journey up to this point, which is truly remarkable. 

[00:08:11] David Harvey: And it's interesting in retrospect, I was looking through all of the episodes that we've, that we've done and, and I remember the, us laughing at ourselves, how long it took us to get to chapter two. And I think, I think we were. We're like episode five, we've got through chapter two. And I remember us then thinking, okay, maybe this is a bigger project than we realized, even, even though we knew it was a big project. 

[00:08:38] But I remember saying at the time, paying attention to what the Holy Spirit was doing in the early church right there in Acts chapter two in the Pentecost story will become. A guide to how to go about reading this, this book. And the fact that we titled the series, The Disruptive Presence. 

[00:08:55] And I I have this line from Willie Jennings in my head about Acts where he says, Acts teaches us that the spirit of God will always take us where we don't necessarily want to go. And. And I think even in the first 12 chapters we can feel that the Holy Spirit has so revolutionized the hearts of these people that they are, I think we can say, they are in places they just never imagined or wanted to go to. 

[00:09:24] Do you think that's a, is that a fair summary? 

[00:09:27] John Andrews: Oh, for sure. And I think, I think in the, the work of the spirit, there are dynamic layers in the book of Acts. I think you're seeing the obvious layer of missional trajectory. You will be my witnesses when the Holy Spirit comes on you. power comes on you, Jesus said, and you'll, you'll be my witnesses in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, to the ends of the earth. 

[00:09:49] So that's an obvious trajectory. But of course, what the layers of the book of Acts is in order to get a community of believers to go to Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and the ends of the earth, something significant has got to change in them. There's got to be radical shifts in the way they see their world and the way they see the Lord. 

[00:10:09] Amen. In the way they see their mission, in the way they see their own culture, in the way they see their ethnicity, in the way they see the ethnicity of others, there have to be some radical shifts because if the Holy Spirit is going to take me even just to Jerusalem, there are huge challenges as a follower of Jesus just in Jerusalem. 

[00:10:30] But if he's going to take me across the border into Samaria, ooh, hold on a minute I've got some things to think through there And if he's going to take me to the Gentile world with all the problems that that's going to throw up From a group of believers that have been largely schooled in a Jewish worldview Then then massive changes are having to take place So I think sometimes we can say all the book of acts is about the Holy Spirit and mission And of course it is. 

[00:10:57] But I think it's also about the Holy Spirit and formation. I think it's the Holy Spirit forming something in this community, changing the members of this community. I think the Peter story off Cornelius is absolutely pivotal to this. This change on the dramatic nature of this sort of juxtaposition of a Roman who seems to be open to the Lord on a follower of Jesus, who seems to be resisting the Lord. 

[00:11:24] And I think that shows you that the Holy Spirit's work is not just about reaching lost people or people outside of the church, but often as much he has to work in the church. He has to work in our hearts and he has to change our hearts in order to ensure that the thing he wants to do beyond the church actually gets done. 

[00:11:46] And I think if you're willing to read the book of Acts is both the dramatic and dynamic and glorious expansion of the church, as well as the painful layers of change that the church has to engage in, in order to make that mission possible, then I think there's a beautiful tension to be managed within the text of the book of Acts. 

[00:12:07] David Harvey: Mm. Mm. Oh, I love that, John. And it resonates with, with my, given the way you said it about the, we talk about the Holy Spirit and mission, but, and I mean, I mean, no disrespect to the word mission when I say this, but the word mission so often. It's such a, it can become such a sanitized word it, it means, what we want it to mean. 

[00:12:31] And, and what we've seen in acts is that the, and that's why I love this term, the disruptive presence because acts at some level is the Holy Spirit disrupting, but, but disrupting not the people who expected to be disrupted most of the time, the disruption, I mean, you used it in Peter and Cornelius is the perfect example, the people that we think. 

[00:12:53] I think we're supposed to think of God altogether are the people who are being disrupted so that the people who we would normally think need disrupting can find Jesus and their space in Jesus. And that's why I love that second word presence, because in the midst of all this disruption, the Holy Spirit is ever present to them and they're never alone in this. 

[00:13:15] And that, that sense that if you really want to be close to Jesus, like the old hymns always say, I sometimes wonder if we know what we're asking for, like Jesus be near me act is the story of what it looks like when Jesus is near you and, and it's turning the world upside down as, as the disciples are accused of themselves,  

[00:13:36] John Andrews: Yeah, and I think one of the dangers, David, I'm sort of born and raised in a Pentecostal church, card carrying, classic Pentecostal in that respect. I think one of the dangers is that we can sanitize the Holy Spirit. We make the Holy Spirit this sort of, forgive my language, tool to help me do my job sort of thing. 

[00:13:59] But of course, when you really think about what Jesus said about the Holy Spirit, that he would do carry on the work that Jesus began in us, that we wouldn't be left as orphans, that part of the work of the Spirit is not just to empower us and equip us, but to form us and to shape us and to, as it were, conform us to the image and dynamic of, of Christ. 

[00:14:23] I've just been doing some meditation on the fruit of the Spirit and this, this dynamic. Expression of the nature and character of God through what we call the fruit of the Spirit in Galatians chapter 5 Which which is not just about me being more loving it is about the Holy Spirit forming God love God, joy, God, peace in me and that that nature and character. 

[00:14:50] Now, when we're chatting on a podcast, that sounds absolutely amazing. But when you're in the furnace of that experience, when the Holy Spirit is trying to form Jesus in me and actually he's trying to form love and what I want is selfishness, he's trying to form generosity and what I want, what I want is greed. 

[00:15:10] He's trying to form a generous approach to mission. And what I want to do is stick with my own kind and be with people just like me. Then that's a painful experience. It is a dynamically disrupting experience. It is an experience that can make us. Deeply, deeply, deeply uncomfortable. And I think the book of Acts reminds us that although the Holy Spirit absolutely is 100 percent with us in order to help us be and do everything we're called to be and do. 

[00:15:40] That is not going always to be a comfortable journey. It's going to be personally painful. It's going to be I think corporately painful. I think, and we have seen through the death of Stephen, we have seen the execution of James. We have seen communities persecuted and pushed and scattered. We have seen even attitudes within the church challenged. 

[00:16:05] They are all Deeply, deeply, deeply challenging ideas and sometimes deeply painful ideas. And I think in embracing the person of the spirit, we have to also embrace, wow, this is going to be a bit of a roller coaster for me and we cannot remain the same. And be filled with the Spirit. And I don't just mean that in terms of speaking in tongues and whatever your experience is. 

[00:16:29] But I mean, you cannot get close to the Holy Spirit. We cannot walk in step with the Spirit. And that, to some degree, not be uncomfortable. And I think that's what the book of Acts teaches us. A journey of glorious expansion, but also of deep change, challenge and discomfort. 

[00:16:49] David Harvey: And what I love about everything you were saying there that I was, again, you're trying to reflect on a year's worth of podcasts as well as the book of Acts and asking myself really the question, what am I seeing in Acts now that I haven't? seen before as a result of this slow read for us personally. 

[00:17:06] And all of that stuff that you're saying is so fundamentally and functionally true within the book. But I also love how all of that happens without any guilt. And I've been thinking about this, there's no there's no shoulds and oughts. In that this is not the church going, Oh, we really should do this. 

[00:17:30] And we really should do that. And we really ought to do this. The disruption is exactly as you've said it. It's like you engage with the Holy Spirit and that change happens. Not because of your hard effort, but actually of your lack of effort, of you just allowing the Holy Spirit to do this. Like I was thinking Peter and Cornelius, that I think of that story. 

[00:17:52] Peter is having this discussion with himself and God about the acceptability of this vision that he's having. And as long as Peter accepts it, Cornelius's men turn up at his house and take him there. So Peter now doesn't have to go and work to do things. He just has to accept the work of the Holy Spirit in his life. 

[00:18:13] And I was, I was playing around with this phrase in my mind that... One of the ways that we know that it's grace we're engaging with is that grace doesn't bring guilt. That grace is this gift of God to us. Which changes us radically disrupts us immensely, but never does it through a sort of guilt mechanism. 

[00:18:38] It just does it through here is the gift of God. And I think you see that in the fruits of the spirit that you mentioned in Galatians. It's not as exactly as you said, go and be more loving. It's like just and that creates guilt. Oh, I'm not loving enough. Am I loving enough? Instead with grace you get. 

[00:18:56] This is what God has given to you and is in doing in you, if you'll allow it. And as you, even if you just scroll through the titles of the episodes of our series for the last year, you see how the Holy Spirit has changed them in terms of their generosity, right? That they're, but they're, they're giving in immensely sacrificial ways, but not guilt motivated. 

[00:19:19] Like these people are excited to do this. The Barnabases, there's no sense that Barnabas is doing. All of his stuff because well, I suppose I better, there's, there's no. There's no sense that this is just what we're lumped with and stuck with and I supposed we must or we're in trouble. 

[00:19:37] This, the sermons of these early apostles are, are not hellfire and brimstone sermons. They're sermons about look at what God has done for us and and we can just accept it. And, and, and although I don't think Acts. phrases it the way I have, it struck me how this complete absence of guilt from any of the mechanisms that the Holy Spirit works through, I think is really phenomenal as a, as even as a pastoral and Christian discipleship thing for us in the present era. 

[00:20:12] John Andrews: Very good. No, that's beautiful. I think that's beautiful. And as a reflection there and I was reflecting on one of my favorite conversations we had together around Philip and this, beautifully dynamic contrast in Philip's life where he, he voluntarily goes to Sumeria and ministers and he's led by the spirit to go to the, to the Ethiopian and, and the dynamic of the journey into unknown territory, the challenge of managing all of that and the challenge of just letting the Holy Spirit do what the Holy Spirit does. 

[00:20:54] So, so you, you have people come to faith in Sumeria. and something amazing things happen there. And, and then we see this beautiful intimate experience of the Ethiopian eunuch and, and Philip just seems to cooperate. He's just cooperating with the Holy Spirit. So he, he doesn't seem to have And if he does have any angst about what he's doing, he's certainly managing that very, very well. 

[00:21:24] But he, he comes to the understanding, right, the Holy Spirit's moving. I need to move with the Holy, I need to use Paul's language. I need to keep in step with the Spirit. I just, just need to, wherever he's going, let's go. Whatever he wants to do, let's do it. really beautifully. I know he's a, I know he's probably a book of X evangelist in that sense, but Philip shows this gorgeous ability to just go, forgive my language and simplicity of it, but just go with the flow. 

[00:21:51] He's, he's, he's going right. The Holy Spirit's moving here. That's go with the Holy Spirit and that's do whatever the Holy Spirit is doing irrespective of whether it fits in my box neatly or not. And 

[00:22:04] David Harvey: mm, 
 

[00:22:04] John Andrews: I think that's the challenge. all the time with us in the journey. And I think the book of Acts helps us with this, that we're, as humans, we're constantly trying to box God up, to understand God, to, can I even say, manipulate, control, order, make, make the Lord do what we want him to do. 

[00:22:24] And the book of Acts. Is showing us well, actually, no, he has an agenda and he's sort of saying, well, why don't you get out of your box and come follow me? Why don't you put down your agenda and pick up my agenda? And I think the book of X reminds us that actually, if we're prepared to step out of our own world into his. 

[00:22:46] If we're prepared to lay down our own agenda and pick up pace, our world actually gets much, much, much, much bigger than it would have done had we tried to remain within our confines and reduce the Holy Spirit down to the boundaries that we have set. And I think that is one of the ongoing paradoxes of humans in relationship with the Lord. 

[00:23:08] I think we're always trying to place God in our boundaries. And yet the Lord is always trying to get us to his boundaries. And I think those two things are a constant tension. And I think the book of Acts beautifully and disturbingly sometimes shows us the journey between those two, two ideas. 

[00:23:31] David Harvey: And, and of course, when, when you're when you're talking about. The, the boundaries of, of, of God, you can't help but think about Paul's line in Ephesians where he talks about how, how deep, how wide, how, we, our, our, our inability to grasp just how. Great that is. And Act is the picture book of that, isn't it? 

[00:23:54] Like you just can't grasp how big this, I mean, we're approaching chapter 13 and we're not even near the end yet. There's still growth to happen here, isn't there? 

[00:24:06] John Andrews: Absolutely. I love how the message puts that that prayer of Paul in Ephesians. It says that you may grasp the extravagant dimensions of his love and I think that's what the book of Acts is about. It's about a God who has extravagant dimensions and he will not be boxed up. He will not be controlled and he will not be reduced down to the lowest common denominator. 

[00:24:31] And when we try to do that, then he has a tendency to blow the walls off our boxes and do something quite controversial because he's desperate. Genuinely, I think he's he's desperate to to that his extravagant dimensions of his love and grace touch the world. 

[00:24:51] David Harvey: if we were like, at some level, that's what I'm hoping people grasp from the series so far. It is not that. Well, this is a lot of really interesting information about the Book of Acts. It's that as you dive into the Book of Acts and ask questions about the Book of Acts, what I'm hoping you find is a new appreciation and experience of God's love. 

[00:25:24] Actually physically in your own life. I think that's, that's my hope as a, as a podcast creator really is not that this acts has just made us all smarter about acts, but actually has made us in our cars, homes on our walks and runs or holidays or trips to Ukraine has made us think, wow, the love of God that we're seeing in this is the same love of God that is. 

[00:25:49] Disrupting my own heart and, and drawing me. I mean, we've been brought to tears recording some of these podcasts because you're just overwhelmed by what God's doing. But I love that, that's not a historical story, but that is the story that we are part of as well. 

[00:26:05] John Andrews: Well, it was interesting, David, just to bring this right up to date. I was flying to Singapore in August, and I had managed to book a premier economy seat from my big long legs at the front. And, as you do, you're saying, Lord, I'd love an upgrade. Lord, could I have an upgrade? Lord, could you give me an upgrade? 

[00:26:22] Business class upgrade in Singapore Airlines would be amazing. And and the upgrade didn't come. And I got a bit edgy, got a bit fed up, would have been great to get an upgrade. I'm not asking for much and I felt a real, a real prompt of the Holy Spirit and a real rebuke in my heart. And so standing there in the departure lounge, I said, Lord, please forgive me if I, if I'm not meant to have an upgrade, but I am meant to sit. 

[00:26:47] In 31K, which is the seat I was booked into. And the person beside me is meant to be beside me. Then I, please forgive me, I want to be open. Maybe, maybe you have positioned me in that seat for that person. So the flight to Singapore is approximately 14 hours. Me and the guy beside me, Andrew, got some sleep. 

[00:27:10] So maybe a couple of hours sleep in that. But we probably talked on and off for about 6 hours together. And by the end of that conversation, because he told me at the beginning of that conversation, I'm not religious. By the end of that conversation, he said to me, you have made me think about Jesus in a way I've never, ever thought about him before. 

[00:27:31] And I thank you. And he actually thanked me. Now, I don't know where Andrew is. I don't know. Well, what will happen to Andrew's journey? But I saw that as a little bit of a book of X moment. It's like, had I, had I said, Oh, Lord, I didn't get an upgrade. Why not? And I'm throwing my, my toys out of the stroller sort of thing. 

[00:27:50] Then I could have been angry and missed the moment. But in something as simple as a plane flight, I just said, Lord, please forgive me. The seat you have placed me on, maybe it is a strategic seat for a conversation for someone. And I think to our listeners that that's where we're trying to position this. 

[00:28:08] I think the Holy Spirit is constantly on the move. He's constantly reaching out. He constantly wants to touch the world with God's mercy and grace and loving kindness and goodness. And he is wanting his people, the church, he wants us as the followers of Jesus to partner with him in being part of that conversation and not, not closing him down, but being open to the possibility that even on a plane or in a supermarket or with our next door neighbor or with that person we work with, that actually we can be part of that disruptive presence in the most positive way that brings something of the glory of God to our world. 

[00:28:52] David Harvey: I, I think. I, I've, during my sabbatical, I spent quite a lot of time with my, my spiritual director, and I realized that one of the things my spiritual director does really, really regularly is just asks me to pay attention. He, it just like, I'll tell him about something that's happened and he'll be like, okay, well, let's pay attention to this. 

[00:29:12] Is, is maybe God doing something in this. And, and I. I think that so often God can position you in a place to just have amazing moments, right? And I... Have had a few of them over the course of the summer moments where you're like, Oh my goodness, that was, that was quite incredible. 

[00:29:33] But you know, think about Peter, he has this vision of, sheets and animals and he pays attention to it. And we have this incredible Cornelius moment, Philip pays attention to the fact that the Holy Spirit tells him go wander in the desert and and then he pays attention to an Ethiopian eunuch reading Isaiah. 

[00:29:53] I, I, I wonder if that's one of the things is just, what does it look like to just pay a little bit more attention to, to hang around in conversations, to, to just be aware of the fact that, your neighbor, your work colleague, your school friend, they're constantly dropping hints to what God's doing in their life, even though they might not know it. 

[00:30:15] And if we pay attention to that, and I find the world, and I think the last few years of. COVID things have caused us all to become a little selfish a little more selfish, perhaps that we think a lot more about our own little bubbled space. And I think what the Holy Spirit is showing us in acts is that when you pay attention, he is working God's spirit is, is, is, is turning in all of these sorts of places. 

[00:30:46] And so I like, I love that story, but you on the plane, John, I feel like that's. That is an act story. It's just, being open to the possibility that. In even the moments that are disruptive and, and, and uncomfortable for ourselves, God is working in this moment. And and, and, and sometimes he is, and sometimes he isn't, I, I, I have had moments where like you, where I've thought, wonder what's going on here. 

[00:31:14] And to this day, I don't know what was going on there. It's not like, I don't think our listeners, will hear us as people that wander around constantly encountering these type of moments. But paying attention to what the Holy Spirit is doing in your life in one moment is, is about trying to be attentive to that all the time, isn't it? 

[00:31:32] And and being prepared for the surprise. And, and, and maybe that's what Acts is teaching us, that God is present to these things. And actually all of these stories only need a tiny little bit of inattention and they all go very differently, don't they? 

[00:31:48] John Andrews: They do. They do.