Priscilla and Aquila: Fellow Gospel Workers | Disruptive Presence 98

In which John and David delve into the significance of Priscilla and Aquila as a ministry couple, their role as fellow workers with Paul, and the broader theme of gender equality and partnership in ministry. They also explore the idea of discipleship and ministry, the role of Phoebe, and the concept of ruling the earth as male and female made in the image of God. The conversation draws connections between Acts 18 and Romans 16, highlighting the unfolding vision of humanity in the church.

See Paula Gooder's Pheobe which we mentioned in the episode

Episode 153 of the Two Texts Podcast | Disruptive Presence 98

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Transcript

John (00:43.022)
Well, David, it is just so good to be back. And last time we were reflecting from X 18, roundabout verse 18 to 23. And we just got absolutely loaded into Paul's vow and the whole conversation around that. I found that very, very helpful, very enriching. I know we're only scratching on the surface of that. But again, the whole idea of of vows in general.

of the Jewishness of that with Paul's new -found way in terms of following the Messiah and how that works and even how we as a Christian community read that back to our Jewish world. And I found that incredibly stimulating and helpful. And hopefully our listeners did too. I don't know how you felt about it, but it was great.

David (01:10.429)
Mm.

David (01:33.501)
Yeah, I hope that people captured the heart of what we were wrestling with and on both sides, I think our desire to read scripture faithfully, but not in such a way that creates division in the wrong places. You know, I think we always are at pains to argue that we genuinely believe that Jesus only makes sense in the whole of scripture. There's not a sort of

John (01:51.214)
Hmm.

David (02:01.725)
part one that's wrong and part two that's correct, but Jesus is the unfolding of God's plan that begins in Genesis. And then I think also people probably have come to expect from us that we have a desire to learn from the deep wisdoms of our ancestors that perhaps sometimes our chaotic ways of modern living are not the best for us. And so learning from things like vows and doing them.

And we want to keep saying this, not for any salvific purpose, but because of what they do in us and what they do for us towards God. So I love the conversation, John. I really, really enjoyed it. And as is often the case, we realized that there can be a lot in a sentence of Acts.

John (02:50.83)
Indeed, indeed. And we're sort of still in that sentence. We were in verse 18 when we dealt with this whole idea of sort of Paul taking that vow. But there's a lovely little bit before it. And I just wanted to hang on to before we move on. And it says this in verse 18. Then he left the brothers and sisters and sealed for Syria accompanied by Priscilla and Aquila. And, and, and.

I was just struck by the fact that this is a couple now, the second time they've been mentioned in the context of X 18 and they, they sort of keep popping up. And in fact, how did we, how did we look at it? They pop up in 183 of X 1818, later on 1826 when Paul leaves them. They're mentioned again, or at least Priscilla is mentioned in the Aquila.

in Romans 16, that incredible conclusion to Paul's letter where he lists so many outstanding people, many of them women and Jews and non -Jews within that context. They pop up again in 1 Corinthians 16 and 19 and then we have Prisca and Aquila in 2 Timothy 4 19. So we get these six

beautiful references to them. And each time, there's sort of this, this couple, this dynamic, dynamic duo. And I quite like the idea that we've got this couple in ministry, working together and serving together, having come from Rome because of the expulsion. And here they are serving with Paul. And, and, you know, when we get to the next part of our

David (04:46.653)
Mm.

John (04:50.222)
X 18 conversation, when we eventually get to a policy, they will play a significant role in the context of a policy. But I just wanted to take a moment to reflect on the fact that they're introduced to us as a couple and they continue to be introduced to us as a couple. And they seem to show a dynamic ability to work in partnership in ministry. And, you know, I just interested in your reflections. I noticed it just as a.

David (05:12.733)
Hmm.

John (05:19.022)
One more we comment and this may be nothing or it may be something. But if the six references to the couple only and only two of them Aquila is mentioned first and then the other four Priscilla precedes Aquila. Now that could just be like it's easier to say Priscilla and Aquila than to say Aquila. So I don't want to make mischief out of that, but it is interesting that as a couple.

David (05:30.621)
Mm -hmm.

John (05:46.606)
she gets mentioned four times as the first name and he is mentioned twice as the first name. I don't know if you had any reflections on that, but we certainly see them as a ministry couple in the context of that. Any thoughts on it before we move on? Because I just thought it have popped up and we haven't really said anything about them as we reflected.

David (05:55.069)
Mmm.

David (06:06.845)
I don't think you, I mean maybe you are intentionally being a mischievous, but I don't think you are being mischievous. I actually, I mean my subtle pushback, not to disagree, and our listeners know what I mean when I say this tongue in cheek slightly, I actually don't think it is easier to say Priscilla over Aquila, even though it is maybe in terms of the word shapes.

John (06:33.774)
Yeah. Yeah.

David (06:33.949)
I'd ask, I mean, in terms of thinking of the power of patriarchal notions of the superiority of men, I would think of, I would say to people, you know, think about trying to construct a sentence that says, you know, gentlemen and ladies, not ladies and gentlemen, or sisters and brothers, not brothers and sisters, or, you know, to address missis and mister, right? Like these things don't roll off the tongue easily.

not because of their word shapes, but because we've just gotten used to a world wherein you refer to the man first, right? Or, you know, so it's, you know, it's unusual to see even at legal levels, if my wife and I get a letter, it's always the husband's name that seems to come before the wife's name, even like we just got our new, you know, city tax bill in and my name is first for some reason.

John (07:08.566)
Yeah.

John (07:33.39)
Yes.

David (07:33.693)
And this is a sort of way these things seem to often work. So I think it is significant that it's Priscilla and then Aquila. I think, I mean, you wouldn't want to hang your whole house on Paul making a point, except that Paul seems to go out of his way to make points like this elsewhere. That it speaks to that.

I love, and I know I regularly quote him throughout this series, Jennings says this, he says, Luke does not give us with Priscilla and Aquila a domestic order or a vision of gender complementarity, but of disciples together. This is by far the best working definition of a Christian couple. So Jennings point is, actually Luke isn't really making a point.

John (08:15.662)
Mmm.

John (08:20.91)
It's beautiful.

John (08:26.734)
Hmm.

David (08:26.749)
And that's the point. It's like what Luke wants you to know about Priscilla and Aquila is they were disciples, right? Which I think is what you're saying, if I've heard you properly, that the point is not, look, this is how a household should be structured, or, wait a minute, there's a point being made about men and women, is that actually Luke and Paul, can I say it like this, are so far beyond that debate that they just see Priscilla and Aquila.

John (08:35.694)
Mm. Mm.

David (08:54.717)
as equal disciples of Jesus who are married to one another. So therefore, this is what a Christian couple should actually look like. And I find that really inspiring, John.

John (08:57.07)
Hmm.

John (09:05.806)
Yeah, I love that. I love the idea of disciples together and clearly, you know, they are disciples together, but they've also got some ministry dynamic together as well. I was just looking, I know we'll get to it separately in a different podcast properly, but I was just scanning down the chapter, chapter 18 verses 24 through to 26. It says, when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, that's Apollos. And we'll get to him.

They invited him to their home and they explained or explained, but the explained there is definitely plural in the context of the Greek language. They explained to him the way of God more adequately. They explained. So we've got this lovely to pick up Jennings. He talks about them being disciples together, but they're also here explaining to Apollos together. Apollos is no

You know, he's not behind the door on his own learning here. This is a man that's got some serious knowledge of the scriptures, but needs a little bit of help as far as the Jesus story is concerned, having come from the baptism of John. But they explained to him the way of God more adequately. So I think within the chapter 18 of Acts, I think you've got this lovely idea of disciples together. I love that phrase of Jennings. That's beautiful.

David (10:13.853)
Yes.

John (10:31.342)
But I think we've also got ministry together here. I think these are people working in dynamic partnership together. And again, what I love about this and I don't want to make I'm genuinely not trying to make mischief, but I am I am trying to to to make a point, however, that that in Priscilla and Aquila both explaining it, there's a clear understanding from Luke here that in that explaining, there must have been teaching in that explaining there must have been.

David (10:34.147)
yes.

John (11:00.59)
some sort of exposition of the text in that explaining Priscilla is clearly influencing Apollos in some way as is Aquila. It seems forgive my facetiousness, forgive what I'm about to say, but it's not like Aquila is the one doing the talking and Priscilla is making the tea. They explain to him they're working together on this. So you get a ministry dynamic, a ministry partnership.

David (11:20.925)
Mm.

John (11:28.302)
that's it's been really, I think, explicitly, not implicitly, explicitly explained here in the highlighting of these two people. And the fact that Paul is prepared to leave them behind while he goes on shows the level of trust that he has committed to this couple as they are both disciples of Jesus, but also ministers of Jesus together as they go forward.

David (11:54.301)
Mm.

David (11:59.805)
And so that, I mean, there's a couple of things then I want to jump off to. So this, I just apologize in advance, is probably going to waylay us. And I don't know if I'm apologizing to you or our listeners or both, but we'll just see as it works out. But you triggered this, so I'm blaming you, John, at very least. But if we jump over to Romans chapter 16 quickly, right, because you alluded to it, it got me pondering.

John (12:16.59)
Okay, I'll take responsibility.

John (12:21.966)
Mm -hmm.

David (12:26.493)
There's a couple of really fascinating things that I'm pretty much hoping our listeners will love to think about. So let me let me read Romans chapter 16, verse one. I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon. So I'm going to pause it right there. So we it seems to be that Phoebe is quite likely a significant character in getting Romans to the Romans. That's the sort of.

There's a wonderful, wonderful little kind of creative biography of Phoebe out there by Paula Gooder, if any of our listeners wanted to read something fun. So she's written this book based on, she's a very, very good New Testament scholar with a lot of knowledge of context and background. And what she's done is she's created like a novel which is rooted in good New Testament scholarship, but she's created this novel about Phoebe.

Some scholars have gone as far as to say that she is likely the first reader of Romans, that Paul will have instructed her how to read Romans and she then presents it to the church in Rome, right? Which is phenomenal if you think about it in the conversation we're having that Phoebe is teaching Romans to the Romans, right? So you think of how many Bible college classes have been on Romans and how many books on Romans.

John (13:28.526)
Hmm.

John (13:34.542)
Yeah. Yeah.

John (13:46.382)
Yes.

David (13:50.781)
And the first Romans commentator was a lady. I love this, right? But, sorry, I need to go, yeah.

John (13:51.022)
Yes.

John (13:54.766)
And just to say, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And just to say then the implication is she's operating under apostolic authority. So and this is where this is where I have slight issue with the translation that she's a deacon. I do like the general translation, a servant of the Lord, because I think it lays weight to other things. But I think that the idea of deacon, though it's there, I think it's a wee bit misleading.

David (14:04.637)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

David (14:16.221)
Mm -hmm.

John (14:24.206)
I think here's a woman, here's a woman who is clearly operating at the very least under apostolic authority to do whatever Paul is asking her to do. So it's it's it's it's quite if she is if she is that reader, if she is that explainer of the letter, she's doing it because Paul has given her his his authority to go and she's operating out of that authority, which is which means kind of say this carefully.

David (14:35.485)
Okay.

David (14:46.877)
Yes.

David (14:50.493)
Okay. Yeah.

John (14:53.134)
She has that authority. You have authority because you're under authority. And I think there's something really delicious there worthy of exploring.

David (14:57.245)
Yes.

David (15:01.829)
That's fascinating, I think, because I agree with you, which is, ironically, which is why I actually like the translation, Deacon, right? Because I would, how I see this is funny, I actually fully agree with what you're saying in terms of the authority. So in, I'm reading Deacon as, this is a person upon whom an apostle has placed their hands and anointed them, you know, in this sort of...

John (15:27.598)
Mm.

David (15:31.101)
Like, you know, Paul's later instructions of the definition of a deacon, this person's like all of these things. They've been anointed and commissioned by the apostle to carry that authority. Whereas I've sometimes felt that the servant translation implies, just somebody that serves in the church, right? Whereas, so we're both, it's fascinating. This is what I love about two texts and I love about reading the Bible is I think we're both saying exactly the same thing. Phoebe has the authority of Paul.

John (15:34.446)
Yeah.

John (15:48.462)
Yeah, yeah, no, I get you.

David (16:00.285)
to come and proclaim Romans to these Romans. She's a teacher of the church now. And I think, and that's the, I mean, it's a beautiful example of why reading the Bible with friends is important. Because there's the both, we will both come at the text with our own things and actually want to make the same point, but do it in different ways, which is the joy of the diversity of it. So I don't disagree with you at all. Phoebe is not, there's Phoebe, let's just send her.

John (16:19.982)
Hmm.

David (16:28.381)
Like she's on an apostolic commission. She has the apostolic authority to say this is how this text works. Am I right when I say you and I are agreeing on that? Maybe we just translate it deconservant and then we're both happy. But this is the point I then thought was fascinating that hopefully...

John (16:28.622)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's brilliant. We are agreeing on that and and love that. Love that.

I

David (16:53.597)
Everyone's ears light up a little bit. Your ears can't light up. Your ears pick up a little bit. I commend to you our sister, Phoebe, a deacon of the church at Cairnchrae. So now I think the general feeling amongst Roman scholarship is that Paul writes Romans on his second, sorry, third trip, his third missionary trip.

John (17:03.054)
Hmm, indeed, yes.

David (17:18.589)
But I think our listeners should pay attention to the fact that Phoebe comes from the place that Paul passes through on his way back to Jerusalem. And I found myself wondering, is this where he meets her? Is this where that he realizes this is a trustworthy, you know, and he doesn't know at the time, but we ends up back in that space. He's now like, I mean, there's all arguments about this in all of Pauline scholarship, but the broad.

John (17:23.342)
Yes.

David (17:43.805)
argument seems to be that Paul writes Romans from Corinth on his third missionary journey sort of thing. And so is this where he meets Phoebe? Is that tracking with you? Do you like that thought?

John (17:48.462)
Yeah, yeah.

John (17:58.638)
It's tracking, totally tracking. And to remind our listeners, Kinkria is about six miles or so up the road or down the road from Corinth. So it all makes sense.

David (18:09.917)
And so notice then, following along, actually, I wasn't going to make this point, but I think it's important to. So Phoebe, so that you may welcome her in the Lord as is fitting for the saints. So think about that. Paul's now sent her out with the authority to be welcomed as any of the saints, right? And help her in whatever she may require for you, because she has been a benefactor of many and of myself as well. So like to John and I's point earlier,

John (18:23.918)
Yes.

David (18:38.653)
Regardless of whether you translate this servant or deacon, Paul saying she is a help. There's no inferiority being communicated here about Phoebe by her standard as a servant of the church, which I love.

John (18:52.878)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And yeah, and the word that's often translated benefactor, supporter, it's a bit stronger than that, David, isn't it? I mean, like, you know, prostasis is an idea of someone set before. It's often translated in terms of someone who leads or

David (19:05.181)
Mm -hmm.

David (19:10.045)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

John (19:22.19)
rules or direct. So it can mean benefactor. But if you add prosthesis to the other stuff we said, it's putting a wee bit of, this is interesting. It feels like Phoebe is carrying some serious, that's used 21st century language, leadership weight in this context, which just as an opening salvo of Roman 16 is, whoa, that's an interesting observation.

David (19:22.237)
Mm.

David (19:33.917)
Yeah.

David (19:42.205)
Yes. Yes.

David (19:49.661)
Yeah. Yes. No, no, I think you are. And I think this rolls back to even this use of the word deacon. Like, I actually slightly wonder if sometimes our problem with the word deacon, if you've grown up in traditions like ours, deacons were the sort of people, and I don't mean this disrespect for my dad was a deacon when I remember as a little kid, but deacons sort of looked after some of the kind of...

John (19:51.63)
from botanists. Am I overcooking that or do you think that's there?

David (20:15.549)
legal stuff for the church and they kind of set out chairs and cleaned up stuff. Whereas if you read about deacons in the early church, or if you read about deacons in the Catholic church today, they're the people that stand for the justice of the church. They're the people that proclaim the gospel to the church. Oftentimes the deacons are the preachers. So I think what's happened is we've minimized the role down.

John (20:41.038)
Yeah, lost language.

David (20:44.733)
so that we hear Phoebe's role as a minimalist one. And what Paul's saying is, no, she's prostasis. Prostasis is like she stood at the front. She's holding the line for me. And there's no, my goodness, we're so obsessed with power that unless we're the king, we assume everything else is inferior. And I just think it's important for readers of the New Testament to know that the New Testament offers.

John (20:55.79)
Mm. Mm.

John (21:07.534)
Mmm.

David (21:14.813)
unity in diversity, that it is possible to have different roles. And I'm not arguing for a male -female complementarianism here, but it is possible to have different roles and them not be inferior or looked down upon or disregarded. Phoebe is not described as an apostle here, but she is described as carrying apostolic authority. And I think that's key. And that's important from a point that's going to come up. And this is where...

John (21:16.974)
Yeah.

John (21:29.326)
Absolutely. Yeah.

John (21:37.87)
For sure. For sure.

David (21:43.485)
on our huge Weylai moment into Romans 16. Then you get verse three, so after we've had this amazing thing about Phoebe, don't miss it's a woman as well we're talking about here, now greet Prisca and Aquila. So this seems to be a shorter version of Priscilla's name. And this is what I love about this, and this is what brought us here ultimately. In Greek it says, they are sunargoos, right? Like workers with me, like, you know, these are like co -workers.

John (22:05.27)
Sooner or later.

John (22:10.954)
Yeah.

David (22:12.893)
So I kind of, I get the NIV translation of who work with me, but I wouldn't translate it that way myself. I would translate it as coworkers. And the reason is because for Paul, it's sun er gos, en Cristo, in Christ, right? And in Christ doesn't just mean, like in Christ is possibly Paul's most dense theological statement, because that's, if anyone is in Christ, they are new creation. So what we get,

John (22:20.618)
Yeah. Fellow workers.

John (22:26.83)
Mmm. Mmm.

David (22:41.789)
Paul is the announcer, the proclamer of the gospel of a God who wants us to be in Christ. And Paul now is saying of Prisca and Aquila, they are co -workers with me in this project of in Christ. So I mean, it's a huge statement from Paul about how he sees Prisca and Aquila. And notice he follows up with they risk their necks, right? You know, they, for my life, they put their necks on the line.

John (22:47.95)
Yes.

John (22:56.878)
Yeah.

Massive, massive.

David (23:11.581)
And then he goes on to thank other people who greet Mary, then you get greet Andronikos and Junia, and this is where it gets, and this has caused all sorts of tailspin in the church, because listen to this sentence, greet Andronikos and Junia who were in prison with me, they are prominent of the apostles. It's like, you know, and it's...

John (23:19.79)
Mm -hmm.

John (23:29.774)
I'm on the apostles.

David (23:37.629)
in entois apostolois is the Greek, in the apostles, right? And so here we have a Pauline reference to a female apostle. And so this means a really dense passage going, I know you were saying earlier, am I being mischievous? But at very least to Jennings point, let's throw Jennings into the mix with us on this. What we're seeing here is a vision of discipleship and ministry, wherein the gender,

John (23:40.246)
Yes.

David (24:06.909)
status of the person isn't an issue. Which I think, I mean it's a huge detour, I did warn that it was going to be a big detour.

John (24:10.99)
Yeah.

John (24:18.094)
No, no. Yeah, but it's, it's absolutely just as we couldn't bypass vow in the previous podcast. I mean, you can't read that passage in X 18 and go, let's just ignore the vow. But you can't ignore now the second and third reference to him, to a couple of Priscilla and an Aquila, right? Who are they and what are they doing? And,

David (24:19.197)
But it's important, isn't it?

David (24:32.061)
Mm.

David (24:38.397)
Mm.

John (24:43.278)
It was funny, I love that Sunurgoi, that fellow workers idea. And I sort of a little while ago checked out some stuff in terms of that idea of Sunurgoi fellow workers. It's only used 13 times as far as I can see in the New Testament and Paul uses it 12 of the 13 times. And you've got some people of serious stature. Titus is in there, I think.

Timothy, of course, is in there. You know, you've you've got amazing sort of I mean, even onissimus and Mark are regarded as sooner going in the context of that. So so to put Priscilla and Aquila in the sooner going category in the fellow workers category, my goodness, it means they really they really are seen by Paul as serious people.

David (25:33.917)
Yeah.

John (25:39.726)
and stand out sort of people. And I do love this. And for me, David, there is there is a gorgeous so that's I know we love to do this, this beautiful intertextual echoes that we often deal with. But I can't read fellow workers in the context of a Priscilla and Aquila and not hear the echo to Genesis. So for me, the pre -fall Genesis story is of male and female made in the image of God.

David (26:01.149)
Mm.

John (26:09.262)
And both male and female are to rule the earth, subdue the earth and fill the earth. So it's both male and female are and it's not if the if the only thing we had in Genesis was that they were to fill the earth, then you go on. yeah, that's that's the biological synergy of male and female. We get that. But actually, it's to rule the earth. Subdue the earth and fill the earth. So there there are if can I say a for at all?

David (26:15.165)
Yes. Yes.

John (26:39.662)
You may want to argue leadership, ministry, service, ideas, all wrapped up in the idea of ruling the earth. And the ruling of the earth is not simply, it seems, the prerogative of the male part of the image of God. But male and female are charged to be, can I overcook this, but I will, fellow workers with God and His creation.

David (27:07.997)
Mm -hmm.

John (27:09.71)
So just as Paul sees Priscilla and Aquila as fellow workers with him in Christ, the first man and the first woman, we might want to argue, and I don't think it's an overstretch, were called to be fellow workers with God in creation. And I think that's something of the glorious redemptive nudge again that we're seeing here that

And I loved how you put it a little while ago. You just talked about the fact that for Luke and for Paul, this is such a non -issue that it's not an issue. They just say it. Luke just records it and it's not an issue. It's just there. A bit like the vow. It's just there. He makes the comment. If there was an issue about it, he would have commented about it. But the fact that he just references the vow and then he just references Priscilla and Aquila in the way that he does. This is a non -issue, but you just need to know it's there.

David (27:45.017)
Yes.

David (27:51.677)
Mm.

David (28:03.485)
Mm.

John (28:06.03)
And I like that idea. I like that idea.

David (28:08.829)
I think it's a gorgeous idea. I mean, it's frustrating if I can say that about Holy Scripture. It's frustrating because sometimes the problem is the silence allows people to abuse that sometimes, you know, to almost say, because Luke doesn't defend this, it's not a thing, right? And then we jump off on other texts that we see. But I love that you brought up Romans 16. And although it's detoured our talk, it hasn't really detoured our talk.

John (28:21.646)
Mmm. Mmm. Mmm.

David (28:38.653)
because you see the connection between Romans 16 and Acts 18. But what's amazing is when you're suspicious, like, hmm, it's interesting, there's a male and female working together here, you jump over to Romans 16 where they're mentioned and you realize, my goodness, there's women working. In Romans 16, we've got Prisca, who's co -worker with Paul, we've got Phoebe, a deconservant of the church with apostolic authority, we've got Junia and a...

So this idea that there's not co -workers in the kingdom, and I love the Genesis connection, John. I think, because what it made me think was, what we're saying is that the church is unfolding God's vision for humanity, that we just work together. And I think like...

John (29:29.774)
Yeah.

David (29:36.861)
They were almost perhaps even as we as we're sort of landing this conversation. Again, Jennings prompted me on this, but we've seen Ananias and Sapphira and we've seen now Priscilla and Aquila. And what's lovely about Priscilla and Aquila is we first meet them and they're lining up with Paul as tentmakers. But by the end, they're lining up with Paul as workers for the gospel. And...

John (30:00.654)
Beautiful, that's beautiful.

David (30:03.741)
And I think that's kind of a really gorgeous sort of their co -working roots out of all of these things. And the difference between Ananias and Sapphira and Priscilla and Aquila is that they allow the spirit to draw them into the gospel in a different way. Like Ananias and Sapphira see that it's important and want to be disciples, but then get caught up in their own story. And so the weight of them being co -workers with Paul in Acts,

John (30:21.806)
Mm.

David (30:33.597)
is almost offset against. This is not inevitable. It is actually possible to journey this and become Ananias and Sapphira, but these tentmakers with Paul become co -workers at a deeper and more significant level.

John (30:50.862)
leave that there. That's a brilliant end to that. Yeah, that's so good. I think.

David (30:52.253)
Okay.