Episode 73: Wine presenter and communicator Tom Surgey

Joining me on the last episode of series 10 of The English Wine Diaries is wine expert and presenter, Tom Surgey. 

Tom was just 14 when his career in hospitality started, peeling carrots and potatoes in a Sussex pub after school. At the tender age of 20, he found himself working at The Ivy in London, where a hero called Sancho taught him the basics of wine and his passion for the drink really grew. 

He took his WSET qualifications and, hooked on wine, left the restaurant side of the industry in 2014 to join Ridgeview, where he spent six years working alongside renowned pioneers of high-quality English wine-making, the Roberts family. 

During his time at Ridgeview, Tom was invited to join the official line-up of Three Wine Men – joining Oz Clarke, Olly Smith and Tim Atkin with his unique style of wine presentation. 

As a freelance wine communicator and consultant, he works with a broad range of premium wine businesses, is a regular on BBC Sussex & Surrey Radio and often shares his expert drinks tips with star guests on ITV’s Love Your Weekend with Alan Titchmarsh. 

Set for release later this summer, Tom’s debut book, How to Drink Wine, promises to be a charismatic guide to teach you everything you need to know to enjoy this tremendous tipple.

During this episode, which is brought to you in partnership with Plumpton College Wine Division, we talk about those early days at The Club at The Ivy, how he joined the Three Wine Men line-up and - having grown up and still living in Sussex – his true thoughts on the Sussex PDO.

Follow Tom @tomsurgey on instagram and pre-order his book, How to Drink Wine, published on August 29, at geni.us/howtodrinkwine.

Find out more about Plumpton College Wine Division's new short courses at plumpton.ac.uk.

With thanks to our series sponsor, Wickhams, The Great British Wine Merchant. Visit wickhamwine.co.uk to see their award-winning range of English wine with free delivery on orders over £40. The English Wine Diaries listeners can also get 10% discount on their first purchase by entering the code TEWD10. Please drink responsibly.

Thanks for listening to The English Wine Diaries. If you enjoyed the podcast then please leave a rating or review, it helps boost our ratings and makes it easier for other people to find us. To find out who will be joining me next on the English Wine Diaries, follow @theenglishwinediaries on Instagram and for more regular English wine news and reviews, sign up to our newsletter at englishwinediaries.com. 

Transcript

This episode of the English Wine Diaries is brought to you in partnership with Plumpton College Wine Division, the UK's Centre of Excellence for Wine Education,
Training and Research. Plumpton has recently launched a programme of continuing professional development short specialised courses tailored for industry professionals and wine enthusiasts alike.
Starting in September 2024, the range of 15 courses include subjects such as English wine and sustainability, sparkling wine production, wine tourism, vineyard establishment and more.
So whether you're aiming for career growth within this exciting sector or just want to brush up on your wine knowledge, head to www .plumpton .ac .org to find out more or follow at Hampton Wine on Instagram.
Hello and welcome to the English Wine Diaries. Thanks for tuning in. For those of you who don't know me, I'm your host, Rebecca Pitcahn, a journalist and founder of the Southern Quarter,
an online magazine all about English wine. This podcast is all about the people behind the industry and their incredible stories, which I can't wait to share with you.
So join me as I sit down with sommeliers, vineyard owners, winemakers and some rather familiar faces too, and discover how a love of wine, particularly that made on British soil,
has helped shape their lives and careers. Welcome to the English Wine Diaries. The English Wine Diaries is kindly sponsored by Wickham's Wine Merchant.
Alongside our world beating sparklers, England also produces some stunning steel wines. Yes, the grape variety, location and winemaking matter, but Wickham's expertly curated selection and 100 % satisfaction guarantee is a great way to explore this burgeoning category.
Some of my favourites our Lyme Bay's 2021 Chardonnay, Biddon's 22 -Game, and Hux Bears' 22 Orange Bear, which is made from Chardonnay,
not oranges. Visit wick and wine .com .uk .org and get 10 % off using the code, T -E -W -D -10. That's T -E -W -D -10.
Always remember to drink responsibly. Joining Joining me on today's episode of the English Wine Diaries is wine expert and presenter Tom Sergi.
Tom was just 14 when his career in hospitality started, peeling carrots and potatoes in a Sussex pub after school. At the tender age of 20, he found himself working at the Ivy in London,
where a hero called Sancho taught him the basics of wine, and his passion for the drink really grew. He took his WSET qualifications and, hooked on wine, left the restaurant side of the industry in 2014 to join Ridgeview,
where he spent six years working alongside renowned pioneers of high -quality English wine, the Roberts family. During his time at Ridgeview, Tom was invited to join the official line -up of the three wine men,
joining Oz Clark, Ollie Smith and Tim Apkin with his unique style of wine presentation. As a freelance wine communicator and consultant, he works with a broad range of premium wine businesses,
is a regular on BBC Sussex and Surrey Radio, and often shares his expert drink tips with star guests on ITV's Love Your Weekend with Alan Titchmarsh, as well as other TV shows.
Set for release later this summer. Tom's debut book, How to Drink Wine, promises to be a charismatic guide to teach you everything you need to know to enjoy this tremendous tipple.
Tom, thanks for joining me. How are you? Becca, what an intro. That's amazing. That's great. Thank you. Yeah, no, I'm really good. Did I get everything right there? I was...
Yeah, I did so. I think so. I did. I did my agency. That's hilarious. I wrote it. No, no. I did. I wrote it. Well, it's, you know, a journalist, what can I say?
That's what I'm supposed to do. You've smashed it. I mean, yeah, there's things in there that I've forgotten. So thank you. That's great. Well, you have had a brilliant career. And obviously, your book's coming out later this year,
which we will get on and talk about soon. But I want to kind of go back to, you know, that first job you sort of had peeling potatoes in the kitchen in Sussex. what sort of drew you to hospitality and working in hospitality in the first place?
I think it's a good question. It's something I talk about quite a lot and I'm really passionate about is I think it's personality and I think it's things that bring me lots of joy and recognising that quite young.
And sort of, you know, I was when I was at school, I was, you know, relatively academic at school and didn't have an awful awful sort of time at school, but I didn't love it. My wife looks back at school kind of going,
oh, my God, it was the best days of our lives. It was amazing. And I think I'm one of those people that kind of goes, it felt a bit restricted. It felt a bit like I was being forced to go and do stuff that I wasn't that bothered about for a long time.
And I kind of towed the line. But the second I jumped off the school bus and walked into a pub, and it was the lamb in Ripe, which just a little beautiful little village just outside Brighton,
the kind of rolling Sussex sort of East Sussex countryside. I jumped off the school bus literally an hour's walk or 45 minutes walk away from my house, so quite early in the bus journey from school,
and just walked in and said, can I do some work, you know, can I possibly work here at the weekends? You know, can I do so, you know, what can I do with you? And I think the inspiration for that was, you know,
my parents used to, You know, we spent quite a bit of my child in pub gardens, sort of thing, not like an outrageous amount. I don't want to sort of, you know, lumber them with that. But it was, you know, pubs were part of my growing up sort of thing and somewhere I felt very comfy.
And they always, they kind of represented, I think, kind of freedom for me in a way of, of kind of just, just, they were full of personalities and people and they were sociable and they were kind of not nine to five.
And I think even when I was at school, I quite liked that. Something in that kind of chimed with me. And so I was lucky. They said, yeah, come and peel some carrots and potatoes. And then I just, I did that like every Friday night and every Saturday and quite a lot on,
you know, regular Sundays. And a friend of mine, George did the same thing, who is my best man at my wedding and is still a very good maid. And, you know, testament to it being a personality thing, George lasted, I think about six months and then got fired.
I think for the first time. And then multiple other times after that, he kept coming back. And as you do, which is brilliant. But he never loved it and he never went into hospitality. And but I just,
yeah, I found, I just found something I loved. I loved chefs. I loved the personalities, the people I liked. Sort of just, just the sort of offbeat, very human kind of nature of it as an industry.
And, yeah, I stuck in it. That was it. You stuck in it. And obviously, you ended up in the Ivy in London. Now, this is the Ivy, the club at the Ivy, isn't it? Which is the main one in London before the brasseries and all of that opened everywhere.
This is the main real deal in London. Yeah, yeah. You must have seen some things and have some great stories from that time.
I do. I did, and I And I don't think I could, I, I, sometimes I think it was probably long enough ago now that I could start sharing some. But I think probably professional, you know,
professionalism probably means I shouldn't. I'm surprised they didn't make you, I'm surprised they didn't make you sign a non -disclosure disagreement or something. I know. I think, I think it was mainly just sort of threatened into it.
It was like a military training camera. And they, they, it was an amazing experience. And it was, it was sort of three and a half, four years in my life. And I loved it. And it made me, it took me from,
you know, I think, I think being naturally very kind of sociable and good at hospitality and welcoming and warm, because that's ultimately what hospitality is about is, is that. And it took me to be very,
very structured and very professional in the way, you know, it really developed my, my career in that respect. And I met some amazing, amazing individuals, you know, while I was there, Fernando, who's the director of it,
is still a really good, you know, friend. And, you know, Rob Pinder, who was running it, and Sancho, amazing, brilliant Portuguese assistant general manager at the time, who ultimately introduced me to wine.
You know, it was at the Ivy where, you know, during dinner services and things, Sancho, say, look, you're going to really like wine. I, like, Sancho, I know nothing about this. It's got nothing to do with me.
I like beer. The bar team are teaching me about spirits. I quite like those and cocktails and stuff. Wine's not for me, Centro. I don't know anything about that. And he sort of just ignored all of that and just kept on giving me tiny samples.
You know, these guys have left, you know, a little bit of this. It's awesome. It's called Vegas, Sicilia. Try that. You know, and over, yeah, over months of that, the sort of wine opened up in front of And I was like,
wow, you know, this is, again, like going to pubs at 14, this recognition of like, hang on, there's a whole world here that I had no idea is an industry that sustains,
you know, millions of families and communities and lives all over the world. And at its absolute core, it's something that is transportive. It's a communications tool in its own right.
It's a way of connecting with places all over the world and it was like it was this sudden sort of like wow you know like i want to spend the rest of my life getting involved in this um so yeah as you're probably hearing i get quite excited about things and then throw myself into them like you know enormously and um and it's been it's been brilliant so i've worked with wine i said the ivy until i was about 23
so 20 yep something like that and then i wrote I wrote a letter to Mike Roberts and Chris Roberts and their daughter Tomorrow, who were running Ridgeview at the time,
the founders of Ridgeview down in Sussex. And by that point, I started helping write the wine list at the Ivy a bit. And I was working at Annabelle's cellars under Barclay Square for their Christmas things.
And I'd done some stuff with shikies and things. So I was beginning to get quite comfy with wine and was doing press trips or trade trips at least, you know, out to places and learning, learning, learning and doing WSTs. And I,
and I sort of, I think I just recognized, you know, the restaurant thing is beginning to get in the way of the wine thing now. I'd like to spend more time doing that. So I wrote in this letter and just said, I've made wineless.
I've got a general idea that I think I could probably be quite an aesthetic salesperson. Like if I took a wine into a restaurant, I know what annoys me when people do that. So I could probably try and avoid doing that,
you know, for other people. And I love your wines. And I'd met their wines, you know, over the years. I grew up around the corner. I grew up in a little town called Lewis, just outside,
ditchling where Ridgeview are based. And I'm just absolutely ridiculously. they wrote back to me and said, yeah, come and come and have a look, come and say hello.
And that started, yeah, six and a half years of what was just an amazing, very positive, symbartic, mutually really beneficial relationship where, you know, I was the first person in really to look after sales and help them.
And they were growing at a really fast rate at that point. It was just exactly the right time. And likewise, they gave me so much support and so much space to learn how to do it. And joyfully not,
it wasn't like going into a big commercial company. It was, it was very much, we're trying to sell some wine, just go and work out how we do that. You know, there was no structure.
And that, again, appeals to me. And that's, that's my whole vibe. I love that. And so that worked really well. So yeah, that's how that. It sounds like, it's a prime example, I think, of what the English wine industry is like a lot through,
you know, a lot of the podcasts that I do and the stories that people tell, you know, there's that giving that person a chance, but not even feeling like they're giving that person a chance. It's just literally like we're just so happy that people are excited to talk about English wine.
And we'll talk a bit more about English wine and your involvement in that. I just wanted to go back a step to when you were at the Ivy. And was there a point, apart from obviously all these different wines that Sancho was showing you.
Was there one specific wine that you can remember tasting or something that really opened the floodgates for you? Yeah, I think, I think definitely, I think, you know, there was a,
there were a couple of really, the lovely thing about members clubs is, because I think they always get a bit of a bad rap and they feel very elitist and exclusive. And I, I think the Ivy wasn't that. I think the Ivy was about creatives and it was very theatrical.
And so we used to have every West used to come in at 10 p .m. at night and party, which they don't do anymore. The West End's really kind of knackered after about 10 .30 p .m., which is so sad.
But, so, yeah, actually, that's the big P .N. It's go and be drinking cocktails in the West End at 11 p .m. They need you to. That would be a good thing. But, yeah, they, I think there were a couple of diners who regularly used to come and I recognised that I was quite into wine and you build up a real rapport and a relationship with people when they're in there that often and they used to come in you know,
you used to have a lot of people coming in for a burger with a mate post theatre and they'd order a bottle of, I've mentioned it before but one that really sticks out is yeah, the Vegas Cecilia Unico which is a Ribeiro del Duero absolute icon producer,
you know, Spanish red wine producer and you know they would sort of say at the end of the thing, they'd sort of say, look, you know, they'd leave a tip and they'd say there's also, there's a glass and a half of Unico in there for you,
you know, tuck into that at the end of the shift. And the moments like that, I thought were really special. And so I would say things like, you know, iconic wines like the Vegas Sicilias of this world and things,
I got a chance to try. And they were definitely, they were wines that I drank a San Juan Shea, which was at least 15 years old, on the night bus home when I was about 22 or something,
you know, and which was left by somebody. And these were wines that would be on the wine list at 300, 400, 400 quid a bottle. And I would never have been in a place to try these things at all.
And so that, there was also an enormous amount of excitement about that of kind of, you know, this like, wow, you know, I'm tasting something that, you know, my parents would have never been able to try. I've got no idea,
you know, how have I got access to this? You know, and I think this says a lot about the world of wine is when people really get into wine, ultimately, it's about sharing and it's about communication, as I say.
And, you know, I think a lot of people got a lot of joy. And I hope that I will go on. I hope I do do that, to be fair, which is this whole thing of sort of, like, I'm really enjoying this. I really want you to try this as well.
Have a You know, and so, yeah, those would be the wine experiences that I really, I really remember. There was a lot of, but I don't know what, Spain's springing up with the Ivy. It's not a Spanish restaurant in any way should perform.
We did a press trip or a trade trip out to Bilbao and Barcelona and things and went through Riyocca and Ribeiro and had an evening in San Sebastian. And that was probably when I was about 22 or something.
And I remember that being a really, again, really kind of, you know, pivotal moment in my life kind of going, this is, this is just outrageous.
You know, like this is the greatest kind of hedonistic joy ever. You know, how can I possibly be doing this as a job? And so, yeah, it was definitely moments like that that I think,
I think stick very clearly in my head. Have you had a chance to go back since? Yeah, I go there all the time. And I've actually, I've just stopped my membership.
But I was, I was a member for a long time. And all of the team who were there when I was there have now finally gone. And, you know, there were always the last few people around. And Fernando stopped a little while ago.
And so I, I sort of slowed down, you know, I was there because I really like spending time with them. But I did, I used to work from there a lot. The last, you know, the last five years, I've done a lot.
You know, the book, quite a bit of the book was written sitting in there. And yeah, it's, so I do, I do go back. Whether I, I don't know whether I go now or not, because it's people,
you know, it's people as much as anything. I'm sure I'll pop in, but it's, yeah, and the Ivy downstairs, the original Ivy is just, it's such a, it's such a beautiful, emotive kind of restaurant space.
It's such a special place. So, Yeah, really cool. So let's move on to English wine. Now, you mentioned that you'd come across Ridgeview wines, and I'm sure other English wines while you were at the Ivy and working in London.
Was it just the locality of Ridgeview being so close by to where you came from that made you choose there? Because there was obviously other vineyards in Sussex that were doing sort of well at the time and elsewhere.
What was it that drew you specifically to Ridgeview, do you think? I think, so what would it have been? My first, hilariously, my first interaction with English wine, there was a chap called Richard Rottie and a couple of other people who used to work at Annabelle's cellars,
really old -school wine cellar that essentially services Annabelle's, the members club on Barclay Square. And I remember saying to them, you know, they were really important, you know, kind of, again, people that I had access to to chat to about wine.
And I remember saying to them, I'm thinking about stopping working at the Ivy and I'm thinking about going and working in English wine. I love it. I think it's really cool. I think it's the birthplace of this amazing new industry.
And I grew up there. It feels crazy to go and do something else. I'd love to go and be part of that. And I think they unanimously all said, don't. It's English wine's rubber.
You don't want to be anywhere near that. Honestly, it's going to be, it's going to be rubbish. It's a flash in the pan. You're going to, on it, it's, it'll be such a waste of your time. Don't do it. And I think it was the first time I sort of went, no,
I, you know, I'm going to, I'm going to not go with what you guys sort of think this time. I'm going to go and try this. And thank goodness I did. But, yeah, the reason I reached out to Richview was, I think I've always,
I've always been, how do you put it, I think there's a commercial reality to, if you want to sustain a career and you want to have space to grow in a role,
I think I recognized that it would have to be a winery with a certain degree of aspiration and scale, you know, to afford to employ some, to go out and sell it,
you know, the margins in English wine, and I can tell you more, but having done 12 years of that now, commercial roles with English wineries in different ways, they, you know, the margins in English wine are not enormous by any stretch.
People have this idea that they're rolling in lots of money. And every time you buy a 35 pound bottle of wine, they're sort of going, yes, they're not. It's minuscule, minuscule margin and an enormous investment.
And so I think one of the reasons I reached out to Richview openly was they're big enough and it feels like they're at a point where they're going to need to start selling some wine.
You know, there's a commercial imperative to get on with it. So I was like, well, that would be good and that will then help me, you know, build a career with these guys. The other reason was I thought the wines were great. And I still do.
I think that I think they're awesome. I actually openly think they're in one of the best places they've been in probably five or six years. You know, bloomsper at the moment is tasting extraordinary. And they've just launched their first still wine.
Yeah, I haven't tried it, actually. It's good. Yeah, I bet it is. And Matt Struggner or the vignaner manager is just exceptional. He's an amazing, amazing vignal manager.
And so, so yeah, I think, you know, it was both, you know, I liked the wines, there was quality of the wines. It was definitely, they were a good fit because they were about, you know, they were clearly getting to a stage where they were going to need to start going out and selling some wine into the trade.
And I think the other, I mean, openly the other thing was locality. It was they were 15 minutes away from where Olivia and I wanted to leave London and go and live, which is Lewis. And so it worked really well.
And so it was enormously fortuitous, yeah. But while I was there, you know, they, it was a real kind of evolving period for the business. The quality of the wines was great,
but they were kind of really, I think we recognised quite early that we had to benchmark our style in some ways. You know, you had to have a really clear, with all these new wineries starting,
you know, and then lots more, you know, competition going through the roof, there was definitely a recognition of, okay, what is our style and what do we do? And I think, I think they've stuck to that ongoing. And it is, it's definitely fruit -driven.
They're wines of purity and they are delicious, you know, accessible English wines. But I don't mean that in a negative way. They're not simple in any shape or form,
but they are fruit -driven, delicious, vineyard, fresh kind of wines. And, you know, even in the long -aged wines, they're not enormously rich and heavy, and they're quite elegant,
they're quite fruit -driven. And it was a really great, very big distinction from what you were getting in champagne. You know, there's very few champagne houses that can make wines in that style.
And so I think what Ridgeview did really well is they, after the first initial 15 years or whatever of the business, which was definitely about, you know, we can try and make some stuff that tastes like champagne,
much like nighting, but much like everyone in that first kind of tier of English wines, the real pioneers. The first best part of two decades was, can we do it like the French. Oh my good.
Oh my goodness. We can. This is great. Let's try and make it as much like as we can. And then I think the latter 15 years or so of that business has been much like night and much like other people, recognising actually the whole point of this is it tastes like where it comes from.
Let's try and celebrate, you know, English fruit. And so it was such an exciting place to be. And I'm so grateful to the Robert's family and to Matt,
actor, all the people I got to work with while I was there. And yeah, like, just I couldn't have asked for better experience or exposure. Yeah, it was good. Can you remember your first taste of English wine?
Was it, was it Ridgeview? No, it wasn't actually. Do you know what it was? It was Herbert Hall. And it was probably at Jay Shikis or the Ivy, one of the two.
But yeah, it would have been Herbert Hall. And again, love the wines. I think they're great. I still drink them. I think they're really, really lovely. And they've always had this great relationship with that, that business,
you know, you know, caprice and things. And so they own the Ivy. And so they, see, I think, I think it would have been Herbert Hall for sure. Ridgeview would have been very early doors as well.
Breakie Bottom, pizza, lovely Peter Hall's wines would have been very early doors as well. Obviously also around the corner from you? I mean, yeah, literally, like, you know, 10 minutes around the corner sort of thing,
although 15 once you've navigated the ridiculously bumpy track to get up there. But yeah, so yeah, I'd say that would be the starting point, yeah. So let's talk about now, moving on from Ridgeview and how you sort of really became a wine communicator,
because obviously through your sales role, a lot of that is about education and educating people, particularly about English wine, which for some people was quite new at the time. How did you kind of move your career on to become this kind of presenter and communicator for wine?
It's always a tricky one because you, it takes a, it's a really annoying, anyone wanting to do it, it's a very frustrating thing to hear.
And the answer is always there was a catalytic moment. There was kind of like a chance moment of, oh, this happened. And then that led to this and this and this. But so I'll tell you all about it.
But the first most important thing is if anyone does want to do stuff like presenting and communications, it does take a moment of kind of being discovered or found or whatever that might be,
you know, whatever you want to phrase it like, because someone needs to go out on the limb and go, I'm going to give you a chance to do this. But in order to get that, it's actually not very hard, I don't think, to get that. All you have to do is put yourself in positions where you're likely to be seen.
So if you want to be presenting, the first thing you need to do is you need to get over the enormous kind of imposter syndrome or weird embarrassment that everyone feels about sort of like,
I've got no place to talk about this. People won't want to listen to me and talk about it. Just get out there and talk about stuff. Yeah, that's you. That's me. Honestly. But we all have it. We all have it. And it's exorbitantly hard at the start because your audience is very small and you feel like,
you feel like, why am I? What a ridiculous day. You know, often your audience is your friends. And there is nothing worse than listen to a friend trying to present with any kind of element of sincerity or trying.
Trying at anything. I don't want to see my friends trying. I want them to sort of flop about in the pub and be ridiculous. So, so the second, initially your audience is always your friends and things.
And that's, that is crucifying and challenging. But put yourself in those positions because, the way it happened with me was I, I met Ollie from Saturday, lovely Olly Smith,
and who's a really good mate. And Olls, now wasn't, I didn't know Olly before. And then I met Olly while I was doing some Ridgeview stuff. And I think I was talking about Ridgeview somewhere. And,
you know, he came from Vineyard visit at one point and so we've met. And he, he approached me and said, you know, I like the way you talk about wine. You know, we're doing this thing through wine men. We need someone to do some masterclasses that,
you know, just think, you know, I don't think we've got any budget, but, you know, would you, would you be interested in helping present a masterclass? And so, again, at the next stage of getting to be a presenter is saying yes to opportunities.
Even if they're like, oh, gosh, that's terrifying. And so it says, yeah, of course. Like, that would be great. And so I hosted some masterclasses at some three wine men's just on the side. There's like a, you know, people, people were going to the events and to see Tim and and Osnolli.
And then they could, you know, book on for five to come and see me talking about whatever the specific things where I was talking about for 40 minutes. And it worked really well. And then after doing a couple of those, I think the plan was we wanted to do more events or they wanted to do more events and they were struggling a bit with all three being in the same room at the same time.
There's only so many moments where all three's diaries, you know, allow them to. Yeah, they're busy men. And so, yeah, that would have been about 2016 or 17 or something. And they sort of said,
they said, look, you know, do you want to be one of three wine men? Because you could sub in, you know, you can be like the training wheels, wine men, right? You know, people turn up expecting us three, and they'll be disappointed to get two of us and you,
um, you know, and then you go through that state, which is great. And, um, that was a few years. And then, um, and then now it's, yeah, it's, it's, it's lovely because I'm, you know, highly active within it and,
and do, do loads them, you know, I think Oz and I probably do the most. And then Ollie does lots and Tim, I mean, Tim is amazing. Tim is perpetually out of the country. He's all over the place.
He's just amazing. All is the same, actually. But we kind of, there's always, yeah, we now mix and match between, there's us, there's the four of us that I've mentioned. There's also the amazing Susie Atkins,
who is brilliant. And Luma Montero gets involved. I love Luma. She's, she's an awesome communicator. And so, like, there's a whole bunch that kind of get involved in that now. Well,
I've only got Tim and Luma to get on the podcast because the others have all been on. Now you've been on. Tim's awesome. Tim, Tim will do it, right? Tim will do it. It's just trying to pin him down,
I think. 100%. Luma is, yeah, Luma's awesome. Luma's, my hot tip for future superstar presenter, Luma.
She's like, I just, yeah, fully backing Luma. She's amazing. So Tom, just for those people who might not be aware of who three wine men are, can you just explain a little bit about the concept?
Definitely. So it's a touring wine show. It's a live event. We, you know, hosted by three of us. And like I say, that could be either of the three originals.
It could be me. It could be lovely Susie Atkins. It could be Luma. And what we do is, you know, people purchase tickets and they walk into a room and there's like a hundred or more amazing wine producers,
all standing behind stands. It's like a big trade show, really, where they've got multiple different wines from their portfolio on the table. And you get a glass and you move around the room at your leisure, visiting producers,
chatting to them, tasting all the wines. And you can do it as socially as you want to. You can do it with a whole bunch of mates and loads of people come with the whole group and they have a lovely kind of absolute well over time. You can chat to producers.
Equally, if you don't want to do it, you just want to come along and you just want to sort of taste and, you know, do it in a slightly more, you know, quiet, studious way. You can totally do that as well. But they're, they're loud, they're fun. It's about the joy of wine and bringing people together.
We tore it all over the country. We're just about to, um, to launch the Christmas one, which is always amazing and is enormous at Lindley Hall in Victoria. So, So to get involved in that if anyone hasn't been and wants to come to them.
And we do a load of online bits as well, kind of like Zoom calls and things that people can book onto and taste things online as well throughout the year. And so it's an amazing event,
leading, you know, the UK's leading kind of touring wine event with, you know, some big name experts, which is lovely. And it's been such a good platform. I mean, it's been such a, it was such a catalytic thing in my life.
It was the beginnings of, you know, really kind of presenting being, um, being the main thing I do. It was probably openly also the cause of an enormous amount of,
and, you know, pain and struggle and toil because what no one talks about is unless you're independently wealthy and, um, and you don't have to, you know,
earn a living, which, which isn't my case at all. And I'm very pleased that it isn't like, I like the fact that I'm very proud and love the fact that you can and, you know,
build really high, sustainable, positive kind of careers in the wine industry. I think there's a complete nonsense thing that's often spread about the wine where one of the first people sort of say is,
well, you can work in wine, but you don't do it for the money. And it's like, yeah, well, Like, it's not, like, you know, it's not, you know, no one's making it enormous, ridiculous, crazy amounts of money. But what people do need to know if you're into wine is you can definitely build an amazing career in this space.
And you can definitely support family. And you can definitely do all the things that you would want to do if you work hard to it. But presenting arriving in my life was both an enormous positive.
And it is the greatest. I'm so privileged to do it and I love it. And I'm, It's my favourite thing. I wouldn't change it for the world. But when you do something like that, you also have this moment of going,
ah, this is going to take up quite a lot of my time. And if I want to do this full time, which ultimately I did and do now, but there's probably eight years of going,
okay, I'm going to do a couple of these events in the evening around a full -time job. And then and then you get to appoint me, can I go, oh my goodness, I'm just working, I'm working 24 -7 now this is too much. I need to try and get a job where I can do four days a week and do a whole day of that.
And you then sort of step your way out of a proper job sort of thing, very delicately. But that process involves a lot of burning the candle at both ends for quite a sustained period of time to do it right.
And I thought that by the time I've got to this stage about I just full -time present. I do a little bit of brand consultancy still. But, you know, I thought it would kind of slow down.
It would be like back to a normal job. It's not. It's 24 -7. It's a complete lifestyle. But it's great. It is really good. Just know what you're getting into it. If people want to do this, it's pretty all -consuming.
That's the key thing there. It's a lifestyle, isn't it? It's one of those jobs that is a lifestyle. And as you've said, you know, it's an enjoyable job. It's part of your lifestyle.
And therefore, money might not be, you know, huge amounts. But it's, it's enough to have a good, a good life and to have a balance and to have a balanced life. I maintain, this isn't a financial podcast tool,
but I maintain you can, yeah, all I want to say is, if you want to do wine as a career, don't listen to the people that say you can't make any money. You can make as much fun as you want to make out of it. It's great.
Do it. Talking about careers in wine and being sort of studious in that sense, we should probably talk about Plumpton because you're an ambassador for Plumpton,
the wine division, which is that if anybody who doesn't know what Plumpton is, it's the College, Agricultural College down in Sussex and they have a wine division which has spur the careers of many,
many people working in the English wine industry. How did you get involved with them? So I, so a bit like hospitality, Plumpton's kind of in my bones because my mum went to Plumpton and studied dairy farming,
bless her, back in the day. And so I've always, I've always known Plumpton. I've always loved it and it's always just been there, you know, awareness. And I, I finished off my WSCTs down in Plumpton and things like that when I moved down here to Ridgeview.
And being involved with Ridgeview, Ridgeview were very supportive for Plumpton and vice versa. You know, Plumpton was putting out, I mean, and still very much is, was putting out incredible winemaking talent and viticultural talent and,
you know, Ridgeview and loads of, you know, producers across the UK benefit from that enormously. So all the producers in the UK have a really close link with Plumpton where,
you know, they're keeping an eye on great students. They want insight from, you know, they're kind of going, we've really need an amazing vignal manager. Who on the, who's doing the course at the moment, who looks really good, what, you know?
And so, so there's a, there is definitely a kind of funnel there. And so while I was at Ridgeview, I went in and did some, you know, bits talking about selling wine and commercial roles in wine and that sort of thing while I was there.
And then back in 2019, I co -founded a charity that does food education for children across Sussex with some friends and called Table Talk.
And that's still going really well. But we started a chat with Jeremy at Plumpton, the principal, where he really liked what we were doing and vice versa. And we built a training kitchen.
We've built this beautiful training kitchen at the college where we now bus children from schools over and they do a day on the farm because they've got this beautiful working dairy farm down there.
And then they come into the kitchen and we get, you know, our amazing chefs to kind of cook with them and they make a three -course lunch and then they all eat together. And that's been an amazing, amazing project to be involved in. And Plumpton have been so supportive of table talk and vice versa,
it works really well. And so in doing that, reconnected with Jeremy and was spending more time with them. And, you know, I think with Sam arriving at Plumpton College, which is such an enormous boon for it,
you know, having Sam Linter, you know, ex, you know, head winemaker and MD of Bollney estate, joining as the head. And the whole team that are there now, there was just this moment of like,
gosh, this is such an exciting time for the college. Like, you know, you have got such an amazing opportunity here. And so they said, look, would you, would you want, you know, could you be an ambassador with us and get out there and shout about it,
you know? And I've been doing that for, I should think, about seven, eight months now. And it's mainly in the form of whenever I'm at events, I talk about Plunton. And it's just a very natural thing.
You know, it is the center of wine education in this country, it is as good as, and it has talked about in the same breath as the world's leading wine places like Geisenheim and UC Davis out in California.
And to have that in the UK, right on our doorstep, you know, less than an hour from London, like, that's extraordinary. And when we talk about English wine and we talk about the last 35 years and the evolution of English wine,
you can't talk about that without talking about Plumpton and its contribution and all of the people who have been through Plumpton's kind of, you know, network and web, you know, and you look at the key buyers and supermarkets today.
You look at, you know, key pivotal kind of, you know, directors of wholesale businesses in the UK. Such a high proportion of them have gone through Plumpton at one point in their career,
whether it's post -college, you know, as a, you know, as a degree course, you know, as a late teenager, you know, or as a career change at any point in their careers,
you know, it's, yeah, the network around Plumpton runs very, very deep throughout the wine industry and not just in the UK. So I'm very proud of that. And they've just released these short courses, which are awesome,
like absolutely brilliant. So single modules where you can go in and you can pick specific themes that you might want to learn about, wine faults, you know, viticulture, winemaking, you know, specific elements that actually you might find,
you know, in any role in the wine trade, you might find yourself going, I really want to know more about that. And you can now do that, and you can pick these kind of individual modules. So, like, they're in quite a dynamic kind of stage of it.
So I think it's cool. I should mention, actually, because it's behind me. I've got a bottle of Rock Lodge, White from Plumpton, in my hand. And it's their 2023. It's 15 quib,
which is just such an outrageously good value, Plumpton, you know, price for an English wine. It's made by the students. It is awesome. Like, it's made with Ortega, there's a bit of Regner,
there's a little bit of Bacchus and there for some fruit. It's this wicked kind of blended white. It's zesty, delicious, awesome. So the wines themselves, the Plumpton College wines that you can buy are also, they're really good and crazily good value.
They're really good value, aren't yeah? And I think, I know living in Sussex myself, I know you can get them in Plumpton wines in sort of the local waitros as well as the local independent places, which is great. But those people, can you buy those online,
do you know? Is it? Can you buy, yeah, yeah, you can buy, yeah. But yeah, you can. So yeah, exactly that. You totally can. And, yeah, if you find yourself in Lewis Waitrose or something as well or going past the college, they're there,
which is good. People like butler's wine cellar in Brighton as well you can buy the wines from and so yeah they a bunch of independent regional uh merchants as well you've got a few other um bottles up behind you there let's talk about some of your sort of favorite english wines um i think they're all are they all still no you've got two of each i thought i bring some props mainly just to jog my own memory um i'm
doing i'm doing a touring uh english wine session at foodies festivals this year across across England. And I've nearly finished that, which is great, but we're doing like 18 dates and 100 people at a time and attend,
and they just go off. They are amazing. And so I've drawn on loads of my favourite English producers to kind of be part of it. And there've been great people like Robark and Kandoverbrook and,
you know, the uncommon, the wicked kind of can stuff we'd put in as well. they've been brilliant, but some of my absolute highlights of wines I've tasted this year. The Plumpton, Rock Lodge is definitely one. Flint,
from up in Norfolk, I don't know if you know, lovely Ben, like, Ben's wines, like, I've loved them for years. I think he makes some of the very best backers in this country. The fumet here,
absolutely stunning, 2023, which is gently barrel -fermented. He makes more, I think he makes slightly more minerally, elegant, complex, kind of multi -layered styles of backers.
And I really respect that. Great price point as well. They're like 20 quid, which is, which is crazily good value. So I think the flint wines at the moment are good, like really, really, and they always happen,
but are really good this year, 23. Um, wonderful artelium. I love them. They're amazing. Mark and Julie. So I actually do some consultants who work with these guys at the moment on their kind of trade,
how they go out and sell wine into restaurants. So I still have a few consultancy clients. And I've worked with quite a few English wineries, helping them do a bit of that stuff over the years. And Artelium, I love. This is their curator's cuvay,
2018, double gold at Decanter for Artelium this year. And they did very well at IWC as well. And so I think they're awesome, like half an art business, half a wine business. an example of a very kind of like the,
I think they're like the third generation of English wineries in the modern sense where they're beginning to be hyper -creative, really kind of interesting brands and very evocative kind of like,
you know, you're getting what you should with wine, you're getting personality and people kind of going, this is what I want to do, come and have a go at this, come and see what you think. And I'll tell him's an amazing, amazing example of that, very good restaurant and bits on site as well.
And then finally, with this lovely little wax seal and the smiley face on top of it, is Heretics Roseae. This is the Blowhorn Roseae 2023 from a friend of mine,
Gareth. It's absolutely stunning. Essex -grown Pinot Noir, fermented and oat barrels, old Burgundian oat barrels, lees stirred,
so it gets all rich and kind of round and textural. And it's a rosé. It's very pale as a rosé. But it's not rosé. It's not like commonal garden swimming pool, centripe in your swimming trunks kind of rosé.
It is kind of, it's got a little bit more grip. It's got more concentration. It's got more intensity. It's an amazing, amazing wine. So that's literally just been released. And there's like 1 ,500 bottles or something,
tiny amount of it. So I highly recommend it. and it will age very well. So there you go. There's four English wines that I think are drinking beautifully right now. Yeah, the last one I've seen a lot about that.
And I've not tried it yet, but seen a lot about it on Instagram and sort of blowing up and it's, I've heard very good things. What for you, is there anything that you're sort of keeping your eye on from an English wine point of view and thinking, like sort of interested to see sort of where vineyards might take things that may be doing things a bit differently?
Definitely. I think the industry is moving really quick. And the, I think we, so I think the foundational thing is that the sparkling wines,
sparkling wines in England are the best sparkling wines of the world, full stop. And I think it's almost, you know, I don't even think that's that dogmatic or ridiculous a quote anymore. I think it is, I think it's kind of absolute.
I think, you know, the sparkling, the Sparkling we make in this country is extraordinary. We're making a lot of it now. There's a lot of it out there. Commercially, it is a highly competitive and quite challenging thing to go out there and sell English wine in a way that is sensible sort of thing.
But that's also, that's also because we have got a restaurant industry that has been very receptive to it. You know, most places have now got English fizz by the glass, you know,
that's, that's awesome. We've hit a really good point with English fizz. So I think that will continue. And that's, that's, that's absolute. But the bit I'm really excited about is the still ones, for sure. And just the distance they've come in,
even five years, you know, is, is, it's huge, you know, and a lot of it is down to, you know, warming. You know, we're definitely heating up. And outside of the microscopic view of, is it easier to ripen grapes in England.
Obviously, that's a complete disaster. But just looking at it with that microscopic view for a second, you know, it is, there is an enormous opportunity in terms of,
you know, we are making very, very good still wine fruit here now. And the development of the Crouch Valley in Essex, places like Norfolk, places like Suffolk, that are warmer, that are getting quite a lot of heat.
You know, we're seeing some really cool stuff there. I think people understanding varieties better. I think the opportunity for Pino -Gri in this country is outrageous. You know, and I've had some great Pina -Gree fizz as well.
Like, youthful traditional method, fresh out the, you know, fresh out the bottle, 12 months on Lee's sort of stuff, which I think is a star that, you know, that's unique. No one else is doing that.
England could totally do that. and the people that are, I think, are doing really well with it. But I think the stills from Pina Gree, if they're not mucked around with it, it's a bit like Bacchus. And I think, I think my favourite wines that are still in England are not twiddled about with,
there's still a lot of twiddling about with wines in England, which is a polite way of saying, you know, adding lots of sugar at the end of it and, you know, making sort of wines that hopefully, I don't know,
school children will get into or something. I can't quite work out why people do it. It's horrific. But I think the people that are being very conscientious about their winemaking and using the aromatic great varieties,
gently is really cool. I also think people like, you know, you take Westwell, who I think are amazing, you know, from down kind to Sussex border, You know, they're really good mates and, you know, what they do with Ortega and things like that,
you know, older, great varieties that 10 years ago, everyone was going, no, these are rubbish. What's this all about? These are hybrids. That was part of the problem in the 80s. This is rubbish. Actually, what they do with Otega is amazing.
You know, the Ortega that backs up that rock lodge there is amazing, fleshy, you know, big kind of yellow -fruited kind of situation. And I think there's been a lot of learning.
And I think there's some people making very well -considered, not twiddled about with, naturally, you know, kind of authentically of their place wines. Artelima are doing it,
Westwood are doing it, Flint are doing it, heretics are doing it, plumpton are doing, you know, there's a whole range. And people I'm not mentioning, there's no negativity to do whatsoever, you know. You know,
they're doing it on a commercial scale as well, you know, Chapel down. I went to Chapel the other day and had an amazing tasting. They've obviously literally this week just cleaned up at the WineGB. Oh my goodness.
And deservedly so. They're great. They're doing very well. I was sitting next to Westwell actually at the awards. And yeah, and their Pino -Mernio, sparkling one, I think most innovative, you know, and it is really exciting.
So I want to ask you then, what's your view of the Sussex PDO? So my view is, I think it's just, I was going to be more strong. I think it's rubbish and I think it's complete nonsense and I think it's a pretty pointless endeavour.
It's quite a strong statement, isn't it? But I, I can see why, I can very much see why it's been done. But, but,
and I think, I think long term, I think it might lead to some really good stuff. So I think we're learning what, I think we're learning what our wines in this country needs to be recognized for their true greatness sort of thing.
And so I can understand certain producers and things going, we need Sussex to be the benchmark. What I don't like about it is I think it could have been done, and I don't know how it could have been done,
probably it may have been too big a challenge, but I probably would have liked to have seen it have been done in concert with other counties. I don't really think we, I don't think as an industry that we are big enough or bullish enough or well -established enough to start saying,
okay, Sussex is pulling away from Kent and, you know, and Hampshire is pulling away from there, you know, the distinction between the wines of these counties isn't big enough, you know,
and obvious enough to start doing that. And actually, I think as a category, when you look into international markets and things, English wine is the category. You know, arguably British wine,
the name is, you know, British is a stronger internationally recognised word than English, for example, and represents more, obviously. And so even just calling it English wine has got it,
you know, we've got to work that bit out a little bit, let alone starting to say Sussex and insinuating that Sussex is better than Kent or vice versa or whatever. So I kind of would have quite liked it to have been done in concert as a,
okay, we're going to do Kent, we're going to do Hampshire, we're going to do Dorset, we're going to do Devon, we're going to do Sussex and, you know, Norfolk. And then I kind of would have been a bit more on board with it. The other big issue I have with it is it's not a geologically based,
you know, there isn't a massive defining character that the whole of Sussex has, you know. And so, so the diversity of wines within that, you know, there's a bunch different soil types,
there's loads of different aspect. There's a, you know, I don't think ultimately it really helps the consumer because I, you know, which has got to be the bottom line,
because just because it comes from Sussex, tells you almost nothing about what that wine's going to taste like. And then the final piece is I found it a bit restrictive in terms of great varieties and things.
We are 35 years into learning what works in the UK. You know, it's like being in Burgundy in 90 AD. You know, like, you know,
we don't need, my personal view is we don't need to be telling people what they can and can't plant in different plots. You know, if we'd have said 10 years ago,
you can't plant peanut gree because there's not a lot of it in champagne, you know, some of the best wines we're making in this country wouldn't exist now, you know, and so I think one of the great things about England is the fact that you can plant things and you can try it.
Riesling, Riesling 12 years ago, some people planted reasoning. And the hilarity that ensued across every English producer going to going, fools, ridiculous, this is crazy.
I've tried some reasoning from some bits of the UK now where you're kind of going, do you know what, that's cool. That's really cool, particularly as a blend, as part of a blend. And so for all those reasons,
I think it's pointless. But if it gets us, if it gets us to a stage where there's that big PDO and then we start defining smaller plots within it,
then it begins to start looking quite cool. It's like, you know, we could probably do the crowd. We probably shouldn't do a PDO for Essex. We probably should do a PDO for the Crouch Valley. You know, like,
you know, areas we absolutely know is the thing. Ditchling, the part of land north of the South Downs that gently slopes down to looking back towards the downs. There's barely any chalk in it.
There's shed loads of kind of clay and clagginess going on in there. But the fruit's amazing. So it's like, right, let's define that area. And so, and if the PDO in Sussex is part of that journey,
then it will ultimately have been a good thing. But I just, I don't think consumers know or care or it makes any difference, really. Well, this is the thing. And I wanted to come back to consumers because you mentioned something there,
the talks that you're doing at the Foodie Festival and, you know, the group's, group of, when you do the English tasting, the groups really, really go for it. And I just sort of wondered, what's your, what is the perception of consumers on English wine,
like at the moment? How is that changing or how has that changed since you sort of started presenting? I think they, I think, so the perception is, I mean, 12 years ago when I started, the conversation genuinely in the UK was,
oh my goodness, I didn't know we make English wine. And that was so fun. That's so few people get to work with the wine industry where they're doing that with consumers, where someone goes,
in England, England, really? Like, really? And that, I mean, what a joy. That was so much. That was so fun. And so really blowing people's preconceptions apart. And that was awesome.
that isn't the case now. People know. Generally people are aware England makes wines. The general perception openly is that they're expensive and they are.
It's a really expensive place to buy wine. These are not in the main, they're not at a price point where people drink them every day. But I think the reasoning,
I think people understand why they're quite premium, and especially when you start telling them about how to make the length of time it takes to make here, how low the yields are. We get such little fruit from a vine and the cost of the land and the amount of time you have to wait with traditional meth of wines before you can release them and things.
I think people start to really understand that. And also the fact, we're dealing with first and second, pretty much exclusively generational businesses. The people you're buying this wine from are the same people that had the ridiculous idea that they were going to buy some land and plant some vines and do the 10 years worth of graph before you've got anything to sell.
And so, you know, by the time we get to six or seventh generation producers in this country, you know, or companies that make handbags have started buying it, we might end up, you know, we might end up with cheaper English wine,
right, because the costs reduce. But we're not there yet. And I think people get that. So I'd say the perception is that people know we make wine here. People think it's very premium and expensive. I think most people feel it justifies that,
which is really good. I think people do get excited about counties. You know, in Winchester this weekend, doing the show. And people love the Hampshire wines. They were really excited about Hampshire.
Like, yes, from the corner, come on. But there wasn't any dogmatic kind of like, and we think this is better than Sussex. You know, they we're equally excited about Sussex. But I think there is something really nice about people being able to support local.
They particularly love that, you know, Gareth is a, you know, boy from the, you know, new forest sort of thing. And they were like, this is great, we want to support that. That's awesome. So I think, I think that's the perception.
I think the quality is completely understood. I think people really get it. And I think the balancing thing of the conversation 12 years ago being, oh my God,
I didn't know you make English wine. This is so exciting. There was also a fraternity of people that did know that English wine existed, but had had experiences of English wine in the 60s, 70s, 80s,
90s that was not great. It was kind of, you know, pretty ropy hybrids, tasting notes like foxy, which isn't something that anyone, as far as I'm concerned, is seeking out in wines.
And so I think there was also a bit of kind of development of awareness for people that actually the English wines from before have been left in the past kind of,
by and large. So I think that's, yeah, I think that's the general perception. I think I think the whole drink, less, drink, better thing is good for English wine, and I think it's good for all of us,
and I think is a genuinely very um because because actually as soon as you start doing that if you if rather than buying you know having half a bottle of wine a night or something if that's what people are doing um then you know and you just end up having a bottle of wine on a saturday night between you or something um actually then spending 25 quid in a bottle rather than eight quid on four bottles suddenly
begins to get quite good value and i think places like english wine are going to benefit from that that trend because i'm just certain that's certain that's here to stay. There's definitely not going to be this sudden reformation of let's all go back to the 90s and,
you know, do 14 shots of Yeagermeister and sort of fall over. And so I think, so I think that, I think English wine is playing in the right space,
and not that they're doing it intentionally. They're just naturally are bringing me and wise. So, so yeah, I think that's, I think that's the answer. Yeah, and I think you've got, you know, the development of preservation systems, While they're quite expensive at the moment,
I think, you know, technology will come along and that will become more accessible as well. You mentioned there, obviously, drink less, drink better. And there is a section in your book about hangovers, which I absolutely love the fact that you've got a section about hangovers in your book.
Because your book, How to Drink Wine, is essentially, it is a really down -to -earth guide for somebody who enjoys wine, wants to know more and is maybe a bit scared about asking questions that they might think seem a bit silly.
Tell us about how that came about. Why did you decide to write this book? Oh, what a teeing me out. Come on, thank you. So I've wanted to write it for like five years or something.
My agent has been, I mean, I've got an amazing agent and they've been very supportive. And they're a very good literary agent. And they have, for ages, we've gone for meetings with publishers and come away kind of saying,
well, we could write that book. That could be a thing. And I've, I've been taking, I've been peddling this book for ages, at least the idea of it, which is exactly as you've said there, Rebecca, it's, it's, it's a catch -all. I wanted to write a book,
which is, it's, this is what winds about, and this is the answer to those absolutely kind of pivotal key questions that, for some reason, everybody thinks that they should know the answer to, but, but obviously don't.
And, you know, and so it's kind of, it's like a 101. It's everything you need to know, but it's, it's modern, it's accessible, it's for the drinker today. So I think it's quite relevant. And every time we went from meeting,
the publishing house would go, yeah, cool, no, we'd be up for doing that, but can we do it through this? And it would be a slightly contrived sort of, that sort of say, you've got to do that,
but it's got to be an A to said, or it's got to be through, like, a, I don't know. Some slightly contrived dynamic that we want you to write it from this perspective. And I always came away going,
I'm just, I'm so grateful that we potentially could do that, but I just won't do it. I'm rubbish. I'm very, if I'm excited by something I'm committed to,
I would do it if the cows come home and, you know, Livy will have to sort of beat me around the head with a Brian Panta get me to kind of go, like, oh, God, I'm so sorry, yeah, the children, the children, you, great, life, you know, and so I'm very annoying,
but I, so if I'm into it, I'll do it, but if I'm not, I, I, I just thought, it'll be such an uphill struggle writing something that I'm trying to fit into a box that I don't want to fit into,
you know, and again, it goes back to school, it goes back to hospitality, why I do what I do, and, so always said, you know, always always sort of stopped those conversations early doors. And then George De Ryan turned up,
who is just the most lovely bloke. He's my age. He turned up at Orion as an editor. And we, I don't know, I think he saw, I'd written a few chapters by this point and the general overview of it.
And he came back and said, this is exactly what I'm thinking about. I think we need a modern 101. And we had a chat. We went to Noble Rot and had a quick lunch or whatever, and we just completely saw eye to eye.
It was just like, it was this sort of moment of like, yes, I'm so, God, I'm so pleased. I waited. This is great. And so it's testament to wait until the time is right. And so I wrote it.
I flinged it to George occasionally. And he was an enormously supportive. He's just been such a great partner to do a book with. And Ryan themselves has been fabulous. And yeah, it's,
it's there. And that's how it all came about. It was a joy to write. I loved it. Again, testament to, I think a book, if you're trying to bend it into something that someone else wants you to do it for,
I imagine it's quite stressful. This wasn't at all. I just had such a lovely time doing it. And if I never get the opportunity to do another one, I'll be very proud of it and pleased with it.
And we've sent it out to various people, and it seems to be going down all right, which is good. It comes out on the 29th of August. It's called How to Drink Wine. And yeah,
so please do get involved. It's not available for free order now. We're going to do some, I'm going to do a tour of wine dinners, I think, around the country to sort of support it as well.
So we're not going to do a launch party. Counterintuitively, I, you know, I actually hate being the centre of attention. I hate the idea of saying, come and celebrate me. But I'm very happy to stand up in rooms of,
you know, a thousand people and talk about stuff. But, and so we, so we're not going to do a launch event per se, but we're going to do a load of dinners where we work with great chefs and we put on a really fun night.
And people can come and have a nice time and take away a copy of the book, you know, as part of that. And so keep an eye out. There's going to be loads of things coming out. Well, that sounds brilliant, and you can definitely tell in the book that you enjoyed writing it.
It really comes through. And congratulations for sticking to your guns, because I think that's definitely a position I've been in as a writer myself. I've never written a book, but as a writer myself, writing things that you think, oh. So,
yeah, congratulations on that. Thank you. Quick fire round now. Oh, come on. I say quick, but often the answers aren't that quick. I trust. Where's your favourite place to drink wine?
Do you have a sort of favourite bar, restaurant? I've got loads. I'm a bit of a... It sounds like such a pompous thing. I'm a bit... In terms of London, I love... I'm a West End boy through and through.
East London's too trendy and they're also cool and, you know, sort of beautiful. And I can't get on board with this. I don't know anything about that. So I'm quite into the West End. And so I love,
I go to Joe Allen's a lot. I go to the Ivy quite a lot, as I've said. I go into Soho. I love kind of, you know, beautiful bars for Soho and, yeah, Andrew Evans, all that stuff. The Noble Rotten Soho is very good,
obviously, and all that sort of stuff. And so I, my favourite place to drink wine is probably at home, which is a bit of a lame answer. But I love a glass of wine having dinner with my family and I love a glass of wine while I'm cooking and I love a glass of wine if I'm in the garden,
barbecue or just, you know, that's the thing. The other favourite place is out in the vineyard. So I like wine everywhere. And I don't like wine. I don't do,
I try not to do wine in ridiculous, the enormous volume. It goes back to that thing we talked about a moment ago. But I just like a constant little bit of wine everywhere, really. It's just so lovely.
And so, you know, I've just got back from Dow and Barada in Portugal, some of the most beautiful vineyard places in the world in Dow particularly. And like just drinking wines from the vineyards they come from.
That will never, never get old. That's one of those things that for the, you know, I hope I can do that for the rest of my life. You know, So, yeah, in the vineyard or at home, or like a little West Endy theatrical restaurant,
I would say, where the fun is more important than the food. And all the time. Oh, yeah, and all the delight. If you could share a bottle of wine with one person dead or alive,
who would that be and why? I think I'd prefer it if he was alive. And rather than having it while he's dead. But, yeah, I get to do that,
actually. I get to do that in the sense that I get to spend quite a lot of time with lovely Oz Clark. And, you know, Oz is an enigma and is a icon doesn't even touch it.
You know, Oz and Jilly on food and drink changed the way people thought about wine in a way that no one will ever be able to no one will have that opportunity again a bit like i was lucky to be one of the people in a room able to say to people oh no england does actually make wine and people went what i've never heard of this you know os existed at a time with jilly where you know they they made wine
accessible for the first time ever in the world you know in the you know and um so so to be able to now work very close with oz and to go away with oz and to spend time drinking with Oz and we often drink quite a lot of beer but we do drink quite a lot of wine together and that is such that is such a privilege and I'm very aware of that as every moment I get to spend with Oz I'm very,
very aware of you know just being in the presence of someone who he is such he's such a fond of knowledge he is so bright but more than that he is he's such a human,
he's such a connected with human beings. He likes people and he's such a great communicator around, around flavour and enjoyment and pleasure and joy and humanity.
He's just, he's just such an interesting person. So actually, that's such a weird, stupid answer probably, but I get to do that and I get to do it while he's alive, very much alive, with Oz Clark,
which is good. I've had the pleasure of interviewing Oz a number of times. I've never shared a glass of wine with him, unfortunately, but he's just such a good storyteller, isn't he? I think, yeah. Yeah. Come to three wine men,
hang around to the end of it. Everyone's having a glass with Oz. He's trying to get, he's trying to get Oz out. He's always the last out. Always the last out. That's the way to do it. What wine would you say has surprised you the most,
or it could be perhaps a region? I think, I think rich, I think richer, full of bodied English wines have surprised me. That is a big surprise, is I thought English still wine would be very lean,
very racy, and would struggle to not be in that camp. Stuff like heretics here, English wines with texture and weight, where acidity is present because it's cold,
but isn't the dominant factor. You know, there's wider, fuller fruit and richness. You know, some of the Lyme Bay wines I've had this year which have been in that camp as well, like,
so good. And so that's a genuine surprise. And I'm loving that. The last few years of going, actually, English wines, that's got total balance. That's no longer this lean,
racy, have it with seafood only sort of situation. This is, that's a great wine on its own. That's amazing. So I'd say that is a big surprise, keeping it very. Have you tried Raxall,
any of Raxall's wines? No, I'm aware of them. I actually haven't. I will have tasted some at the WynGB shows over the years, but they're not, I haven't got them on my awareness. Raxel, get in touch.
I need to try some time. Well, they're Oaked Bacchus just one, best backers at the wine at WynGB. And yeah, they've done a great job with that because they're quite sort of, they're not new. It's a very old vineyard,
but they're new owners and they're doing some exciting stuff down there. So definitely, yeah, check that out. That's Very cool. Favorite food and wine combo? There's two,
and they're the opposite ends of the spectrum, aren't they, I guess, which is, I mean, lovely seafood and shellfish and zingy white. You know, so like, you know, English pinaigree, English sparkling wine,
going out of England, cooler climate, you know, chardonnay with a lovely bit of gentle French oak to it, whether that's from South Africa, whether it's from Burgundy itself, whatever, with seafood is,
that's about the most glorious thing in the world, as far as I'm concerned. The other end of the spectrum, I try not to eat loads of it because we're all trying to be good, aren't we? But like really good beef,
like really good beef and a sort of 10 -year -old, not crazy mature, but like a 10 -year -old kind of Cabinet blend or something red is very trite and very stereotypical,
I suppose. And, you know, but I, they're classics for a reason. They are such joyful experiences. Good choice. And my final question, if there was one wine,
you couldn't live without for the rest of your life. What would it be and why? It would definitely be, it would be English sparkling, which is good because it's quite on message,
isn't it? well done thank you for that but it would be it would be i'd be very i'd be very very sad if i if english sparking wasn't something that it was in my life and available to me um it wouldn't be any one particular one and i i don't i'm not a big this is in the book too um i think um i i think a lot of the inaccessibility of wine is that there is a historical weight put on it being like a
collector's thing. And it's about collecting memories and it's about collecting experiences and it's about collecting wines themselves and swirling all that away and attaining knowledge. And I think that's complete nonsense.
And it sounds very silly, but I sort of try and avoid retaining anything like, I'm not a collector at all of wine. I'm an enjoy of it. I want to get stuck into it and taste it with people and share it.
And I think the more we do that the better it is. And so I wouldn't, um, that whole thing of like, you know, yeah, which wine would you like for the rest of life or to remember? Actually,
the point of wine is exploration for me. It's not, it's, you know, the idea of only drinking English sparkling for the rest of my life is equally bad to the idea of not being able to have some English sparkling at some point. Yeah,
I can't retain any memory of anything really. I'm like a sort of complete sieve. And it's mainly because I'm just excited, you know, personality always excited about the next thing. I'm not bothering to record anything. I'm just going forward and just going let's do that.
That'll be amazing. Come on. And I think the more we can do that with wine, actually the better. I think more people will get into it. It's great. I think that's what is so lovely about your style of wine.
Education, if you want to talk at communication. Tom, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It's been an absolute pleasure to speak to you. Good luck with the book. I hope it does. I know it's going to do really well. And good luck with all your other endeavours too.
And I'm sure I'll see you on a tour at some point soon or an English vineyard in Sussex, maybe sometime soon. Rebecca, you're amazing. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you everybody for listening. Tom,
Sergei, there. What a great way to end season 10 of the English Wine Diaries. Thank you for tuning tuning into the series, which is kindly sponsored by Wickham Wines. If you've enjoyed this episode or others,
I'd so love it if you'd like, subscribe and leave a rating as it helps other people find us. You can catch up with more English wine news over on my Instagram at The English Wine Diaries.
I'll be back in the autumn with more stories from the world of English wine and beyond. Enjoy your summer, if we get one. And Till then, cheers.