Episode 70: John Wilkins, Commercial Director Penn Croft Vineyards & Itasca Wines

Joining me on this week's episode of The English Wine Diaries is John Wilkins, Commercial Director at Itasca Wines and Penn Croft Vineyards in Hampshire. 

Itasca Wines is a sustainable full contract winemaking company, which under the lead of award-winning winemaker Ben Smith, delivers a grape to bottle service for a host of top wine brands and premium boutique vineyards across the UK.

Ben and the Itasca team also produce wines from grapes grown in their own vineyard, Penn Croft, where they have 16,000 vines of Chardonnay, Pinot Noir, Pinot Meunier and Bacchus. 

The business is the shared vision of local farmer and sustainable agriculture expert, Simon Porter, and filmmaker Malcolm Walker, whose credits include Star Wars, Aliens and wine documentary show Cellar Rats. 

Central to their business vision is sustainability and a mission to drive adoption of biodiverse viticulture and they have invested huge amounts into sustainability-focused innovations including a natural wetlands system so no waste water leaves the site, a solar farm for electricity and thermo controlled tanks. 

This, they say, is because they are in it for the long run and want to make wine in a way that not only protects, but actively gives back to the natural world.

To find out more follow @penncroftvineyards and @itascawines on Instagram.

This episode of The English Wine Diaries is brought to you in partnership with New Dawn Pubs and The Red Lion in Odiham, where you can book a Pinot & Pyjamas weekender, which includes a 2-night weekend stay, early check-in, or late check-out, a welcome glass of wine each, your choice of two nibble dishes to share, plus a £100 food and drink credit and 10% off a Penn Croft Wine Tasting & Tour - all for just £365. Visit redlionodiham.co.uk and keep an eye out on socials for your chance to win a Pinot & Pyjamas stay!

With thanks, as always to our series sponsor, Wickhams, The Great British Wine Merchant. Visit wickhamwine.co.uk to see their award-winning range of English wine with free delivery on orders over £40. The English Wine Diaries listeners can also get 10% discount on their first purchase by entering the code TEWD10. Please drink responsibly.

Thanks for listening to The English Wine Diaries. If you enjoyed the podcast then please leave a rating or review, it helps boost our ratings and makes it easier for other people to find us. To find out who will be joining me next on the English Wine Diaries, follow @theenglishwinediaries on Instagram and for more regular English wine news and reviews, sign up to our newsletter at thesouthernquarter.co.uk.

Transcript

This episode is brought to you in partnership with New Dawn Pubs, the fiercely independent pub company fuelled by delicious food, refreshing drinks and human connection.
Each of New Dawn's pubs across Surrey and Hampshire pay homage to the wholesome Great British pub experience we all crave, a relaxed environment for real -life social encounters,
great food made from locally sourced ingredients and drinks from local suppliers, which of course means they serve plenty of English wine. As founders Mark Robson and Mark Williams put it,
we're proud to be your local. Find a New Dawn pub and check out their food and drink producer directory at newdawnpubs .co .uk. Hello and welcome to the English Wine Diaries.
Thanks for tuning in. For those of you who don't know me, I'm your host Rebecca Pickham, a journalist and founder of The Southern Quarter, an online magazine all about English wine.
This podcast is all about the people behind the industry and their incredible stories, which I can't wait to share with you. So join me as I sit Sit down with sommeliers,
vineyard owners, winemakers and some rather familiar faces too and discover how a love of wine, particularly that made on British soil, has helped shape their lives and careers.
Welcome to the English Wine Diaries. The English Wine Diaries is kindly sponsored by Wickham's Wine Merchant. Alongside our world -beating sparklers.
England also produces some stunning steel wines. Yes, the grape variety, location and winemaking matter, but Wickham's expertly curated selection and 100 % satisfaction guarantee is a great way to explore this burgeoning category.
Some of my favourites are Lime Bay's 2021 Chardonnay, Biddenin's 2022 Gamay and Huxfair's 2022 orange bear, which is made from Chardonnay,
not oranges. Visit wickandwine .co .uk and get 10 % off using the code TEWD10. That's TEWD10.
Always remember to drink responsibly. Join me on Today's episode of the English Wine Diaries is John Wilkins,
commercial director at Itasca Wines and Pencroft vineyards in Hampshire. Itasca Wines is a sustainable, full -contract winemaking company, which under the lead of award -winning winemaker Ben Smith delivers a grape to bottle service for a host of top wine brands and premium boutique vineyards across the UK.
Ben and the Itasca team also produce wines from grapes grown in their own vineyard, Pencroft, where they have 16 ,000 vines of Chardonnay, Pinot Noir, Pinot Monnier and Bacchus.
The business is the shared vision of local farmer and sustainable agricultural expert Simon Porter and filmmaker Malcolm Walker, whose credits include Star Wars, Aliens and Wine Documentary show Seller Rats.
Central to their business vision is sustainability and a mission to drive adoption of biodiverse viticulture, and they have invested huge amounts into sustainability -focused innovations,
including a natural wetland system so no wastewater leaves the site, a solar farm for electricity and thermocontrol tanks. This, they say, is because they are in it for the long run and want to make wine in a way that not only protects but it gives back to the natural world.
John, thank you so much for joining me today. How are you? Absolutely fantastic. A dam site better than what the weather is. I know it's horrendous, isn't it? It's really horrendous.
I should add that a few weeks back, you gave me a tour of the lovely winery and it is really quite something and we will talk about that as we go on. But I wanted to ask you if you could tell me a bit more about that initial meeting of like minds between Malcolm and Simon,
and how exactly Otasca and Pencroft sort of came about? Well, in the early day, what happened is that Malcolm was already renting premises up at the farm there, and he was loading up one of his vehicles to go off and make another episode of Seller Rats,
which abroad. He made it into Europe. It might have been Portugal, it might have been Spain, one of those two. And then Simon had mentioned he obviously likes wine, had always thought about doing the wine and vines.
And then Malcolm said, "Well, I know we can do it. I've got contacts, et cetera, et cetera." And how Mr. Walker works within several months, bang! There it was.
Now, it's quite funny because in the November of 2018, he took me to a field and said, this is where we're going to plant vines. And I've known Malcolm a long time. And I thought, okay,
you know, go with that one. And he said, this is your job, should you accept it? So it was all very mission impossible. And I thought, yeah, okay, we'll have some of that. And then left it, you know, I've forgot about it. And I actually was involved with the training company at that time with apprenticeships and in sport,
hospitality and leisure. And then, although, you know, to some people, it was the worst thing ever, COVID came along. We started building in the March 2020 because of the fact that we COVID and they were builders were out there in the middle of nowhere.
It wasn't really affecting anything. So, the winery started in the March. I think Ben joined in the April and then in the May, Malcolm said, you might as well come and start now. So, I thought,
great. Okay. I did a little bit of research. And then the first thing I said to him, "Have you registered the vineyard?" And he said, "What?" And I said, "Okay, we'll go there." And then the next 18 months were spent doing all the different licenses that you need from AWS and registered as a trade facility premises license for the tours around the winery because that's all we had then was just the winery.
And that's how it started. It's funny because you're telling me about all those kind of the logistics side of it and everything because we often on the podcast and the stories that you hear in newspapers and everything about these wonderful journeys of people that have planted these vines and Itasca has been a brilliant journey.
But obviously, there is all that nitty -gritty stuff that probably people don't think about, do they? And that's kind of been your kind of real big aim and part of your role at Atasca.
Yeah, I mean, one of the idea that the vision was almost like what we've got now in terms of the of the cellar door and the hospitality side was to build up the tours and then have a cellar door where we could sell our wine and things like that.
But exactly what you just said, you know, there was all this other stuff before. So it was a case of, okay, so I sort of did a bit of that. And then I was out trying to sell wine that we hadn't even made.
So I was trying to get to places and lots and lots of people I know will relate to this because over the last few years, I've visited a lot of other wineries and vineyards and we're all trying to do the same thing.
But at that time, I look back and think, crikey. I don't know how I was doing that. I was selling a wine that didn't exist, which is incredible because I've just written an email today to quite a famous restaurant restaurant chain regarding our portfolio wine.
So, I've gone from having these one bottle to now we've got this five or six of which you've tasted some of them. Yeah, and we will talk about those as well soon. What I wanted to do though is go back just to give our listeners a little bit of an idea of what Pencroft is like.
So, Pencroft is the farm and that's the farm that's owned by Simon, isn't it? - It is. - Yeah. - That's where the name comes from.
I mean, that's where the Pencroff name comes from. - Yes. - And maybe, your next question might be, where did the name Itasca Wines come from? - Well, it was, Steve, yes.
- I thought it might be because a number of times, and the thing is, if there was, again, we were, that's so many times, so in the end, you have to say, sit, Malcolm, down, sit for Christ, will you tell us where that name comes from.
And basically, he owned, he owned, he was doing some work with America, and he owned a lot of Winnie bagos. And one of them was called Itasca. It was an Itasca Winnie bago.
And then when it came down to doing the winery, and he was searching for a name, I believe Karen, his wife said to him, well, what about Itasca? Okay,
so then he used that name since then because he's now sort of also involved with Itasca, obviously Itasca Films and Itasca Studios. And then Itasca Wines then is, for one of a better word,
the umbrella company, then under that, as you know, because you've been down there, then we've got the wine, we've got the cellar door and all the other things that go with that, with the pencroft. So let's just,
because obviously I've been down to the winery, but let's talk people through what you sort of see. Because when I was down, it was on the most beautiful, I mean, it was the hottest day of the year, very different to what it is today. But you walk down and obviously there are,
you know, fields as far as the eye can see, which is all sort of land that's predominantly owned by Simon. And the family, I think it's in Bournemouth West and that family.
And then you sort of drive down this, this sort of, you know, track as it were with fields, fields either side. And then it sort of opens in and you then you do see this very, very pretty cellar door, which you've established there,
which obviously came sort of slightly after the winery is that right? Yeah. Yeah. Well, because we always knew once we opened it, and we'd got some wine, we wanted to do tours and we wanted to do the tastings.
So the, in fact, it was delayed because really, come the end of this month, we will have been open for a year. So, you know, we didn't open it until the beginning of August to 2023.
So it was a little bit longer than what we would have hoped for. So we were a little bit nomadic in there because we sort of first of all used the office up in the winery when we did our first few tours and then we sort of moved to another bit of the building and another bit of the building.
Then at one stage we were up across the field up at the farm because they got a room and easy. The tour and events made it a great job creating this, this gorgeous space,
which since then, Malcolm's now converted into a podcast studio, actually. So yes, and now we've got that and that and it's great. And we've been out of sort of utilised that with tours and also the natural reaction.
It was incredible really because so many people used to come along and when they saw what was happening and it was being built. And when Malcolm was about to walk in his dog, and they'd be saying, "When are you going to open? We'd love to come in for coffees." And cyclists would come around.
And it's one of those things now that come on a Thursday morning, for instance, or a Friday morning, you will get group... And not just the weekends, but these Thursday and Friday, you will get these groups of cyclists come down and mums with the babies and that kind of thing,
and there's a great atmosphere in there. Because I think it was a Thursday when you came there, was it? I think it was, yes. Yes, I think it was. Yeah, and it is lovely. And you've got, you know,
you can, you're sitting there, but you can also sort of see the sort of, you feel like you're quite involved because you can see the sort of workings and the busy sort of things going on with people coming in and out of the winery. Obviously, I had a tour of the winery,
and as I said in the intro, it is quite something. You've got some real state -of -the -art equipment in there. Why was - Where did the contract wine making come in? Because obviously initially it was about planting vines and making something and making some English wine.
When was it sort of decided that, you know, you wanted to make wine for other people? - Well, I think fairly early on really, because, you know, once you've planted those vines as lots of people will know,
you've then got to wait for them to grow. 'Cause unbelievably, it doesn't just magically happen. And then obviously, with Ben coming on board and him having contacts within it.
And Malcolm, again, he'd seen this gap in the market in terms of contract winemakers. And if you look around, there aren't that many. And really,
the idea was to come in and not just play at it, but be a proper player. Hence the fact that we've got that fabulous winery. And that's where it came about. And then of course,
as we are now four years later, now we're getting inquiries all the time to make wine for other people. And just so you get an idea, it goes as far as Devon the one way and Kent the other.
It's a strange thing because we don't go particularly particularly far north up like where I am now. But we do stretch across the whole of the south and it varies between sparkling and steel wines as well. So in the winery,
there's been a lot of money invested into the sustainability side of it. And that's something that's really, really central to the business. Obviously, there was a gap in the market in terms of contract winemaking,
the fact that there's not many contract winemakers around. But why was the sustainability elements so important to Malcolm and Simon. - I think that Simon was very much about the sort of regenerative farming.
And funny enough, last week we had a workshop at the winery again, like we did last year. And so, the story goes that he hadn't plowed a field for 20 -odd years, and now he actually maintains and manages our vineyard and the vines.
And if you were to go with him on a tour of the vineyards, he's very passionate about the soil and you've been to many vineyards and I've taken you to Haas and you'll see others that are beautiful and pristine and they've got rose bushes and cut lawn and et cetera.
And Haas isn't like that, but we have got this new mantra now that scruffy is good. So you've got all those wildflowers and the cover crops that go in the middle of them. And I don't know, I think it's also, people are really are really interested in that as well.
As I said to you when you were down, roughly, I'll figure something, roughly five, six, seven liters of water to make a liter of wine and all that waste was going to somewhere, which is why it then goes up to that Aussie pool,
as they call it, which holds about half a million liters, and then pumped through the straw bales and through the wetlands. And we've had, and that's something else, we're very proud of that. And we've had a lot of other visitors from other wineries to come and have a look and you know and take ideas from it which is which is great.
And that's the thing is you mentioned you know you do work you have done workshops you want to share this and show people that actually this is the kind of future of how we make our wine and it's not obviously it's difficult sometimes with some people it's expensive but then I suppose that is something that you are offering people that perhaps can't afford to do it themselves.
There is that element there. Yeah, I mean, this is it. They do vary in size. I mean, yeah, it'd be great to name drop, but it's best what we don't. But some of these vineyards, for instance,
they range from maybe they're only got one and a half tonne to others that have got 20, 30, 50 odd tonne. And as you said earlier on, not everybody wants to invest in a winery because it does take a lot of money.
Those pieces of kit are not cheap. But they do get involved. The thing is with Ben and the team in there, the clients are allowed then,
they come along and they'll do sort of tastings with them along the journey. I hate that word. So that they can sort of have an involvement which is which is great because then at least they can go away and think well you know they did at least they didn't just grow the grapes they've actually contributed to the to how it tastes as well.
I think that's a really important part of it and actually I have interviewed one of your clients before I won't say which one and that was something that they did say was very very important to them and how it would they were so closely involved in in every step with being in the relationship if I remember it is yes yes and you know And that was something that they felt was really special about the relationship and
made them feel like they were really involved. So I think that's maybe a misconception of a lot of people that, you know, old people grow grapes and then they just send them off and then don't really get involved in the making of the wine.
But I'm sure that's true at some places. I'm not convinced that everybody does that. But it's just something that Ben has started from the start and it carries on.
Now, they're not coming in there and pressing the grapes or anything else, but they are, they come along and they ask what kind of style are you looking for.
So they have an input from the off really. So tell us, let's go back and tell us about the first harvest. What was that like?
And how have you kind of grown since then? Well, the first harvest, 2020, you went outside the back there and you saw where the tanks are and the presses.
And 2020, remember that everybody got wet because there was no roof out there or anything like that. And again, we didn't know what was going to happen. we probably pressed,
I think it was around about 100 tonne because we also had a client from abroad that had sensed some juice over, which again, because we were still well under COVID rules,
it took forever to be able to get that release because I was having to have two and three hour telephone interviews with people from HMRC and other various departments because they weren't prepared to come out.
So, it was exciting. It was hectic. And then, lo and behold, the following year, then we sort of tweaked things around.
We built a roof over the pressing area out there. And then that jumped up to 250 -odd ton. That year, I remember, because we're being 2021,
I was probably director of bins, because getting getting all those dolabs out. And then we move into sort of 22, and then Cat was come on board then as head of operations.
And it was great because I could hand over the director of bins title and go from there. So, and that's how it's changed. There's more tanks in there now. And finally, when the last lot are put in,
as it's happening now, actually, for this harvest, then we should be at around about 600 ton capacity, which is what the aim was from the start.
It's incredible. And as you say, quite a quick despite having... This is going to be our fifth harvest. I can't believe that. Who believed that is incredible. And having COVID and everything to contend with in the middle of that is What about your own wine?
So when did, because obviously, as you said, it takes a little bit of time to make wine, and so the contract wine making started happening first, and you brought in grapes for your first release of wine.
Is that right? Yes. Yeah. For that first, what we would call that Pencroff Reserve Packers, so they were brought in,
because it was only, it's only 2022 where we've had our single vineyard backers, which was that one that you saw with the black label. So that was quite,
actually got quite a proud moment. But of course, what not everybody realised is that we actually now sort of manage the old jenkin place vineyards as well. So a lot of the fruit from that went to our sparkling wines.
And Jen can place for those that don't know is another sort of vineyard on the edge of Hampshire, isn't it? It's only about which probably only 10 minutes or so away in Bentley and was very well established and they were producing sparkling wines for a good 15 years and lovely sparkling wines as well.
But they sort of decided that they didn't want to carry on anymore and to retire and so it was kind of natural fit really for us then to get involved with that and that's a beautiful place because that's one of the things when there's the contrast between our scruffy is good and Jenkins plays the first time I went there and I thought oh wow you know and it was because that would be probably in 2021 it was a
beautiful day. I've still got the pictures on my phone. They've got this lovely sort of moan grass in between each one and the rose bushes at the end. They've got this beautiful bands down there.
And then obviously ours is very different because ours is a much more rustic and wild. Rustic and wild and of the people. Yeah, definitely. And don't forget,
and don't forget we've got - The bees down there doing their thing as well. - Exactly, back to the wine, sorry. So the Bacchus reserve was your first? - Yeah.
- And how did that sort of go? What was it like when you first had that first taste of the first? - Well, fortunately, as that was being made, we'd be tasting it from the tanks as well.
And Bennett called a tasting session and we'd go and try it. And you go, "Ooh !" So, wow! And the reviews from it were brilliant,
absolutely superb. And then we also, sort of in 2021, had the Pino Blanc, which that fruit came in from Essex. Very different,
obviously, to Bakker's, but absolutely gorgeous and may still probably be my favourite. And then the sparkling wines.
Yeah, that's weird. Yeah, there you go. I'm lying again because the sparkling wines are great as well and I absolutely love our Rose Reserve that we kind of only released a couple of months ago. And then the white sparkling,
the Pencroff Village sparkling that we released round about December time are great. And, you know, they go really well. They are staying really well in the cellar door throughout the winter and also now obviously with the summer here as well.
Well, when I look at the window up here, it's not quite the summery, but it's a gorgeous drink. And go back and tell us about the black label because that one was particularly sort of special for you.
Yeah, because that was from Pencroft. That was from Pencroft Vineyard. And, I mean, once they claim to fame with that,
but I'm really pleased that somebody like Cowworth Park Hotel, they took that on board, and they've had some of that, and they had a wine there, Sandro,
he sent me a picture of it sat alongside all these other prestigious wines in their fridge of their Michelin -starred restaurant, and for those that don't know, Cowworth Park, it's part part of the Dorchester collection.
I'm not sure we've made enough as much of that as we should, actually, but that was a proud day. Obviously, that is part of your role, spreads across.
You've got the sort of sell -a -door side of things that you're trying to obviously push the sales there, but also you've got the on -trade as well, where you're trying to get into all these sort of restaurants. You say that was a proud moment.
Any other sort of moments that you can think of from that side of things? Yeah, I mean, if we go back, because I've been there from the start,
so different things have evolved as I've gone on. Ideally, this was the kind of situation we were hoping to get to, whereby now we'd have someone else doing some of the operation So I would say that probably our first client was,
and I'm quite happy to say this because there are only 10 minutes down the road, was the four seasons at Hampshire, who took that. And again, due to COVID,
we were able to have the whole of the F &B team, about 24 people over two days in 2021, I don't know, looking back now,
I'm not sure how we did it. I remember going in Convoy, up the vineyard in different cars, and that stage was using my wife's mini. I don't think she's ever forgave me for that because it's not really built. It wasn't a John Cooper works mini.
So we went up the vineyard, took them around, they had a taste of that, and then they ordered about 20 -yard cases of that particular wine. That was great because that was great for our story to be able to go out know,
over the years, when I've sort of been in business over the, if you've got a little bit to help that story and you can drop one or two names, it really, really helps. And that was great.
And one of the other things when we first started, Malcolm and I had said to each other, "Would it be great if we could, you know, get one of our wines into a pig hotel?" And again,
another great moment when those guys sort of were very supportive of and the whole English wine industry. When they took some of the wine as well and at one stage that was a stage sort of last year where I had some wine,
everyone upset one, which was the one down in Cornwall. And we went down and see those guys, but I think that they get on very well with Sam down at Camel Valley and couldn't break into that one.
There are certain allegiances, aren't they? But overall, I think the English wine industry and all of us working together on our wines, it's a really supportive community.
Have you found that? Absolutely. I've never, I've said this when we're walking around different shows and this sort of tasting stuff like, I've never worked in a business like this where people are supportive and are so helpful and you know,
inadvertently come as competitors, but it doesn't matter because we're all really sort of, I believe, working for the greater good because of the English winding streak, you know, and so many different things happening out there and it's such a,
you know, sometimes, you know, I was thinking, Crocker, I wish I was 20 years younger, but 20 years ago, it wasn't like it is now. So maybe it wouldn't have made any difference. - Maybe not. It has definitely the pace in which it's growing and the excitement surrounding English wine is definitely over the last few years really,
really come together. And I think there's so much more to come. You and your personal sort of experience, can you remember the first time you ever tasted an English wine? - I can't,
absolutely, 'cause I knew you were gonna say something along these lines 'cause what I was gonna, I thought you were gonna say first of all, when did you first taste wine? And 'cause that was way back,
I remember in the early '80s and you'd sort of be drinking something like from Yugoslavia or Bulgaria on a Friday night with my mom if I hadn't gone out. So when I knew, Malcolm had explained what we're gonna try and do and moving forward.
I thought, I better start tasting them. And I, and it was a three choirs because I tried to stick to the Midlands because I live in the Midlands. And I, it was a three choirs rose. And three choirs is Gloucestershire,
isn't it? I think it is Gloucestershire. Yes. Thank you, Martin. I'll be down to see you next week, actually. And that was, yeah, and that was, and that was it. Oh, wow. Okay. Especially because normally,
you know, I would buy probably, you know, a risada, a ryaka. But like, this was a start. And then since then, obviously, I've, I won't say been through the card, but I've tried, tried quite a few.
But that was my first one, I'm definitely going to say it was three choirs. Did you ever think, you know, a few, because you've, you've not been working in English wine for all that long?
No. Was there ever, did you ever think in years gone by that you would be end up working in English wine? In English wine? No. No, definitely not. I mean, over the years,
I lived in and worked in hotels in Spain and I've been a hotel general manager where we opened an Italian restaurant and a sports bar and we had the hotel all in the same street in Warwickshire.
Never any inkling, no way was they going to get the owner there to take an English wine because I'm going back maybe 15 years then anyway. And I still can't get them to take it now because whilst they're buying in,
a Chilean Savvian Blanc for £4 a bottle. I can't get anywhere near that. And funny enough, there was someone else I went to see, a big hotel group the other week,
and £4 .87 a bottle they're buying. That includes duty from Chile. And they're selling 38 ,000 bottles of it at £30 a pop and don't believe at this point in time,
we can get anywhere near that. I mean, you bring up an interesting point there. I mean, that is something that obviously English Wine is at the higher end of the market in terms of pricing.
And that must be quite challenging. Can you see that changing in the not too distant future? And what sort of things do you think You can do or we can do as an industry to help with that with the challenges Go out and buy more It's it's interesting because there's so many different things going on and we've been with wine GB now as well so I've got involved in the several little subcommittees and one of them is
the sales and marketing group which again it would Exploring these what can we do to? sell more wine, what can we do to change public perception? And that kind of thing. Because one of the first things that always,
always, always, always gets mentioned is, oh, it's too expensive. Well, well, yeah, it is. Because, you know, we, as Pencro, certainly don't produce the kind of volumes that, that somebody in Chile,
Spain, Italy, Portugal can do. I'm sure it will, I'm sure it will change. And, You know, I expect us as Pencroft to have more bottles probably from this harvest than we had last year and the year before that But we just I mean the quality is the generally the quality is is good It's just trying to and it's an old -fashioned phrase and just trying to educate people That's you know what instead of buying two of them
just just buy this one Whether that works or not my wife would love me to do that, actually, just have one, not two. - And the perception of people coming through the cellar door,
I mean, what's the kind of makeup of the people that comes through, is it predominantly locals? - It's been interesting that because initially, yes,
I mean, there are still a lot of local and the demographic varies. I mean, when you were down there, that at a lunchtime. I know it was quite busy.
As I mentioned earlier, perhaps in the morning times, the moms and the toddlers, and maybe even sometimes later in the afternoon, we'll have cycling groups and all sorts.
Actually, it is available as well, so people can rent it, if you like, for different functions as well. But it just very,
and then you get to a Sunday where, you know, we were only, you know, 10 till two, and then the cops went forward to extended by a couple of hours. And suddenly that's increased business. Again, I think a lot of dog walkers,
we are very dog friendly. So it's across the board. And now they are traveling that wee bit further. So they're not just coming from the village.
They are coming from, doesn't sound a lot, but the other side of Farnham and various other areas so the word is spreading. You've got something for everybody in terms of you know you can sit and have a coffee and a cake you don't have to have the wine you can just sit and have a coffee cake obviously you want people to have the wine.
Yeah as many as you can. Talk us through because you did a little tasting for me so talk us through if someone was to come and to book in for a tasting and a tour what sort of experience would they get?
Um hopefully Hopefully, a very, very, very good one. Izzy's our tour manager. We try to make people really welcome. Initially, they arrive and they're going to have a little meet in the cellar door,
which was great because previously, until that was built, it was kind of having to meet in the winery. Normally, they meet there, generally going to minibus because the vineyard, for those that don't realise it isn't where the winery is.
It's actually about five minutes away. That's about right, isn't it? Five minutes? - So slightly less than that. I think about in a car, any three? - Yeah, so we get jump in a minibus up to there and have a glass of Fizz.
So again, prior to having our own Fizz, we used to sort of give a glass of Jenkins Place with that tenuous link at that stage. But now we've got our own.
So have a glass of beers. Izzy does a brilliant tour because she is part of the family that own and run the farm. So she has some great, great knowledge there. And then jump back in the bus,
come down, have a tour of the winery, go out the back there and wave my arms around a lot there. And the wetlands, the pool, the barrel room,
the glass room. And then back then into the cellar door for the cheese, charcuterie, and a tasting of our other wines.
And then the great thing is, which is what we always hope would happen, is that sometimes people may have gone on a 11 o 'clock tour and there's been many a time when I've been back then at five o 'clock and they're still there,
which is great. And then you see the taxi arrive and you're thinking that's a job well done. They've had a good time, yeah, particularly on a day like when I was there in the summers out. Let's pray for better weather. But obviously you have got the inside bit as well,
which is good. So you've got both inside and out, which is great. It really does help. Yeah, that really does help, especially with the little sort of verandah area. And then last and then we bought the screens and dropped them down so at least people are shielded when it throws it down and running.
You said there about taking your guests up for a glass of fizz in the vineyard and I think that's always something that comes up on this podcast whenever we're talking about English wine is sort of sense of place and how wonderful it is to be able to taste a wine in the place where it's,
you know, where it's come Tom, what about for you? Where's your sort of favourite place to drink wine, be it English or any other? My favourite place?
Well, again, I was sitting there on Sunday, so I think my real favourite place sometimes, apart from the obvious bit which I would say is down by the seaside,
be it Devon or I love, especially a Sunday if the weather is great in the back garden, in the back garden, you know, my wife and I are sitting there, catch running around and having the wine with the food that I've cooked.
I think that is great. What food and wine would that be? Well, we try to mix it up a bit. So when the summer comes, we flip from a traditional Sunday and try to go more Spanish,
my love of Spain comes through and more Mediterranean so I'll do fish and then we'll probably have a have a rose with that or a nice Chardonnay or of course a Pencroft backers.
Of course, I'm glad you said Chardonnay. Do you think that's a route that Pencroft might go down? A steel Chardonnay? I can't remember whether I told you or not before,
but yes, most definitely, we have one that's a single vineyard Chardonnay that is doing its thing in the tanks. This is from last year, 2023,
but Ben's not ready to release that yet, so that probably won't get released I'm biased because I love Sean always after I might be one of the few people that still likes the big,
fat, buttery, OP Chardonnay that everyone goes, and he's kind of green in colour. I still love that, especially with a bit of smoke, Sam. Oh, yeah. But is it going to be a big,
buttery one? It's surely not. No, no, no, no. That's not Ben Stahl. Ben did, you know, people who don't I mean, Ben, our head wine maker, he did once get 20 out of 20 from Matthew Dukesville Chardonnay that he made at Oxney.
I have to say, I have a bottle of that Oxney. Well, I don't know if it's that specific one, but I've got one, I think from, I can't remember what year it was. But anyway, and yeah, we bought a few bottles because it was absolutely delicious.
So I can't wait anyway for that Chardonnay because I'm a big Chardonnay fan as well. So I'm very pleased that you're doing that. - I'll let you know, I'll let you know. - What wine would you say has sort of in your journey,
I know you don't like that word, but what wine has surprised you the most? - In what respect, one of ours or somebody else's? - And any sort of just, with an English wine,
I suppose, are there any that particularly where you've kind of, you know, it might be a style of wine or? - Well, I guess, you know, I'm, Yeah, I would say I would say back us because I never heard of back us,
you know, and this might be a kind of a little bit lazy issue, isn't it? But you know, when people come along and they say, okay, Pinot Blanc, what's that like? It's a little bit like a,
you know, white burgundy and what's back us like kind of a bit savvy on Blonkey. But it was the only way of really for people that don't know it. So, I mean, So, I mean, there is a thing that in reality,
we have three backers, so you've got the Pencroff Village, which you technically, now these days, will call our entry level, you've got Pencroff Reserve backers, and then you've got the Single Vineyard backers. So,
and they are all different without a doubt. It's funny what you say about backers, actually, because I kind of found a little bit in previous years that I got a bit of like Bakker's fatigue almost like there was so much of it out there it was kind of what England had become famous for the signature grape.
And I kind of got turned off it a little bit and sort of but this year I've started to sort of try a few more and and it's amazing how obviously again different vintages as well such different expressions of these wines so it's I think that's important to that it's it's backers can be so different depending on obviously what you do with it.
Yeah I mean and I think that I think you tried two of them I'm fairly sure and that our three are very different and it was great. I had a meeting last week with another kind of large hotel chain and you know the the FMB director there that said that the single vineyard you know very elegant um and I like that that was a nice that was a nice phrase so I'm going to use that elegant I would agree I did try it
and I would agree it's very elegant wine um have you do you have a favorite wine memory I do and I think two I mean god bless her one I guess is is is is drinking wine with my mother um back in the 80s lute marise Lutema Riesling and some Bulgarian Chardonnay.
And then, I guess, when I went out to Spain as the holiday rep, and there you go, I've mentioned it, somebody was saying, "Oh, but you mentioned it. Yes, I have. You'd be disappointed if I didn't." I wonder how long it would take.
I've tried to fight back, but there was no way around it. I guess, yeah, because then that was, you know, it's 1984, '85. And And Spain with red reoccas were still unbelievable in my opinion now,
but they were still pretty okay then. But the white wines were, you probably, I believe, wouldn't have put it on your chips. So wine memories have changed. So going there and working for these guys who were older than me and more experienced for the holiday company I was working for,
and being introduced then to red wine, not just red wine, but red briocheas. So I guess that goes down as a memory as well. How are your feelings about reds,
English red? I've tried quite a few and I've tried some very pleasant ones. I think might be an age thinker. I like a little bit more Stonkiness,
having said that, having said that, I mean, there are some great Pinot Noir's out there, and I can completely contradict myself and, funnily enough, Ben made one that was more of an experiment.
And again, we had the guys around from the pig hotels, and they liked it, and they kept coming back and tasting it. In the end, I sold them the barrel, and they had all 50 bottles and they did a great job there because they kind of hand wrote on the front to one or two 52 to 250.
And that went down really well. And funnily enough, I went to see one of the hotels a couple of months back. And I said, how did the pin on the wall go? And he's fantastic.
He said, I've still kept some back. I said, I don't want to run out of it. So that was that was that's a lovely endorsement. So do you think there'll be more of that then from I do. Yes,
I mean, we still, we have made, and you know this because you went to see those people in the Southwest there, so Rosé sort of the people, but we will at some stage have our own still Rosé,
and we will have our own still being on OR as well. It's incredibly exciting times. I can't wait to see how your sort of journey continues. I've used that that word journey again,
we're going to have to come up with another word. But how the rest of your English wine life continues at Pen Crescent without Asuka. And I'm sure there'll be enough to do a part two. I always end the podcast with a question,
which is if there was one wine that you could not live without, what would it be and why? Well, I've got it. I'm going to be buy us then and plug plug our own one of our own wines because I think that our because when he's gone it's gone our Pinot Blanc is a stunner and it's sort of as I said I think he kind of has got that sort of begundian kind of feel to it and it goes great with pan -fried sea bass
because I've tried it and it also goes great with turkey Oh, lovely, because I replaced the shabby with our Pinot Blanc. Fantastic.
Well, there you go, everybody. You'd have to get it quickly, though, because I think it's almost gone, isn't it? Yeah, as well. There's only 900 bottles and we're down. There's still a few, but it's,
you know, I wonder, another guys, it's won a lot of awards as well, because that fruit was from Essex. Ah, well, that's where the kids are going, aren't they now for their... They now for their fighting for the Pinot Blanc as well.
I think it's quite difficult to get hold of. John, thank you so much for joining me today. It's been a pleasure to talk to you again, and I'm sure we will have you on again at some point when you're further down the line,
and there's lots more to talk about. Good luck with the rest of the journey, and it's been lovely to be with you. Thanks, Rebecca, and I'll let you know when the shard makes release. Fantastic. John Wilkins there from Itasca wines and Pencroft vineyards in Crandall,
a small village on the Surrey -Hampshire border. It really is a lovely spot to visit on a sunny day. Thank you for tuning in to this episode of The English Wine Duries which is kindly sponsored by Wickham Wines.
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