Ep.120 Empathy, Boundaries, and Mental Health in Parenting Adult Children with Dr. Gail Saltz

I received a request from a listener to cover the topic of challenging relationships with adult children, and I was floored to get many responses from other listeners who were also having similar issues with grown kids. On this week's episode, I sit down with the esteemed Dr. Gail Saltz, a clinical associate professor of psychiatry and psychoanalyst, columnist, bestselling author, and television commentator. 

You know the old saying, bigger kids, bigger problems. Ever wondered how to manage adult children who seem to repeat regrettable choices? We cover that and much more, offering practical advice on developing adult-adult relationships and balancing empathy with self-care. 

Dr. Saltz brings her vast expertise in family dynamics to the forefront, addressing the emotional toll of parenting adult children while offering actionable steps to handle issues like substance abuse and mental illness. We dig into the necessity of setting boundaries, fostering resilience, and the complexity of maintaining authentic relationships while protecting the privacy of our children and family dynamics.

Lastly, Dr. Saltz tackles the sensitive subject of suicidal ideation, emphasizing the power of open communication and the hope offered by treatment options. We discuss how to encourage grown children to become independent, the psychological hurdles they face, and the impact on long-term relationships when resentment is present. 

This episode is packed with compassion, expert insights, and real-world strategies to help you navigate the intricate landscape of midlife challenges, relationships, and mental health. 

Don't forget to leave your reviews on Spotify or Apple to help others find "Asking for a Friend"!

You can find Dr. Gail Saltz at:
https://drgailsaltz.com/
Check out her website above to find the many books she has written
https://www.instagram.com/drgailsaltz/
https://www.facebook.com/GailSaltz
Podcasts:
Personology
How Can I Help
The Power of Different

_________________________________________
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*Transcripts are done with AI and may not be perfectly accurate.

**This podcast is for general informational purposes only and does not constitute the practice of medicine, nursing, or other professional healthcare services, including the giving of medical advice. The content of this podcast is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Users should not disregard or delay in obtaining medical advice for any medical condition they may have and should seek the assistance of their healthcare professionals for any such conditions.

Chapters

• 0:00 Prioritizing Health and Relationships in Midlife
• 5:20 Navigating Parent-Child Relationships in Adulthood
• 14:47 Navigating Parental Challenges in Adulthood
• 21:26 Navigating Parent-Child Resentment in Adulthood
• 34:31 Setting Boundaries With Adult Children
• 48:30 Embracing Strengths in Mental Health

Transcript

Michele Folan: 0:00

Bathing suit shopping was far less painful. This year I hit 200 pounds and I haven't seen this weight in a really long time. I'm not craving sugar like I used to, and the energy I have is off the charts. Yes, these are just a few comments from my clients, but they all have one thing in common Each of them decided it was time to stop making excuses and to prioritize their health and well-being. We are in the driver's seat when it comes to fitness and nutrition. Let me show you what worked for my many clients and me. This is not a diet. These are sustainable strategies you can take with you for a healthier, fitter future.

Michele Folan: 0:44

Join me for my next six-week midlife reset. Go to the show notes of the episode or reach out on Facebook or Instagram. I'll be waiting for you. Health, wellness, fitness and everything in between. We're removing the taboo from what really matters in midlife. I'm your host, michelle Follin, and this is Asking for a Friend.

Michele Folan: 1:15

You know the old saying bigger children, bigger problems. Not sure anyone prepared us for the sometimes arduous task of parenting adult children and despite our best parenting efforts, there may be situations where the adult child can be a physical and emotional drain with no solution in sight. The topic was requested by a listener and when I put it out there that I was interviewing an expert in this area, I received plenty of messages saying there was great interest in this subject. Dr Gail Saltz is a clinical associate professor of psychiatry with the New York Presbyterian Hospital and psychoanalyst at the New York Psychoanalytic Institute, best known for her work as a relationship, family, emotional well-being and mental health wellness.

Michele Folan: 2:07

Contributor in the media, where she frequently shares her expertise and commentary on the mental health aspects of current issues and news. She is a best-selling author of numerous books, including her most recent, the Power of Different, the Link Between Disorder and Genius. Dr Saltz is the host of 92Y Regular live psychobiography series and serves as a medical expert for the Physicians for Human Rights. She is also the host of the Personology and the How Can I Help podcast from iHeartRadio. Welcome to Asking for a Friend, Dr. Gail Saltz.

Dr. Gail Saltz: 2:48

Thank you Thanks for having me today.

Michele Folan: 2:51

You came up immediately on a Google search. So good for you on your SEO, because it was not hard at all to find you when I was looking for an expert in this area. I gave you a brief introduction, but I would love for you to tell the audience maybe a little bit more about you, any personal details you'd like to share?

Dr. Gail Saltz: 3:15

Yes, I've been doing, I guess, what I would call public education in the area of psychiatry and psychology for many decades. Psychiatry and psychology for many decades, dealing with young children, medium children, older children is a common sort of the bread and butter of a lot of what people come into offices for. So this topic is just a very typical therapeutic question issue dynamic to work out. I have been, you know, practicing for over, you know, 30 years, as well as doing the public education, writing books, and I love what I do. I feel very incredibly fortunate that I am in a field that is both super interesting, helps people and, more recently, which was really my mission starting 30 years ago, to decrease stigma around mental health issues so that we can make progress in encouraging people to come to treatment to talk about these issues, to get funding for research to understand these issues better. I feel pleased that we've kind of crossed a juncture and I think everybody is a little more able to discuss these things.

Michele Folan: 4:32

Yeah, I love that you said that about really trying to encourage people to get help, to go in for therapy. I know there is a stigma around mental health issues. I see it in people that I know and I always try to tell my audience look, there's no stigma at all in going for help. I think that's very brave.

Dr. Gail Saltz: 5:00

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Michele Folan: 5:20

Were you always destined for this career? When did you decide that this was the path that you were going to take?

Dr. Gail Saltz: 5:28

Well, the truth is I knew that I wanted to be a physician, and I originally did a residency in internal medicine because that is what I thought I was going to do. But when I was in my residency there was a psychiatrist who would come around once a week with us on rounds and talk to us about the issues that were going on with certain patients, and that was much more interesting to me than what I was doing. There was a lot of mystery at the time. I suppose that uncovering those mysteries was fascinating to me, and the brain honestly seemed like the most important organ still does to me and so I really and you know mental health. Without mental health, what health do you have? So I just really became more fascinated by the field of psychiatry and decided to make that change at that point and go on and do residency there.

Michele Folan: 6:27

I had always wondered if, even as a young child, people would gravitate to you and lean on you for things, so I wasn't sure if it was something.

Dr. Gail Saltz: 6:37

Even that happened, even as a child I think in my family of origin there's a lot of anxiety, and so I'm cognizant of that, I've always been cognizant of that, but cognizant of the double edge to that, which is, on the one hand, you can suffer with a very driven, in many regards, high achieving, you know, making the most of life sort of group, and I think that that is not unusual if you were able to particularly treat your anxiety and I was very I think that remains interesting to me so interesting that my last book was about this topic that, from a neurocircuitry standpoint, we may have the biological predisposition to develop a mental illness or learning disability, which can cause great suffering and deserves treatment, but comes with in your neurocircuitry the propensity and potential for great strengths individual strengths, depending on what the issue is and that has long been fascinating to me as well, and in my family of origin at least, that, you know, my brother, my younger brother, is, you know, struggled, like I have, with anxiety, but he, you know, won the Nobel Prize in 2011 as an astrophysicist for his discovery of the accelerating universe and dark energy, and so I think this, you know, this incredible package, I guess I'll say applies to many people.

Dr. Gail Saltz: 8:23

Package, I guess I'll say applies to many people and sometimes they don't know it and children can really suffer with self-esteem when they have a mental health issue or a learning disability going on. But if more parents and educators understood the potential for strength, they could be helping their child play to that and maintain self-esteem even as they're getting them help to reduce their suffering.

Michele Folan: 8:48

I think this is a great jumping off point, but I'm hearing everything that you're saying and, first of all, you have a bunch of what? Underachievers in your family. I was like, oh my gosh, you have a bunch of smarties in your family, so it's very impressive. We decided before we started recording that this topic can cover a wide gamut of situations, so I'm just going to try to hit the biggies and some of these were input from my listeners, which I love when they do that. But when you have a child that continually makes regrettable choices, at what point do you wash your hands of their mistakes? So once a child is like, say, I'm going to say, 40 years old, are we still supposed to be coaching them through their messes?

Dr. Gail Saltz: 9:45

So I think washing your hands is, you know, is not the term that I would use. You know, at a certain point, right, your child becomes an adult and hopefully, when they are an adult, you develop a more adult-adult relationship. And it doesn't mean that you're not still parent-child, which means that as an adult-adult relationship, and it doesn't mean that you're not still parent-child, which means that as an adult-adult, you are undoubtedly more invested. You love them, right, you want the best for them and you're more invested in this relationship than many of your other adult-adult relationship. But it also means that you're not the ultimate decider and you can't be responsible for the ultimate decisions, which is very often painful for parents, right, that when they're seeing something go on and it's making them anxious and they can't control it. That is very difficult. But in having in thinking with your thinking cap on, this is an adult, adult and I can't ultimately control. I can offer advice when it is allowed let's say, you know when it when it will be acceptable or I can even offer advice and maybe they didn't want to hear it and they dismiss it, and then I'm not offering more advice and yet I can still care, I can still be supportive when things are not going well, which is a very big difference from ownership and responsibility. So sometimes a parent will become so voracious because they feel it is their responsibility and if the child does something that's a mistake, they have to feel bad about it.

Dr. Gail Saltz: 11:25

So here we get into the issue of over-identification with adult children. Right, it's great to be empathic, but one can be too empathic, so empathic that you can't kind of go on with your life if your child's life is not going on in the way that you would want for yourself. And that is hard, I mean, you know that is hard. We just have huge swaths of parents who are understandably super invested in their child doing well, so invested as if it's themselves that they can't make that separation. So it's a two-pronged approach.

Dr. Gail Saltz: 12:04

I would say you have to question yourself am I being sympathetic or am I being overly empathetic, literally standing in my child's shoes and can't separate? You want to aim for sympathetic. Can I advise my kid as in the fact that I'm wiser and older and have lived more of life and can bestow that kind of advice upon my child? I think your child never gets too old to have a discussion like that with you, but at a certain point, right if your child is like, well, I've decided for these reasons I'm doing it this way, whatever this way may be, or I just threw myself headlong into some really lousy choice, you can't own it, because if you own it you feel mad at them.

Dr. Gail Saltz: 12:54

And if you feel mad at them you can't be reasonably sympathetic. So you can say, oh gosh, that's really hard. You know I wouldn't, I wouldn't have done it that way, but I'm sorry that you're struggling with those ramifications now. I guess you know this will further inform, you know, future thoughts, decisions, whatever. But still be sympathetic and, like you know, if I can help you now, I would help you now. Not sure if you want that, not sure if you feel you need that, I'm here, I'm your parent.

Michele Folan: 13:28

How do we best handle the disappointment, though? Because you're at lunch with your friends and they're all talking about John's doing this, he's doing so wonderful, and, getting,Nancy's Nancy's Nancy's N N N N N N N

Michele Folan: 13:40

Nncy's getting ready to have a baby, blah, blah, blah, and then you're over there going. You know my child. It's just this constant disappointment. How do we overcome that?

Dr. Gail Saltz: 13:53

You know. So here in, you know it's pretty hard not to think of your child as a narcissistic extension of yourself, right, as part of your own ego, and um, and understandably, and um, and so the upside of that is that parents really enjoy being able to say look at what my product did, and that's understandable. I don't want to throw a harsh on people's pleasure, but um, but at the end of the day, our, our, our children, not our clones, and they don't belong to us in that sense and they aren't an extension of us. And we make mistakes and I think, boy, that's so important to be able to be honest with your children about Like you make mistakes, maybe they're different mistakes, they'll make different mistakes and I think that being more authentic has its own value.

Dr. Gail Saltz: 14:47

Your friends may or may not be being terribly authentic. I mean people like to talk about the good stuff. Nobody likes to talk about the bad stuff. You know they may not be sharing with you other private. You know unhappinesses because it's just not the way. You know it's not as pleasurable. Oh, this is so true. So you know, I think that first of all, you want to respect your child's privacy to a certain degree, right? So I think some things you frankly shouldn't be sharing with your friends, but also I think that being authentic makes you closer, often, with your friends.

Dr. Gail Saltz: 15:28

If you have friends that are judging you for having a child that is not performing at whatever level they think their child is performing, judging you negatively, then you know that's a limited friendship, right, that's you know. That's not the friend that's really in your corner, loves you for who you know. So you have to think about that as well. And then what matters to you, like being able to be authentic and be understanding and come to your own mindset that life doesn't turn out perfect for anyone. We could be talking about a million different realms.

Dr. Gail Saltz: 16:06

Right, it's making the best of the things that go well. It's shoring up and helping to manage the things that don't go well. It's managing the curve balls that come at you, because they will. And really your main goal is that you'd like your child to suffer less, no matter what their age is, and be proud of being the kind of parent who would do that, which does not mean joining them at the hip. You're having more struggles and that they're hard, but you're managing them, you're coping with them, you're helping yourself be resilient. You're helping a child be resilient. I feel good about that.

Michele Folan: 16:52

Yeah. And if dealing with, say, a substance abuse issue or actual mental illness and the child is not willing to address it, despite your efforts to get them, you once, help, yeah, then what do you do? Because it's so frustrating.

Dr. Gail Saltz: 17:12

So herein you know I'm often talking to parents of teenage children like this is your shot? Okay, your child's not 18 yet you can make them essentially right. Get help Once your child is 18, you really can't. And the system is respecting of our civil liberties. Things have to get pretty darn awful before a court will mandate that this must happen, which unfortunately means that parents' hands are tied. You all.

Dr. Gail Saltz: 17:48

Your best shot is maintaining trust in your relationship, and that means respecting that they may make certain decisions that you don't like and you can tell them you don't want them to do that they're harming themselves. It pains you to see them do this self-defeating act, and I mean in terms of mental illness too. Not getting care for mental illness is self-defeating act, and I mean in terms of mental illness too. Not getting care for mental illness is self-defeating. But you know, unfortunately their judgment, which may be impaired and probably is impaired in case of substance abuse and mental illness, may make that very, very difficult.

Dr. Gail Saltz: 18:30

You should avail yourself of all the information that's available, which is, you know, this is part of why I do what I do in my career in terms of everything from red flag laws, you know, removing a weapon from the home of somebody who's at risk, from the home of somebody who's at risk, emergency units that can be called whether that's the police or a better mental health emergency unit in the case of a crisis that can be called to do an evaluation, to do a check you can offer, you will help set up treatment.

Dr. Gail Saltz: 19:08

You will help find a person. You will help do the things that can be overwhelmingly hard to organize. When you are not doing well, you will go with them. You can do all those things. I have to be honest and tell you, unfortunately, beyond that there may not be anything that you can do and that means sometimes you see your child really fall harder and harder and I am incredibly sympathetic to parents. It is so painful and it is not your fault and yet you may not be able to. You know they may have to really, as a word, bottom out yeah, to start getting help.

Michele Folan: 19:52

Right and yeah, they have to want it. It's like with any I mean, if there's danger you have an avenue, Absolutely Okay.

Dr. Gail Saltz: 20:01

So asking your child, and I would ask them quite directly do they feel like killing themselves? Do they have a plan? Do they have the means? Those are questions that will not suggest them doing something. It can prevent them from doing something. It's really important to be able to ask that. It's important to be able to ask them if they're using drugs. It's be forthright. It doesn't mean that they will tell you, but be forthright and then you may have avenues of being able to help them.

Michele Folan: 20:36

You some up some great resources that those were very helpful. The idea for some parents to actually have that conversation about are you? Would you hurt yourself? Would you take that to the next level? Whatever, that conversation is super hard for some parents to have and I think part of it is they don't want to know or they're scared. They're scared to know.

Dr. Gail Saltz: 21:04

Certainly Some parents mistakenly think they're scared they're going to suggest such a thing, which is not true, and so I think you know it's just helping people understand that actually suicide is usually an impulsive act that has been thought about for quite some time, but impulsive in a moment it is. Often a person has a means around and that asking them is a way to prevent the attempt from happening. And you know, and making it clear to them that this means they have a treatable mental health condition. Yeah, in other words, you know they are so depressed that this is clinical depression. It is a biological process. It is treatable, you know, with medication and additionally, hopefully, psychotherapy, and you will help them find someone and they don't have to feel like this. They won't feel like this, you know. Give them a hopeful avenue, help them find that hopeful avenue. Most people that have thought about and then were even attempted but survived suicide are so relieved that they ended up on the other side and, you know, found a way to feel better.

Michele Folan: 22:29

Okay, I am going to shift gears just a little bit. What strategies are there to get the grown child to move out of the parent's home?

Dr. Gail Saltz: 22:43

Yeah, this is you know, this has become more complicated than just psychiatry, to be honest with you, because many people have fallen on very difficult economic times and it has, you know, become more common for kids to move back home because they are not earning enough to put any money away. You know and survive, and I think you know. First of all, obviously, it's important to teach children about money early, which many parents don't do, and so making your child financially savvy, should we say. You know what it takes, which they often don't really comprehend until it's kind of late in the game and they aren't laying the groundwork, you know, to have the kind of job that will support an independent life. So you know, really, in adolescent years, educating your child about what it will take, what you, what kind of budget you do have, you know, and because then they move home and they they're not thinking about what food costs, what electricity costs, what you know, all of these various right and um, and they couldn't make it Um. So it is the goal for them to be financially independent human beings, just as they would be independent in other ways too. If you are at home, if they are at home, you should be charging them, you know. You should be looking at what they're making taking, rent, taking, you know, contribution to food. You should be creating a structure that makes them responsible human beings, that doesn't make it easy for them to go blow it all in a bar at night, live in a, you know which is going to make you furious, as they're living at home and you know you enter this like terrible cycle of mutual anger. So you know, it's very much one thing if your child is in your home saving and contributing to the home so that they are making the goal to leave, and it's very much another child who feels like they're just in your view and problem in reality. Sort of freeloading and making it impossible for you to retire and, yeah, have saved your nest egg etc. Or have freedoms of certain sorts. So it it is.

Dr. Gail Saltz: 25:21

Um, you know it's frequent discussions of not shaming them but of putting together plans with goals that are about you know, because what's? The question you're asking me is usually asked by people who haven't talked with their kid about this at all. They're just like how the hell do we get you out right in their minds, right, but there's not been some ongoing productive discussion about a plan of how that will happen and it just makes a child feel rejected, which is not really what it's about, although it may ultimately become about that because you're feeling resentful. So it's sort of our mission, right, as parents, was to help you to become an independently functioning adult who could live independently, choose to have a partner or not, choose to have children or not, support a family or not, but independently. And you're not there yet. So this is a goal, this is a mission, not like I hate having you here.

Michele Folan: 26:24

Right and it's not too late to empower the child. And I do understand that sometimes, you know, kids fall on hard times and maybe they're still on the family health plan God forbid still on the family cell phone plan. You know a lot of things have changed.

Dr. Gail Saltz: 26:43

A lot of things have changed since you're generating, you sort of say, well, I did X, why can't you do it too? Some, yeah, have changed. You know, health insurance is not what health insurance costs when you started getting health insurance and and, frankly, depending on the kind of employment we're talking about, lots of areas don't make relative to, you know, inflation and home ownership what it was. So that is why this phenomenon is so much more common. But also the expectation of what it means to be an adult. There's been a lot of blurring. You know, adulthood has been very delayed by college, by, you know, so early, so early twenties, which you know, decades ago was like you are an adult, done is has a big blur line now, and so I think all of these things have contributed to sort of the delayed launch.

Dr. Gail Saltz: 27:45

But if there is a problem psychologically with your child launching, they feel afraid, they feel ill-equipped, they feel they haven't got what it takes, they feel overly attached to you and your protective cocoon, et cetera Therapy can be really helpful. Why is that going on? What are the messages they're telling themselves that they haven't got it? Are you contributing to that at on? What are the messages they're telling themselves that they haven't got it. Are you contributing to that at all? Are you in any way not giving them the message? They so can do it. They are so equipped. They so have the tools and the abilities to do this on their own. That's important as well.

Michele Folan: 28:30

Oh, I love, I'm loving this topic and I like what you're saying here. I know quite a few people who really resent the way they were parented, and they're my age and they still talk about how much they just not hate their parents, but resent their parents. How can a parent in that situation move forward with their adult child to get past that?

Dr. Gail Saltz: 29:00

You mean the parent who is resented? Yes, Uh-huh. So I think, as I said, every parent makes certain kinds of mistakes vis-a-vis that child, or they weren't objective mistakes, but they are not good memories for that child, no matter how old they are. And I think that, unfortunately, parents usually get caught up in justifying and feeling defensive, feeling hurt and angry every time or any time their child points out what they consider to have been the terrible injustice. And I think that it's really helpful to be able to say some form of to your child I recognize I am not a perfect person and therefore I could not have been. Nor do I really believe many people are perfect parents. I tried my best, you know I really I tried my best. I loved you deeply, I really tried to do the best that I could.

Dr. Gail Saltz: 30:13

And that doesn't mean that it was perfect or great, and every you know I of course I'm sorry for anything that hurt you, and I think it's hard for parents to say that and you know I'm sorry for things that hurt you Doesn't mean you were a bad like ike you know, and you did a bad job and you were cool or something. You know that you don't feel, but it means acknowledging and understanding and feeling, letting your child feel heard that some things remain somewhat painful for them. But then I think it's k to tell your child ruminating over this or holding you today responsible now kthat way trying to punish you over and over again for something that you can't go back in time and change. You can only acknowledge and be sorry if they hurt them because that's not what you wanted and that you really. You know, try to do your best that the continued rumination, punishment, is only making it hard for you to have a current, better relationship, and you'd love that. You'd love to try to have as good a relationship as you can have. And so you're not sure what they hope to gain by that.

Dr. Gail Saltz: 31:34

If they feel like they can't stop cycling it in their mind, maybe therapy would be helpful for them. That would be understandable to you, but and parents would she's ever say that it would be like you have to go to therapy over something I did as a parent Like how insulting you know, like no. So I'm really trying to talk about a mix of being not defensive and understanding and at the same time saying but just beating me with it over and over again is just harming us today. Yeah, so know that I'm sorry, Know that I can't go back in time and change something, or I would Know that I love you and I want us to have a better relationship. So I'm acknowledging certain things, but from your side, please understand that repeating and repeating you did this or you know is causing is not repairing anything. I've already said I'm sorry. I hope that you can forgive. I know you won't forget, but I hope that you can forgive and we could try to move forward with a healthier relationship.

Michele Folan: 32:53

You know that question actually came from a listener and I think you know, according to her, she said she has offered for them to go to therapy together, Child's like no, because it's not my problem, this is your problem, kind of a thing. So I think so if something is currently going on.

Dr. Gail Saltz: 33:11

So sometimes a child is trying to tell a parent and it's still happening and a parent won't hear it. Saying we should go to therapy together isn't a terrible idea, but saying look at this juncture, give me examples of the dynamic that you're finding ongoingly difficult. Because I'm willing to make change, I'm willing to try to make change, but I don't, you know. To try to make change, but I don't, you know. I need to understand what did I say today that hurt you, that you feel like has been the thing I think you know. You need that information.

Dr. Gail Saltz: 33:50

You have to be willing to have the information to be able to make and you know what's really helpful is that, if a child says it, there is something called mirroring conversations that are very helpful, where you sit together, one of you says something, the other says what I think I heard you say is, and then you say what you think you heard them say. Then the other person gets a chance to say well, not exactly, it was more like this and this and this, so that you really are communicating, you're empathizing, you're showing, you're listening to each other, you're understanding and you can make some changes in a healthy way. It's hard. You have to be willing to listen and accept that someone might be telling you something that feels like their truth. It doesn't feel exactly like your truth.

Michele Folan: 34:47

You have to be willing to take that in. Yeah, it's, it's. It's making yourself a little vulnerable, right, you're definitely making yourself vulnerable. Yeah, you got to take that, that wall down.

Dr. Gail Saltz: 34:53

And you know parents, parents, you know it's hard, right, when you were a parent of a little kid. You're not vulnerable at all like you're then. You know you're the chief, you're the, you know you, you are the king, you say it goes, you know it's adult.

Dr. Gail Saltz: 35:14

Adult relationships can't be like that right, and it can be really hard to realize that you, you have to be willing to be vulnerable, you have to be willing to accept certain things, make certain changes.

Dr. Gail Saltz: 35:23

There may be limits to the relationship, to how close you can be. So if a parent, for example, of an adult child, is truly being toxic I mean, you know, is constantly critical, critical of the spouse, critical of the grandkids, does things the parent asks them not to do with their children, is destructive, verbally abusive, has been asked to stop doing that, pointing out what they're doing that is painful and not working, this is how estrangement happens and I would go a long, long road of trying to repair before I ever would recommend estrangement. But I will tell you there are definitely certain circumstances in which a child needs to separate from a parent, yeah, and it's painful. But if a parent is truly destructive to that child in an ongoing way, despite it being pointed out and being asked to make a change, they are unwilling, they cannot, they do not. Sometimes there's mental illness involved or there's serious characterologic problems involved. Sometimes there's substance abuse of a parent involved.

Michele Folan: 36:48

If a parent is taking your money, taking your self-esteem, then sometimes a child has to be estranged, and I appreciate you addressing the flip side of that, because there is two sides to every story. And I do have this question, and this came from a listener how do you handle a child's disapproval of you? Your adult child is flat out rude and disrespectful to you, rolls their eyes at you even as an adult, and they treat you like dirt. Is there some kind of childhood trauma or mental health issue to blame? What do you typically see in your practice?

Dr. Gail Saltz: 37:35

An angry, an angry child who has not and could there be mental illness involved? There could be, but not necessarily. Um, it could be that your child is very, you know, doesn't even know what they're angry about anymore, right, but they are angry. Uh, they blame you for whatever it may be, blame you for whatever it may be, and it is helpful to try to say look, I find that you say this rude thing to me, don't pull out everything of the past. Okay, when you discuss this kind of thing, the baby in the bath water is not helpful. It's more helpful to be in the moment. They're over. It happens.

Dr. Gail Saltz: 38:23

You say look, you seem really angry. You just said to me this rude thing. It's not the first time, it's the way that it is often. Or you rolled your eyes. It makes me feel.

Dr. Gail Saltz: 38:39

Feel, instead of saying you're a jerk, you're a rude person, you're a bad person, you, you, you say it makes me feel. I feel dismissed, hurt, you know, whatever are the feelings that you're saying? Really, it makes me feel that you certainly don't care about me, but also that you want me to feel. I'm feeling so incredibly hurt by this and I don't want to continue it, but I'm left to assume that you are very angry at me or angry about something. Can we talk about what is it? You know, if I own something, I would like to understand what that is. I mean, your child might not be able to and you don't have to do it at this moment, but could you think about it and could we meet up and could you, you know, think about what is making you feel like calling me an ex, or could you think about what it is? Let me know if there's something that we can, you know, try to resolve, try to understand.

Dr. Gail Saltz: 39:50

But I think I have also. I want to be treated as a human being. Also, I'm not asking to be treated better than you would want to be treated, but I'm pretty sure that if I said those things to you or you know, rolled my eyes at you, that you would feel the same way and wouldn't want that. So I'm. I'm asking for just reasonable self-respect. If you get into the whole like I'm your father or I'm your mother and you will respect you, know you you've lost the content. We know that never works and it doesn't work and um, but if you just say I'm just, I'm a human being who loves you and cares deeply for you, and this really really is hurting me, um, and and so I just you know, I want to understand, I want to see if we can change this. I want to understand if there's something I don't know about that's driving your feeling that I can work on, but I need you to know that it really hurts me.

Michele Folan: 40:55

You said some great things in there that I guarantee you. I have listeners that are writing this down as you are saying that, because we all look for those words to try to so that we don't just sound eloquent but that we're effective in what we're trying to communicate.

Dr. Gail Saltz: 41:14

It's always, as soon as you say you, the other person's on the defensive right. You've confused me of something. If you say I feel it's not creating that defensive posture, but it's still communicating the information that you know what, what is happening in that dynamic that is so problematic? Oh, that's fine. You know, I don't think a parent should just roll over and be treated badly and in fact, I think that you're allowing the potential for a child to do that to other people in their life, which is not good. You don't have good relationships when that's how you treat people.

Dr. Gail Saltz: 41:55

You and to some degree, saying like I don't, I don't think this is good for either of us. Saying like I don't, I don't think this is good for either of us. You know I, I, I like you know anybody you would talk to this way would be hurt and feel terrible and not want to be around you. So I think you know it's not a good model for them. But also, like you, have a right as a parent to not accept that kind of behavior. If your child keeps coming and doing that, you can say you know what, I think that you should go now. Yeah, you know I love you, but that just hurt me deeply and I think that you know we should not stay together for this visit.

Michele Folan: 42:34

Right and because I agree with you. I think if a child is that like ungrateful and moody with a parent, they may be doing that in other aspects of their life, to other people, and if they are so moody, as you said, then it may be there is a mental health thing going on.

Dr. Gail Saltz: 42:55

I will tell you, particularly in men, depression is often not diagnosed and the person doesn't know that they have it, because it presents as irritability and anger, much more so than women. Women can have that too, but men even more so. So if this is a change, you know, if your son wasn't like this and now he's being like this, then I would be concerned about a mental health issue, substance abuse or something else going on in his life, or clinical depression.

Dr. Gail Saltz: 43:31

So the question is has it always been like this, or is this a change?

Michele Folan: 43:35

There are a lot of mothers out there, obviously, who are dealing with a difficult child on a daily basis. You've seen it in your own practice. How do they stay supportive of the child while still maintaining some boundaries and some self-care?

Dr. Gail Saltz: 43:54

It's just that it is, as I said, it's not being so overly identified that you can't have yourself if your child's not happy. You know that that is not healthy. Um, so it is contributing to you know, to to trying to be helpful, but not in your mind all day long, every day. Um, so it is. You know, I have a thought, I have an idea. I think this is something could be helpful. I'm going to share it with you and then you know, I know that you have the ability to do this, do this, do these things, help yourself. I want you to. I'm here if you would like me to do something, be with you, talk with you and then, when you hang up, you need to continue to build and have your sources of pleasure in life, your plans for your future, your other relationships. You need to have those things.

Michele Folan: 45:00

Yeah, I so agree with you. And, on that note, what is one of your own pillars of self-care? What's something that you try to practice often for yourself?

Dr. Gail Saltz: 45:11

Well, I will say, you know, being a practitioner doesn't make you a perfect parent either and doesn't make you not have these struggles at all either. So I'm sympathetic on a personal level as well. So I do try to think about you know not, you know not being so, you know, consumed, even though you know as much as I have loved my career, you know parenting was, definitely, has been, the greatest joy, you know, in many ways in my life, which means you have a lot of suffering too. So, uh, I do, I do think about these things, um, I do. I think it's important, you know I have good women, friends. I work, you know, to maintain those, you know, not a plethora, but like important, close ones that are really intimate and vulnerable and where you know trust has been built and so on. That that is important, I think.

Dr. Gail Saltz: 46:12

I think a lot about, you know, maintaining I have a 36 year old marriage, have a 36 year old marriage, um, and I think about maintaining that I, we, do fun things.

Dr. Gail Saltz: 46:29

You know that that that is big self-care for me. You know, saturday night dinner out, you know, planning a fun vacation, playing, playing with my partner is to me, um, I think to a lot of people an important aspect of self-care, to have playtime. Yeah, and you know, I allow myself to continue indulging great curiosities in whatever format that you know exploring, because I am a very curious person, a very curious person. So reading something I'm curious about, watching something I'm curious about, immersing myself in some content I find to be cool, is important to me. And I mean, you know, I'm not like a gym lady by any stretch, but I do think exercise is important for mental health and I do, you know, walking a lot, running, or you know I do weightlifting, um, you know, I think, uh, mentally it's important as well as physically, um, so have your, have your play things that you invest in, um is is a good way, I think, to to keep some, some sort of balance.

Michele Folan: 47:43

Thank you for all that, because it really supports what I do in my health coaching. So thank you for that. Dr Gail Saltz, where can our listeners find you and also your books?

Dr. Gail Saltz: 47:54

Oh, great. Well, I am on Twitter at DrGailSaltzDR, I am at Instagram at DrGailSaltz. I have a website at DrGailSalts DR. I am at Instagram at DrGailSalts, I have a website at DrGailSaltscom. And there is the podcast. How Can I Help with iHeartMedia? That is available at Apple, spotify and every place you get your podcasts. And the last book, the Power of Different, a Link Between Disorder and Genius, which I referred to early on, is available everywhere you get your books, sort of mental health, difference or learning, disability and educators. I think it's very helpful to understand that, even though you definitely can suffer mightily with these things don't want to minimize that and it is really important to get treatment so that you can suffer less. There are potential strengths that are more than the general population and it's really important to know what those are and to try to play to those strengths, or encourage your child to play to those strengths for self-esteem and a successful life. So, yeah, I think it's just of those populations.

Michele Folan: 49:16

Dr Gail Saltz. This was very enlightening. This was very enlightening and I am so happy that we were able to connect and really discuss this meaty topic. Thanks so much for having me. Thank you, I am so grateful for the ratings and reviews from our listeners. Did you know that your reviews help other people find Asking for a Friend? If you like what you hear, won't you please leave a review on Spotify or Apple? Thank you from the bottom of my heart.