Unexpected Disciples | Disruptive Presence 101

In which John and David discuss the unexpected disciples Paul encounters in Ephesus, highlighting the centrality of the Holy Spirit in the early church. In Ephesus we see how Spiritual Formation was handled immediately with a sense of urgency, keeping the Holy Spirit primary and asking good questions to guide the journey. Again, we note that the Spirit stretched across diversity, underscoring the welcoming nature of the early church.

Episode 156 of the Two Texts Podcast | Disruptive Presence 101

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Transcript

David (00:42.972)
Long and slow, John. This is episode 101 of our AXE podcast.

John (00:47.726)
Amazing. Amazing. Amazing. Yes, absolutely. To see the hundred come up a few weeks ago was incredible. So, yes, a hundred just in acts. Who knew? I think, you know, it has been incredible when I've been different places ministering and just advertised our little podcast. I've sort of said to people, look, it's a bit of a slow burn. And to give you an idea, we're sort of

on such and such an episode and we're only in chapters such and such. And when people hear that, they go, OK. So so, yeah, it's it's but I I do love the fact I think when I'm advertising to text, I say to people, I think one of the things I love about it is that there's no agenda to it. It's not like we are driving an agenda where we're using the text to produce an agenda. We are simply following the breadcrumbs of the text and seeing where it takes us and.

So, and I think that's why it's ended up that we are recording today, episode 101 of the Book of Acts. Yeah, brilliant.

David (01:52.988)
Yeah. I mean, our social media said it just the other week there, but I do laugh at how with genuine integrity, I say that we were like, should we just spend a few episodes on acts in the summer? And I remember at the end of the first recording session we did, and we barely made it beyond the first verse, I think. And we're like, okay, this is gonna take us a little longer than we thought.

John (02:07.438)
Hahaha

John (02:23.726)
And I think it is worthwhile people knowing that all of that is genuine. Like we're not, it's not like we have scoped out the next three years of podcasts or anything. It's just we are, we're seeing where we go. And although you prepare and I prepare, for example, what we're looking at today, we prepare independently and then we turn record on and we chat and we just see where it goes. And that's what I do love. I remember when we first started this together, you know, we wanted

David (02:45.884)
Mmm.

John (02:53.966)
We wanted the vibe of two friends who love Jesus, love the Bible and love the church, just sitting, having a cup of coffee together and chatting about what we've been reading. And I think somehow over the last three years, we've managed to, by God's grace, maintain that vibe. And I think that's one of the reasons our listeners maybe enjoy it so much. So I hope so anyway. I certainly enjoy it.

David (03:18.076)
I mean, I think for me what's helpful, like I always love it when we hear listeners text in or email in and say that they appreciate the insights. And I think that's what I appreciate about it. I think of countless number of times that you've brought something or hopefully I've brought something to you that we're genuinely like enlightened in the process. Like I, you know, I mean, I...

John (03:37.806)
Mm, yeah.

Completely.

David (03:44.22)
you and I both have academic levels and preaching levels spent a lot of time and acts over our lives. Yet I would say the pace and lack of agenda of reading through this book has brought so many insights to me. Because I think people particularly, and a lot of our listeners will preach sermons I know in various or lead studies and things like that. There's something about coming to a text saying I need to say something about this text and therefore,

John (03:57.742)
for sure.

David (04:12.028)
and I need to say this about this text, let me look at it through those lens. It's actually quite beautiful and this doesn't happen often in academics or in pastoral life to be able to just say I'm gonna look at this text and see what might be there and if that doesn't actually connect with what I was thinking about in the previous verse, that's not a problem. And I hope people are blessed by, I don't think that's random, I think it's just sitting.

John (04:25.774)
Let's see what it says. Yes.

John (04:32.622)
Yeah, yeah.

David (04:38.876)
There's a long tradition in the church of just sitting with the text, isn't there, and going, let's see what the text does today.

John (04:44.846)
I mean, for sure. And I know we're coming on to a very interesting moment in Chapter 19 now, but, you know, you're from a Pentecostal background. I'm from a Pentecostal background. Most of my translocal ministry is engaging in charismatic Pentecostal churches. So the easiest thing in the world would have been to drive a very clear sort of Pentecostal agenda. And actually, I think what we've tried to have the courage to do is

David (05:09.18)
Mm.

John (05:12.43)
Let's not approach this as a Pentecostal. Let's approach this as a lover of Jesus and see what the early church is saying to us through the record of Dr. Luke and if things connect in certain ways than they do. And if they don't, they don't. But let's just let it speak. Yeah. I think it's a beautiful thing. Letting it just speak without agenda. I hope we're doing that. I hope we're doing that.

David (05:16.892)
Mm.

David (05:35.804)
And that may be a tedious link into Acts 19 where we encounter actually some of the evidence as to how little agenda there was in the early church, where we stumble over surprise disciples, disciples that we don't expect to meet. So we're going to read Acts chapter 19.

John (05:41.39)
Yeah.

John (05:46.638)
Yeah.

Hmm.

John (05:52.878)
Mmm.

David (05:58.748)
And look at how heady the numbers, how high the numbers are becoming for us now. Acts chapter 19. I'm going to read verses 1 through 7 today. Paul arriving. A lot of Bibles will be a little heady where it will sort of say something like, Paul in Ephesus.

John (05:59.022)
End of video.

John (06:04.206)
hahahaha

John (06:13.358)
Yes, in emphasis. Yeah. Yeah. And maybe sort of a little warning to our listeners that having spent a bit of time studying the chapter 19 as a total for maybe some of the things we're going to talk about, this could take a while as well. 19 could take us a little while. This is a serious chapter. Huge moment, huge city. A lot going on. And verse one.

Chapter 19 says this, when Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples and asked them, did you receive the Holy Spirit when or since or after you believed? They answered, no, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit. So Paul asked them, then what baptism did you receive? John's baptism.

They replied, Paul said John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is in Jesus. On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. There were about 12 men in all.

David (07:43.26)
I hope that if you've been tracking with us since Acts chapter 1, my hope is that there's all sort of lights blinking up on your dashboard when you hear John read a passage like that because it should, I think Luke frames the passage, this is my sort of initial reaction, he frames the passage to, I think you're supposed to go, wait a minute, some of this language here is not accidental. The Holy Spirit came on the...

John (07:43.502)
There we go.

John (08:10.222)
Hmm.

David (08:12.22)
spoken tongues and prophesied, there were about twelve men. It was made about twelve men.

John (08:16.846)
Mmm.

Yeah. Yes, it's at so many levels. It draws your attention and you can clearly see now in the way that Dr. Luke writes that there are certain ways he's phrasing things, not that they are untrue, they're all true, but they're being phrased in such a way to draw our attention to certain ideas, certain repeat ideas, certain patterns, certain thought processes that

are now part and parcel of his narrative as he goes through. And this is an absolutely striking story. Lovely. I feel like it's a lovely change of gear because, you know, everything that's previously happened feels very, very big, very, very macro in some ways. And then this feels very intimate, very personal, very tender in some ways. And yet shows shows well.

David (09:13.372)
Mm.

John (09:17.038)
multiple things, the impact even that John's baptism has had, even to the extent now that we're still meeting people impacted by John's baptism. So a lot going on here in the context of this lovely story with these, well, about these 12 men, yeah, beautiful.

David (09:35.004)
And I mean, I'm struck, and I've got our last couple of conversations in mind when I'm struck by this. Number one, you see this repetition of an idea that Paul is not the center of the Christian universe, if I could say it like that. He is able to leave places. While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. I loved some of your reflections on...

John (09:50.638)
Yeah.

David (10:02.332)
the relational integrity that we see in the early Christian church. And I think we do this to act. We read acts and say it's basically the story of Paul. And I think if Paul was around today, we would turn him into our hero. It wouldn't be called, I mean, forgive me if this is too on the nose, but it wouldn't be called followers of the way it would be called the Apostle Paul Ministries.

I'm not sure how much I'm even joking when I say that. Like, I feel like we would have t -shirts and, you know, merchandise and conferences and all the other people would be serving Paul's ministry. And what you observed in the last couple of episodes, which I find was just stunning, was that that's not how it's working here. Paul's happy to say, you don't need me here. I'm not the center of this. Jesus is the center of this.

John (10:54.638)
Mm. Mm.

David (10:56.54)
bit of teaching here, bit of doctrinal correction there, you know, huge reliance on the Holy Spirit. This frees Paul to actually be the missionary that God wants him to be. And it's interesting, actually, and it's coming to me even as I say this, John, this is not, just even as I hear myself say that, it's fascinating that we, in the contemporary context, we can

John (11:08.206)
Hmm.

David (11:27.004)
we can promote a personality to become the central point of a ministry because of the technologies that we have. We can move that person around the world quickly, we can use digital technologies to project their work, we can replicate their work. That technology isn't available into the early church. So as a result, they rely on the Holy Spirit.

John (11:33.102)
for sure.

David (11:54.748)
And the Holy Spirit doesn't create a digital merchandising system. The Holy Spirit just empowers other people. And I'm not wanting to lean heavily on a critique of the modern when I say that, but I wonder if we should pay attention that the Holy Spirit doesn't need the technologies to grow Paul. What happens is the Holy Spirit just spreads into others.

John (12:22.158)
Absolutely.

David (12:23.036)
Which, I mean, and then I've got Ephesians 4 .11 in mind with that, where so often a text that we focus on what are these gifts, identities, but what Paul seems to want us to focus on is these gifts are given so that the whole church can grow. So, I mean, forgive me, I didn't plan to say that, but it just struck me as I was saying it. I mean, so I wanna offer you some reflection on that, but I'm not trying to be unkind, but you see what I'm wrestling with there.

John (12:37.646)
Indeed, indeed.

John (12:49.87)
no, I completely understand where you're going with that. I think I think one of the dangers in the Book of Acts is that because from from a certain point of the narrative, it does feel a bit Paul centric because Luke is following Paul's story and that tracks all the way to his imprisonment, house arrest and imprisonment in Rome at the end of the story. So there's a natural sense in which

This feels not only like the story of the church, but the story of Paul. But of course, Luke is not, well, I don't believe that Luke is focusing on Paul because he's trying to sort of put Paul under some sort of platform to be lifted up above others, but simply as a vehicle to tell the story of the church. So had Luke followed Barnabas, then it would be Barnabas here at the center of the story. It's the fact that while

David (13:45.052)
Yes.

John (13:48.366)
Paul is in Ephesus, Apollo, Apollos is in Corinth, Barnabas and John Mark are somewhere, we don't know where at this stage, they're somewhere. You've got, Paul has sent people off to Macedonia, you've got Timothy in play, you've got Titus in play, Silas in play, you've got a whole bunch of men and women in play, and we've reflected on that. So, and I do love this sense that though,

David (13:56.188)
Yeah, yeah.

John (14:16.142)
we are focusing through the lens of one team led by this particular man called Paul. We're supposed to understand that this sort of conversation is happening in multiple settings at the same time. And in fact, when we step back from Paul, we realize absolutely how the church is spreading across the Roman world because people like Paul,

David (14:31.996)
Yeah. Yes.

John (14:43.726)
maybe not the same as Paul, are doing the sort of kingdom stuff and taking that to the to the places of the world. And and and I think that's a way to read it. If if we read it through a 21st century lens, which tends to fixate on personalities, tends to idolize if we're not careful personalities and tends to promote personality more than it was funny. I was watching something develop on social media and it was a particular

David (14:49.5)
Yes.

John (15:13.198)
conference where there was a particular worship leader and I was following a little bit within just the threads of the role. And what was fascinating, and I know nobody meant this, so please nobody hear this as an act of judgment. It really isn't. But what was fascinating was we were talking more about the person leading the worship than we were about the fact, you know, isn't it great to worship Jesus? So.

David (15:34.524)
Hmm. Yeah.

David (15:40.22)
Yes.

John (15:40.814)
Now, I don't, I know that can sound awfully facetious and up myself and it's not meant to be. It's genuinely meant to be a little reminder. Actually, if some kid, 15 year old with a guitar stood up the front and we all had a heart for Jesus, we could worship Jesus. We don't actually need the band and we don't actually need this, you know, light centric big thing. Now, if we have it, let's have it, let's have it, let's celebrate it and let's use it. But again,

21st century world, we do not need any encouragement to become a personality orientated focus when actually the point of the personality is to ultimately focus us towards the glory of Jesus. And I think that's how we need to read the Book of Acts constantly.

David (16:16.7)
Yeah, yeah.

David (16:26.812)
Mm. And I think that...

we see this in Acts with this opening question, right? Do, you know, it stuns me. Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed? Like, here's the centrality of the Holy Spirit in the story, isn't it? Let's ask the real questions and the important questions. And I feel like that would be a sub -narrative throughout Acts. You could...

John (16:48.43)
Yeah.

David (17:00.252)
I've wondered this a lot as we've gone through this series, what could you subtitle acts? And there's so many. But to your point, one of them could be a journey in asking the right questions. And I think one of the critiques that Luke could often give us is I think we ask the wrong questions. I think about that in worship all the time. That was a great worship session, somebody will say.

John (17:11.566)
Yeah.

David (17:27.484)
And I often find myself, I don't do this, I'm slightly better a pastor, I think, than this, but I don't often immediately pounce on a person and ask them this question. But I always want to know what does that was a great worship session mean? Because my experience suggests that often it means I felt really good about it. But I feel like if you read the Psalms, good worship is we proclaimed Christ as King, God as King.

John (17:43.086)
Mean.

David (17:57.436)
you know, Yahweh is Lord over all the earth, sort of thing. And I think when we ask the wrong questions, I mean, you know, as teachers, you and I both have spent time in classrooms where we say to students, like, there's no silly questions, right? Because you want to encourage students to ask. But I also think there's a statement that needs to be sometimes said, is that you can't get a good answer from a bad question, right?

John (18:12.014)
Mm.

John (18:22.862)
Yeah, yeah.

David (18:23.484)
Like your question will cause you, if you insist that's the question that needs to be asked, you'll cause me problems. And I think this about Paul here. He finds some disciples and the first question is, did you receive the Holy Spirit? Because it seems to me that Paul's question is, if that's not the first question, then we're going to end up not answering the right things and we're going to get caught in the wrong debates and we're going to get led down the wrong path.

And I feel like one of the things we learn throughout Acts is ask good questions. And I don't mean this is not a leadership question even. I think this is for us as congregation. You know, like I, you know, somebody might say I didn't really like that church service this morning. Okay, what did you not like about it? Was the gospel proclaimed? Was Jesus worshiped? Were the congregation gathered together? You know, these are the questions. And it's amazing how often I've been to services where I'm like, meh.

John (19:14.578)
Yeah.

David (19:22.94)
I didn't really feel that one. But when I actually ask the important questions, I go, actually, there was nothing wrong with that service whatsoever. And I think this is some of the beauty of the discipleship of Acts. Did you receive the Holy Spirit? Let's get to that first, guys. Because somehow we've got these disciples out there that are disciples. So they've heard about Jesus, but somehow...

John (19:31.47)
Yeah, absolutely.

John (19:41.646)
Mm. Yeah.

John (19:48.206)
Yeah. Yep.

David (19:51.932)
I mean, my goodness, scholars are deeply frustrated about this verse, aren't they? Because, like, what has happened here and how has it happened?

John (19:57.742)
Yeah, but of course we, I mean, in terms of John being, you know, these are clearly people who've been influenced by John. We've already had that with Apollos, you know, Apollos we've met earlier on and Apollos was clearly influenced by John's baptism and then discipled and helped into a greater understanding of Jesus by Priscilla and Aquila. I mean, we, you know, we've already covered that and you've got this same idea again of these

David (20:06.812)
Mm -hmm. Mm.

John (20:27.054)
followers who clearly do present themselves as disciples to such an extent that Paul doesn't ask the question that, you know, have you met Jesus? Have you believed in Jesus? But he jumps to the have you received the Holy Spirit conversation? And I know it's interesting how that can be translated. Have you? Did you receive the Holy Spirit? When is one possible translation or since or having believed?

David (20:55.388)
Yes.

John (20:55.534)
So this is a bit controversial, but in the context of the Book of Acts, Paul's question seems to repeat two pattern thinking ideas. Number one, that if you're following Jesus, you need the Holy Spirit. That seems to be a big, relentless narrative in the context of the Book of Acts. And we've done a lot of work on that and chopped chatting about that. And secondly, again, Paul's question seems to suggest

David (21:07.612)
Mm.

David (21:12.604)
Yeah. Yes.

John (21:25.326)
that this, whatever this experience with the Holy Spirit is, it can be separate from a moment of faith in Jesus. And again, I know that's controversial. There will be some of our listeners who will come from traditions that believe that at conversion you receive the Holy Spirit and it's all one big package, et cetera. And there may be other people listening to this that would want to reject the work of the Spirit as seen in the Book of Acts in the 21st century.

David (21:34.012)
Hmm. Hmm.

David (21:52.412)
Hmm.

John (21:55.15)
We're we're just reading the text as it stands and then you can have those arguments afterwards. But Paul seems to suggest to this group of disciples, you should have received the Holy Spirit. Have you received the Holy Spirit suggesting that number one, of course, they should receive the Spirit, but also suggesting it's possible to not receive the Spirit in the way he is described in Luke's narrative in the Book of Acts. So I think again,

David (21:58.268)
Mm.

David (22:09.308)
Hmm. Yeah.

David (22:21.212)
Mm.

John (22:24.526)
We're having this idea is popping up. We've seen it in Acts chapter two. We've seen it now in the Sumerians. We've seen it in Cornelius household. Now we're seeing it here with the group of 12 disciples. You're getting this emphasis on we need the Holy Spirit. We need the Holy Spirit. And we know that even in Paul's conversion, though we've given no details at all about the event that Ananias dead hands on him and he received the Spirit. So this is a pattern now, I think.

David (22:30.108)
Hmm.

David (22:36.284)
Mm.

David (22:40.156)
Yeah.

John (22:54.03)
However you choose to read the Book of Acts, we cannot deny a pattern is developing and this is another reminder of that pattern of the work of the Spirit and the fact that that work should be evident in the life of a follower of Jesus.

David (23:13.34)
Yes, yeah. And I think, I mean, my goodness, it's a fascinating, it's a fascinating text for so many reasons on that, but that's the thing that I think Luke wants us to hear. And that's what I mean even when I talk about this being the key question, because that question then clearly starts to unlock other questions. And this is, it's almost like this passage is a great example of.

the difference between a bad question and a good question. Like, have you received the Holy Spirit? Well, we've not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit. Well, what baptism then did you receive? And this is where we see, because we know that baptism at this point, where you were baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, right? You're baptized into the name of Jesus. So the moment you've not heard of the Holy Spirit, we can... What am I trying to... How am I trying to say this better? You actually start to see something that we saw in the last chapter.

The early church had a robust theological background, right? Because, you know, Apollos is teaching, but they pull him aside and go, hey, let's correct you on a couple of things here, Apollos. Now we know that they have a formula for how people are being baptized, and they're teaching people in how to be baptized. And these disciples have answered a question which immediately alerts Paul to the fact, you've not.

being taught properly, because you should know this, if you were baptized by us, not by us as in Paul's group, but by the early post Jesus church, you would definitely have heard of the Holy Spirit. So the moment I've heard you say this, I now know other things that you probably haven't done either. And I think that's the sort of...

John (24:42.574)
Yeah. Yeah.

John (24:56.59)
Mm -hmm.

David (25:02.3)
thing that I love about the early church that were so quick to ignore that they were doing good organized work in the name of Jesus.

John (25:11.598)
Yeah. And again, what's lovely is that then the sort of progressional feel of the conversation. Then what baptism did you receive? John's. Paul then Paul then brilliantly leans into John's baptism and explains it and sort of said, well, yeah, John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. But of course, John's baptism was ultimately preparing people for Jesus.

David (25:30.684)
Yes. Yes.

David (25:38.748)
Yes.

John (25:39.118)
And we're right there. And of course, we're then, so it says then, on hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. So between this sort of conclusion that John's baptism was pointing people to Jesus ultimately, and then on hearing this, they were baptized in the name of Jesus. You get this feeling that in between those lines, Paul has then unpacked Jesus to them and made sure they understand

that what John started Jesus actually has brought to conclusion and the Holy Spirit is here to help us carry that message on. So it's a brilliant, because he's asked the right questions and of course what's helpful, they've given honest answers. They could have fudged the answers and waffled, but the fact they go, no, no, we haven't even heard of the Holy Spirit. Okay, what baptism, well, John's, okay, right. And because then,

of these beautiful responses to these questions, we're now at a place where they are open to receiving the baptism of Jesus and by implication they have received Jesus or they have publicly acknowledged Jesus in a way that maybe they hadn't done before. So you end up with something very, very powerful as an outcome because of the right question, which leads then to a clearly a declaration of faith.

David (27:00.732)
Yes, yes.

John (27:05.326)
followed by a baptism in water, which of course then, knowing Paul leads to the next moment, you know, in hearing this, they were baptized in the name of Lord Jesus. Then Paul placed his hands on them and the Holy Spirit came on them. So again, this expectation in the early church that if you are baptized into Jesus, then we want you to be baptized, filled, empowered, clothed with the Holy Spirit. It's the natural, progressional point.

So you've actually got a mini discipleship conversation here. You've got a mini, like a little theological segment. We've cut into the theology cake and you've got a beautiful layer by layer understanding of how the early church were thinking in getting people to Jesus and in getting into the water and in getting to fill with Holy Spirit. It's quite powerful.

David (27:35.708)
Hmm.

David (27:57.788)
And all of these things happening at the same time are important to us as well. So, on one hand, there's clearly formation going on and education going on here. But on the other hand, they're not saying, okay, you've believed now in Jesus, come back in a year's time and we'll baptize you in water, and then come back in another year's time and we'll lay hands on you to receive the Holy Spirit. This is all happening at the same time.

John (28:19.214)
Indeed. Yeah.

David (28:27.708)
And I think that again repeats, clearly your thoughts on this have impacted me, because I keep referring back to them. Again, it repeats back to what we were saying about leadership the last couple of episodes, the trust that the Holy Spirit is the thing you need. So let's get people into the space of the Holy Spirit as quickly as we possibly can.

I don't have the space for a joke, John, but I had this moment where I resonated. You and me have both spent time in classrooms, and I hope everybody sees the funny side of what I'm saying here. He finds disciples and asks them, did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed? And they answered, no, we've not even heard there is a Holy Spirit. So what baptism should we do? we receive John's baptism, right?

So then you go back into the New Testament and find, let's find any sermon we can find from John. And here's the only sermon we've got. I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit. I felt that deeply in my soul as a teacher where you're like, I feel like I taught on this a lot. And everybody's like, I don't remember learning that.

John (29:36.718)
You

So good. That is so good. Come on. Come on. Yeah. I'm sure John said a few things about the Holy Spirit, but we missed that class. Yeah. Or we were on Instagram when John was talking about the Holy Spirit. Yeah, absolutely. So it is. It's a little sobering moment, isn't it? Here's this amazing harbinger, preparer of the way, amazing preacher, thundering in the wilderness, talking about the becoming Messiah and the power of the Holy Spirit.

And these boys just completely missed it all. Just like, yeah, yeah, we got baptized, but Holy Spirit, no idea. You got it. You got to love that, right? It's just I think there's a lovely humor in there, which it definitely is worth alluding to 100 percent. I love that. And I love I love the fact Paul doesn't mess around here. You know, he he's clearly.

He's clearly dealing with the group of men that have got a few gaps in their education. So he just goes straight to it. And then when he gets them baptized in water, it's not even like he asked them, by the way, do you want to receive the Holy Spirit? He just goes, when Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them. Now, you know, if it's modern church, certainly a Pentecostal church, we've got like three months teaching before we even go anywhere near this. And here's Paul just going, right, these boys have clearly got some gaps.

Let's just get them filled with the Holy Spirit before they sort of clear off. And I do love the, on a serious note, I do love the urgency of that Paul, when Paul placed his hands on them. And again, David, without us straining this, this is again a sense of pattern that has appeared. And just to remind our listeners, X2, it's a group of people, a group of Jewish people gathered together.

John (31:31.694)
And the Holy Spirit comes on them spontaneously as they're praying. So it's a group and the Holy Spirit comes on them spontaneously. And it's a Jewish group in Acts chapter two, Acts chapter eight, the Samaritans. It's a group of people receiving the Holy Spirit and they receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands. Peter and John, they their hands on them. Acts chapter 10. It's a group of Gentiles, again, a group. And the Holy Spirit comes on them spontaneously as Peter is speaking.

Then in Acts 19, we're assuming a Jewish group having been influenced by John, but you can't be absolutely sure they're getting a group of people. How do they receive the Holy Spirit? Paul puts his hands on them. In the book of Acts, you've got four groups of people receiving the Holy Spirit, Jewish groups, Samaritan groups, Gentile groups, this last little group. So it's an all -inclusive ethnicity being represented by the work of the Spirit. Then you've got two events where

It's spontaneous and two events where hands are laid on. I know we've referred to that before, but it's worth remembering that that X 19 is part four of a significant group pattern of receiving the Holy Spirit. And we, however you read the Book of Acts and certain people listening to us will have been taught to read the Book of Acts, a story and others will read it leaning hard into what we perceive as Luke's theology. However you read it, you can't ignore that pattern. You've got to at least give that pattern.

David (32:41.948)
Yes. Yes.

John (33:01.006)
some credence in terms of those experiences. Is that fair as an observation, do you think?

David (33:07.228)
Well, I mean, we've been arguing from the whole of the Book of Acts that it's formation, that this shouldn't be read differently from the Gospels or Paul's letters. I mean, it's stylistically different. But Luke is not writing these things because he had nothing better to do. And I mean, in one sense, it's fascinating.

John (33:22.062)
Yeah.

David (33:35.676)
actually let me show you this just for a second so if you jump back to the beginning of the Lucan pattern many have undertaken to drop in account of the things that have been fulfilled amongst us just as they were handed down to us from those who were first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word I mean it's fascinating with this in mind since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning I too decided

to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know the certainty of the things which you have been taught." Right? Now, what's fascinating about this is, us as often as kind of modern Protestant readers, we read this as an emphasis on scripture, right?

John (34:13.646)
Indeed, beautiful.

David (34:31.58)
And now please don't hear what I'm not saying listeners for us to say this but The Greek word here, but what you've been taught is catechesis, right? This is where the long traditions of the church get this notion of learning from like this was the training that was done Luke writes His book to support the teaching that you have been done, right? Whereas what we've done is actually we've made our teaching be about the

John (34:52.622)
Yes. Yes.

David (35:00.444)
books, right? So we say, what teaching is to help you understand the Bible? What Luke is doing here is saying, no, no, no, I am bringing you books to understand the teaching about Jesus that you have been done. So here we see, and this is where we get ourselves in a whole world of trouble if we're not careful. Here we see the beauty of the Bible confessing of itself, right? This is to support teaching about Jesus. If we make

John (35:01.23)
Indeed.

John (35:24.174)
Yes.

David (35:29.18)
this the main story, we'll get ourselves all muddled up. So in terms of our conversation here, Luke, and then he repeats this at the start of Acts, okay, this is part two, here we're coming in, but same agenda, same agenda as we're trying to point you to Jesus here. So what I think's important is that Luke sees his work as a support of the teaching of the church. It's not simply,

John (35:39.758)
Yep, yep, yep.

David (35:56.124)
This is just some nice stories that I felt were worth recording for posterity's sake. So when we start to see patterns, it's worth us often thinking, even going back to our conversation about good questions, what are the questions that Luke is trying to support here? And one of the things we can very evidently see from Act is he wants you to hear the radicality of, if that's the word, of Paul's conversion story, because multiple times he keeps bringing back to

John (35:59.214)
Yeah. Yeah.

David (36:25.82)
Look what God can do in a person's life. Multiple times he brings us back to patterns of the Holy Spirit. I don't think this is accidental from Luke. I don't think it's like, yeah, and the Holy Spirit came again. He's wanting to point you towards, learn from this. Remember what you've been taught about this and how is this drawing you to Jesus. So I mean, that would be my response, John. I don't know if that's helpful or not.

John (36:32.174)
Yes.

John (36:47.566)
Beautiful. I think it's a great reflection because I think that reflection helps cut through imposed ideas on Luke's narrative that have been imposed externally. They've been imposed by, in some cases, church traditions. They've been imposed by theological agendas. And actually, when we actually think about why Luke tells us he wrote in the first place,

That sort of helps us out really. And it's remembering that he's not writing to support one particular tradition or he's not writing to support a denominational identity. He's simply trying to get the big ideas of Jesus and the big ideas of the Holy Spirit and the big ideas of this dynamic called a community with Jesus at the center of it and the Holy Spirit empowering it.

David (37:28.54)
Yes. Yes.

John (37:45.55)
to continue to do that work. And again, you quoted the beautiful, the beautiful Luke and introduction to Luke's gospel. In the book of Acts, of course, he adds, you know, that this work that Jesus began to do and teach. And the implication is that what you're about to see in the book of Acts is the continuation of that story, but the continuation of how we understand the importance of these ideas to that story.

David (38:02.076)
Yes.

John (38:15.566)
He's not simply telling the story, but he's unpacking the things Jesus began to do and teach. And therefore, affirming those things in our experience. And I would argue, affirming those things even to a 21st century audience.

David (38:33.82)
I wonder if we leave that one, John, right there. Does that work for you?

John (38:35.47)
Yeah, sure. Yeah, it works for me.