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In which John and David talk about a miracle with more to it than meets the eye. Jesus encounters a man who is blind in Mark chapter 8, but the miracle seems to have a deeper meaning . A meaning that is important for anyone who might follow Jesus.
Episode Outline
The next episode of Two Texts will be in two weeks time.
Episode 19 of the Two Texts Podcast | Meaning of Miracles Series 2
If you want to get in touch about something in the podcast you can reach out on podcast@twotexts.com or by liking and following the Two Texts podcast on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter. We're also on YouTube. If you enjoy the podcast, we’d love it if you left a review or comment where you’re listening from – and if you really enjoyed it, why not share it with a friend?
Music by Woodford Music (c) 2021
Drop us a text message to say hi and let us know what you think of the show.
In which John and David talk about a miracle with more to it than meets the eye. Jesus encounters a man who is blind in Mark chapter 8, but the miracle seems to have a deeper meaning . A meaning that is important for anyone who might follow Jesus.
Episode Outline
The next episode of Two Texts will be in two weeks time.
Episode 19 of the Two Texts Podcast | Meaning of Miracles Series 2
If you want to get in touch about something in the podcast you can reach out on podcast@twotexts.com or by liking and following the Two Texts podcast on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter. We're also on YouTube. If you enjoy the podcast, we’d love it if you left a review or comment where you’re listening from – and if you really enjoyed it, why not share it with a friend?
Music by Woodford Music (c) 2021
David Harvey: [00:00:00] Hi there. I'm David Harvey and I'm here with John Andrews. And this is the two texts podcast. In this podcast, we're two friends in two different countries. I hear every two weeks talking about two different texts from the Bible. This is our second season. It's about the miracles of Jesus. This is episode two and it's called "Did he just spit?"
John: [00:00:38] So David, we opened up our miracles series. Really landed on, Luke 4 and how that really set the freedom for high Jesus was going to engage with his world and some of the things he was going to try and achieve there found that so helpful. We're, we're not going to start jumping into some of the actual miracles and we're starting with this beautiful story of the, the man who is blamed healed at a place called Bethsaida it's in mark chapter eight.
So do you want to read that for us? And then we'll get, we'll get stuck into that.
David: [00:01:12] let's do it. John so at verse 22 of mark chapter eight, it says they came to Bethsaida and some people brought a man who's blind and beg Jesus to touch. It took the man who was blind by the hand and led him outside the village. When he had spit on the man's eyes, he had put his hands on him.
Jesus asked, do you see anything? He looked up and said, I see people. They look like trees walking around. So once more, Jesus put his hands on the man's eyes, then his eyes were opened. His sight was restored and he saw everything. Clearly Jesus sent him home saying, don't even go into the village
John: [00:02:01] wow.
Okay.
David: [00:02:05] story. I, I, again, it's one of these stories, John. I, I try and locate myself. Into the story, the opening, this, that line, when he spit on the man's eyes, I always put myself in the context of, is there something missing from the story here? It was Jesus. Like, hold on. This is going to be a bit weird.
John: [00:02:25] Yeah. Yeah. Our listeners should know that that is a, that is a pretty literal translation there. He, he spit on his, it's not like he spit on his hands and robbed them in his eyes. It's like, he's like on his eyes and maybe that's why Jesus took her motivator. That leads you to do that.
You're, you're sort of thinking, was there a better strategic sense there, right? I'm about to do something Luke's quite gross. So I'll take a note side. So nobody puts this on social media or tech talk or something. And so there is the, the race, cause I've, I've often marveled. we've leaned into that conversation halfway that Jesus haven't, we, that Jesus isn't just healing people, but there is a sensitivity to the, to the situation they're in.
There's often a sense that, and here is here's one of those moments that seems to reflect a sensitivity to the extremity of this particular context, because I think there's some beautiful. Ideas tucked away in the text here that aren't immediately obvious, but really once we see them, they stand out as quite dynamic.
David: [00:03:33] Just picking up on what you were saying is there. So in Luke chapter four, where we began this season, you've got, the people who are blind are going to receive their sight. And this is going to be a, this is a, the kingdom is coming. This is deliverance has come God's Messiah is amongst us.
And then now our first kind of miracle story that we jump into it's Jesus. Healing a man who is blind, but doing it privately and not performing a big short it's a little bit of us going, wait a minute. Jesus. I thought that these, I thought that these miracles were supposed to show that you are the Messiah and now we've got Jesus kind of doing it privately just with his disciples, keeping away from the shore and away from the, the, the aggrandizement of this, which I think goes back to the second aspect that we enjoyed with this season, that Jesus humanizing.
Everybody he encounters, even if society stigmatizes and separates. Jesus seems to be concerned about the man, which is beautiful.
John: [00:04:27] it is. And, and, and another little, maybe, maybe this is maybe this is me reading something into it potentially, but I love the fact that Jesus says at the end there, don't even go into the village it's so Jesus, isn't even wanting to sensationalize. The man. All right. He's not right. Okay. Now that you're not at you, you can see like you're a walking advert for me.
Just go and blast this everywhere. It's like, Jesus is, don't playing this. And, and of course there's lots of theories why he does that. Lots of conversation around that. But one of the little ideas I love that that may or may not be substantiated, but I'll throw it out. There is that Jesus don't plays this in terms of public.
Announcement, because he is concerned about the man. This is about he's this man's now got to start putting his life together. He's got to find a job, NY he's, he's got to get back into his world and he doesn't simply want this man to be a, a poster boy for this event. man to get his life back and actually enjoy the fullness of the kingdom of God.
There's a sensitivity to that moment as well. Whereas we would be pro maybe in the 21st century to make it a bit of a, a wow event and, and maybe write on the back of it for awhile. I hope I'm not being too cynical though, but I've seen it done. I've seen it though.
David: [00:05:49] One of my favorite interpreters of mark chapter eight is Richard Hays. And he has just this lane where he says that that mark. he's telling you this story, mark is also, he says, mark crafted the story to ensure that you understand how Jesus is a miracle worker. So if you just hear the stories of Jesus as a miracle worker, you might jump things.
And so then he says this, those who perceive Jesus as a purveyor of power, whether they're supernatural or political have failed to understand. But so, so Jesus has an opportunity here to do into the middle of the village and go look, the Messiah has come and I'm going to prove it to you right now by healing a blind person.
You have never seen this happen before.
you remember Isaiah. This means that the Messiah is here, but instead you get the exact opposite from Jesus. We're going to head off into a little quiet spot. I would say the village, there will be no scene. There'll be no fanfare. And actually just go home quietly after this and just get on with your life and, and, and see what happens.
So there's this real symptom of Jesus. Again, upsetting the apple car kind of disrupting our views of what the Messiah is going to look like. The minute in the back of my head, I have another miracle in mind in John chapter six, when Jesus feeds the 5,000, we'll jump into that miracle in this season as well.
But just as a little spoiler of it, when he does that, what do the people try and do? It says they try and make him king by force. So Jesus, Jesus gets out of there, walks across the watcher to get away from it all. So there's this, there's this constant theme that Jesus isn't looking. To leverage this miraculous ministry for power in the way that we would certainly understand that.
Which I think is powerful,
John: [00:07:35] or I think it's absolutely profound and I think it's a challenge and I think it's something that we should take note off and just be sensitive to, there are obviously moments where Jesus does things in a very public context. So. We're not saying this is the only way he does it, but the fact that Jesus does something like this in what seems to be a more private context is a, is a, an insight that we should not ignore.
And we should be open to the sensitivity of that dynamic and, and what perhaps Jesus is saying and doing through it.
David: [00:08:08] I would want to just spread the net, even a little wider, John, and, and, like Hayes little comment in the quote that I read there, whether supernatural or political, like, there are many ways that Christians can leverage power and there are many ways that we can try and establish ourselves.
Well, look at, look at us and there's something in this story. And many of Jesus's stories that will just tell us that that's not quite how Jesus wants to go about doing things.
John: [00:08:34] So good.
David: [00:08:35] There's also a little clue that, that I just want to mention now and we'll come back to it, but there's a little clue, just a few verses before this mark chapter eight, almost needs to be read in totality, but I think that would make us need to change the name to like 14 texts or something like that.
Cause there's a lot of stories, but you have this miracle of the feeding of the 4,000, . And then there's this beauty beautiful irony that, so Jesus, Jesus has fed 4,000 people and they get in a boat and they're, they're heading across some, somewhere else. I didn't mark just says to us, the disciples had forgotten.
to bring any bread, which I think is hilarious.
Jesus has just as just fed all of these people and somehow they've got no Fred, but then Jesus says to them, Hey, watch out for the yeast of the Pharisees and that of Herod, which again seems to be a little watch out for them. Power watch out for the pursuit of, of, of these things. The disciples missed the point of Jesus.
He's a little less than just say, oh, you only said this because we've not got any bread. And Jesus says to them, why are you talking about bread? I've tried to teach you something here. And then he says, do you have eyes, but fail to see? Right.
And, and just know that Martin. Doing something here, right? W th that, that he's do you have eyes, but don't see.
And then Jesus unpacks a little of explanation to the disciples, and then they turn up in Bethsaida and look who they encounter straight away, a person who can't see. Right. But perhaps, perhaps you Want to jump in a little deeper into them, is this story, but just be. aware of the storytelling of the gospel.
Right? You're hear that. He's, he's giving you a little hint that there's something coming up And you're going to want to pay attention to it
John: [00:10:11] and date and date. And I think for anyone who listened to the previous episode on Luke four, we, we did hint strongly at that, that the gospel writers seem to really get Jesus. They understand who he is, of course, on what he's about, what he's trying to achieve. And therefore there are moments.
Each gospel writer will connect some ideas together. Sometimes they are chronological and they fit chronologically, but sometimes they're, they're programmatic. They, there events that happen on the gospel writer themselves are putting them together. This is one of those beautiful moments that of course is we're going to see, not just before, but after there's a gorgeous after as well.
Isn't there on this, which I can't wait to get to David. I am. All right. I'm almost falling over with excitement because I cut with the good, but David, let me just ask you a question. As I was stumbling through this story in may, in my own sort of Greek reading to trying to see if there's anything onto the surface, I, I saw something and, and I know you've got some wonderful thoughts around this, but first 23, it says, Jesus spit on his eyes.
On the word for eyes, there is Ooma on jet in verse 25, it says, so you have this awkward in-between moment where Jesus spits on his eyes puts his hands on them and then says, do you see anything on the month? Is I see people, they look like trees walking around, which I love this because you're, you're going, hold on.
Is Jesus not done this rate? Or what's going on here? And then
verse
David: [00:11:48] only miracle of Jesus that he seems to have to take two goes at.
John: [00:11:52] I have two, two shots at this, which is a bit of an encouragement to us all over, but then first 25 maybe leans into something else because it says once more, Jesus put his hands on the man's eyes, a follow most different word. Now are we potentially reading too much into that, but the fact that we've got.
One word in verse 23 and another word in verse 25. Is there something more going on here potentially? The meats forgive the pun than meets the eye and the surface of the text.
David: [00:12:25] this is, this is where I, I think this passage gets quite exciting and a lot of translations. And now let me be fair to the translations because a lot of lexicons do the same. So the dictionaries that the translators are using do the same. This word Alma is not, is not the , regular, ordinary word that we would use for ice in, in the Bible. It, it seems to, from my research, it seems to more relate to the notion of eye socket. So it's a little interesting to do with just not very common word, and that's not surprising you and me. Don't talk about eye sockets very often, but the word eye is in kind of common parlance, but ordinarily, if you were reading this, you would assume, the basic idea is.
His eyes would be ophtalmitis exactly. As you see, that's the second word now, why? I think that's interesting is that mark chooses an awkward word that that seems to in Other,
places in the Greek literatures it doesn't, it doesn't really appear much in, in, in the biblical literature, but. In the other Greek literatures, it appears to mean eye sockets right now. I think that's quite fascinating now. Cause there's a couple of things going on here. Jesus has just asked the disciples. Do you have eyes, but don't.
John: [00:13:40] and
David: [00:13:40] Is it possible that we've actually encountering a man here who physically doesn't have eyes right now? The text doesn't give us much to go on why that
would be Kate, the case, except that what seems to be happening is that Jesus is spitting into the man's eye sockets.
So there's almost a sense of a kind of creation miracle happening here that Jesus is forming and making something. And, and so then, and it feels like that what happens is this sort of first kind of creation is to create eyes for the men. And then the second time, Jesus now puts his hand on the man's eyes where they come from.
Right. Now, does that make sense now? There's another way of reading it, which says that maybe. The man did have eyes, but his, his whole face was damaged somehow as a result of something like that. You're generally having to work with big gaps in the text, but it seems that the most accurate way to read the Greek is that you've got ice sockets and then eyes the second time.
So it's not so much that Jesus takes a goal of trying to heal the man. Doesn't do a great job to try as again, it seems as actually a two-stage healing, there's a healing of whatever happened. Of whatever is going on with the man's eye sockets. I know there's a healing of the man's eyes themselves. I'm personally kind of tending towards thinking that Jesus creates eyes in this.
That's what you're supposed to read into this, but you know, you don't need to, you don't need to go to your death on that interpretation, but there's definitely a progress of there's a one-stage problem. And now there's a second stage problem. And the fascinating thing is that that sets the man up, that he's kind of.
Okay. You've kind of fixed the problem a little bit here, Jesus, the first time. But, but, but we're not quite there yet. I don't. And the second time he sees everything and there's a really key little word that's going to be important to us clearly. Right. He sees things properly. So I, I don't know if that, does that help the reader?
Do you think John?
John: [00:15:38] will. I mean, th th there's a sense that we've talked about before you can read the Bible on the surface and there's gold on the surface, and then you drill under the surface and you find a couple of bits of gold. W the last thing we want to do is become guilty of ACG service of reading stuff in there.
But I think with what goes before. Do you have eyes to see, I mean, it's, it's just, and then the first person Jesus encounters, when they sort of, arrive in Bethsaida is a guy potentially, literally with noise. The other thing that really helps me is that it would explain, well, okay, I know this is quite cultural or maybe, maybe not, but it, it, it, it makes it feel slightly easier to Jesus.
Into or on the eye, if there's nothing actually there, you're sort of spitting into a, into a socket. I know that made sound a bit distress into our, some of our listeners, but, but somehow that sort of makes sense too. Like spitting into an actual eye rather than, rather than, spitting into the socket sort of makes sense.
And, and the other little thing I think it connects to is verse 25, David, it says, and he was restored. So this idea of back to original constitution, back to what it should have been. I think it is it's, it's this beautiful idea of the restoration of something that was previously constituted, a love, that sort of thought.
So it seems to lean in to potentially this dynamic creative mirror. Which then explains the two stages, which for those lovely followers of Jesus over thinking, oh my goodness, Jesus like botched it up first time round. Well we'll maybe, or maybe not. Maybe the first thing Jesus is doing is creating the actual eye.
David: [00:17:40] Hm.
John: [00:17:41] And then the second thing is, is giving that new eye or new eyes. A clear focus. He saw clearly, I suppose, the scene in a fog. I love that. I think it, I think to me it doesn't fundamentally change the story, but it potentially add something really amazing. And of course, if we're to also leaning into these wonderful miracles, also having a message to them, then, then could it be.
There will be site created in those this moment cannot see. I do not expect it to see the Messiah, but they're going to see the Messiah because Jesus, through his life and ministry will, as it were, create the facility for them, those who couldn't see for no, to be able to see and, and a doodle, like the sort of layers on that.
David. I do. I do. I think that Lindsay, yeah. The wider interpretation of the miracles.
David: [00:18:45] And again, the idea of restoration his sight was restored. Not an interpretation that you're going to go to your grave over. This man isn't like in other situations in the new Testament counter a person who is blind and they were born that way. So again, this is what makes me wonder whether you've got some sort of accident has happened to this man , because there is a site restoration he has had sight and now it's been put back together again for him.
And so, like you say, it's not something that makes you. Changes what you understand in the story, but there is a sense where. See some extra nuance and depth that's going on there. And it's interesting. I've never this is not a subject area that I've researched a kind of academic level job, but it does strike me as interesting that it is when it comes to the healing of people with sight difficulties that you get this involvement of here.
Jesus spits. There's another situation where he makes a sort of, Yeah.
Paste puts it. So I I'd love to one of these days amongst a long list of things I'd love to get into at a very academic level would be to actually, I wonder what's going on there as to why it's in the site, miracles that. you get an involvement of, of.
Spitting forming, creating there's something, there's something, what you're you talk about the goal you're scratching and you think there's, there's something more here I need to keep looking. So that's not very helpful. I realized to our listeners to know that I'm not quite sure where we go with that, but it feels to me like there's, there's just, there's resonancies happening for Jesus.
John: [00:20:18] Love that. I think to me, David, it seems so if we're, if we're going to sort of celebrate this amazing miracle. Remembering some of the things we said in our previous episode messianic sayings, which this one would be one of those ones that leans into that idea. The fact that you've got people on the margins.
Now here's a man who would have maybe had the bag for a loving.
David: [00:20:43] Yes.
John: [00:20:43] No being empowered, but also this sort of beautiful nuance of empathy takes him outside the village. And it's not a sensationalist. Everyone look at this guy while I do this. It's it's quite private moment. There's a whole bunch of beautiful stuff going on, but it seems to me again, one of the things we did in the parables together, David was we try to seed statements of Jesus in a wider flow and content.
Now, we've already alluded to the bit before, but if we look at market and a slightly wider context, this miracle forgive my language Ms. Merico sort of becomes meat and a beautiful sandwich, almost. There's a, it's like, so we've had, so, I know that a bit of a ponder on bread before starting it, but that this is all getting very cringy.
so you, you've
David: [00:21:35] I hadn't even noticed that for that. He's quite brilliant.
John: [00:21:38] Thank you. So you've got, you've got Jesus, feeding the four-thousand seven basketballs, leftover the disciples, getting completely the wrong end of the conversation concluding in this. Have you got a to see sort of conversation, then we have this museum miracle and then we're back to the disciples.
David: [00:21:56] yes.
John: [00:21:58] And it's like, you've got disciples before miracle and the middle, and then another disciples story. And these three feel profoundly connected to me.
David: [00:22:09] Well, if you've tracked what we were saying about Luke and Isaiah 35, and that the Messiah will bring certain signs with him that help you knew he's the Messiah. This is almost kind of quiz question, John isn't there. Do you have eyes to see? Well, here's a man who may not have had eyes and Jesus has just healed and know the man can see clearly. So
if you were the teacher, if you're the rabbi, as Jesus is, and you've got your disciples as well as he has. As you walk away from that situation. Right? So, cause that's the next lane Jesus's disciples went onto the villages around Cesary Philippa. The question is, so what do you know ask, right? Cause, cause this is what rabbis do.
They do things. And then they say to the disciples, I said, what do you think about this? What is the question that you turn to your disciples and ask at this point
John: [00:23:05] Yeah,
David: [00:23:06] he's right there in the text, isn't
John: [00:23:07] It's right there in the text. Who do people say I am? Shall I, shall I read this
David: [00:23:13] Yeah, yeah. Go for it.
John: [00:23:14] I think it's so cool. Verse 28, they replied some, say John, the Baptist, other sailors. Still others, one of the prophets. But what about you? He asked, who do you say Peter answered you are the Messiah and then Jesus warned them not to tell anyone about him now, again, in my Bible, there's a pause there, but with your permission, I'm going to keep going for a
David: [00:23:38] Well, I was going to say, hold it for a second. Right? I don't know if that's me no rigid removing my permission, but I always, I think it's worth a pause at this point and ask this question is Peter right? Okay.
So is Peter Right,
now? We don't necessarily need to answer that question, but, but if you're listening to this, maybe you're out for your run right.
now, or you're driving your way to work.
So, so who do people say Hamline? Some people say that John, the Baptist, other Elijah is still one of the props. There's a lot of rumors, Jesus, about what people are saying about you. Okay. But you've been with me for a while now. You've just seen me heal this guy with new eyes. You remember Isaiah 35. Who do you say that?
Peter says you're the Messiah. And I think it's worth just holding that question for a second. It's gonna sound hugely controversial, if you're listening to it, but wait a minute. W what is David saying? But is Peter right? Okay. So hold that and then, yeah, jump back into the text now.
John: [00:24:30] Okay. So first 31 he then began to teach them that the son of man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed. And after three days rise again, he spoke planning. About this. And Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him.
But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter, get behind me sit. And
David: [00:24:55] Okay.
John: [00:24:56] he said, you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns. That's a bit of a twist. Right there, but have a turn in the story,
David: [00:25:07] Yeah.
John: [00:25:07] Within that. So, so again, th this, this trajectory, so that's remained ourselves or the trajectory they've been talking about bread Jesus, then warns them about the yeast of the Pharisees inherit.
They get the whole thing mixed up. He's saying, do you have eyes to see, we now have this miracle of a man potentially having new eyes created in his head. And then the very next conversation is who do people say I am? And this awkward moment with Peter, where it seems to turn in the wrong direction, as far as he's concerned.
David: [00:25:43] Like, thank, thank God for Peter. Right? So Peter, Peter is like, he's got to surely be the patron Saint of those with the foot in their mouth.
John: [00:25:53] Okay.
David: [00:25:54] And as somebody who. Regularly puts my foot in my mouth. And maybe, maybe that's a, that's that metaphor that we use in the UK. Isn't it about just when you say that thing that you probably shouldn't have said.
Jesus spoke plainly to. About what it meant for him to be the Messiah. And Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. That word is elsewhere used in the gospel for how you speak to demons. Right? So when you see Jesus doing what he does to demons, that's the same word. So, I mean, goodness me, that's, that's tough.
John: [00:26:24] strong,
David: [00:26:25] And then, and then in case you missed it, that's what's happening. Jesus turns around and then does the same thing back to Peter and says, get behind me. And then he uses this phrase. This is this Hebrew word for the tempter, the evil one, the accuser like , this is a big, we naturally think about the devil and we immediately have an image in our mind, but in the Hebrew culture, this is this very shadowy, strange. Character isn't isn't you know, Satana is, is, is not Not someone to be messed with, but, but definitely this evil is evil sort of thing that, that Jesus surf places upon him. But I think it's worth knowing that the word literally means the tempting one. So, so get behind me. You tempt her says, Jesus, Peter, that's going to need a little unpacking, I think as we, as we go through this, but let me go back to my question, John, for a second, you are, the Messiah says Peter is Peter, right? Okay.
And I want to give a game away just early, because as we've said a few times that two texts is not a mystery podcast where we live, reveal everything at the end. But if you're, if you're reading this and you're just, or, or, you can just remember just scroll back a little bit to just what happened with the miracle that led just previous to this.
So it should, Jesus spits in the mind's eyes and the man's eye sockets puts his hand on him and says, do you see it. I see people, they look like trees walking around. So let me ask you a question. That's not in the text. Can the man see, so let's just play play the roll out for a second, John.
So if I say to you at this point in this story, can the man see, what's your response?
John: [00:28:00] Yeah. He can see, but clearly not clearly he's seeing something, but he's not seeing what he needs to see.
David: [00:28:06] So yeah, a hundred percent. So you, you almost go kind of as your answer. I think, I don't want to say no, but if people look like trees, then I don't want to say yes either. And I think this is where you start to see the genius of mark.
John: [00:28:20] So good.
David: [00:28:21] Who do people say that I am? Peter says you're the Messiah is Peter, right?
And on one level, let me just remove all the tension for our listeners. Yes, pizza is Right. Okay. But then when Jesus starts to unpack what it means to be the Messiah, Peter takes Jesus site and rebukes him Like a demon. At which point you realize. When Peter said you are the Messiah, whatever Peter's image of what the Messiah was, doesn't line up with Jesus's image of what the desire in the Messiah is when he teaches about it.
A friend of mine, friend of mine, Paul Gibbs tells a story of the day that he proposed to his wife. And he says that I asked. my wife to marry me. And she said, yes, but I realized after many years that what we both were thinking, we were talking about. Was different things, looking at it from the outsiders.
Everybody was agreeing to what was going on here. And I, and it's almost that I love that little image. I've used it a few times. I've stolen it from Paul that's exactly. Peter says, Yes. you are the Messiah. As long as I get to define what a Messiah is, but when Jesus starts to define what the Messiah is, then it's not quite correct, is it is it's out of sync.
So Jesus then has this challenge. With Peter, get behind me, Satan, you don't have in mind the concerns of God, but just human concerns. And then he says, and move it onto my 8 34. Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves, take up their cross and follow me. Whoever wants to save their life will lose it.
Whoever loses the life for me and for the gospel. We'll see. What good is it for someone to gain the whole world yet, yet give up their very being and what can anyone give in exchange for their being? So, so, you get part two and what?
I like to try, I do these two stories. So you have the story of the man potentially with new eyes and you have this story now of, of, of Jesus.
And Peter's question about, is he the Messiah, lay them next to each other. And I think you see the genius of mark the storyteller now. You have a man, Kenny C, well, he can kind of see, but he needs a second intervention from Jesus to clarify. Now you can see properly. Now we go over to the disciples.
Are they Right.
That Jesus is the Messiah. Well, yes they are. But kind of not because they're still holding onto their ideas of what the Messiah is. So Jesus comes in for a second round and, and you pointed at the language. It's just, it's just Brilliant.
Jesus there is. He teaches these things plainly to them.
He's trying to move them into full sight.
John: [00:30:57] Amazing amazing. And on what I mean, I think what an encouragement and help that is to all followers of Jesus or anyone seeking to engage with Jesus is that, that like Peter sometimes metaphorically, unlike this man, literally we can see. Man lake trees walking, w we, we think we see God. We think we see Jesus.
And to an extent we are seeing Jesus and jet that, that mosque. Lead us further. We, we must never, we must never stop and go. Well, no, I, I, I see. So, I mean, imagine had the blind, the man who had been blind, imagine if he had said yeah, yeah, it's fine. I see. Everything's everything's cool. Then, then he would have walked around thinking humans look like trees.
David: [00:31:49] Yes, yes.
John: [00:31:51] So he can see, but he can't see clearly, which is the whole again, w the text, isn't it. Have you got eyes to see is the previous question. And then he saw clearly, and then you've got Jesus explaining clearly. So that there's this idea. Listen, if you just sat all for managed trees, walking.
David: [00:32:13] Hm.
John: [00:32:14] going to miss the real thing.
Are you the Messiah? Yes, of course you are the Messiah. Absolutely. You are. But, but if Peter stays there, he ends up seeing a Messiah. That's like a tree walking instead of the real true life-changing Messiah. My goodness. What a challenge that is to me, I, in my own relationship with Jesus, I don't, I don't want to say, oh, from my version of him, I don't want to settle for my tree walking version of Jesus.
I want to. Yes, I do see, or some stuff I do see, but helped me see more, helped me see clearly helped me get really you and not my definition of you are not my personal preference of you. And I think seriously, there will be so of our listeners and I guarantee it, David I'm guaranteeing it or their money back.
Right.
David: [00:33:14] from this free podcast.
John: [00:33:15] Absolutely. That when they, when they listen to this and see those three stories put together the , the, the beautiful story of the healing and the, what comes before and what comes after, and they put those together, their jaws will hit the floor, because again, it's leaning into this idea, not only as Jesus healing people and not only assess a sign of, of his Messiah ship, but there is profound layers of messaging.
Going on to his cold community to really not just look at the miracle. Wow. Wouldn't it be cool to lay hands on someone and grow eyeballs and absolutely. That would be cool, but that, isn't the only point of all of this it's. Hey, do you see, can you see who I am? And will you deny yourself in the scene of that scene?
Oh, David that's just seriously and it's so good.
David: [00:34:15] Think about the narrative and, and this there's a lot of things to say about this, but Jesus says, Okay.
let me unpack what a Messiah is then. And Peter sitting there and Peter's going, mm. No, I'm not on board with this.
This is not what I signed up for. So he has the, the F he feels that he has the ability to go to Jesus and rebuke him. Right. I mean, that's quite something, but, but there in lies the discipleship warning. So my take on the gospels is that while they're telling us about Jesus, they're also telling us how to be good disciples of Jesus.
Right? So it's almost like there's this warning be careful of forcing Jesus into your box that you have. This is what I'd like Jesus to be like. And I would say, you can see that across, lots of Christianity, this, let me pick on some low hanging fruit for a second. But I think about that with like the prosperity gospel messages, I would like to be wealthy and comfortable.
Well, wouldn't we all right. He's like, let's just. Try and pretend that I'm pious here. For example, it would be lovely to not worry about money, but what can happen is I can then say, oh, and I think that's what God wants me for. That's what God wants for me too. So let me, let me squeeze my image of Jesus in a now proclaimer Jesus.
That just wants you to be rich and happy, right?
John: [00:35:28] Yeah,
David: [00:35:29] And we're going to be careful about that because you're now going to move to, what is it? Jesus says to Peter you've, you've got the wrong things in mind. You've got human things in mind and God's trying to do God's things here. So w I, I would say it would be very normal for me or any of our listeners to go.
Could it be nice to have a little bit more. Right. But, and that's fine. I don't even think that's an ungodly thing to think. It would be nice to have a little bit more money, but when I start trying to leverage Jesus and teach him and present him and live him out and only be satisfied with him when he does that for me, then I'm now getting into, I'm trying to overwhelm God's agenda with, with my own agenda.
And I think that that's a danger for me, John, on a pretty daily basis. I would like God to be a little bit more like, I would like him to be.
John: [00:36:15] And listen, if we're all going to be honest, and I'm sure that people connect them with our, with our podcasts, it, if you're serious as a follower of Jesus, we're all admitted to that stuff. I mean, we have all mirrored him in our image or we've all wanted him to be a bit more like sympathetic to my cause and maybe less insistent on his
David: [00:36:40] And maybe, and maybe less sympathetic to other people's causes
John: [00:36:43] indeed,
David: [00:36:44] I'd like him to be more graceful to me and a little angry with everybody else.
John: [00:36:47] course.
I think you see Jesus wrestled with his lovely young disciples, you know, call down fire from heaven and burn them up moments. It's all going on there and you, and he manages the extremity, the polarization, the division, the pin within his own society that has literally been manifest in the lives of these young disciples that he's known leading and developing and growing and trying to help them.
See, so, so theologically forgive me, listeners for theologically spitting in their eyes, essentially. He wants them to see something that they are struggling to see, and they're not struggling to see it because they're barred. They're struggling to see it because that's what they've been taught.
They should.
David: [00:37:35] Yeah.
John: [00:37:36] And they've been conditioned to seeing the world a certain way. I often repeat this in a slightly different context, but as humans, we often see the world as we are not as it is, so. It's just amazing, I'm, I'm male, I'm heterosexual. I'm I'm, wait I'm I'm Western.
So I I'm, I'm all the time having to recognize that I'm seeing my world through all of those lenses, which is not necessarily. A bad thing, but of course it can become barred. When that's the only lens I choose to look through and being a follower of Jesus, of course, I have to bring my whiteness, my maleness, my Western NUS, everything that I am, and I have to filter that through him or, or even even to use our miracle, allow him to create some new eyeballs in me and help me to see something I've never seen.
David: [00:38:34] And, and that's a beautiful part of the story as, as well. So just, think about the ridiculousness of it. You guys, you get not even get what's going on here. Do you have eyes, but you don't see and let's have this little miracle story. Okay. So who do you think I am? Well, we think you're this. Yeah.
Well, that's fine. If you think I'm this, this is what this means. Messiah means this. Okay.
No, we're not Okay,
with that. So, Peter, I'm going to rebuke you. Jesus. And Jesus and a fairly harsh exchange rebuked, Peter, get behind me, Satan cause interesting and notice this by the way, just struck me, just know John terrible, terrible presenting for them to bring something.
And I've only just noticed Peter takes Jesus aside. Remember the man was taken aside privately from the village. Peter takes Jesus aside privately, but Jesus. Turns around and readdressing the disciples. So Peter says, Peter takes these aside privately and rebukes him, but Jesus turned looks at his disciples and rebukes Peter, get behind me, Satan, you do not have in mind the concerns of God and merely human concerns.
But then, and I think this is beautiful and then that's it dealt with? Right? So then he gathers everybody back himself. Again, pizza is not outcast, right? Pizza is not. I don't want it. We're going to do mark nine as part of this season. So I don't want to give too much away, but the next story Jesus takes Peter and one other disciple into a beautiful moment in the presence of God who versus before he said to Peter, I get behind me, Satan.
Like if ever you want a model for how to disciple people is let your disciples make mistakes. And, but don't then, he doesn't get, he doesn't get like, sort of put on the naughty list. He doesn't write pizza you're in the back of the class, John you're number one. Let's let's go with Andrew. Nobody hears about him, much
John: [00:40:19] Yeah.
David: [00:40:20] fattiness, He doesn't do any of that.
If Peter is allowed to do that, there's two things about how do we model our Christianity to others. I'm going to follow Jesus. People are going to come to me perhaps and look for guidance. They're going to make mistakes. Like, there's a question for us as the church. How do we navigate when people make mistakes?
And I don't just mean church leaders. I mean, how do we in the community, like I have lived in communities where, and, and worked in. Christian communities and be part of Christian community communities. Someone's marriage has fallen apart. And even though theologically the church, you're Okay.
with that. And pastorally, the church can say these things happened, the community have turned on each other and started drawing sites.
And here you have Peter telling Jesus in the language of how you cast out demons. I don't like what you're saying and Jesus doesn't sideline him. And then there's a other level to that is. I have, I have, as a pastor had people say to me, yeah.
But if I said this to God, surely God wouldn't forgive me.
And there's this beautiful sense of, or Peter talked to Jesus, like he was a demon and Jesus forgave him for it. Jesus moved on from it. And in fact, took him into this incredible series of experiences afterwards. Like it's all there in the text, John, isn't it for
John: [00:41:36] so rich, it's so powerful. And I think, hopefully, for us as followers of Jesus and hopefully for, for those that listen to this, it's, it's recognizing. To, to use a well-worn motif that walking with Jesus is a journey. It is a pilgrimage. It's not, you get everything done loaded to your spirit at the start and you've got it all.
But actually the, we are transformed. We are learning. We are changing. We are growing. We are progressing from seeing trees that are. Like men or a man, like trees walking too, to actually seeing clearly. And what a beautiful thing that is. That's a hope for us, all that the Lord doesn't cost us off, but he takes us on a journey and is patient with us until we ourselves can see clearly.
So what, what a beautiful, magnificent, glorious story with. New ones, either side of the miracle on so much to teach us about not only the work of Jesus, but following Jesus. Just love it. Beautiful.
David: [00:42:49] Again, Richard Hayes has this little comment and he says, he says, this mark has placed this odd little episode immediately before the pivotal conversation that Cesary of Philippi in order to signal that the disciples are about to undergo the process of having their vision here.
But gradually rather than all at once. And so it's, it's a sense of be patient with yourself. Jesus is working and he's doing big work, Jesus is. Yeah.
I mean, look at what he says in verse 34, whoever wants to be disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. So the cross of Jesus is going to be what defines, how we live and how we behave as followers of Jesus is so contrary to what we're expecting and understanding.
And I love this idea that Jesus is patient with us in
John: [00:43:38] Yeah. Beautiful.
David: [00:43:39] just, there's so much rush. So often I think I've encountered this So many times in my experience of church life that we want everything now. And we're not only for ourselves, but for others. Well that person's deciding to follow Jesus.
Why are they still struggling with X, Y, and Z? Well, you could be hanging around with Jesus for a long time and see a lot of miracles and still not quite understand what it means for him to be the Messiah, the Christ and Jesus is patient with that. And I just think it's fantastically beautiful.
that we can take this, .
In fact, the whole of the chapter, just to read the Jesus can provide food and Jesus can heal , the person who is blind and yet at the end of the chapter, Jesus says, do you have it? What good is it? If you gain the whole world and then lose your end, that the Greek word is suitcase.
They're like your whole it's often translated soar, but I think that's too reductionist, but lose your whole being lose, lose who you are. And so at Peter's almost wanting to challenge Jesus. No, no, no, no, no. Don't like the way you do that, and Jesus is saying. There's more to this than the way you're seeing it.
It's different. It's just, I think then what we see is that and why I think it's helpful to jump into this passage here is that we're, getting a, a bigger lens then as to how Jesus is setting out his miraculous ministry as a guide for us, while also caring about the marginalized.
John: [00:45:10] Oh, it's beautiful. It's beautiful. And, and just as this, we're drawing this to a close really, what, what came across my mind as you were just speaking there, it was Paul's prayer for the church at Ephesus. I pray that you will have the spirit of wisdom and revelation so that you will know him.
And that that's all arts, isn't it, as we've talked together, as we've shared together as we've journey together we, we just want to know him more and we don't want anything, whatever that anything is to get in the way of seeing who he is, seeing, what he can do and, and seeing him formed in
David Harvey: [00:45:48] Okay. That's it for this episode. If you want to get in touch with either of us about something we said, you can reach out on podcast@twotexts.com or by liking and following the two tacks podcast on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and YouTube. If you enjoyed this episode, we'd love it. If you left a review on your podcast app or said hi in one of our social media sites, and if you really enjoyed this podcast, why not share it with a friend?
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