Sent by the Spirit | Disruptive Presence 60

We arrive at our 60th episode on Acts! True to form in this series we don't get through as much in this episode as we imagined we would! Right at the start of Acts 13, there's this beautiful little sequence about the Holy Spirit in Antioch...

...and we loved it!

Episode 117 of the Two Texts Podcast | Disruptive Presence 60

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Transcript

 AI generated transcript

[00:00:00] David: Well, John, recap of the last episode is over. We are feeling thoroughly excited about Acts as always. And we're in chapter 13 and reading verse 4 through 12 today. 

[00:00:17] John: Yeah, very excited about this. And we, we had beautiful reflections, I think, on those first few verses of chapter 13, and it really feels like, from verse four onwards, we are launching into something that feels genuinely adventurous and exciting and beyond. And so it's really, it's really going to be fascinating to see where the Holy Spirit's disruptive presence takes us next. 

[00:00:42] David: Well, I'm going to read it and then let's just dive in. No promises that we'll actually get through all 12, all, sorry, eight, sorry, of these verses, not even 12 today. But Here we go. Verse 4 of chapter 13. So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleucia. And from there they sailed to Cyprus. 

[00:01:03] When they arrived at Salamis, they proclaimed the Word of God in the synagogue of the Jews. And they had John also to assist them. When they had gone through the whole island as far as Paphos, they met a certain magician, a Jewish false prophet named Bar Jesus. He was with Proconsul Sergius Paulus, an intelligent man who summoned Barnabas and Saul and wanted to hear the word of God. 

[00:01:30] But the magician Elimas, for that is the translation of his name, opposed them and tried to turn the Proconsul away from the faith. But Saul... Also known as Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked intently at him and said, You son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, full of all deceit and villainy, will you not stop making crooked the straight paths of the Lord? 

[00:01:58] And now listen, the hand of the Lord is against you, and you will be blind for a while, unable to see the sun. Immediately mist and darkness came over him, and he went about groping for someone to lead him by the hand. When the proconsul saw what had happened, he believed, for he was astonished at the teaching about the Lord. 

[00:02:21] John: Absolutely beautiful, beautiful stuff. I, I think the last time that we chatted, you ended the podcast on a just beautiful thought. And we were reflecting on this idea of pay attention to the Holy Spirit. Just listen to the Holy Spirit. Just give the Holy Spirit a chance to speak. And, and with that echoing in my ears coming into this episode. 

[00:02:43] I couldn't help but see that this, these group of believers and Paul, Saul and Barnabas and, and John Mark are doing just that. If you look at our previous little reading from, from verse two and three, why they're worshiping the Holy Spirit said, set apart for me. Barnabas and Saul, for the work to which I have called them. 

[00:03:08] So after they had fasted and prayed, they placed their hands on them and sent them off, or loosed them off. And then it says, the two of them, sent on their way by the Holy Spirit. And you, my goodness, you put two and three and four together, you're just getting Oh, hold on then, this isn't just a good idea, this isn't just a strategic plan that a group of clever leaders have come up with, this is Well, the Holy Spirit is doing something here. 

[00:03:36] Now, how he spoke, how they heard, they're all, they're all conversations for conjecture, but they've heard something from the Holy Spirit. In obedience to that, the church at Antioch have loosed. These two men and John Mark as well who's gone with them and then we're told as if, as if we need to be reminded they're now sent by the Holy Spirit in this context and I just love that what we're about to experience now in this new episode, this new gentile feeling trajectory is not a fluke. 

[00:04:15] It's not an idea. It's not a strategic plan. It's the heart of God and you get this incredible sense that right at the beginning, the saturation of the Holy Spirit is in the sending and in the calling and in the separating and I just, I just loved that the way and with our reflection last time, it really stood out to me. 

[00:04:37] David: It's gorgeous, isn't it? I I, and it's interesting how, that language about the heart of God, if you actually lean on into Paul's sermons that he speaks at 13, you feel this sense of this awareness of resonating with the heart of God. Paul talks about David and, and these sorts of things. I, I, I was struck by that as well. 

[00:05:00] This, this sense of, of what's going on there, that beautiful connection. We always say this, don't leave the headings are added later, but that run from two, three, four. I love that you picked up. On that is, is, is just, it's, it's gorgeous, John. So yeah, thanks for, thanks for, for, for, for spotting that right from the off. 

[00:05:22] Cause as we were reading the text, I was thinking, man, we might not get much beyond verse four here because of this. 

[00:05:32] John: Yeah, yeah. And it's that sense of, I think it's, it's remembering that at the heart of the book of Acts, there is a sentence in all of this that though there are some circumstances that seem to lean into that, like the persecution that scatters the believers. There does seem to feel and be a guiding hand of strategy, a guiding hand of the Holy Spirit in all of these stories. 

[00:06:02] And though this is probably being repeated in different areas in the early church, we're now following the story of particularly two men with John Mark with them, but particularly two men and how the Holy Spirit is specifically leading them towards that and again, how, how sort of, I don't know if you noticed this David, but like how matter of fact it was, there was no, it's like the Holy Spirit speaks, the leadership team of Antioch go, okay, they've prayed and fasted about it, right? 

[00:06:33] You can go and then Paul, Saul and Barnabas just go and head immediately to the closest port sort of just down, down the road, 16 miles down the road to, to the, to the nearest port at Seleucia in order to sail somewhere. Now, there's no indication the Holy Spirit is saying, I want you to go to Seleucia, or I want you to go to Cyprus, or I want, it's just like, The sentence is, okay, go, go, because wherever they go, they're going to be going in a direction where men and women have not heard this amazing story that they're carrying with them. 

[00:07:12] So at one level, it feels dramatic and another level, the reaction of those involved seems very sort of matter of fact in, in how they respond to the Holy Spirit. 

[00:07:24] David: I was thinking about the connection as well to how we think about the Holy Spirit in that sort of stuff, John. So if we can hold, that two, three, four passage in mind for a second. So while they're worshiping the Lord and fasting, The Holy Spirit said, set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I've called them. 

[00:07:46] Then after fasting and praying, they laid hands on them and sent them off. So being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleucia. And I was thinking about how we have this tendency sometimes to imagine that the Holy Spirit only works through these blinding light, revelationary moments. And when actually I think what we see in scripture is, is that the Holy Spirit and God work in what I'd call very incarnational ways. 

[00:08:17] I mean, we see it most specifically in Jesus, that God saves the world by becoming flesh and blood amongst us, right? But the, actually, the Holy Spirit's... Preference, and correct me or push back if you think this is too strong, the Holy Spirit's preference is to work through us in incarnational ways, right? 

[00:08:38] The Holy Spirit can work completely without us. Like, you and I were saying, just even as we're about to record this episode, we're telling stories about The Holy Spirit doesn't even need us ultimately, but it seems the Holy Spirit's preference is to work through us. And, and here, there's this moment about the laying on of hands and the releasing of them into this work. 

[00:08:59] And it's, it's interesting, when I read I did a this is my confession, John, when I was prepping for this episode, I read verse four first, and then I found myself asking the question, Oh, how did they know they were sent out by the Holy Spirit? But what's fascinating is in the first two verses, chapter of, verse two and verse three, the Holy Spirit says to them, set them apart for me, for I have called them. 

[00:09:22] But then it's the fasting, the praying and the laying on of hands. By the church community that actually sends them out, but that laying on of hands and fasting is then interpreted as being sent out by the Holy Spirit. So act is actually very matter of fact, that this. What we might say human behavior, fasting, praying, laying on of hands is then described by acts as the Holy Spirit's work. 

[00:09:50] And I actually like that. I have in mind, I think that, I think if, if, if any of our listeners are part of a church that follows the lectionary, the reading this weekend from the gospel is where Jesus says to the disciples, whatever you bind on earth is bound in heaven and what you release on earth. Is released in heaven. 

[00:10:11] And here we have, you alluded to it in the Greek, they place hands on them and then release them, right? And then the next thing we see is. They're released. They are out on their way. And yet it's amazing to me that Luke interprets this releasing as sent by the Holy Spirit, not sent by the Church of Antioch, even though all the behavior we see is the Church of Antioch. 

[00:10:36] Maybe I'm belaboring a point, but I love that incarnational interchange of where the work of the Christians and the work of the Holy Spirit is becoming synonymous. Is that making sense? That's what I'm scratching at, John. 

[00:10:49] John: absolutely, I'm with that. Totally. There'd be no pushback from me on that. And, and in fact, I, it seems that one of the things we see in the book of X is the honor, the respect, the, the place that the Holy Spirit gives this called a community. So, so the fact that you, you don't just have. Separate Saul and Barnabas for the work that I've called them to. 

[00:11:15] And then next thing, they've gone, but you get this, this interaction, cooperation of this local community with this idea and, and Paul Saul and Barnabas don't just go, but they wait until they are loosed. And, and I, I think there's, there's also a dynamic. Understanding of though we're going to focus on the actions of Barnabas and Saul the reason that they're able to go where they go is because a dynamic Christian community has Cooperated with the Holy Spirit and loosed them to this work And in fact, I know we're jumping the gun a little bit But of course if you fast forward down to the end of chapter 14 Barnabas and Paul then return to this very church and give a report on what they're doing. 

[00:12:11] So there's a sense in which something, something gorgeous is going on here in terms of the cooperation of the church in the sentness of the Holy Spirit. But also the fact that Saul and Barnabas recognize that they, they can't just go, now maybe I'm overcooking this, they can't just go but they need to be And, and actually being loosed somehow looses them into an authority of being sent. 

[00:12:45] Now, I know it's a very complicated, maybe, conversation, but over the years as a follower of Jesus, I've seen people who felt that they've been sent just go. And I totally understand why. I totally understand why. But I think that the normal celebration... praetory pattern should be. Don't just go, but be loosed. 

[00:13:07] Be sent both by, by the, the, the call of God, whatever we understand that to be, and also the affirmation of a Christian community that has prayed and fasted. And in a sense, by loosing them, Has aligned and agreed and affirmed the decision of the Holy Spirit to set them apart. Does that, I, I know that's quite complex, but I, and, and that can make our head hurt a little bit, but I think we're, there's a, it's worth drilling into that. 

[00:13:37] I, I think we, we so often see the call of God almost comes to an individual and it's like nothing to do with the Christian community that they're a part of. And I think that's a wrong extreme. And then we see another extreme, which the call of God gets stifled because a Christian community is not listening to the Holy Spirit. 

[00:13:54] So, so I think the way this is framed, it's challenging both ends of that extreme to the local community saying, listen to the Holy Spirit, affirm what he's saying, but to the person being sent, actually don't just go make sure you're loosed so that then there is a going in authority, if that makes sense. 

[00:14:14] David: Well, I'm really excited that you bring this up because I actually, this was what was in my mind as I, as I read this passage. I thought, wow, this is, this is actually. an insight into the development of what becomes later church tradition. And I, I think the fact that within Pentecostal and charismatic circles, we've often ignored this is to our loss. 

[00:14:41] And I, again, like you, I say, this is somebody that takes my Pentecostalism very, very seriously, but. The laying on of hands, I think, is actually a profoundly significant biblical tradition of anointing of actually people, saying yes, and I've been thinking through, like, in, in, in your, in your church historical tradition, outside of the free churches, like, let me just take, for example, if you were an Anglican, you've got your baptism where somebody holds you and puts you into the water, right? 

[00:15:16] And baptism is, is not something you can do to yourself. Someone has to do it to you. You then would have your confirmation where somebody will lay hands on you, right? If you pursued into missionary activity, you take holy orders, you would be ordained into the clergy as a deacon where. 

[00:15:35] Hands would be laid onto you then as a priest or hands would be laid onto you. And then maybe, maybe one day you might be, called to be a bishop. And then again, another group of people would, and they'd lay hands on you. But in all of those ceremonies, the, like the ordination ceremony. With an Anglican tradition requires a word from the congregation, a word from the bishops and a word from the person being ordained and all three must agree. 

[00:16:01] This is the call that God has placed on my life. And it actually, and the church has been doing this for. 2000 years. And then I think what happened is our tradition came along and we decided that we would, and I understand how we did this. I understand what we're rejecting, but we've ended up in a sort of place now where one person can raise their hand and say, this is what the Holy Spirit is saying to me. 

[00:16:23] And a lot of the times we all feel like. Oh, we can have no part in that now, whereas I think what you're scratching at in act and what I'm saying is actually you can see the church has attempted to do this throughout a lot of its history is the community has a good role in the sending and actually a necessary role. 

[00:16:41] You can't lay hands on yourself. You can't, you can't say I'm now called to be sent out by the Holy Spirit. Let me lay hands on myself. There's a beautiful submission to, I need somebody else to do this for me. Because then that community, as you point, they now are part of the ownership of this mission. 

[00:16:58] We are sending you out to this. So maybe I'm belaboring the point now as well, John, but I actually, I think, maybe let me try and phrase it like this. What we're seeing subtly in Acts here is a resistance to the free spirit, a resistance to the, I can do what I want as long as I can say that the Holy Spirit's called me to do it. 

[00:17:21] A a actually, if the Holy Spirit's called you to do it, there should be some other people that are vouching for that with you and, and releasing you to that. I mean, am I saying what you're saying? Are we, are we kind of aligned on that? Yeah. Mm-hmm. 

[00:17:34] John: I think so. I think so. And I think, I think pastorally over the years, I've, I've experienced a very positive side of this and a very negative side of this. A negative side where someone plays what I call the God, the God card. Once someone says, God has said And they're doing that to use your language in the free spirit sort of way. 

[00:17:56] But what they're essentially saying to me is, I don't want you in any way, shape or form to either push back on this or speak into this or make a comment on this because I'm just playing the card. And then I've seen the other side of it where people are saying, I, pastor, I just feel like. God is speaking to me. 

[00:18:16] Can you help me make sense of this? Can you help me? Because I want, I, I not only want to obey God, but I, I want to also do that in a way that, that reflects God's commitment to the local church. So, so in, in one, you're able to absolutely, in the most positive dynamics, of course, you're able to contribute, you're able to own, you're able to understand. 

[00:18:40] In some cases, you're able to resource and you're able to send. In other cases, it feels like, Ooh, I've sort of been held to ransom on this, and, and you've left me with nowhere to go. The, the sense of what we're getting here is total buy in, total cooperation. There's a listening to the Holy Spirit. A community that then affirms that idea and then loses people and people are then go, people then go in the sentness of the Holy Spirit having been loose. 

[00:19:13] Now, I, I know that's not always possible and, and being humans, we have breakdown and every, everything's not always the way we want it to be, but I think there's something here that we rush past. 

[00:19:25] David: Yeah. 
 

[00:19:25] John: Because we're rushing to Cyprus, we're rushing to the Gentile world, and we actually miss a profound conversation here of detail, of separation and calling by the Holy Spirit, prayer, fasting, and loosing by the local church, and the sentness of of Barnabas and Saul to a role that doesn't simply leave them isolated as two dynamic people, but ultimately there is a community of believers owning and investing into this project to such an extent that later on Barnabas and Saul can return to this group and both report to them and be supported by them. 

[00:20:07] So I think there's a lot going on there that we mustn't rush past in our, in our enthusiasm to get to the Gentile world. 

[00:20:15] David: And I would say to any listener, pursuing, whatever they're feeling called to, like, get somebody to lay hands on you, have somebody pray with you have agreement because then there's this little line, John, I don't know if you noticed, I love how understated it is. So, so being sent by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleucia. 

[00:20:35] I noticed again, just as a sub point that you left me reading the text with all the difficult to pronounce. With place names in it. So that's not changed over 

[00:20:43] John: a good man. You're such a good man. 

[00:20:45] David: But look at this little, just this little sentence squeezed into the second half of verse five. Oh, and they just happened to have John with them , assisting, it's a, it's not it's not a bad assistant to have, But I am reading in the gaps here, right? 

[00:21:03] Is there in the gaps here space for us to imaginatively wonder that because they are sent out with the authority of the church in Antioch, because hands are laid upon them in approval and they are released in the spirit to go, They also get buy in from others. 

[00:21:25] So John now is happy to be part of this mission. Now I'm going to come along and assist you in this because we all are approving that the Holy spirit is in this project. And my worry about what happens with the enthusiasm. And I actually, I understand from personal experience, the enthusiasm of, I feel called to do something. 

[00:21:43] And I want to just go and do it on my own. Who cares what anybody else thinks? The problem is you are, maybe you are called to do that. And maybe it is everybody else that's taking their time to come up to it. Maybe all of those things are true, but if you decide to head out on your own without the community, you are heading out on a lonely journey and an isolated journey. 

[00:22:07] But what I think is beautiful in the subtleties of this text is because they head out. Can I say properly? 

[00:22:13] John: Yeah. 
 

[00:22:13] David: When they actually head out, they're not alone. They actually have some pretty significant support alongside them. And then to the beautiful sense, just looking at this story that comes, like if John wasn't, if you weren't told John was there, you wouldn't know John was there because they're sent out in the right authority. 

[00:22:35] They have the right support. As a result, it almost looks as if they don't. 

[00:22:41] John: Yeah. 
 

[00:22:41] David: which is what great community does. 

[00:22:44] John: Absolutely. And it's really fascinating. There's a lovely little link again back to the end of chapter 12, which we, a million years ago, I think, touched on. If you look at the end of chapter 12, it just says that Barnabas and Saul returned from Jerusalem, so back to Antioch, and took with them John. 

[00:23:03] also called Mark. Now it's interesting. It's just, they just take him. But if you look at verse five, it's got a little bit of a qualification, which leans into your conversation. And they also had John who ministered with them or a helper somehow. It literally, Underroar is, is the word there, which is absolutely gorgeous. 

[00:23:26] So you get this, this sense. Hold on. We've moved from in the end of chapter 12 or that just took him along. But now there's a wee development there. And even though he's, he's in the background, you get this little development that he's not just tagging along. He's tagging along now as an underroar, as a support worker to this incredible, Sentence moment. 

[00:23:51] And so you get a little bit of a thing that whatever's going on in the gaps in Antioch, John Mark has sort of moved up a little bit. He's grown a bit. He's moved into something. And, because there's an echo here for me of Abraham and Lot, Lot just goes along with Abraham and you get a sense he never really buys into the project, does Lot, I think when he gets his first chance to make a choice, he chooses for himself, John, Mark, it feels like he's going along, but this lovely little phrase that's added in at the end of verse 5. 

[00:24:27] John was with them as their helper. And, and the word helper, it's a significant word. Under roar. Significant word there. It's suggesting he's not just now tagging along, but he's buying in, and there is something lovely, I think, going on. Does that, does that make sense, or do you think I'm reading too much into that? 

[00:24:44] I think there's a nice little connector between the end of chapter 12 and chapter 13 verse 5. That little ender of just going along and now a helper. 

[00:24:55] David: yes. No, I, I, I'd say I, I really, I really like that, John. That's, that's a, that's a gorgeous gorgeous observation that, that he's, that he's there. He's there with them. And I, and I know you are, you love the, the, the story of John Mark, but, if you hold to church tradition, that he is. Present, potentially the young man in the garden in Mark, like what a story this man has. 

[00:25:19] He just keeps appearing, he has, he'd be a great traveling companion just simply for the stories he would tell. But, 

[00:25:25] John: I'm sure. 

[00:25:26] David: but I love this idea of under roar this, this sort of, he's, yeah, he, he's carrying weight with them. And, and, and of course, those of us that know the story of acts know that. 

[00:25:37] John Mark's decisions later caused fracture, which again actually speaks to the fact that he is a significant person. His presence or absence does make a difference. Barnabas and Saul and Paul are going to fall out over John Mark's behavior. Whereas if John Mark wasn't actually that important or helpful a person, eh, well, if he's left, no big deal, right? 

[00:25:57] John: Great observation. And also, what's really nice about that observation, David, it moves then the conversation about John Mark beyond the fact that he's, he's related to Barnabas. 

[00:26:10] David: mm, 
 

[00:26:11] John: So that's, this is one of the little sort of hang around undercurrent thoughts that because the two men are related that the feeling is that maybe Barnabas like has a soft spot because he's a relative, but actually when you when you feed into something like here, he's the under roar. 

[00:26:26] He's a significant player in this team. Actually, that elevates the conversation to a proper level. 

[00:26:34] David: yes, 
 

[00:26:35] John: not just then someone defending a relative or someone attacking somebody's relative. This is actually, this young man was a significant part of our team and this created a problem for us. And I think it does make sense of the argument that then happens a bit down the line, which we'll probably get to by next June or something. 

[00:26:58] David: I, and I was thinking then just of, just to give a heads up to that Mark arguing, Paul and Barnabas fall out because of Mark's decisions. But you know, in second Timothy four, you get Paul again, get Mark and bring him with you for he is useful. 

[00:27:14] John: Useful. 

[00:27:15] David: So, so I think we're seeing a character who keeps popping up. 

[00:27:19] And again, if you hold to church tradition, that he was somebody who also was with Jesus, which I, I like that tradition. That's maybe not the best argument I've ever made, but like he is just present in all these places and he is significant. And and, and that, that helps us to see that, but, but I love that notion. 

[00:27:38] That being sent out properly with the Holy Spirit and the laying on of hands creates this buffer. Can I say for, for Paul and Barnabas that they're heading out secure that they don't, they don't need. John Mark to see anything as such, it's just good to have him there. I think of how many traditions in the world who just like having people around, when, when things are tough, people being around is helpful to us. 

[00:28:07] And of course, and this will be our next episode, what actually happens when they head out. Is a sort of pretty, they head out into a pretty intense moment, don't they? Which which is, which I mean, we can, we can dig into it when we get to it. But it struck me as to how many residencies there are in this story. 

[00:28:24] Chapter 13 of almost opposites to Paul's experience of the laying on of hands. Taking him away from being blind. Now we have somebody resisting the Holy Spirit and that leads them into a place of being unable to see. So, so I'm excited for us when we get to the episode where we now unpack the story that happens, but I'm hoping our listeners can hold in mind all this episode of that they're about to jump into with these, these people is all premised on. 

[00:28:57] They are sent out in the authority of the Holy Spirit.